Power Outage History

[WINNOCTURN]

kamper

Here is a neat and clean way to re-wire the furnace and not even have to turn the Furnace breaker off.

[Slickcraft]

WINNOCTURN, now that is so straightforward that many will have a hard time getting their mind around the concept!

Actually pretty neat. The only downside I can see is not having the use of the upstairs emergency shut off switch as I assume you have this right above the furnace.

We do have a single circuit transfer switch that I installed at the power panel to power the furnace.
http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Prod...il.aspx?TF151W

[WINNOCTURN]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

WINNOCTURN, now that is so straightforward that many will have a hard time getting their mind around the concept!

Actually pretty neat. The only downside I can see is not having the use of the upstairs emergency shut off switch as I assume you have this right above the furnace.

We do have a single circuit transfer switch that I installed at the power panel to power the furnace.
http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Prod...il.aspx?TF151W

Slick,

The way my Furnace circuit is run, the cable starts at the breaker panel, goes to the first floor "Safety Switch" (the one with the RED cover plate) then down to the Furnace Shut Off switch witch is mounted directly to the side of the furnace. With this type of run the first floor switch could be used to initially turn the power off to the Receptacle and not have to go to the breaker.

On my switch box at the furnace there is a wired receptacle for my condensate pump (AC). When you power up the system you can plug in a lamp of some type to light up the area.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by WINNOCTURN

kamper

Here is a neat and clean way to re-wire the furnace and not even have to turn the Furnace breaker off. ...

Unfortunatly that is not in code. Neither is the way I do it but for an emergency situation nobody is going to bother me. Lovel the diagram though.

[KDL]

One more bit of information, interlocks on circuit breakers to transfer from normal power to generator power is not acceptable to some utility companies. Best to check with someone that knows local regulations before installation.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

From the New Hampshire Electric Coop Web Site.





If you've installed a generator anywhere in Co-op service territory, your Co-op needs to know about it. The Co-op offers a free inspection of any generator installed on our system. We’ll come to your property and make sure the transfer switch is wired properly to meet national electric codes. In addition to helping us update our records, you’ll also be keeping our line workers safe.
For more information or to schedule an inspection, please call 1-800-698-2007, or e-mail us.

[WINNOCTURN]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

From the New Hampshire Electric Coop Web Site.





If you've installed a generator anywhere in Co-op service territory, your Co-op needs to know about it. The Co-op offers a free inspection of any generator installed on our system. We’ll come to your property and make sure the transfer switch is wired properly to meet national electric codes. In addition to helping us update our records, you’ll also be keeping our line workers safe.
For more information or to schedule an inspection, please call 1-800-698-2007, or e-mail us.

Good Advise! The guy you have to look out for is the one that back feeds the system through the DRYER PLUG and never bothers to open the main breaker.



Both Lowes and Home Depot carry them for Square D panels. They run around $12.00. Easy to install. I know neither would sell them if they were not approved in NH

[jrc]

I don't know if Gilford has NH Elec Coop but there are a few hundred boats there with generators and interlocks very similar to those shown in theis thread. I wonder if they want to inspect them all?

My boat has a generator and a sliding interlock setup so that shore power and the generator cannot both power the boat and the generator cannot backfeed the shore power line. Every boat with a generator I've seen had a similiar set-up I'm sure they meet the NEC.

[SIKSUKR]

This might be an appropriate thread for todays weather and may well answer the question. Very heavy wet snow/sleet/rain in the Manchester area will likely produce power outages in some parts of the state. As of 2:00 pm 1300 PSNH customers are without power, most being in southwest NH.

[KDL]

Just because a device is sold, UL listed, or meets NEC, does not automatically make it acceptable to all agencies in all locations. Not saying interlocks are a bad thing. Just need to check first. I wish they were allowed in more places.

[TheProfessor]

I don't have any generators.

But would I like one. Yes. I have found no urgent need for one yet.

But as mentioned there is the storm of the century. In southern NH where they went for weeks without power. And a few years before that over in the Enfield Canaan area - went for weeks without power. So it could happen here.

I think that the types of generators have been explained and how they hook up to circuit panel have been explained. Both the correct code way and the other ways.

As mentioned, if electricty goes out so does internet most times. So getting a generator may not solve any internet issues. Mostly, the hard wired land line old fashioned phones don't go out with any power outage. So a dial-up internet connection may still be available. But then you would need a dial-up ISP.

Portable generators versus the bigger generators. Well, that is a decision only you can make.

With the bigger stationary generators you may pay anywhere from $3,000 to $10,000. And you will need a source of fuel - usually propane. And a placement spot for both the generator and the propane tank. And if the house is not heated with propane - another fuel account for the propane. And you may pay a higher cost for propane if propane is not your primary souce of heating. Some propane companies have a sliding scale for cost versus usage. This year I have seen propane at close to $5.00 per gallon for spot. But this cost may be a non-issue as you may not use this generator very much. Some of the better ones are on a timer and do a self-check every month and are hooked up to telephones or even computers
so you do get a monthly reminder that all is working well.

The portable generators. $500.00, $1,000.00 etc. These need gasoline. And most newer ones have a 5 gallon tank. Then you need extra gasoline around the house/garage. And that will not last if there is a severe ice storm with long time outage. Yes, you can drive to other areas with empty gasoline cans and continually restock your gasolline supply. For basic necessities a 6,000 to 8,000 watt portable gasoline generator will do. And you need only to hook up the well pump, the furnace/heater, and refridgrator and a couple of lights. And you will get by.

If you do go with a portable generator stick with engines manufactured by Honda, Yamaha, or Subaru. A portable (all generators) generator has two parts. The engine and the electrical part. Honda, Yamaha, and Subaru do make both parts and can be more expensive. While other companies make the electrical part and use Honda, Yamaha, and Subaru engines. As I have stated before, stay away from no-name engines. China junk engines. Also, some of these portable generators have a battery and are electric start.

With the larger generators. Purchase from someone local who installs such and will be around to repair if necessary. Me, I would ask to visit some homeowners who have had such a generator installed. References, I guess. And with these also, check who manufactures the engine. If it is a no-name engine then walk away and purchase from someone else. And again, Briggs & Stratton are now manufacturing engines in China. And don't purchase anything with the name Sears on it.

Again, I don't have a generator. And I have managed fine. But if you want peace of mind then do take the plunge. Do it right the first time and you may come out ahead.

Just a side note and a tidbit story:

A friend purchased a new home constructed by one of the best known builders of lake front property in the Lakes Region. An expensive year round Summer home. Part of the purchase was a $10,000 "automatic" generator - propane powered. In this home the owner had a temperature sensor - a dial out if temperature inside reached a low number. On the first power outage the generator did not automatically turn on. It never turned on. The installer was called to fix. Nothing was found wrong with generator. The second power outage - another telephone call as inside temerature had gone down. Generator 2nd time did not automatically come on. Another call to installer/electrician. Again, no issues found. Note. By the time the electrician/installer arrived to check generator - the power had come back on. So installer/electrician never actually viewed generator with power off. Yes, installer/electrician did do all sorts of checks. And all components worked perfectly during these checks. What caused these malfunctions or issues with this expensive generator? Improper installation? Wrong brand of generator? Mabye all was eventually ironed out. I did not continue to follow story. The house was ultimately sold for other reasons.

[CateP]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

As mentioned, if electricty goes out so does internet most times. So getting a generator may not solve any internet issues.

As always Professor your post is most informative. I should just copy and paste them into a Word doc called " Good to Know."

As for loss of internet service I am looking into a 4g USB modem from Verizon so I can use the cellular signal in an outage. As long as I can keep my computer powered and get a signal I'm good to go.

I'm going to take a lot of the great advice here and see what situation we end up in.

Thanks again Professor.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

As mentioned, if electricty goes out so does internet most times. So getting a generator may not solve any internet issues.

Not true. Internet is separate, and my experience with power outages in the Lakes region is just the opposite -- the internet has always remained on. You'll need the generator for the modem and router, of course -- but not for the internet signal itself.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by This'nThat

Not true. Internet is separate, and my experience with power outages in the Lakes region is just the opposite -- the internet has always remained on. You'll need the generator for the modem and router, of course -- but not for the internet signal itself.

OK.

Here are the main types of interent connections:

1. Dial up

2. Broadband

3. DSL

4. Satellite

So yes, some will work and some will not work in a power outage.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

OK.

Here are the main types of interent connections:

1. Dial up

2. Broadband

3. DSL

4. Satellite

So yes, some will work and some will not work in a power outage.

You're confusing people. Your original statement implied that a generator wouldn't help a person restore their internet connection. And that's simply not true. A person's internet signal is not tied to their house's electricity. It's separate, and is not linked to a general power outage. Therefore, if you can restore your electricity [to run the devices you need to connect to the internet], you can get back onto the internet.

[tis]

You know, Cate, after this long discussion, I have to say I don't believe power outages are that big of a deal in the Lakes Region-at least on the east side of the lake. Overall, we seldom lose our power and when we do, it is usually back on in less than an hour. The longest time I ever remember a long outage was the ice storm. So if I were moving here, it would be a minor concern for me. (Watch, after I said this we will get a major outage!)

[lawn psycho]

Go outside and look at the wires near your house. The top wires carry the power. As you go down you will see smaller wires. Depending on where you live there may be different sets but the lower wires are your phone, fiber optic lines, cable, etc.

A lot of times you can lose power as a tree limb that touches the wires and pulls on it and they are set to trip the after 2-3 surges. The lower lines stay connected so if you power your house up with a generator, everything else is good to go. It's only when the poles snap or wires actually short/arc that you lose cable/telephone/optic lines.

You ever notice how it's fairly rare for you low voltage land-line telephone to go out? It's partly do to system design (I'm sure there's tons of places to read about on the web about why it works so good and why it's been hard for companies to get rid of it) and because the wires are lower on the poles and get protection from up above.

My recommendation is to save the money on a UPS for the home and get a generator with electronic grade filtering. The different generator companies call them different names according to their trademarks but you'll see it in the specs for distortion. Most have started putting this on the output of their generators as a selling point once you get above the $500-600 cheapies. I have a contractor grade Generac generator and it's a pretty clean signal.

If you REALLY need a UPS system for your electronics, odds are you are tecnically inclined enough to not need advice from an internet forum on why you need it (like critical servers). A UPS for a single laptop/desktop is silly if you ask me and I'm one of those people who typically waste money on gadgets.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by This'nThat

Not true. Internet is separate, ... -- the internet has always remained on. ...

If your 'net service comes over the wire and a tree takes out a line, or a vehicle knocks over a pole, you will lose service if you are 'down stream' from that break. Frequently the various services are deliverred to you from different directions and in the event of an outage, might be re-routed to you from different directions as well. The more remote your locaton is, the fewer routing options there might be with service reaching you through choke points and you might be at a service 'dead-end.' You might also be located between two switches and powerring up your section could charge a broken line which they do not want to do.

That's why you can lose one service without losing the rest, or recover some sooner than others.

.

[camp guy]

After reading the most recent 18 or so posts about generators and hooking up generators I am scared to absolute death about what some of you are doing. Any one who thinks that no one worries about Code in an emergency is totally wrong. The Code is all about life safety, not whether or not you have power.

Please, people, DO NOT TAKE SHORT CUTS when wiring up a generator, of any type or size. Use the services of a qualified, licensed electrician, and keep in close touch with your local Building Inspector and Code Enforement Officer.

There is no substitute for doing it correctly.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by camp guy

The Code is all about life safety, not whether or not you have power.

This is why the lineman either work the downed lines as assumed live or they physically disconnect the circuit they are working on. People always talk about protecting the power company but it's really to protect their personal electrical system and house.

A generator not disconnected from the lines won't like being turned into a motor when power is restored.

[SIKSUKR]

In the last 12 years and 3 extended outages of at least 2 days I have never lost my cable, only the electricity. As soon as my generator was started I was watching tv. On one outage I saw a Comcast truck down the road from me. When it was gone I saw they had placed a small generator at the pole. I assumed it was powering the cable because somehow the cable power feed was disconnected but the signal was there.

[RLW]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

This is why the lineman either work the downed lines as assumed live or they physically disconnect the circuit they are working on. People always talk about protecting the power company but it's really to protect their personal electrical system and house.
A generator not disconnected from the lines won't like being turned into a motor when power is restored.

I have never said this in a forum before, but I am going to right now. I totally disagree with the under lined part of your statement. Line man can be working at several locations on a particular line and they do not shut the power off to ALL locations. SAFETY is the number 1 reason to notify the power company about generators and to have certified electricians wire units to CODE. If they didn't need to they wouldn't take the time to write the code for safety.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by RLW

I have never said this in a forum before, but I am going to right now. I totally disagree with the under lined part of your statement. Line man can be working at several locations on a particular line and they do not shut the power off to ALL locations. SAFETY is the number 1 reason to notify the power company about generators and to have certified electricians wire units to CODE. If they didn't need to they wouldn't take the time to write the code for safety.

This will be my last post in this thread as there is just too much generalization and "common knowledge" being passed along.

Lineman will use protocol to assume wires are live and use precautions as such. Call PSNH or talk to a lineman about what they do. Look closely at the aprons and gloves they are using. I've got hands-on working experience with working lines.

I know that in the couple times a year we lose power I don't have to sweat waiting for power to come back.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by RLW

I have never said this in a forum before, but I am going to right now. I totally disagree with the under lined part of your statement. Line man can be working at several locations on a particular line and they do not shut the power off to ALL locations. SAFETY is the number 1 reason to notify the power company about generators and to have certified electricians wire units to CODE. If they didn't need to they wouldn't take the time to write the code for safety.

I agree with you RLW...

This is what PSNH has to say about it:

"When improperly installed, a generator—no matter how small you might think it is—can backfeed dangerous amounts of electricity into the electrical grid beyond your home. The electricity, once on “the grid” is quickly “stepped up” to much higher and dangerous voltages. This can cause fires as well as be a danger to nearby residents, and to utility line technicians."

[NoRegrets]

I thought I would look up the term Jury Rigged and found this description:

"Jury rigging refers to makeshift repairs or temporary contrivances, made with only the tools and materials that happen to be on hand. Originally a nautical term, on sailing ships a jury rig is a replacement mast and yards improvised in case of damage or loss of the original mast." Wikepedia

We have lost power 4 times in the winter for more than 3 days over a 24 year period (twice within the past 5). We "jury rig" our setup but I always pull the main breaker insuring nothing can go out of my home circuits for the safety of the linemen. I do believe this is the most critical aspect of the operation. If you electricute yourself, you pay the price. It is not fair to place others at risk.

I am amazed I have not heard of horror stories of injury or death with all the generaters that have been purchased in the last 30 years. Maybe we are not as "dumb" as our laws suggest.

One of my main reasons for the generator was to prevent the house from freezing and having serious plumbing problems. Now that has been replaced by comfort. Another great Winni thread....

[IslandRadio]

I would absolutely get a generator. I have one and it is used at least 4 or 5 times per year, and sometimes for a long time (like, 10 days in a row!!!!).

A few random thoughts:

Internet Service Most cable systems RELY on street power. When the street power is out for more than some number of hours, the system dies and so does your Internet. DSL does not suffer from this problem, but it is also not available in many (most?) areas. If you depend on the Internet during a power outage, consider a backup solution for this as well.

Computers and UPSs Generators generally produce less than perfect, but perfectly usable power. Some UPSs are VERY sensitive to things like frequency (more than 2 cycles per second from the requisite 60 cycles (or Hz) is considered an "outage", and the UPS will revert to batteries. Check this!!!!! Generators usually do not produce a perfect 60Hz output, and in fact, it can vary 5Hz either way. Not a big problem for most equipment - AC motors that are synched to the line frequency will run faster or slower, depending... but not by much (5Hz is less than 10% of the line frequency).

Voltage: This is not nearly as big a problem as frequency, but can be. Check the voltage range of the UPS before it determines the power as "unusable".

How much power This depends on what you need to operate. If you have a well pump that runs on 240V and takes 20 amperes, that's 4800 watts right there, and you should have at least twice that capacity for other things to be able to work as well.

Portable of built in? Depends on your particular setup. You can get a 10kw portable, 120/240V output, and that's usually plenty for most homes unless you want to run several burners on your electric stove at the same time. Electric dryers should not be run - they suck a lot of power for a long time.

A handy person who knows electrical wiring can hook them up safely (your own house, of course), but if you don't know what you're doing, don't do it.

I have an old (1940s) military gas powered unit - 4 cyl, 12.5kW that puts out an unregulated 250 Volts, floating. I had to use an AC voltage regulator and a balancing center tapped transformer to produce standard 115/230V power. It does work very well.

Regards,

Steve

[RLW]

My feelings regarding power outages is, one needs to install one of these to put yourself safely at ease. The $6K for the unit (17 KW), excavating, purchasing the 2 100 gallon gas tanks (7 day supply)and all labor for the gas and electrical conections and the best transfer switch is one hell'ave cheap cost for peace of mind.