Breakthrough infections

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Some of these are very good reminders that the experts are not perfect (though FDA saved us from Thalidomide). But that does not mean that the experts and data have no value, or that various quacks and governors have a better plan than our public health experts and infectious disease scientists/physicians.

I'm sure you understand this. But it is dangerous when examples like this are used in a way that causes some people to believe that something like ivermectin is a better bet than a covid shot.

Agreed for the most part, but as I said nothing about any kook politician or anything about ivermectin I cant and will not take credit OR blame for any such interpretation.

As for Thalidomide, well maybe they have saved us, but it was only after tremendous and incalculable and unspeakable damage was done.

I dont tell anyone not to get a vaccine or not wear a mask if they want to (except chinese masks), but I also dont think they are "THE" solution either, they are simply part of a process and part of a solution. How big and important a role they play, well it will take years to honestly know that.

And with regard to data, how any person may use the data can be totally different than the next person seeing the data, and I 100% guarantee you that media and politicians will us it in yet other ways and mostly NOT for the good of the general public, or maybe better stated, if their purposes produce a public benefit, its mostly by accident.

So beware data, its only a tool. In the hands of a good backyard mechanic, tools can fix something a certified mechanic would scrap, and in the hands of a true master mechanic they can fix what the backyard mechanic cannot even understand. Most things in between are hack jobs, and so it is with data. Just remember how many times they looked at the data and were ready to crucify Sullenberger & Skiles,,, They beat that data to death again and again and again, and then there was an epiphany, and low and behold they realize the 155 people onboard flight 1549 were only alive because of the amazing actions by these 2 men that were being roasted alive for their previously characterized as error in judgement.

What it all tells me is that I must review what it said by the news, the politicians, the experts, my doctors, my friends, and whomever I feel necessary and make my own decision, but NOT follow the common consensus like a sheep being lead to slaughter.

Your decisions will be based on who you trust, and I simply advocate you stop and assess the common message and challenge it for a moment. If you are still in agreement, thats the best you can do. But too often for me, the message sounds off and the numbers dont add up, and sometimes the cure can be worse than the aliment. But from personal experience I have mixed feelings having had some problems with the "cure" in the past. The pneumonia vaccine was fine, but the shingles vaccine was down right awful. Tetanus shots are usually not good and the same for flu shots. I still get the tetanus booster, but not the flu shot anymore. As for the COVID shots/boosters, not sold on them just yet as a requirement for all, as a COVID survivor with lingering problems, I can honestly say sorry the verdict is not yet final for me. Not ready to agree with the necessity to mandate them for everyone just yet and at the moment, I seem to be less and less supportive of it as a requirement vs a personal choice. And a personal choice with no discrimination against the unvaccinated tolerated, just like the flu vaccine. I personally will not sit and see attacks against those who chose whats best for themselves in this complex matter.

ATB

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Agreed for the most part, but as I said nothing about any kook politician or anything about ivermectin I cant and will not take credit OR blame for any such interpretation.

As for Thalidomide, well maybe they have saved us, but it was only after tremendous and incalculable and unspeakable damage was done.

I dont tell anyone not to get a vaccine or not wear a mask if they want to (except chinese masks), but I also dont think they are "THE" solution either, they are simply part of a process and part of a solution. How big and important a role they play, well it will take years to honestly know that.

And with regard to data, how any person may use the data can be totally different than the next person seeing the data, and I 100% guarantee you that media and politicians will us it in yet other ways and mostly NOT for the good of the general public, or maybe better stated, if their purposes produce a public benefit, its mostly by accident.

So beware data, its only a tool. In the hands of a good backyard mechanic, tools can fix something a certified mechanic would scrap, and in the hands of a true master mechanic they can fix what the backyard mechanic cannot even understand. Most things in between are hack jobs, and so it is with data. Just remember how many times they looked at the data and were ready to crucify Sullenberger & Skiles,,, They beat that data to death again and again and again, and then there was an epiphany, and low and behold they realize the 155 people onboard flight 1549 were only alive because of the amazing actions by these 2 men that were being roasted alive for their previously characterized as error in judgement.

What it all tells me is that I must review what it said by the news, the politicians, the experts, my doctors, my friends, and whomever I feel necessary and make my own decision, but NOT follow the common consensus like a sheep being lead to slaughter.

Your decisions will be based on who you trust, and I simply advocate you stop and assess the common message and challenge it for a moment. If you are still in agreement, thats the best you can do. But too often for me, the message sounds off and the numbers dont add up, and sometimes the cure can be worse than the aliment. But from personal experience I have mixed feelings having had some problems with the "cure" in the past. The pneumonia vaccine was fine, but the shingles vaccine was down right awful. Tetanus shots are usually not good and the same for flu shots. I still get the tetanus booster, but not the flu shot anymore. As for the COVID shots/boosters, not sold on them just yet as a requirement for all, as a COVID survivor with lingering problems, I can honestly say sorry the verdict is not yet final for me. Not ready to agree with the necessity to mandate them for everyone just yet and at the moment, I seem to be less and less supportive of it as a requirement vs a personal choice. And a personal choice with no discrimination against the unvaccinated tolerated, just like the flu vaccine. I personally will not sit and see attacks against those who chose whats best for themselves in this complex matter.

ATB

You need to talk to people in places where they’ve ignored the prescribed procedures. I’m back in FL now. A bartender where I frequent did not get vaccinated because she didn’t want to be told what to do. That’s the response of a child. She got Covid. She would redo what she did in the past, after being knocked on her butt for 3 weeks, and still struggling with long-term after effects. All of this is not about individual freedoms. You are a part of a society and need to act as such. The Terminator was right…people in this country need to take a civics course to understand how their individual decisions affect the greater populace. I reiterate…YOU ARE A PART OF A SOCIETY.


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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

YOU ARE A PART OF A SOCIETY.


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Agreed, and in society you respect others choices!

So for the greater good should we be banishing gays and lesbians, because of such narrow minded perspectives.

Should we cast out the poor and old.

Should woman be stripped of all the rights they have fought so hard for, just so that for the greater good of society we can have things the way a select few of omniscient people think they should be.

I think you have this notion of a society backwards.

Choosing not to get vaccinated is not like walking around with dirty infected needles and intentionally stabbing people, its making a difficult choice about what you believe is best to protect yourself.

Would you have the national guard driving down the streets of America with cases of needles dragging people out of their homes and forcibly vaccinating them?

Where does this madness end.

This is utterly horrifying to see devolving into such a mess.

I hope we survive these narrow minded perspectives of dictating how people must live their lives. Life is already short enough and difficult enough without someone else telling you what medical choices you must make about your body to make them feel comfortable.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Agreed, and in society you respect others choices!

So for the greater good should we be banishing gays and lesbians, because of such narrow minded perspectives.

Should we cast out the poor and old.

Should woman be stripped of all the rights they have fought so hard for, just so that for the greater good of society we can have things the way a select few of omniscient people think they should be.

I think you have this notion of a society backwards.

Choosing not to get vaccinated is not like walking around with dirty infected needles and intentionally stabbing people, its making a difficult choice about what you believe is best to protect yourself.

Would you have the national guard driving down the streets of America with cases of needles dragging people out of their homes and forcibly vaccinating them?

Where does this madness end.

This is utterly horrifying to see devolving into such a mess.

I hope we survive these narrow minded perspectives of dictating how people must live their lives. Life is already short enough and difficult enough without someone else telling you what medical choices you must make about your body to make them feel comfortable.

Flawed argument. Your sexuality, your age, your gender are not choices, but inherent to your being. Your thought process is flawed. Perhaps you should take a logic class and a civics class.


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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Flawed argument. Your sexuality, your age, your gender are not choices, but inherent to your being. Your thought process is flawed. Perhaps you should take a logic class and a civics class.




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Or maybe I should not engage in conversations with closed minded, intolerant, authoritarian, and totalitarian minded people.

Well its one option ;-)

I suppose it comes down to perspective and values and rights.

Some will always value freedom of choice over safety and other concerns. And most of them will live with their mistakes to be sure they can continue being able to make independent decisions about matters they consider important.

Others will always seek the warm blanket of conformity. (Well usually right up to the point when it doesn't go their way,,,)

Then there are some people who will always just want it their way, and too bad for the other guy. And they will seek to impose their standards on others regardless if they practice such standards themselves,,,

Its a diverse world to say the least.

Its a shame some have such little respect for the other persons desire to make decisions about their health for themselves.

Its a shame so many live in such fear; NH official COVID deaths Sept 20 2021 = 1, and a 7 day average of 2.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Or maybe I should not engage in conversations with closed minded, intolerant, authoritarian, and totalitarian minded people.

Well its one option ;-)

I suppose it comes down to perspective and values and rights.

Some will always value freedom of choice over safety and other concerns. And most of them will live with their mistakes to be sure they can continue being able to make independent decisions about matters they consider important.

Others will always seek the warm blanket of conformity. (Well usually right up to the point when it doesn't go their way,,,)

Then there are some people who will always just want it their way, and too bad for the other guy. And they will seek to impose their standards on others regardless if they practice such standards themselves,,,

Its a diverse world to say the least.

Its a shame some have such little respect for the other persons desire to make decisions about their health for themselves.

Its a shame so many live in such fear; NH official COVID deaths Sept 20 2021 = 1, and a 7 day average of 2.

I have no problem with people making their own life choices when it doesn’t affect me. That’s not the case with this virus. Not sure why you think your freedom to choose supersedes my freedom to live virus free. Sounds pretty totalitarian to me.

You frequently insinuate that people who are concerned about the virus are living in fear. There is rational fear and irrational fear. Being concerned about a global pandemic is rational. Fearing that the National Guard is going to be deployed to drag people from their homes to be vaccinated is irrational.


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[Woodsy]

If a person has been vaxxed (as I have) why is there fear of the unvaxxed? Why is there a need to bully the unvaxxed? If they choose not to be vaxxed it has no bearing on my day to day life.

The vax is not a cure and thankfully they have switched the marketing to reflect that.

This is an engineered "gain of function" virus. It is not going anywhere... EVER! There will ALWAYS be some new variant from somewhere popping up.

Woodsy

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

I have no problem with people making their own life choices when it doesn’t affect me. That’s not the case with this virus. Not sure why you think your freedom to choose supersedes my freedom to live virus free. Sounds pretty totalitarian to me.

You frequently insinuate that people who are concerned about the virus are living in fear. There is rational fear and irrational fear. Being concerned about a global pandemic is rational. Fearing that the National Guard is going to be deployed to drag people from their homes to be vaccinated is irrational.


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Why do you assume that you, me or anyone will become infected, get sick and suffer, when only ~10% of the population has tested positive to COVID, and well less than 1 percent have died. How does this constitute a threat so sever that your fear of infection overrides anyone elses free choice of medical treatment.

Isnt that fear of some significant impact from COVID the irrational concern?

My desire to allow others to choose their medical treatment.

Now if you had a continuing situation like NY saw in the beginning where they needed refrigerated trailers to store the dead bodies, I would agree with your concerns, but we are so far from that today and really dont understand how we continue with most of the current COVID actions.

The best medicine is what mother nature provides, not what shot you and others decide someone else needs. Human are built to adapt and overcome. Its not an instant solution, but it does work when you let it. So in reality isnt reserving medical intervention to those who are seeking it, or when you truly reach an emergency situation the better choice???

After all, you are the one concerned and yet you have taken yourself to FLA where the infection rate is higher then NH. And to do what, demand your neighbors get vaccinated so you can feel comfortable around them? Sorry that strikes me as backwards logic.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Why do you assume that you, me or anyone will become infected, get sick and suffer, when only ~10% of the population has tested positive to COVID, and well less than 1 percent have died. How does this constitute a threat so sever that your fear of infection overrides anyone elses free choice of medical treatment.

Isnt that fear of some significant impact from COVID the irrational concern?

My desire to allow others to choose their medical treatment.

Now if you had a continuing situation like NY saw in the beginning where they needed refrigerated trailers to store the dead bodies, I would agree with your concerns, but we are so far from that today and really dont understand how we continue with most of the current COVID actions.

The best medicine is what mother nature provides, not what shot you and others decide someone else needs. Human are built to adapt and overcome. Its not an instant solution, but it does work when you let it. So in reality isnt reserving medical intervention to those who are seeking it, or when you truly reach an emergency situation the better choice???

After all, you are the one concerned and yet you have taken yourself to FLA where the infection rate is higher then NH. And to do what, demand your neighbors get vaccinated so you can feel comfortable around them? Sorry that strikes me as backwards logic.

I’m really not worried about catching COVID because of the precautions I take, but I do worry for those who can’t get vaccinated. I worry what this is continuing to do to the economy. And I’m concerned at the lack of critical thinking by many in this country. My opinion, backed by science, is vaccination of more people will get us closer to normal faster.

Here in COVID Central, they brought in refrigerated trailers to store the bodies a few weeks ago, cancer treatments are being cancelled, and “elective surgeries” are being postponed. So by your standards, it is an emergency situation here.

You’re very good at assuming things about me just because I’m pro-vaccination. It’s what I hope people will do. If they’re civic-minded, they will. I demand nothing of my neighbors. It seems to me you’re the one demanding things.


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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

I’m really not worried about catching COVID because of the precautions I take, but I do worry for those who can’t get vaccinated. I worry what this is continuing to do to the economy. And I’m concerned at the lack of critical thinking by many in this country. My opinion, backed by science, is vaccination of more people will get us closer to normal faster.
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Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

ATB

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

ATB

As long as people comply with requirements that private businesses might choose to enforce to keep their employees safe, I have no issue with people who choose to forego vaccination. I wish they would, but that’s where it stops.


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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

ATB

You keep suggesting that it is a choice to get vaccinated/wear a mask, but not a choice not to interact with those that are not vaccinated/wear a mask.
All parties have the choice.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

You keep suggesting that it is a choice to get vaccinated/wear a mask, but not a choice not to interact with those that are not vaccinated/wear a mask.
All parties have the choice.

No idea what you are saying, I thought it was you who wanted no interaction with the unvaccinated.

I have ZERO interesting in knowing what anyone elses vaccination status is, they are all the same to me. I dont believe vaccinated people have not risk of infecting others and I think the risk from unvaccinated people who are not showing clear signs of infection also pose very little risk to me so I treat them all the same even when I do know their status.

If you are happy to have people make their own choice about vaccination and treat them with respect and dignity we are on the same page.

Sounds like a win/win for everyone. One can only hope,,,

[John Mercier]

Because you keep saying that the unvaccinated should not be discriminated against... which means that you do not believe those that are vaccinated have a choice... just the unvaccinated have that choice.

You're stating they should have a choice, but I shouldn't.
The world no longer works like that.

Employers listening to their employees have employees, those that do not listen do not.

Neither you or I get to determine that. We just know that now businesses are asking their employees to mask up to protect the unvaccinated.
Those employees feel forced to do something they don't want to do, because some else made the choice not to be vaccinated.

It is only going to get worse as the vaccine becomes available for the younger groups.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Because you keep saying that the unvaccinated should not be discriminated against... which means that you do not believe those that are vaccinated have a choice... just the unvaccinated have that choice.

You're stating they should have a choice, but I shouldn't.
The world no longer works like that.

Employers listening to their employees have employees, those that do not listen do not.

Neither you or I get to determine that. We just know that now businesses are asking their employees to mask up to protect the unvaccinated.
Those employees feel forced to do something they don't want to do, because some else made the choice not to be vaccinated.

It is only going to get worse as the vaccine becomes available for the younger groups.

Honestly I have no idea what you are saying.

Clearly we live on different planets.

You can go live in your plastic bubble anytime you want, no one is stopping you, you just cannot impose your will on others. What is so hard to figure out about that?

You cannot liken the unvaccinated's choice to not get the vaccine to your decision that they must have it. That makes no sense at all.

Its as if you think they are doing it intentionally to harm you, when all they are doing is trying to make the best decision for their health.

At the moment there is a huge underground concern being generated by woman who are considering having children and who are uncertain about the assurances this is 100% safe for them. There are others who have had bad previous experiences with vaccines who are skeptical about getting the vaccine. There are literally thousands of people who have had COVID and worry about getting the vaccine after having had the virus. There are people suffering long-haul COVID who fear any additional exposure and dont want the vaccine. And the list goes on and on of people who are trying to sort through the media hype and political rhetoric to determine whats the safest choice.

Are there people who think crazy things like its a scam, or its some bad government experiment, or that aliens will use it to track us, sure, but they are small in number and should not be of concern.

But if you are thinking anyone is not getting the vaccine to intentionally put you at risk, well that as far fetched as as the alien tracking notion or the people taking animal worming medication.

Sorry I just dont get the argument you are trying to make.

Not sure its really worth either of our time to make the connection that seems impossible to make here.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

You keep suggesting that it is a choice to get vaccinated/wear a mask, but not a choice not to interact with those that are not vaccinated/wear a mask.
All parties have the choice.

yes you do have that choice!

I never said that.

You can hide away in some sanitary germ proof place anytime you want, who do you thing is stopping you or suggesting you cannot???

I think based on the numbers you are living this horrible fear over something that does not rise to that level, but it is your choice.

And how long would you stay hidden away? This will never totally go away or not be a threat. List is way too short to live in such fear.

Just think back to the AIDS/HIV "epidemic" this is similar in many ways (socially not medically)

All that hostility and fear and discrimination, all for no good reason,,,

Do you really think that what happened then was reasonable?

[John Mercier]

Because of HIV (though it is not the only blood borne pathogen), we now have specific kits required that business uses to clean up any blood.

So the only way to get HIV at my workplace is to be in the bathroom sharing needles or having unprotected sex. Neither of those are condoned for employees or customers.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Because of HIV (though it is not the only blood borne pathogen), we now have specific kits required that business uses to clean up any blood.

So the only way to get HIV at my workplace is to be in the bathroom sharing needles or having unprotected sex. Neither of those are condoned for employees or customers.

Thats the understanding today, are you so young you honestly dont remember the fear people harbored and did not even want to be on the same sidewalk with someone who was an HIV/AIDS sufferer?

Its so similar to what I see today.

People who were even suspected of being gay were beat up just for being in public.

It was public fear meltdown.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Thats the understanding today, are you so young you honestly dont remember the fear people harbored and did not even want to be on the same sidewalk with someone who was an HIV/AIDS sufferer?

Its so similar to what I see today.

People who were even suspected of being gay were beat up just for being in public.

It was public fear meltdown.

That was in the early unknown, we went through that with Covid also; but now we are well beyond that stage.
I can't get HIV from a toilet seat, and I can't get Covid from a doorknob.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

That was in the early unknown, we went through that with Covid also; but now we are well beyond that stage.
I can't get HIV from a toilet seat, and I can't get Covid from a doorknob.

Yes, then clearly you do get it.

So then why the tremendous fear of the unvaccinated? Your concerns make even less sense now.

I know you focus a lot on the impact to business, but this cant all just be about money??? Trading such a serious loss of your freedom of choice so that someone can make a few dollars cant be all there is to your concerns.

So am I supposed to read this as you just want the right to tell unvaccinated people to keep out of your business/personal space/something else? Again, that doesnt make sense either.

Sorry I still just dont get the argument you are trying to make.

So again, not sure its really worth either of our time to make the connection that seems impossible to make here.

In the past week in the U.S. ...
New daily reported cases fell 15.7%
Covid-related hospitalizations fell 10.2%

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Yes, then clearly you do get it.

So then why the tremendous fear of the unvaccinated? Your concerns make even less sense now.

I know you focus a lot on the impact to business, but this cant all just be about money??? Trading such a serious loss of your freedom of choice so that someone can make a few dollars cant be all there is to your concerns.

So am I supposed to read this as you just want the right to tell unvaccinated people to keep out of your business/personal space/something else? Again, that doesnt make sense either.

Sorry I still just dont get the argument you are trying to make.

So again, not sure its really worth either of our time to make the connection that seems impossible to make here.

In the past week in the U.S. ...
New daily reported cases fell 15.7%
Covid-related hospitalizations fell 10.2%

You do realize that broad US data doesn't matter. And that if you got HIV tomorrow, you won't need to quarantine and transfer your workload to a co-worker? Or is that concern a ''panic'' in your mind?

We went through this in the winter before the vaccine became available. We quarantined those that caught Covid and needed to be per the rules. The workload on me increased exponentially - I gave my notice. They requested that I stay to train others so they could continue to service customers. That time period is quickly slipping away.

Another outbreak leaves less time to train, as personnel have to be moved to fill the gap. This is why it becomes an issue.

If they get covid, but are fully vaccinate with the two week period, both they and I will need to wear masks. It slows the training, but we don't need to isolate. If they have not been fully vaccinated, they must isolate for 10 days... regardless of symptoms -no training. If another employee must isolate, and a trainee or I must fill the gap... again training stops for 10 days.

When it is this busy, those ''little'' things add up.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

You do realize that broad US data doesn't matter. And that if you got HIV tomorrow, you won't need to quarantine and transfer your workload to a co-worker? Or is that concern a ''panic'' in your mind?

We went through this in the winter before the vaccine became available. We quarantined those that caught Covid and needed to be per the rules. The workload on me increased exponentially - I gave my notice. They requested that I stay to train others so they could continue to service customers. That time period is quickly slipping away.

Another outbreak leaves less time to train, as personnel have to be moved to fill the gap. This is why it becomes an issue.

If they get covid, but are fully vaccinate with the two week period, both they and I will need to wear masks. It slows the training, but we don't need to isolate. If they have not been fully vaccinated, they must isolate for 10 days... regardless of symptoms -no training. If another employee must isolate, and a trainee or I must fill the gap... again training stops for 10 days.

When it is this busy, those ''little'' things add up.

I guess to me its neither a concern nor a panic, its just business.

I deal with employee turnover constantly. Retention is very difficult the last few years. COVID has done nothing to significantly change our overall resources available.

I see this as no different than a bad cold and flu year, except that its extended. Peoples responses to all this are far too extreme, no need to stop processes like training unless just adapt them to remote/online activities. Figure out what work can be done from home, its amazing how much work people can do via MS Teams or Zoom. And if they dont have a computer at home, get them one and migrate all your staff to laptops.

So many options to adapt and overcome.

We create our own roadblocks to productivity, when the options sometime end up even better then the situation was before the need to change.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Because of HIV (though it is not the only blood borne pathogen), we now have specific kits required that business uses to clean up any blood.

So the only way to get HIV at my workplace is to be in the bathroom sharing needles or having unprotected sex. Neither of those are condoned for employees or customers.

And thats a good thing right?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

ATB

I do not think people should be bullied or ridiculed or forced. But I am exercising my freedom as a business owner to require all of our employees to be vaxxed. We are already at 100%, so it's easy for us to do. Lots of hiring coming up this year--we'll be telling the unvaxxed not to bother applying (in a kind way that does not violate the law)

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I do not think people should be bullied or ridiculed or forced. But I am exercising my freedom as a business owner to require all of our employees to be vaxxed. We are already at 100%, so it's easy for us to do. Lots of hiring coming up this year--we'll be telling the unvaxxed not to bother applying (in a kind way that does not violate the law)

I think that is a wholly unnecessary tragedy, and personally I probably would not apply somewhere like that nor would choose to shop there unless there are literally no other options (assuming its a retail business), but thats your choice.

I feel certain that the tragedy of the intentional fear mongering that you have been subjected to and that produces decisions like this will not fully understood for years.

Its like reliving the AIDS/HIV crisis all over again, and maybe worse as we should have learned that lesson. Its so disheartening to see this again. Maybe its just human nature to harbor such fear and practice such discrimination,,,

[John Mercier]

Why?
You stated you would discriminate against his business.
Doesn't he get a choice? Or is it only those that make choices that you agree with?

[John Mercier]

And what kind of business are you in that your customers and co-workers could give you HIV?

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

And what kind of business are you in that your customers and co-workers could give you HIV?

I have no idea who this is directed to or why, or even what to do with it.

It seems completely out of left field and a non sequitur.

Clearly this thread has jumped the shark now.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I have no idea who this is directed to or why, or even what to do with it.

It seems completely out of left field and a non sequitur.

Clearly this thread has jumped the shark now.

You. I have never been in any industry were I, or anyone that I worked with, while doing their job was at high risk of getting HIV.

I presume you must be in the medical industry or such.

I worked through the 80s in retail and construction before entering manufacturing, and other than when I became a safety officer did I hear or have anything brought to my attention on blood borne pathogens. Never saw or heard of anyone being threatened for being a homosexual - some off the cuff negative remarks from the self-proclaimed conservatives, but no actual physical threats.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

You. I have never been in any industry were I, or anyone that I worked with, while doing their job was at high risk of getting HIV.

I presume you must be in the medical industry or such.

I worked through the 80s in retail and construction before entering manufacturing, and other than when I became a safety officer did I hear or have anything brought to my attention on blood borne pathogens. Never saw or heard of anyone being threatened for being a homosexual - some off the cuff negative remarks from the self-proclaimed conservatives, but no actual physical threats.

No idea where you got that idea from. Couldnt be more wrong.

I have been very fortunate enough to work in several different fields that got me lots of exposure to a very smart and very diverse group of people over the 40 plus years in the workforce.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Why?
You stated you would discriminate against his business.
Doesn't he get a choice? Or is it only those that make choices that you agree with?

Yes one is called choice the other discrimination, and if you cant tell the difference between choice and discrimination at this point in your life I dont honestly know how you can be taught. But it sure explains a lot and helps me to better understand some of the various threads I have read here.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I think that is a wholly unnecessary tragedy, and personally I probably would not apply somewhere like that nor would choose to shop there unless there are literally no other options (assuming its a retail business), but thats your choice.

I feel certain that the tragedy of the intentional fear mongering that you have been subjected to and that produces decisions like this will not fully understood for years.

Its like reliving the AIDS/HIV crisis all over again, and maybe worse as we should have learned that lesson. Its so disheartening to see this again. Maybe its just human nature to harbor such fear and practice such discrimination,,,

We would never discriminate against a person with HIV. As John pointed out, HIV does not present risk to other employees. (you seem to be a few decades behind here)

About 90% of our team loved the vaccine requirement immediately. The rest got on board a week later. We're a science-based company, so people follow the data and recognize that they will be a safer at work and the company will be at less risk of a covid-related shut down. Overall, a morale-booster for us

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

We're a science-based company, so people follow the data and recognize that they will be a safer at work and the company will be at less risk of a covid-related shut down.

For a number of reasons I cannot disclose where I work, but my organization is a pioneer that has created the science and generated the safety data that impacts literally millions of people every day, and our science and data and most importantly our guidance is literally used all over the world.

I am blessed to be surrounded by people solving problems at all corners of the planet and working with governments in countless countries.

Since the beginning of this mess I have constantly been inundated with coworkers concerned about this matter with varying perspectives.

Most interesting to me is the number of people who have recently come forward to say "I am vaccinated, but do not want to share my medical status with anyone, its no ones business". And also the people who are saying "I have reviewed this matter and I am convinced I dont want the vaccine at this time, its not the right choice for me".

And these folks are as educated and experienced as anyone in their field.

I was most impressed to recently be at a military base when a high raking official asked my coworker if another person we work with was still the expert on a particular matter they were experiencing. For a moment I was genuinely awestruck.

Clearly this is a very polarizing matter, and after countless months of seeing the impact and personally suffering both the virus and its continuing lingering effects, which may well force me into early retirement, I am of a mind that we still need to respect individual choice above all else. Even given the state of COVID in the US. I cannot in good faith support mandatory/forced vaccination, and disparate treatment of people who choose not to be vaccinated. I do not fear anyone that is unvaccinated.

Like at any time before COVID I do try to avoid anyone who is clearly sick, but thats just common sense. But avoiding the unvaccinated simply because they are unvaccinated and based on what we now know seems, well to be frank, ignorant. Much like the ignorance we saw with HIV/AIDS, Autism, Downs and so many other matters over the years. Hopefully in time this will all come to pass.

Sorry if your opinion is different, I guess thats just life.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Most interesting to me is the number of people who have recently come forward to say "I am vaccinated, but do not want to share my medical status with anyone, its no ones business". And also the people who are saying "I have reviewed this matter and I am convinced I dont want the vaccine at this time, its not the right choice for me".

Of course, all of theses people have already shared their status on numerous other vaccines numerous times since they were kids--without complaint. Perhaps some even appreciated free flu shots at work.

But that was before politics interfered....

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Of course, all of theses people have already shared their status on numerous other vaccines numerous times since they were kids--without complaint. Perhaps some even appreciated free flu shots at work.

But that was before politics interfered....

Well actually no, their medical data was shared without their consent by their parents in order to get them into public schools, certainly not by choice or voluntarily.

Personally I have not been asked for any vaccination record in my entire adult life.

As for free flu shots, some yes, some never. Oh and remember NOTHING is free, you pay one way or another.

And speaking of paying,,, I was surprised to see "some" of the numbers regarding the cost of the COVID vaccine development, which it is almost incalculable to get the actual total cost of the entire effort. Literally. The actual total cost is not ever going to be available to the public due to how it was created.

But if you could calculate the cost of each life it potentially saved, most could not afford the bill.

Hopefully that changes in the future as well.

[John Mercier]

Republicans argued that the medical consent was a parental right.
And yes, the parents could have chosen not to send them to a public school or private school that required vaccination - so there has always been a choice.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Republicans argued that the medical consent was a parental right.
And yes, the parents could have chosen not to send them to a public school or private school that required vaccination - so there has always been a choice.

I dont personally care if the pope argued it, I am a very independent voter and not aligned with any party because that all have serious problems in my opinion.

As for that being a choice, well not for the people it impacted. Once we become adults we dont get the data back. And before PII laws that data was too often shared very freely.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Well actually no, their medical data was shared without their consent by their parents in order to get them into public schools, certainly not by choice or voluntarily.

A distinction without a difference. I'm guessing you do not have kids.

Virtually everybody in the US has been sharing vax data for generations. This data is often shared voluntarily for trivial things, such as when parents send their children to summer camp. Maybe none of these people complaining to you have kids or maybe they're just hypocrites?

On the flu vaccines--thousands of employers all over the country give flu vaccines to all employees who would like them. Obviously this creates a semi-public awareness of who is and is not vaxxed at work. Maybe none of these complainers have ever gone to a free pop-up flu clinic?

Neither of these things has ever been a big deal, until people decided to use covid vax as a political issue

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

A distinction without a difference. I'm guessing you do not have kids.

Virtually everybody in the US has been sharing vax data for generations. This data is often shared voluntarily for trivial things, such as when parents send their children to summer camp. Maybe none of these people complaining to you have kids or maybe they're just hypocrites?

On the flu vaccines--thousands of employers all over the country give flu vaccines to all employees who would like them. Obviously this creates a semi-public awareness of who is and is not vaxxed at work. Maybe none of these complainers have ever gone to a free pop-up flu clinic?

Neither of these things has ever been a big deal, until people decided to use covid vax as a political issue

I actually have 2 school age kids and I do not support any vaccination mandate or mask requirements for their teachers or school staff or doctors or anyone else they com into contact with. My kids are vaccinated and we are not concerned about anyone else infecting them.

As for the people at work raising the most concern about the mandates, most do have children, not 100%, but most.

They just have seen the wrong side of government control and do not support medical mandates.

Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates. Why is that so hard to believe, because it is not your preference.

You can disagree with them, no problem, but why the hostile responses,,, Its troubling to see such volatile responses to differing opinions and such a strong desire to force your preferences on others about what they must do with their bodies.

Its kinda frighting to see people demanding other people take medications they are not comfortable with.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I am of a mind that we still need to respect individual choice above all else.

Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.

And yet, there are thousands of ways that you do not have personal freedom because you've chosen to live in human society, rather than out in the woods or on an island, far from people and having zero need for others. There are thousands of limitations on your freedom, and clearly you accept these limits because you want the benefits of living in human society.

Thus your statement that "we still need to respect individual choice above all else" is incongruous with the way you actually live your life. If you really prioritized your freedom above all else, you would be living in a place where there were no limits on your freedom. Such places do exist, but you don't choose to live there because in fact you have other priorities that are greater than your desire for freedom!

One of the limits on freedom if you choose to live in society is that you can't do things that harm or could harm other people, like walking around unvaccinated or without a mask. Why? Because other people's right to live and to not become gravely ill because of you is saccrosanct.

It is possible to weigh one person's needs against another's and to decide which needs carry greater weight. (Courts do this all the time.) One person's need to stay alive and not become gravely ill does indeed outweigh another person's desire to walk around unvaccinated and unmasked. You cannot rationally deny the magnitude of 670,000 Covid deaths in the US. That outcome and preventing more unnecessary deaths vastly outweighs individual desire to not get vaccinated or wear a mask.

Individual freedom can never be absolute. If we were all 100% free all the time, social chaos would result. Social maturity means accepting limits on personal freedom, especially the prohibition on harming others.

The saddest thing about your belief that personal freedom is more important than anything else is that it lets you have the benefits of living in society but it doesn't protect society---the people who provide you with those benefits---from your harmful choices. That's just selfish, and socially immature.

You need me. (My taxes contribute to the pool of wealth that ensures most of the things you need and enjoy in life.) How does your need for freedom outweigh my need to live?

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.

No you have it totally backwards!

I prioritize the persons right to make decision about medical treatment concerning their body over MY preference to tell them anything they MUST do.

And I believe that is the standard that should apply to all.

I do not understand how I possibly tell you you must stop; smoking, drinking alcohol, must keep your weight under a certain level or even take a vaccine to protect me!

I cannot do that, you are entitled to make your decisions about whats best for you concerning your medical treatment.

Its the same for something like crime and gun control, should I ba able to demand that you carry a gun to protect yourself AND me because we all know the police cannot be everywhere all the time, but violent crime CAN happen anywhere and at any time. And clearly the answer is no, I cannot force you to carry a gun to protect yourself AND me. Its unthinkable, and is a vaccination mandate.

Sorry I dont know how to be more clear than that.

If you disagree so be it. Then will you also be demanding I carry a gun to protect you, because I will also oppose that, and I fully support anyones right to carry as THEY so choose, but not by mandate.

ATB

[John Mercier]

That only counts should your medical decision not be able to harm others.

You would need to complete isolate yourself, or provide that the other parties knowing the risk can avoid you.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

That only counts should your medical decision not be able to harm others.

You would need to complete isolate yourself, or provide that the other parties knowing the risk can avoid you.

Hummm,,, Let me try this another way.

I do not not support ANY requirement that my children's doctors or teachers be required to wear masks or get vaccinated. The choice to wear a mask or get vaccinated should be theirs, as well to not continue teaching or even requesting to be a telework/remote teacher.

Clearly some will come down on the absolute opposite side of this and thus why we have such polarization on this matter.

Sadly it cannot be a civil discussion, and anger and hostility and intolerance than becomes the standard by which we interact on any such controversial matter. Vacant is any measure of respect for a differing opinion. And I make NO claim that I am immune to this distasteful new standard.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

No you have it totally backwards! I prioritize the persons right to make decision about medical treatment concerning their body over MY preference to tell them anything they MUST do.

You're saying the same thing I said, in different words. You're saying that individual freedoms (the freedom to not get vaccinated) are more important than mandating public health measures for the good of all of society. I strongly disagree.

Originally Posted by XCR-700

People come to America and fight for the most basic and fundamental rights known to man.

The three inalienable rights listed in the Declaration of Independence are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. A person's liberty to carry a lethal disease in his body and expose me to it does not supersede my right to life.

I'm stunned at your minimization of 670,000 deaths to Covid. The nation was traumatized when 3,000 people died on 9/11 but 670,000 deaths is a small number??

Originally Posted by XCR-700

With very few exceptions, you are not required to live around people go to any public place talk to or see anyone. Plenty of people are not circulating with the public.

The basic necessities of life, especially food and medical care, do require going to a public place. I don't go to restaurants, concerts, or other optional places. Again, one person's desire to not get vaccinated does not supersede my right to obtain basic necessities of life.

You're going to answer that I can order groceries to be delivered to my house. My reply is the same: one person's desire to not get vaccinated does not supersede my right to avoid the added expense and risk of someone else choosing my food for me.

For medical care, in-person care is sometimes or often the only option.

What you're not acknowledging is that often people's reasons for wanting to avoid getting vaccinated are trivial or based on pure ignorance. Those unfounded reasons need to be balanced against other people's right to live and to have a normal life, like being able to go to the grocery story and doctor.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.

And yet, there are thousands of ways that you do not have personal freedom because you've chosen to live in human society, rather than out in the woods or on an island, far from people and having zero need for others. There are thousands of limitations on your freedom, and clearly you accept these limits because you want the benefits of living in human society.

Thus your statement that "we still need to respect individual choice above all else" is incongruous with the way you actually live your life. If you really prioritized your freedom above all else, you would be living in a place where there were no limits on your freedom. Such places do exist, but you don't choose to live there because in fact you have other priorities that are greater than your desire for freedom!

One of the limits on freedom if you choose to live in society is that you can't do things that harm or could harm other people, like walking around unvaccinated or without a mask. Why? Because other people's right to live and to not become gravely ill because of you is saccrosanct.

It is possible to weigh one person's needs against another's and to decide which needs carry greater weight. (Courts do this all the time.) One person's need to stay alive and not become gravely ill does indeed outweigh another person's desire to walk around unvaccinated and unmasked. You cannot rationally deny the magnitude of 670,000 Covid deaths in the US. That outcome and preventing more unnecessary deaths vastly outweighs individual desire to not get vaccinated or wear a mask.

Individual freedom can never be absolute. If we were all 100% free all the time, social chaos would result. Social maturity means accepting limits on personal freedom, especially the prohibition on harming others.

The saddest thing about your belief that personal freedom is more important than anything else is that it lets you have the benefits of living in society but it doesn't protect society---the people who provide you with those benefits---from your harmful choices. That's just selfish, and socially immature.

You need me. (My taxes contribute to the pool of wealth that ensures most of the things you need and enjoy in life.) How does your need for freedom outweigh my need to live?

I just took a breath and went back and reread your post to see if I am missing something and I must say no; I actually and honestly fundamentally disagree with you on most of what you are saying WITH REGARD TO MANDATORY VACCINATION.

The lack of personal choices in many other matters are things that need to be discussed on an issue by issue bases, and cannot be lumped together under the umbrella of the universal cannot argue needs of a society. Thats is the text book example of totalitarian rule when you cannot challenge the government or even the common mind position, it is communism.

People come to America and fight for the most basic and fundamental rights known to man, they choice to have medical and religious and other freedoms. Freedoms like the right to access to birth control, the right to access abortion, the right to life and to choose to die with dignity. They do not come to America to be told to stand in line and be forced to get vaccinated, and one look at the current southern border situation will show you we are NOT requiring these immigrants to get the vaccine we are requiring our own citizens to get! How does that work,,,

As for your magnitude issue; first off everyone knows the numbers are a disaster. I have no idea how far off they are, but they are not accurate representations of reasonably healthy people who in fact died from COVID. They may have been infected with COVID when they died, but not all of them actually died because of COVID. ANd that is a VERY important fact. And if we did use your numbers, what percentage of the population would this be??? Maybe .2 or .3 % depending on the numbers you use. Does that genuinely warrant mandatory anything? Not in my world. Not especially when you already had a 60% vaccination rate AND countless % natural immunity.

This is not about me, it is about you and me and the other guy imposing our medical requirements on others. That is NOT acceptable unless you have some far greater apocalyptic event that is raging out of control and there are no other options. Otherwise respect for peoples personal medical choice and freedoms comes above you worrying about having 100% protection, which as you said there is no such thing.

By getting the vaccine and wearing masks AND forcing others to do the same, you believe you will have full protection, when there will always be breakthroughs and mutations and future infections. You cannot stop this, you cannot win, there is no cure. You will only slow the spread.

So when your desire to get yourself maximum protection forces others to do something they are not in agreement with, not comfortable with, and may not be good for them, you are the one who is trumping the other persons rights, not the other way around, You have this twisted backwards.

If you live is such fear, you can remove yourself from this and isolate, but it is not your right to demand others do what you want them to regarding their medical treatment. It is fundamentally wrong.

Clearly we will not come to agreement on this, and I personally lose no sleep over it. I hope you find your peace with all this.

[Pam]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Why do you assume that you, me or anyone will become infected, get sick and suffer, when only ~10% of the population has tested positive to COVID, and well less than 1 percent have died. How does this constitute a threat so sever that your fear of infection overrides anyone elses free choice of medical treatment.

Isnt that fear of some significant impact from COVID the irrational concern?

My desire to allow others to choose their medical treatment.

Now if you had a continuing situation like NY saw in the beginning where they needed refrigerated trailers to store the dead bodies, I would agree with your concerns, but we are so far from that today and really dont understand how we continue with most of the current COVID actions.

The best medicine is what mother nature provides, not what shot you and others decide someone else needs. Human are built to adapt and overcome. Its not an instant solution, but it does work when you let it. So in reality isnt reserving medical intervention to those who are seeking it, or when you truly reach an emergency situation the better choice???

After all, you are the one concerned and yet you have taken yourself to FLA where the infection rate is higher then NH. And to do what, demand your neighbors get vaccinated so you can feel comfortable around them? Sorry that strikes me as backwards logic.

Couple of points: I'm wondering if you've walked through an old cemetery lately? I've heard it said that nature wants you dead at 35 and to kill 2 of your 5 children. Looking at old gravestones pretty much confirms that.

Also, how do you feel about the polio vaccine? When that was first given out it was actually a live virus and a small number of people actually got polio from it, yet it was given out in schools- I remember it well. Would it have been better to let polio flourish to this day?

We can hope for better covid vaccines and treatments as time goes on, but 700,000 Americans have died in a year and a half. Surely that warrants some mitigation?

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Pam

Couple of points: I'm wondering if you've walked through an old cemetery lately? I've heard it said that nature wants you dead at 35 and to kill 2 of your 5 children. Looking at old gravestones pretty much confirms that.

Also, how do you feel about the polio vaccine? When that was first given out it was actually a live virus and a small number of people actually got polio from it, yet it was given out in schools- I remember it well. Would it have been better to let polio flourish to this day?

We can hope for better covid vaccines and treatments as time goes on, but 700,000 Americans have died in a year and a half. Surely that warrants some mitigation?

How do I feel? I have been very clear NO MANDATES.

I am not an anti-vaccine person, but the data being publicized is very misleading and even if I believed it was all true, the numbers do not support what we are doing and what too many here are promoting. My opinion remains unchanged and only reinforced, vaccination should not be mandatory. Not for this pandemic, its not warranted.

The worse part of all this, and almost to the point of despicable, are the people who are vaccinated and still live in terror of the virus and demand others be vaccinated. A society cannot live with people who impose such draconian fears and will on others, and in particular when its driven by unsubstantiated and unjust fears such as we are seeing. We did that once upon a time, it was called the Salem Witch Trials, a very dark period in our history. Soon to be followed by this one,,,

If you want the vaccine, get it, and give it to your kids and encourage everyone you know to get it, but do not ever force it on anyone or forbid them access to anything based on their vaccination status. My god, they are denying transplant patients surgery if they are unvaccinated. What kind of morbidly dysfunctional society are we becoming. I'm beginning to wonder if there is a second virus causing severe mental health problems.

If you live such a state of fear that as a vaccinated individual you are terrified of being around unvaccinated people, you probably have a serious anxiety issue and should be treated for that. Its a far bigger problem than COVID.

I mean seriously there are posts here where people are trying to actually calculate their personal level of protection from the virus. Is it 82%, 95%, 95% - 3 exposures to 1/2 vaccinated people,,, Its utterly dumbfounding to the point of absurd. A society cannot exist like this. And I guess to some degree it isn't,,, If we stay on the current trajectory as we are going now, America will be in ruin well before the mid-term election, so people wont have to worry about if the current administration is better or worse than the last one.

Thats how I feel.

Sorry, I am just being honest. I dont expect you to like it, but I do EXPECT you to respect it and allow me my opinion.

I have no desire to intentionally upset anyone and I have even intentionally kept away from this forum recently because of the extreme dysfunction and inconceivable levels of fear being promoted here. In 10+ years I have never seen such hostile and disrespectful and misguided posts on this forum as I have seen on this subject. Its a serious unmasking of some Dr Jekyll and Mr Hydes types among us.

Cant wait to see what happens next, thank god I have learned to make use of the ignore list, and thank god for the level headed among us who are not a stupid as I am to keep getting drawn back into this never ending carnival of fear.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

How do I feel? I have been very clear NO MANDATES.

I am not an anti-vaccine person, but the data being publicized is very misleading and even if I believed it was all true, the numbers do not support what we are doing and what too many here are promoting. My opinion remains unchanged and only reinforced, vaccination should not be mandatory. Not for this pandemic, its not warranted.

The worse part of all this, and almost to the point of despicable, are the people who are vaccinated and still live in terror of the virus and demand others be vaccinated. A society cannot live with people who impose such draconian fears and will on others, and in particular when its driven by unsubstantiated and unjust fears such as we are seeing. We did that once upon a time, it was called the Salem Witch Trials, a very dark period in our history. Soon to be followed by this one,,,

If you want the vaccine, get it, and give it to your kids and encourage everyone you know to get it, but do not ever force it on anyone or forbid them access to anything based on their vaccination status. My god, they are denying transplant patients surgery if they are unvaccinated. What kind of morbidly dysfunctional society are we becoming. I'm beginning to wonder if there is a second virus causing severe mental health problems.

If you live such a state of fear that as a vaccinated individual you are terrified of being around unvaccinated people, you probably have a serious anxiety issue and should be treated for that. Its a far bigger problem than COVID.

I mean seriously there are posts here where people are trying to actually calculate their personal level of protection from the virus. Is it 82%, 95%, 95% - 3 exposures to 1/2 vaccinated people,,, Its utterly dumbfounding to the point of absurd. A society cannot exist like this. And I guess to some degree it isn't,,, If we stay on the current trajectory as we are going now, America will be in ruin well before the mid-term election, so people wont have to worry about if the current administration is better or worse than the last one.

Thats how I feel.

Sorry, I am just being honest. I dont expect you to like it, but I do EXPECT you to respect it and allow me my opinion.

I have no desire to intentionally upset anyone and I have even intentionally kept away from this forum recently because of the extreme dysfunction and inconceivable levels of fear being promoted here. In 10+ years I have never seen such hostile and disrespectful and misguided posts on this forum as I have seen on this subject. Its a serious unmasking of some Dr Jekyll and Mr Hydes types among us.

Cant wait to see what happens next, thank god I have learned to make use of the ignore list, and thank god for the level headed among us who are not a stupid as I am to keep getting drawn back into this never ending carnival of fear.

Maybe if you even once posted the data that you assert are misleading we might get somewhere. Instead just another long tirade asserting that others are are upset

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Maybe if you even once posted the data that you assert are misleading we might get somewhere. Instead just another long tirade asserting that others are are upset

Go back to post 156 as I do not think he will be answering you.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by DEJ

Go back to post 156 as I do not think he will be answering you.

No worries, my intended audience was the broader group (plus he will know it's there from your response )

Back to the important point, though. While the experts have not been perfect (they're human), there is a gigantic body of evidence that the vaccines are safe, effective, and saving a huge number of lives. There is no intentionally misleading data or conspiracy as he gets so worked up about. Virtually everybody is better off getting vaccinated, for their own health and that of their families and friends.

[Garcia]

At my school we have had two symptomatic positive COVID cases this year which has led to students and teachers having to stay home and/or submit to daily testing to remain in school.

Both individuals who tested positive were not vaccinated.

I'm hard pressed to support school employees having the right to make their own decisions regarding vaccinations when I see first hand how it impacts innocent children and their parents/caregivers.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Back to the important point, though. While the experts have not been perfect (they're human), there is a gigantic body of evidence that the vaccines are safe, effective, and saving a huge number of lives. There is no intentionally misleading data or conspiracy as he gets so worked up about. Virtually everybody is better off getting vaccinated, for their own health and that of their families and friends.

That is your opinion, his differs from yours. So come on man, just let it go, agree to disagree, the both of you and move on.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

No worries, my intended audience was the broader group (plus he will know it's there from your response )

Back to the important point, though. While the experts have not been perfect (they're human), there is a gigantic body of evidence that the vaccines are safe, effective, and saving a huge number of lives. There is no intentionally misleading data or conspiracy as he gets so worked up about. Virtually everybody is better off getting vaccinated, for their own health and that of their families and friends.

I'm sure the hero police officer from Denver would wholeheartedly disagree with your comment that the vaccine is safe:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...115956979.html

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

I'm sure the hero police officer from Denver would wholeheartedly disagree with your comment that the vaccine is safe:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...115956979.html

What a remarkable coincidence that this happened to a person in the midst of a lawyer-led vaccine resistance campaign....and nowhere else in the world. I look forward to following his lawsuit.

You might want to Google "lives saved by covid vaccine", and/or "risks of covid vaccine" to get a fuller picture

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

What a remarkable coincidence that this happened to a person in the midst of a lawyer-led vaccine resistance campaign....and nowhere else in the world. I look forward to following his lawsuit.

You might want to Google "lives saved by covid vaccine", and/or "risks of covid vaccine" to get a fuller picture

I’m sure that will make his kids feel much better…..

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

I’m sure that will make his kids feel much better…..

I'm sure the 175,000 kids who have lost their parents to Covid feel just as good.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I got my flu shot today and am hoping they've upgraded the microchips to 5G.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I'm sure the 175,000 kids who have lost their parents to Covid feel just as good.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

And this is why this matter will never have agreement, more bogus numbers.

Every person that died and tested positive for COVID did not necessarily die from COVID, nor can you say they would have lived if they were vaccinated. Those will always be unknown numbers.

This is fearmongering of the worst kind and is whats stopping the country from moving forward, NOT any measure of vaccinate rates!

[John Mercier]

Because most of the people are not dying.
We have some hospitalizations, which are much more costly than vaccination, and those will add to future health care costs through medical insurance; but for the most part we have several thousand in each surge that must quarantine and can not be available to work.

With the worker shortage, that places more pressure on the remaining.

Since we already can not service customers to their full expectations in the area, when we reduce the workforce for even a short period of time, the problem spirals.

Since we can not find more workers, and when we do it takes time to develop their skill sets, the only option is to limit customers by some means. Some businesses have done this with their schedule, others with other formats.
Some have done it well, others not so well.

From the threads here, the Meredith Subway was offering a lot more money per hour than the Meredith McDonald's. McDonald's is open, the Subway is closed. It could be more than labor troubles, but that seems to be the trend.

Of the 1458 deaths we've had in NH, approximately 132 have been since the vaccine has been widely available here. And none have been in those too young to qualify for the vaccine. Though we deeply regret those deaths, and can not determine from the State data how many may have been vaccinated, the latest surge in cases is really have more effect on that lost-time.

Vaccinated individuals that test positive are suggested that they mask for the quarantine period when in enclosed public buildings, but unvaccinated must isolate for the quarantine period.

So while the deaths are regretful and we mourn the loss, it isn't the largest impact currently. I carry a mask and put it on should a customer request it, I always try to maintain some distance, I wash/disinfect my hands repeatedly, and we have dramatically increased the air quality in the facility.

But every business is going to be ''discriminating'' on what customers it wants as long as the labor shortage exists.

For me, I am looking for the customers that see us as a partnership. But for others, that vaccine status/masking may be on their agenda.

[John Mercier]

So lets say that I chose to never engage a customer that did not have a complete vaccine card. Would that be me making a choice? Or would that be an attack against the unvaccinated?

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

So lets say that I chose to never engage a customer that did not have a complete vaccine card. Would that be me making a choice? Or would that be an attack against the unvaccinated?

Interesting that you pick such a battle ground and to such an extreme, when never before did we decide how to treat people based on their vaccination status.

For things far worse than COVID, we have never had such levels of discrimination rear its ugly head.

And now that you know that the vaccine does not provide the levels of protection they initially claimed it did, why are we hanging our hat on a vaccination card.

Why because politicians set this battle up for god only knows what nefarious reasons.

Whats next, send the unvaccinated to Molokaʻi to live with the Lepers?

Sterilization like they did to downs patients?

Beating up people in the streets like they did to HIV/AIDS patients.

Is this the kind of society you really want to live in,,,

Even now there are very legitimate questions being raised about the actual impact of COVID ( https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...n_counted.html ) and the answers are not good.

So then are you really that guy?

And if so why, because NH had one official COVID death today and a 7 day average of 2 COVID deaths. Doesnt quite seem sufficient to warrant such a panic as to discriminate against someone for not getting vaccinated.

Its all just a bit too divisive for me. If this is really who some of you are, I was mistaken about who I thought was participating on this forum.

Certainly not the kind of people who claim to be wearing masks to protect others,,,

Maybe its time to start thinking about this in different terms, rather than the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.

or maybe not,,,

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Interesting that you pick such a battle ground and to such an extreme, when never before did we decide how to treat people based on their vaccination status.

For things far worse than COVID, we have never had such levels of discrimination rear its ugly head.

And now that you know that the vaccine does not provide the levels of protection they initially claimed it did, why are we hanging our hat on a vaccination card.

Why because politicians set this battle up for god only knows what nefarious reasons.

Whats next, send the unvaccinated to Molokaʻi to live with the Lepers?

Sterilization like they did to downs patients?

Beating up people in the streets like they did to HIV/AIDS patients.

Is this the kind of society you really want to live in,,,

Even now there are very legitimate questions being raised about the actual impact of COVID ( https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...n_counted.html ) and the answers are not good.

So then are you really that guy?

And if so why, because NH had one official COVID death today and a 7 day average of 2 COVID deaths. Doesnt quite seem sufficient to warrant such a panic as to discriminate against someone for not getting vaccinated.

Its all just a bit too divisive for me. If this is really who some of you are, I was mistaken about who I thought was participating on this forum.

Certainly not the kind of people who claim to be wearing masks to protect others,,,

Maybe its time to start thinking about this in different terms, rather than the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.

or maybe not,,,

I didn't. You did. You have determined that one person can make a choice, but the other is not allowed.
We could do it for anything. If a customer chooses to wear a hat, and I choose not to serve customers wearing hats... is that an attack against people that wear hats?

Or is it there choice and the other party needs to refrain?

You keep bringing up protected classes... but these aren't protected classes of people.

In my particular case, I don't ask anyone, because I generally only deal with customers through e*mails and phone communications. The outside salespeople deal directly with the contractors and homeowners, and I only rarely see them when they have an appointment. I might catch them now and again if the salesperson is doing something intricate and needs my assistance to complete it.

But even with direct contact, I am never in close proximity to a customer for any length of time.

So a validation of vaccination would be pointless.

Maybe everyone will go back to wearing a mask... but will the unvaccinated really like that option either?

And you keep bringing up deaths... which is really not the most prominent issue. It is the loss of limited employee hours. That is the most tenuous issue we are currently dealing with.

[BillJohn]

Maybe Covid and the response to it is just part of evolution as the stupid people get removed from the earth. I had a friends who argued that Covid was a political hoax staged by the democrats. He then laughed at the idiots who wore masks. When the vaccines came out he staunchly opposed them. When he caught Covid he told people it was a joke because he felt fine...UNTIL he didn't feel fine. By then it was too late for the antibody treatment but he would not have done that anyway.

He becomes so sick he goes to the hospital and is on oxygen for 2 weeks then he placed on a ventilator for 2 weeks. Finally he is place on an ECMO machine but Covid finally won and he died. He was 43 years old and left a young boy without a Dad. He was a very, very kind and generous soul but his stupidity not Covid killed him. My heart goes out to him and his family but he made his choice, which he was free to do because his opinion was Covid was a joke. The joke was on him and he and his family paid the price.

People are free to argue and have uneducated opinions. But when those "opinions" risk infecting other people because they refuse to behave in a responsible way they become predators. I understand my post will not change a single thing because somehow people have lost the ability to critically think.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by BillJohn

Maybe Covid and the response to it is just part of evolution as the stupid people get removed from the earth. I had a friends who argued that Covid was a political hoax staged by the democrats. He then laughed at the idiots who wore masks. When the vaccines came out he staunchly opposed them. When he caught Covid he told people it was a joke because he felt fine...UNTIL he didn't feel fine. By then it was too late for the antibody treatment but he would not have done that anyway.

He becomes so sick he goes to the hospital and is on oxygen for 2 weeks then he placed on a ventilator for 2 weeks. Finally he is place on an ECMO machine but Covid finally won and he died. He was 43 years old and left a young boy without a Dad. He was a very, very kind and generous soul but his stupidity not Covid killed him. My heart goes out to him and his family but he made his choice, which he was free to do because his opinion was Covid was a joke. The joke was on him and he and his family paid the price.

People are free to argue and have uneducated opinions. But when those "opinions" risk infecting other people because they refuse to behave in a responsible way they become predators. I understand my post will not change a single thing because somehow people have lost the ability to critically think.

A very tragic sad story, and the sad part is you remember your friend as "stupid" rather than respecting his decisions about how he chose to live his life. He choose free choice over fear, maybe it was a bad choice, but it was his to make and he did.

So would someone joining the military and going to war and then dies also be stupid? Maybe to some,,,

Remember your friend as "very, very kind and generous soul" not as a stupid person who had the "joke" turned on him and his family.

No one lives forever. If COVID didnt get him he may have lived to be 100 and died of old age, or he may have slipped and fallen and died yesterday in the bath tub or lost his footing climbing Mt Major and fallen to his death next year. Does how he died have to taint your memory of him so badly you really need to remember him as stupid,,,

Just something to think about.

Again so much hostility and anger and intolerance, and so so much fear.

Its really disheartening to se so many people so worked up over this.

Make your decision about what you need to do for yourself and let the other person do the same and then own it and live.

Life cannot stop over all this, and why should it? NH official COVID deaths yesterday 1 and a 7 day average of 2 COVID deaths.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I didn't. You did. You have determined that one person can make a choice, but the other is not allowed.
We could do it for anything. If a customer chooses to wear a hat, and I choose not to serve customers wearing hats... is that an attack against people that wear hats?

Or is it there choice and the other party needs to refrain?

You keep bringing up protected classes... but these aren't protected classes of people.

In my particular case, I don't ask anyone, because I generally only deal with customers through e*mails and phone communications. The outside salespeople deal directly with the contractors and homeowners, and I only rarely see them when they have an appointment. I might catch them now and again if the salesperson is doing something intricate and needs my assistance to complete it.

But even with direct contact, I am never in close proximity to a customer for any length of time.

So a validation of vaccination would be pointless.

Maybe everyone will go back to wearing a mask... but will the unvaccinated really like that option either?

And you keep bringing up deaths... which is really not the most prominent issue. It is the loss of limited employee hours. That is the most tenuous issue we are currently dealing with.

Not sure how deaths is not the most prominent matter of concern,,, Clearly it rises above all else and hopefully the people who are clear of mind will see this is the benchmark of most concern in declaring a pandemic. Other considerations are important, but fall far behind deaths.

The loss of employee hours is a certainly a concern, but could also be looked at differently, it could open up opportunities for others.

As for you constant reasons to discriminate against the unvaccinated or the hat wearers, they need not be in a protected class to be discriminated against. And eventually you will find your equilibrium, you will have your customers, and the ones you turn away will find someone that is happy to have them and it will be as it has been for thousands or years where someone in the future will wonder how the world got so screwed up because people lived in fear of some matter that no longer exists. So if discriminating against any hat wearer makes you feel safe and happier, so be it. I'm not your morality monitor, you have to live your life and do what you can live with, and if that means living in the plastic bubble that is an option.

As a society we discriminate all the time, the banning of indoor smoking is a good example.

Whatever you decide own if, and if you think you are without prejudice, think again, I think prejudice and the desire to control others and even the like for conflict is programmed into the human DNA, you can try to fight it, hopefully most do, but it is there always nagging at us. Try to rise above it and be the best you can, but you will not beat it. Best you will do is a compromise of tolerance of what you dislike.