Power Outage History

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

As mentioned, if electricty goes out so does internet most times. So getting a generator may not solve any internet issues.

Not true. Internet is separate, and my experience with power outages in the Lakes region is just the opposite -- the internet has always remained on. You'll need the generator for the modem and router, of course -- but not for the internet signal itself.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by This'nThat

Not true. Internet is separate, and my experience with power outages in the Lakes region is just the opposite -- the internet has always remained on. You'll need the generator for the modem and router, of course -- but not for the internet signal itself.

OK.

Here are the main types of interent connections:

1. Dial up

2. Broadband

3. DSL

4. Satellite

So yes, some will work and some will not work in a power outage.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

OK.

Here are the main types of interent connections:

1. Dial up

2. Broadband

3. DSL

4. Satellite

So yes, some will work and some will not work in a power outage.

You're confusing people. Your original statement implied that a generator wouldn't help a person restore their internet connection. And that's simply not true. A person's internet signal is not tied to their house's electricity. It's separate, and is not linked to a general power outage. Therefore, if you can restore your electricity [to run the devices you need to connect to the internet], you can get back onto the internet.

[tis]

You know, Cate, after this long discussion, I have to say I don't believe power outages are that big of a deal in the Lakes Region-at least on the east side of the lake. Overall, we seldom lose our power and when we do, it is usually back on in less than an hour. The longest time I ever remember a long outage was the ice storm. So if I were moving here, it would be a minor concern for me. (Watch, after I said this we will get a major outage!)

[lawn psycho]

Go outside and look at the wires near your house. The top wires carry the power. As you go down you will see smaller wires. Depending on where you live there may be different sets but the lower wires are your phone, fiber optic lines, cable, etc.

A lot of times you can lose power as a tree limb that touches the wires and pulls on it and they are set to trip the after 2-3 surges. The lower lines stay connected so if you power your house up with a generator, everything else is good to go. It's only when the poles snap or wires actually short/arc that you lose cable/telephone/optic lines.

You ever notice how it's fairly rare for you low voltage land-line telephone to go out? It's partly do to system design (I'm sure there's tons of places to read about on the web about why it works so good and why it's been hard for companies to get rid of it) and because the wires are lower on the poles and get protection from up above.

My recommendation is to save the money on a UPS for the home and get a generator with electronic grade filtering. The different generator companies call them different names according to their trademarks but you'll see it in the specs for distortion. Most have started putting this on the output of their generators as a selling point once you get above the $500-600 cheapies. I have a contractor grade Generac generator and it's a pretty clean signal.

If you REALLY need a UPS system for your electronics, odds are you are tecnically inclined enough to not need advice from an internet forum on why you need it (like critical servers). A UPS for a single laptop/desktop is silly if you ask me and I'm one of those people who typically waste money on gadgets.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by This'nThat

Not true. Internet is separate, ... -- the internet has always remained on. ...

If your 'net service comes over the wire and a tree takes out a line, or a vehicle knocks over a pole, you will lose service if you are 'down stream' from that break. Frequently the various services are deliverred to you from different directions and in the event of an outage, might be re-routed to you from different directions as well. The more remote your locaton is, the fewer routing options there might be with service reaching you through choke points and you might be at a service 'dead-end.' You might also be located between two switches and powerring up your section could charge a broken line which they do not want to do.

That's why you can lose one service without losing the rest, or recover some sooner than others.

.

[camp guy]

After reading the most recent 18 or so posts about generators and hooking up generators I am scared to absolute death about what some of you are doing. Any one who thinks that no one worries about Code in an emergency is totally wrong. The Code is all about life safety, not whether or not you have power.

Please, people, DO NOT TAKE SHORT CUTS when wiring up a generator, of any type or size. Use the services of a qualified, licensed electrician, and keep in close touch with your local Building Inspector and Code Enforement Officer.

There is no substitute for doing it correctly.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by camp guy

The Code is all about life safety, not whether or not you have power.

This is why the lineman either work the downed lines as assumed live or they physically disconnect the circuit they are working on. People always talk about protecting the power company but it's really to protect their personal electrical system and house.

A generator not disconnected from the lines won't like being turned into a motor when power is restored.

[SIKSUKR]

In the last 12 years and 3 extended outages of at least 2 days I have never lost my cable, only the electricity. As soon as my generator was started I was watching tv. On one outage I saw a Comcast truck down the road from me. When it was gone I saw they had placed a small generator at the pole. I assumed it was powering the cable because somehow the cable power feed was disconnected but the signal was there.

[RLW]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

This is why the lineman either work the downed lines as assumed live or they physically disconnect the circuit they are working on. People always talk about protecting the power company but it's really to protect their personal electrical system and house.
A generator not disconnected from the lines won't like being turned into a motor when power is restored.

I have never said this in a forum before, but I am going to right now. I totally disagree with the under lined part of your statement. Line man can be working at several locations on a particular line and they do not shut the power off to ALL locations. SAFETY is the number 1 reason to notify the power company about generators and to have certified electricians wire units to CODE. If they didn't need to they wouldn't take the time to write the code for safety.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by RLW

I have never said this in a forum before, but I am going to right now. I totally disagree with the under lined part of your statement. Line man can be working at several locations on a particular line and they do not shut the power off to ALL locations. SAFETY is the number 1 reason to notify the power company about generators and to have certified electricians wire units to CODE. If they didn't need to they wouldn't take the time to write the code for safety.

This will be my last post in this thread as there is just too much generalization and "common knowledge" being passed along.

Lineman will use protocol to assume wires are live and use precautions as such. Call PSNH or talk to a lineman about what they do. Look closely at the aprons and gloves they are using. I've got hands-on working experience with working lines.

I know that in the couple times a year we lose power I don't have to sweat waiting for power to come back.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by RLW

I have never said this in a forum before, but I am going to right now. I totally disagree with the under lined part of your statement. Line man can be working at several locations on a particular line and they do not shut the power off to ALL locations. SAFETY is the number 1 reason to notify the power company about generators and to have certified electricians wire units to CODE. If they didn't need to they wouldn't take the time to write the code for safety.

I agree with you RLW...

This is what PSNH has to say about it:

"When improperly installed, a generator—no matter how small you might think it is—can backfeed dangerous amounts of electricity into the electrical grid beyond your home. The electricity, once on “the grid” is quickly “stepped up” to much higher and dangerous voltages. This can cause fires as well as be a danger to nearby residents, and to utility line technicians."

[NoRegrets]

I thought I would look up the term Jury Rigged and found this description:

"Jury rigging refers to makeshift repairs or temporary contrivances, made with only the tools and materials that happen to be on hand. Originally a nautical term, on sailing ships a jury rig is a replacement mast and yards improvised in case of damage or loss of the original mast." Wikepedia

We have lost power 4 times in the winter for more than 3 days over a 24 year period (twice within the past 5). We "jury rig" our setup but I always pull the main breaker insuring nothing can go out of my home circuits for the safety of the linemen. I do believe this is the most critical aspect of the operation. If you electricute yourself, you pay the price. It is not fair to place others at risk.

I am amazed I have not heard of horror stories of injury or death with all the generaters that have been purchased in the last 30 years. Maybe we are not as "dumb" as our laws suggest.

One of my main reasons for the generator was to prevent the house from freezing and having serious plumbing problems. Now that has been replaced by comfort. Another great Winni thread....

[IslandRadio]

I would absolutely get a generator. I have one and it is used at least 4 or 5 times per year, and sometimes for a long time (like, 10 days in a row!!!!).

A few random thoughts:

Internet Service Most cable systems RELY on street power. When the street power is out for more than some number of hours, the system dies and so does your Internet. DSL does not suffer from this problem, but it is also not available in many (most?) areas. If you depend on the Internet during a power outage, consider a backup solution for this as well.

Computers and UPSs Generators generally produce less than perfect, but perfectly usable power. Some UPSs are VERY sensitive to things like frequency (more than 2 cycles per second from the requisite 60 cycles (or Hz) is considered an "outage", and the UPS will revert to batteries. Check this!!!!! Generators usually do not produce a perfect 60Hz output, and in fact, it can vary 5Hz either way. Not a big problem for most equipment - AC motors that are synched to the line frequency will run faster or slower, depending... but not by much (5Hz is less than 10% of the line frequency).

Voltage: This is not nearly as big a problem as frequency, but can be. Check the voltage range of the UPS before it determines the power as "unusable".

How much power This depends on what you need to operate. If you have a well pump that runs on 240V and takes 20 amperes, that's 4800 watts right there, and you should have at least twice that capacity for other things to be able to work as well.

Portable of built in? Depends on your particular setup. You can get a 10kw portable, 120/240V output, and that's usually plenty for most homes unless you want to run several burners on your electric stove at the same time. Electric dryers should not be run - they suck a lot of power for a long time.

A handy person who knows electrical wiring can hook them up safely (your own house, of course), but if you don't know what you're doing, don't do it.

I have an old (1940s) military gas powered unit - 4 cyl, 12.5kW that puts out an unregulated 250 Volts, floating. I had to use an AC voltage regulator and a balancing center tapped transformer to produce standard 115/230V power. It does work very well.

Regards,

Steve

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by IslandRadio

How much power This depends on what you need to operate. If you have a well pump that runs on 240V and takes 20 amperes, that's 4800 watts right there, and you should have at least twice that capacity for other things to be able to work as well.

IslandRadio is correct. You have to correctly size the generator. Here's a table of typical power requirements for some common appliances. Most generators sold these days have a "running wattage" rating and a "startup wattage" rating.

G EN E R A T O R W O R K S H E E T
	RUNNING WATTAGE REQUIREMENTS	ADDITIONAL STARTING WATTAGE REQUIREMENTS	TOTALS
HEATING/COOLING:
Furnace Fan, gas or fuel oil furnace
1/8 horsepower	300	500
1/6 horsepower	500	750
1/4 horsepower	600	1000
2/5 horsepower	700	1400
3/5 horsepower	875	2350
Central Air Conditioner
10,000 BTU	1500	2200
20,000 BTU	2500	3300
24,000 BTU	3800	4950
32,000 BTU	5000	6500
40,000 BTU	6000	6700
HEATING/COOLING:		SUB-TOTAL:
KITCHEN:
Refrigerator, Average	600	2200
Dish Washer - Cool Dry	700	1400
Dish Washer - Hot Dry	1450	1400
Clothes Dryer - Gas	700	1800
Clothes Dryer - Electric	5750	1800
Microwave Oven, 750W	750	800
Washing Machine	750	2300
Coffee Maker	850	0
Toaster 2-slice	1100	0
Toaster 4-slice	1650	0
Electric Skillet	1500	0
Electric Range 6-in. element	1500	0
Electric Range 8-in. element	2100	0
Freezer	2500	2200
KITCHEN		SUB-TOTAL:
BATHROOM
Hair Dryer	800 - 1700	0
Iron	1200	0
BATHROOM		SUB-TOTAL:
APPLIANCES
Lights- Wattage	Actual:
VCR	50	0
Heating Pad	65	0
Radio	100	0
Television - Black & White	100	0
Television - Color	300	0
Dehumidifier	400	0
Electric Blanket	400	0
Garage Door Opener - 1/4HP	550	1100
Garage Door Opener - 1/3HP	725	1400
Well Pump - 1/3 hp	750	1400
Well Pump - 1/2 hp	1000	2100
Sump Pump - 1/3 hp	500-1200	1700
Sump Pump - 1/2 hp	1050	2150
Vacuum Cleaner - Standard	800	0
Vacuum Cleaner - Deluxe	1100	0
APPLIANCES		SUB-TOTAL:
COMMERCIAL PRODUCTS:
1/4" Drill	300	300
Jigsaw	300	300
Electric Weed Trimmer	500	500
Router	1000	1000
Belt Sander	1000	1000
Disc Sander	1200	1200
Chain Saw	1200	1200
Worm Drive Saw	1560	3100
12" Concrete Cutter	1800	3600
7 1/4" Circular Saw	1500	3000
Disc Grinder	2000	4000
Air Compressor, Average	2000	4000
COMMERCIAL PRODUCTS:		SUB-TOTAL:
		GRAND TOTAL

[KDL]

Just a few more safety related items to keep in mind: The power produced by a generator is just as dangerous as what comes in over the lines. Treat it accordingly. Secondly, most often when a generator needs to be put into use it's under less than ideal conditions, usually in the dark, rain, cold etc. It's best not to leave any part of the hook-up to memory or chance. That's how accidents happen. It really does need to be fool proof. Be safe.

[SIKSUKR]

Thousands Still Without Power After Storm
Ice Makes Restoring Power Difficult
POSTED: 8:01 am EST March 8, 2011
UPDATED: 12:22 pm EST March 8, 2011

CHARLESTOWN, N.H. -- Utility crews worked to restore power to thousands of people left in the dark after Monday's heavy rain and snow.

Slightly fewer than 5,000 customers were still without power by noon Tuesday. New Hampshire Electric Co-op said most should have power restored by later Tuesday.

[Steve Di.]

I installed a whole-house generator in my house in Massachusetts. My system produces 16,000 watts and is powered by natural gas; this setup can power my entire house indefinitely.

The generator has an automatic transfer switch which monitors the power that is being provided to the house. During a power failure, the system starts the generator and brings the power on line. It will also switch the house back to utility power when electricity is restored. It is worth not having to drag out a portable generator and fumble with power lines during a storm, only to find the generator to be out of fuel.

I believe a standby generator is even more critical in New Hampshire where a majority of the houses have wells for drinking water. The whole-house system with an automatic transfer switch is the best way to go.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by Steve Di.

I installed a whole-house generator in my house in Massachusetts. My system produces 16,000 watts and is powered by natural gas; this setup can power my entire house indefinitely.......

Now if we could only get an endless and uninterruptable supply of natural gas here in NH ...

[beltrams]

Indeed we don't want to kill linemen working to repair power lines.

I am not a lineman, but I am an electrical engineer (in a former occupation anyhow) and I know a few things about what power crews do to safe guard themselves. Most times, they don't even touch the high voltage conductors if they don't have to. Instead, they use all manner of insulated grab poles and tools to move wires. There are also procedures that call for a line to be grounded first, before a crew person has to put hands on it (gloves or not.)

With all the generators that have been installed, to say nothing of the alternate energy, solar and wind systems being installed with several different kinds of utility-interactive and stand alone inverters, the days in which the power company could assume that a dead line really was and is dead are gone.

This is NOT to say that power customers don't have the continued responsibility to make sure that their equipment doesn't back feed the grid by any means, however.

'Just saying, the power companies are keenly aware of how much power more and more homeowners are generating on their own along with the implications for what it means for line crews.

[RLW]

My feelings regarding power outages is, one needs to install one of these to put yourself safely at ease. The $6K for the unit (17 KW), excavating, purchasing the 2 100 gallon gas tanks (7 day supply)and all labor for the gas and electrical conections and the best transfer switch is one hell'ave cheap cost for peace of mind.