Breakthrough infections

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I think that is a wholly unnecessary tragedy, and personally I probably would not apply somewhere like that nor would choose to shop there unless there are literally no other options (assuming its a retail business), but thats your choice.

I feel certain that the tragedy of the intentional fear mongering that you have been subjected to and that produces decisions like this will not fully understood for years.

Its like reliving the AIDS/HIV crisis all over again, and maybe worse as we should have learned that lesson. Its so disheartening to see this again. Maybe its just human nature to harbor such fear and practice such discrimination,,,

We would never discriminate against a person with HIV. As John pointed out, HIV does not present risk to other employees. (you seem to be a few decades behind here)

About 90% of our team loved the vaccine requirement immediately. The rest got on board a week later. We're a science-based company, so people follow the data and recognize that they will be a safer at work and the company will be at less risk of a covid-related shut down. Overall, a morale-booster for us

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

We're a science-based company, so people follow the data and recognize that they will be a safer at work and the company will be at less risk of a covid-related shut down.

For a number of reasons I cannot disclose where I work, but my organization is a pioneer that has created the science and generated the safety data that impacts literally millions of people every day, and our science and data and most importantly our guidance is literally used all over the world.

I am blessed to be surrounded by people solving problems at all corners of the planet and working with governments in countless countries.

Since the beginning of this mess I have constantly been inundated with coworkers concerned about this matter with varying perspectives.

Most interesting to me is the number of people who have recently come forward to say "I am vaccinated, but do not want to share my medical status with anyone, its no ones business". And also the people who are saying "I have reviewed this matter and I am convinced I dont want the vaccine at this time, its not the right choice for me".

And these folks are as educated and experienced as anyone in their field.

I was most impressed to recently be at a military base when a high raking official asked my coworker if another person we work with was still the expert on a particular matter they were experiencing. For a moment I was genuinely awestruck.

Clearly this is a very polarizing matter, and after countless months of seeing the impact and personally suffering both the virus and its continuing lingering effects, which may well force me into early retirement, I am of a mind that we still need to respect individual choice above all else. Even given the state of COVID in the US. I cannot in good faith support mandatory/forced vaccination, and disparate treatment of people who choose not to be vaccinated. I do not fear anyone that is unvaccinated.

Like at any time before COVID I do try to avoid anyone who is clearly sick, but thats just common sense. But avoiding the unvaccinated simply because they are unvaccinated and based on what we now know seems, well to be frank, ignorant. Much like the ignorance we saw with HIV/AIDS, Autism, Downs and so many other matters over the years. Hopefully in time this will all come to pass.

Sorry if your opinion is different, I guess thats just life.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Most interesting to me is the number of people who have recently come forward to say "I am vaccinated, but do not want to share my medical status with anyone, its no ones business". And also the people who are saying "I have reviewed this matter and I am convinced I dont want the vaccine at this time, its not the right choice for me".

Of course, all of theses people have already shared their status on numerous other vaccines numerous times since they were kids--without complaint. Perhaps some even appreciated free flu shots at work.

But that was before politics interfered....

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Of course, all of theses people have already shared their status on numerous other vaccines numerous times since they were kids--without complaint. Perhaps some even appreciated free flu shots at work.

But that was before politics interfered....

Well actually no, their medical data was shared without their consent by their parents in order to get them into public schools, certainly not by choice or voluntarily.

Personally I have not been asked for any vaccination record in my entire adult life.

As for free flu shots, some yes, some never. Oh and remember NOTHING is free, you pay one way or another.

And speaking of paying,,, I was surprised to see "some" of the numbers regarding the cost of the COVID vaccine development, which it is almost incalculable to get the actual total cost of the entire effort. Literally. The actual total cost is not ever going to be available to the public due to how it was created.

But if you could calculate the cost of each life it potentially saved, most could not afford the bill.

Hopefully that changes in the future as well.

[John Mercier]

Republicans argued that the medical consent was a parental right.
And yes, the parents could have chosen not to send them to a public school or private school that required vaccination - so there has always been a choice.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Republicans argued that the medical consent was a parental right.
And yes, the parents could have chosen not to send them to a public school or private school that required vaccination - so there has always been a choice.

I dont personally care if the pope argued it, I am a very independent voter and not aligned with any party because that all have serious problems in my opinion.

As for that being a choice, well not for the people it impacted. Once we become adults we dont get the data back. And before PII laws that data was too often shared very freely.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Well actually no, their medical data was shared without their consent by their parents in order to get them into public schools, certainly not by choice or voluntarily.

A distinction without a difference. I'm guessing you do not have kids.

Virtually everybody in the US has been sharing vax data for generations. This data is often shared voluntarily for trivial things, such as when parents send their children to summer camp. Maybe none of these people complaining to you have kids or maybe they're just hypocrites?

On the flu vaccines--thousands of employers all over the country give flu vaccines to all employees who would like them. Obviously this creates a semi-public awareness of who is and is not vaxxed at work. Maybe none of these complainers have ever gone to a free pop-up flu clinic?

Neither of these things has ever been a big deal, until people decided to use covid vax as a political issue

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

A distinction without a difference. I'm guessing you do not have kids.

Virtually everybody in the US has been sharing vax data for generations. This data is often shared voluntarily for trivial things, such as when parents send their children to summer camp. Maybe none of these people complaining to you have kids or maybe they're just hypocrites?

On the flu vaccines--thousands of employers all over the country give flu vaccines to all employees who would like them. Obviously this creates a semi-public awareness of who is and is not vaxxed at work. Maybe none of these complainers have ever gone to a free pop-up flu clinic?

Neither of these things has ever been a big deal, until people decided to use covid vax as a political issue

I actually have 2 school age kids and I do not support any vaccination mandate or mask requirements for their teachers or school staff or doctors or anyone else they com into contact with. My kids are vaccinated and we are not concerned about anyone else infecting them.

As for the people at work raising the most concern about the mandates, most do have children, not 100%, but most.

They just have seen the wrong side of government control and do not support medical mandates.

Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates. Why is that so hard to believe, because it is not your preference.

You can disagree with them, no problem, but why the hostile responses,,, Its troubling to see such volatile responses to differing opinions and such a strong desire to force your preferences on others about what they must do with their bodies.

Its kinda frighting to see people demanding other people take medications they are not comfortable with.

[John Mercier]

So everyone that does except medical mandates is not highly educated or reasonable?

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

So everyone that does except medical mandates is not highly educated or reasonable?

Again no idea what you are saying or think you are reading, its as if you simply want to spit and snarl and be a spoiler and I guess thats your right.

I also dont believe in censorship, so I guess if it makes you feel better to constantly attack, so be it.

It seems like a tough life to be miserable all the time,but if it works for you enjoy.

ATB

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I actually have 2 school age kids and I do not support any vaccination mandate or mask requirements for their teachers or school staff or doctors or anyone else they com into contact with. My kids are vaccinated and we are not concerned about anyone else infecting them.

As for the people at work raising the most concern about the mandates, most do have children, not 100%, but most.

They just have seen the wrong side of government control and do not support medical mandates.

Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates. Why is that so hard to believe, because it is not your preference.

You can disagree with them, no problem, but why the hostile responses,,, Its troubling to see such volatile responses to differing opinions and such a strong desire to force your preferences on others about what they must do with their bodies.

Its kinda frighting to see people demanding other people take medications they are not comfortable with.

It disturbs me that you seem to be denying reality repeatedly.

With respect to forcing people to get vaccines and share their vaccine status with schools, camps, etc--I support the vaccine policy that we have had in America for decades. It appears from this most recent post--you and your kids all have plenty of vaccines and have been sharing that info--that you have also been supporting this policy for your entire life...

...until now!

[gravy boat]

https://off-guardian.org/2021/09/22/...vid-cribsheet/

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by gravy boat

https://off-guardian.org/2021/09/22/...vid-cribsheet/

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/offguardian/


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/offguardian/


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Thanks, gillygirl, I had not seen either site before. One thing about the Media Fact Check site I really like is that when they criticize Off Guardian, they back it up with facts and links. We can all go back and look at previous Off Guardian posts and decide whether they are a good source or just trolls. My favorite example is the Off Guardian article asserting that no one has died from covid

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I am of a mind that we still need to respect individual choice above all else.

Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.

And yet, there are thousands of ways that you do not have personal freedom because you've chosen to live in human society, rather than out in the woods or on an island, far from people and having zero need for others. There are thousands of limitations on your freedom, and clearly you accept these limits because you want the benefits of living in human society.

Thus your statement that "we still need to respect individual choice above all else" is incongruous with the way you actually live your life. If you really prioritized your freedom above all else, you would be living in a place where there were no limits on your freedom. Such places do exist, but you don't choose to live there because in fact you have other priorities that are greater than your desire for freedom!

One of the limits on freedom if you choose to live in society is that you can't do things that harm or could harm other people, like walking around unvaccinated or without a mask. Why? Because other people's right to live and to not become gravely ill because of you is saccrosanct.

It is possible to weigh one person's needs against another's and to decide which needs carry greater weight. (Courts do this all the time.) One person's need to stay alive and not become gravely ill does indeed outweigh another person's desire to walk around unvaccinated and unmasked. You cannot rationally deny the magnitude of 670,000 Covid deaths in the US. That outcome and preventing more unnecessary deaths vastly outweighs individual desire to not get vaccinated or wear a mask.

Individual freedom can never be absolute. If we were all 100% free all the time, social chaos would result. Social maturity means accepting limits on personal freedom, especially the prohibition on harming others.

The saddest thing about your belief that personal freedom is more important than anything else is that it lets you have the benefits of living in society but it doesn't protect society---the people who provide you with those benefits---from your harmful choices. That's just selfish, and socially immature.

You need me. (My taxes contribute to the pool of wealth that ensures most of the things you need and enjoy in life.) How does your need for freedom outweigh my need to live?

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.

No you have it totally backwards!

I prioritize the persons right to make decision about medical treatment concerning their body over MY preference to tell them anything they MUST do.

And I believe that is the standard that should apply to all.

I do not understand how I possibly tell you you must stop; smoking, drinking alcohol, must keep your weight under a certain level or even take a vaccine to protect me!

I cannot do that, you are entitled to make your decisions about whats best for you concerning your medical treatment.

Its the same for something like crime and gun control, should I ba able to demand that you carry a gun to protect yourself AND me because we all know the police cannot be everywhere all the time, but violent crime CAN happen anywhere and at any time. And clearly the answer is no, I cannot force you to carry a gun to protect yourself AND me. Its unthinkable, and is a vaccination mandate.

Sorry I dont know how to be more clear than that.

If you disagree so be it. Then will you also be demanding I carry a gun to protect you, because I will also oppose that, and I fully support anyones right to carry as THEY so choose, but not by mandate.

ATB

[John Mercier]

That only counts should your medical decision not be able to harm others.

You would need to complete isolate yourself, or provide that the other parties knowing the risk can avoid you.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

That only counts should your medical decision not be able to harm others.

You would need to complete isolate yourself, or provide that the other parties knowing the risk can avoid you.

Hummm,,, Let me try this another way.

I do not not support ANY requirement that my children's doctors or teachers be required to wear masks or get vaccinated. The choice to wear a mask or get vaccinated should be theirs, as well to not continue teaching or even requesting to be a telework/remote teacher.

Clearly some will come down on the absolute opposite side of this and thus why we have such polarization on this matter.

Sadly it cannot be a civil discussion, and anger and hostility and intolerance than becomes the standard by which we interact on any such controversial matter. Vacant is any measure of respect for a differing opinion. And I make NO claim that I am immune to this distasteful new standard.

[John Mercier]

I didn't state teachers.

You stated that I should not be able to discriminate against the unvaccinated, you suggest that I do not have the right to protect myself against those that may endanger me or my family.

Either we can isolate from others - aka ''discriminate'' - or we cannot.

Teachers are only a small subset of the working population.

If I have the option to only remote work with customers, is that discriminating against customers that have been fully vaccinate/are wearing a mask because they do not have personal interaction that they may prefer?

If I didn't have the option to remote work, do I lose my option to protect myself... and succumb to someone else's choice?

It isn't are complex issue. If you truly believe that each individual has the option not to interact directly... then you have to agree that those that cannot prove vaccination/wear a mask will be discriminated against per the consequences of their own choice.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I didn't state teachers.

You stated that I should not be able to discriminate against the unvaccinated, you suggest that I do not have the right to protect myself against those that may endanger me or my family.

Either we can isolate from others - aka ''discriminate'' - or we cannot.

Teachers are only a small subset of the working population.

If I have the option to only remote work with customers, is that discriminating against customers that have been fully vaccinate/are wearing a mask because they do not have personal interaction that they may prefer?

If I didn't have the option to remote work, do I lose my option to protect myself... and succumb to someone else's choice?

It isn't are complex issue. If you truly believe that each individual has the option not to interact directly... then you have to agree that those that cannot prove vaccination/wear a mask will be discriminated against per the consequences of their own choice.

Sorry I have tried reading this several times and to me its totally incoherent and a rambling mish/mash of stuff.

We will simply have to agree to disagree as at this point I have no idea what you are arguing or trying to say.

Sorry,,,

[John Mercier]

It is not a mish/mash.

Your only looking at it from your point of view.

Your point of view is that anyone should have the choice to vaccinate, but no one should have the choice to isolate themselves from those that made the choice not to vaccinate.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

It is not a mish/mash.

Your only looking at it from your point of view.

Your point of view is that anyone should have the choice to vaccinate, but no one should have the choice to isolate themselves from those that made the choice not to vaccinate.

Again no idea what you are saying, you certainly do have the choice to isolate youself.

With very few exceptions, you are not required to live around people go to any public place talk to or see anyone. Plenty of people are not circulating with the public.

You can build a plastic bubble, wear a space suit, etc.

Sorry this is not making any sense to me,,,

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Again no idea what you are saying, you certainly do have the choice to isolate youself.

With very few exceptions, you are not required to live around people go to any public place talk to or see anyone. Plenty of people are not circulating with the public.

You can build a plastic bubble, wear a space suit, etc.

Sorry this is not making any sense to me,,,

But you directly stated that I should not discriminate against those that have not been vaccinated.
How do I isolate myself from them, without discriminating them?

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

But you directly stated that I should not discriminate against those that have not been vaccinated.
How do I isolate myself from them, without discriminating them?

Again, its like double talk gibberish,,,

How do you isolate???

You build a cabin house outside of town and avoid people.

You build a plastic bubble in your current home.

You wear a space suit.

You move to the tundra.

You have countless choices, what is the point of this banter???

So much hostility, stress is going to kill you long before COVID.

[John Mercier]

I isolate myself by not doing business interacting with those that have chosen to be unvaccinated.

''Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates.''

So anyone that accepts medical mandates are not highly educated or reasonable.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I isolate myself by not doing business interacting with those that have chosen to be unvaccinated.

''Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates.''

So anyone that accepts medical mandates are not highly educated or reasonable.

Sorry I cannot feed this insanity any more, please dont bother replying to me on this matter.

If you cannot stop yourself I will apologize now for ignoring you, its not reasonable to keep this going. Its wholly dysfunctional and well past the point of anything productive coming out of it.

I have no issues with differing opinions, but your are just playing games with a very serious matter. This is real life and you are just talking nonsense.

I wish you a good retirement and hope you can find some comfort not being subjected to the unvaccinated people until this is no longer a matter of concern to you.

ATB

[John Mercier]

No. I used your own words.

[XCR-700]

I really hate using tools like the ignore list,,,

But sometimes its better. (for everyone)

Ignore List

FlyingScot
John Mercier
SailinAway

On a positive note, NH COVID deaths 7 day avg holding steady at 2.

[John Mercier]

A month ago it was zero.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

No you have it totally backwards! I prioritize the persons right to make decision about medical treatment concerning their body over MY preference to tell them anything they MUST do.

You're saying the same thing I said, in different words. You're saying that individual freedoms (the freedom to not get vaccinated) are more important than mandating public health measures for the good of all of society. I strongly disagree.

Originally Posted by XCR-700

People come to America and fight for the most basic and fundamental rights known to man.

The three inalienable rights listed in the Declaration of Independence are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. A person's liberty to carry a lethal disease in his body and expose me to it does not supersede my right to life.

I'm stunned at your minimization of 670,000 deaths to Covid. The nation was traumatized when 3,000 people died on 9/11 but 670,000 deaths is a small number??

Originally Posted by XCR-700

With very few exceptions, you are not required to live around people go to any public place talk to or see anyone. Plenty of people are not circulating with the public.

The basic necessities of life, especially food and medical care, do require going to a public place. I don't go to restaurants, concerts, or other optional places. Again, one person's desire to not get vaccinated does not supersede my right to obtain basic necessities of life.

You're going to answer that I can order groceries to be delivered to my house. My reply is the same: one person's desire to not get vaccinated does not supersede my right to avoid the added expense and risk of someone else choosing my food for me.

For medical care, in-person care is sometimes or often the only option.

What you're not acknowledging is that often people's reasons for wanting to avoid getting vaccinated are trivial or based on pure ignorance. Those unfounded reasons need to be balanced against other people's right to live and to have a normal life, like being able to go to the grocery story and doctor.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.

And yet, there are thousands of ways that you do not have personal freedom because you've chosen to live in human society, rather than out in the woods or on an island, far from people and having zero need for others. There are thousands of limitations on your freedom, and clearly you accept these limits because you want the benefits of living in human society.

Thus your statement that "we still need to respect individual choice above all else" is incongruous with the way you actually live your life. If you really prioritized your freedom above all else, you would be living in a place where there were no limits on your freedom. Such places do exist, but you don't choose to live there because in fact you have other priorities that are greater than your desire for freedom!

One of the limits on freedom if you choose to live in society is that you can't do things that harm or could harm other people, like walking around unvaccinated or without a mask. Why? Because other people's right to live and to not become gravely ill because of you is saccrosanct.

It is possible to weigh one person's needs against another's and to decide which needs carry greater weight. (Courts do this all the time.) One person's need to stay alive and not become gravely ill does indeed outweigh another person's desire to walk around unvaccinated and unmasked. You cannot rationally deny the magnitude of 670,000 Covid deaths in the US. That outcome and preventing more unnecessary deaths vastly outweighs individual desire to not get vaccinated or wear a mask.

Individual freedom can never be absolute. If we were all 100% free all the time, social chaos would result. Social maturity means accepting limits on personal freedom, especially the prohibition on harming others.

The saddest thing about your belief that personal freedom is more important than anything else is that it lets you have the benefits of living in society but it doesn't protect society---the people who provide you with those benefits---from your harmful choices. That's just selfish, and socially immature.

You need me. (My taxes contribute to the pool of wealth that ensures most of the things you need and enjoy in life.) How does your need for freedom outweigh my need to live?

I just took a breath and went back and reread your post to see if I am missing something and I must say no; I actually and honestly fundamentally disagree with you on most of what you are saying WITH REGARD TO MANDATORY VACCINATION.

The lack of personal choices in many other matters are things that need to be discussed on an issue by issue bases, and cannot be lumped together under the umbrella of the universal cannot argue needs of a society. Thats is the text book example of totalitarian rule when you cannot challenge the government or even the common mind position, it is communism.

People come to America and fight for the most basic and fundamental rights known to man, they choice to have medical and religious and other freedoms. Freedoms like the right to access to birth control, the right to access abortion, the right to life and to choose to die with dignity. They do not come to America to be told to stand in line and be forced to get vaccinated, and one look at the current southern border situation will show you we are NOT requiring these immigrants to get the vaccine we are requiring our own citizens to get! How does that work,,,

As for your magnitude issue; first off everyone knows the numbers are a disaster. I have no idea how far off they are, but they are not accurate representations of reasonably healthy people who in fact died from COVID. They may have been infected with COVID when they died, but not all of them actually died because of COVID. ANd that is a VERY important fact. And if we did use your numbers, what percentage of the population would this be??? Maybe .2 or .3 % depending on the numbers you use. Does that genuinely warrant mandatory anything? Not in my world. Not especially when you already had a 60% vaccination rate AND countless % natural immunity.

This is not about me, it is about you and me and the other guy imposing our medical requirements on others. That is NOT acceptable unless you have some far greater apocalyptic event that is raging out of control and there are no other options. Otherwise respect for peoples personal medical choice and freedoms comes above you worrying about having 100% protection, which as you said there is no such thing.

By getting the vaccine and wearing masks AND forcing others to do the same, you believe you will have full protection, when there will always be breakthroughs and mutations and future infections. You cannot stop this, you cannot win, there is no cure. You will only slow the spread.

So when your desire to get yourself maximum protection forces others to do something they are not in agreement with, not comfortable with, and may not be good for them, you are the one who is trumping the other persons rights, not the other way around, You have this twisted backwards.

If you live is such fear, you can remove yourself from this and isolate, but it is not your right to demand others do what you want them to regarding their medical treatment. It is fundamentally wrong.

Clearly we will not come to agreement on this, and I personally lose no sleep over it. I hope you find your peace with all this.