Seaplane Base and runway 19 Mile Bay Proposed

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

I have gone back through this thread, and gathered what appear to be all of the legitimate questions that have been unanswered (I omitted what appeared to be rhetorical questions). Apologies to any forum members that posed questions I may have missed. It would be helpful to have direct, responsive answers to each of these questions:

(1) How long would your tour plane be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations? You have said the potential plan is to operate from 10am-7pm, with one flight per hour, and a half hour air time per flight. If that’s the case, are you not planning to be at the dock for approximately a half hour per flight (or close to a half hour) for safety briefings, loading, unloading, etc.? Please tell us how we got the math wrong here, and how much time you would be at the dock (assuming back-to-back reservations), and how you calculate to get to that amount of time.

(2) What do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land and there are no open docks for an hour? What happens to your next reservations?

(3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

(4) Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

(5) Where would your passenger customers park their vehicles while they are on your plane?

(6) Under your view of appropriate use of a town-owned wharf for commercial business, why shouldn’t a food truck be allowed to park on the wharf for half the day to sell to the public? Or permit a pontoon boat with an ice cream stand to tie up to the wharf? Is your position that commercial use of the dock is permissible by all and is on a daily first-come basis? (Your comparison to intermittent barge use has been extensively addressed above; a rehash of that isn’t helpful; it would be helpful to see where you draw the line on commercial use of town property)

(7) Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?

(8) Why don’t you run the sightseeing flights out of your base on Mirror Lake? You disparage town residents as having a “NIMBY” mindset. Are you not running this out of your base on Mirror Lake because you don’t want to upset your own neighbors running 8 flights out and 8 flights in per day? Or are you not permitted to use your residence for commercial operations?

(9) When is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

Do you need a job? I'll hire you for my logistics manager. I know you are curious about how people run their companies, but do you wonder what other commercial operators do when they aren't picking up and dropping off at the pier? That's not a sarcastic question. Do you treat them with the same respect?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you need a job? I'll hire you for my logistics manager. I know you are curious about how people run their companies, but do you wonder what other commercial operators do when they aren't picking up and dropping off at the pier? That's not a sarcastic question. Do you treat them with the same respect?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

These are entirely fair questions for a business that is seeking to use public property as its base of operations. Not a single business in this town or any other in the state is permitted to use public property in the manner you seek without a license, paying for it, having a contract with indemnification obligations to the municipality, and often providing a bond for the obligations since these types of operations are often undercapitalized (I’m not suggesting you are, but these are the issues diligence in public contracting involve).

And please, stop with the barge comparison. The barges use the wharf intermittently what, maybe an hour or two a week, as the public access for island residents, and have never to my knowledge displaced any other use of the dock. Nor are they based on the town dock. Your sole in-person interaction on land with your customers will be on the town dock. You are proposing to use the dock as a base for your business, as demonstrated by the math above that your plane would be there for 4-5 hours a day if fully booked, and even longer if not fully booked. Not all the barge companies combined, nor any member of the public, use the town wharf as extensively as you seek to. So, yes, when you are effectively asking the town to subsidize your business by providing you a business base for free, these are the types of questions you can expect.

And as for my employment status, I do fine for myself without asking the public to subsidize my business. Please stay on topic and be respectful, as I have tried to do here in posing legitimate questions and demonstrating the problems with your public positions and statements.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

These are entirely fair questions for a business that is seeking to use public property as its base of operations. Not a single business in this town or any other in the state is permitted to use public property in the manner you seek without a license, paying for it, having a contract with indemnification obligations to the municipality, and often providing a bond for the obligations since these types of operations are often undercapitalized (I’m not suggesting you are, but these are the issues diligence in public contracting involve).

And please, stop with the barge comparison. The barges use the wharf intermittently what, maybe an hour or two a week, as the public access for island residents, and have never to my knowledge displaced any other use of the dock. Nor are they based on the town dock. Your sole in-person interaction on land with your customers will be on the town dock. You are proposing to use the dock as a base for your business, as demonstrated by the math above that your plane would be there for 4-5 hours a day if fully booked, and even longer if not fully booked. Not all the barge companies combined, nor any member of the public, use the town wharf as extensively as you seek to. So, yes, when you are effectively asking the town to subsidize your business by providing you a business base for free, these are the types of questions you can expect.

And as for my employment status, I do fine for myself without asking the public to subsidize my business. Please stay on topic and be respectful, as I have tried to do here in posing legitimate questions and demonstrating the problems with your public positions and statements.

So you do finally admit that there are people who use the dock for commercial purposes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Epic, when is the public hearing for your proposed modifications to town property so that you can run your business from town property?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by DEJ

Epic, when is the public hearing for your proposed business that you want to run from town property?

Hello, it's not set yet. The selectman have requested a step prior to this, in the process. Insert sarcasm, yes a process! One that is being followed!

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Mr. Wood:
When you joined this discussion yesterday, you said that you “would like to address everyone’s concerns… feel free to ask… we are open, honest and not afraid of any questions.” I applaud this attitude, and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but… you have not answered questions that I have directly and clearly asked, sometimes multiple times. The result is that I am beginning to wonder if you are being purposely evasive, perhaps because you are afraid that disclosing the true nature of your proposed business operations would paint a negative picture of commercial seaplane activity that relies on the publicly owned Union Wharf in Tuftonboro.
Please live up to the words in your first post and answer these questions:

“For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.”
If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened?

How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside?

When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be?

It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

So you do finally admit that there are people who use the dock for commercial purposes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

So you do finally admit your business will be based on town property?

As noted about five times previously, yes, there are INCIDENTAL commercial uses (Ctrl-F for incidental) by barges, island realtors, and probably many others no one sees and that do not interfere. You ignore the fundamental difference between incidental commercial use of public property and basing ones entire business off public property.

Another example. Photographers often take clients to public parks (eg Wolfeboro by the docks) to take pictures. That doesn’t mean a photographer can set up his or her office, studio, framing and printing facility in the gazebo there. That’s the difference between incidental commercial use, and basing a business on public property. I don’t think you’re confused about the difference, you just want the town and its residents to ignore it.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

So you do finally admit your business will be based on town property?

As noted about five times previously, yes, there are INCIDENTAL commercial uses (Ctrl-F for incidental) by barges, island realtors, and probably many others no one sees and that do not interfere. You ignore the fundamental difference between incidental commercial use of public property and basing ones entire business off public property.

Another example. Photographers often take clients to public parks (eg Wolfeboro by the docks) to take pictures. That doesn’t mean a photographer can set up his or her office, studio, framing and printing facility in the gazebo there. That’s the difference between incidental commercial use, and basing a business on public property. I don’t think you’re confused about the difference, you just want the town and its residents to ignore it.

Respectfully, Please site the law, regulation, or town ordinance that you are referring to please. I have done this...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Respectfully, Please site the law, regulation, or town ordinance that you are referring to please. I have done this...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Respectfully, this is a pretty basic legal concept that you should have raised with a lawyer before you started all this. But since you asked, this is adopted in one form or another in virtually all states and municipalities. One example from the town of Tuftonboro that you really should have read before you started this “process”:

Tuftonboro Docking and Parking Ordinance (relevant excerpts):

C. UNION WHARF

THIS TOWN-OWNED WHARF AND BOAT LAUNCH FACILITY IS AVAILABLE FOR USE BY THE PUBLIC AS A TEMPORARY DOCKING AND BOAT LAUNCHING FACILITY. NO OVERNIGHT DOCKING IS ALLOWED...

CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES MAY USE UNION WHARF TO LOAD AND UNLOAD SUPPLIES AND MATERIAL FOR LAKESIDE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RESTRICTIONS SET FORTH HEREIN.

. . .

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Respectfully, this is a pretty basic legal concept that you should have raised with a lawyer before you started all this. But since you asked, this is adopted in one form or another in virtually all states and municipalities. One example from the town of Tuftonboro that you really should have read before you started this “process”:

Tuftonboro Docking and Parking Ordinance (relevant excerpts):

C. UNION WHARF

THIS TOWN-OWNED WHARF AND BOAT LAUNCH FACILITY IS AVAILABLE FOR USE BY THE PUBLIC AS A TEMPORARY DOCKING AND BOAT LAUNCHING FACILITY. NO OVERNIGHT DOCKING IS ALLOWED...

CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES MAY USE UNION WHARF TO LOAD AND UNLOAD SUPPLIES AND MATERIAL FOR LAKESIDE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RESTRICTIONS SET FORTH HEREIN.

. . .

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.

Sounds good. Thanks.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.

In fairness to everyone, the rest of the sentence you quote form the Docking and Parking Ordinance says "...without written permission of the Town board of selectmen or its designee." So I don't think an ordinance change (or town meeting) would be required to allow a commercial watercraft to use the Union Wharf for more than one hour; written permission from the Board of Selectmen appears to be all that is needed.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

In fairness to everyone, the rest of the sentence you quote form the Docking and Parking Ordinance says "...without written permission of the Town board of selectmen or its designee." So I don't think an ordinance change (or town meeting) would be required to allow a commercial watercraft to use the Union Wharf for more than one hour; written permission from the Board of Selectmen appears to be all that is needed.

Yes, and that is clearly an exception for intermittent use, such as a barge needing an extra half hour on a random day. The general prohibition is against commercial use except for an hour. I’m fairly certain the selectmen would not view their authority to extend to permit a commercial enterprise to be based on the town dock by virtue of their ability to let a commercial vessel dock intermittently beyond one hour. What is being proposed is far beyond the limited exception the ordinance provides.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Yes, and that is clearly an exception for intermittent use, such as a barge needing an extra half hour on a random day. The general prohibition is against commercial use except for an hour. I’m fairly certain the selectmen would not view their authority to extend to permit a commercial enterprise to be based on the town dock by virtue of their ability to let a commercial vessel dock intermittently beyond one hour. What is being proposed is far beyond the limited exception the ordinance provides.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I see nothing in the ordinance language to indicate that written permission from the select board for commercial docking beyond one hour can only be a limited exception. Now, individual select persons may be reluctant to provide written permission that's as sweeping as Mr. Wood desires, but I don't think that the ordinance as written restricts the board from doing so.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I see nothing in the ordinance language to indicate that written permission from the select board for commercial docking beyond one hour can only be a limited exception. Now, individual select persons may be reluctant to provide written permission that's as sweeping as Mr. Wood desires, but I don't think that the ordinance as written restricts the board from doing so.

We can agree to disagree on this one. Even under your interpretation, and based on their statements at prior meetings, I don’t see the board of selectmen permitting a commercial operation being based on the wharf without at least a public hearing.

The real point of raising the ordinance (the proponent asked for legal authority on intermittent use), though, is it prohibits commercial use like the one being proposed and expressly permits barges to use it for an hour.

So hopefully we can stop with the nonsense about comparisons to barges and “discrimination” against full-on commercial operations based on the wharf for 4-5 hours per day.