Winnipesaukee Dock Dispute

[GWC...]

Why all the craziness?

The state should simply lease some land in Paugus Bay to provide sufficient frontage, as was done in the mooring case, and allow the property owners to build a dock.

My only question: Does one really need a dock to use a canoe on the lake. Did the various tribes of old use docks?

"I think this is a fair resolution," Senate Majority Leader Robert Clegg of Hudson said Tuesday. "You have a retired couple trying to build a log cabin and all they want is to be able to put a canoe in the water."

[upthesaukee]

Of course, once there is permission for a 4x20 foot dock, then the canoe goes away and the 40 Fountain comes in to dock...

Nice neighbors...glad they aren't mine!

[GusMan]

Hi All,

Just to let you guys be forewarned... a semi-rant (OK maybe not
even SEMI) follows.....

I would like to issue a word of caution to anyone who is considering buying lakefront or lake access property. Make *absolutely* sure that your source of mooring or docking is etched in stone. Preferably with a document sealed with blood!

My story.... I purchased an extremely nice house on Merrymeeting Lake.. it wasn't waterfront, but I had deeded access to the lake via a 60 ft right of way that was shared by about 8 or nine cottages. The waterfont had two "shared" docks that were pretty much occupied when I bought my place. There was also a mooring in front of the waterfront that was used by the family from whom I bought the house (it was used for a jet ski.... and my boat was a 21 ft runabout).

So... I decided to not persue a spot on the dock... and I didn't really trust the existing mooring for my larger boat... so I spent nearly $1000 to sink my own mooring (no permits are required for Merrymeeting Lake) near the other side of the waterfront line. What a huge mistake. Immediately... I got complaints from the owners of the other properties that shared the waterfront. One of them claimed to have a mooring out there already (these people use the cottage twice a year... one week in the summer and one week during the hunting season... and don't own a boat.. )

Beyond that... the abutting lakefront neighbor nearest my mooring constantly complained that my boat impeded their view of the lake. Now, my boat was completely in front of my (shared) property... but the way their cottage was situated (angled toward our property rather than straight across the lake) it would have been impossible for her *not* to see my boat (or any of the other boats docked on the property).

This whole experience was a real eye opener for me... It left a terrible taste... and I would *never* consider buying lakefront property again.

BTW.... My former house is for sale again.... after less than 3 years after I sold it... I have no idea why...... But buyer beware when it comes to properties that have anything but clear cut access to a lake.

Cheers....

Gusman

[ApS]

The article doesn't address whether the owners of the 47-acre property sold off their lakefront (down to 30-feet), or bought it (knowing of the 20-foot restriction). OTOH, the abutters' "erosion" issue doesn't hold water either.

Also, what's this with the canoe? You pull a canoe up on shore (so it doesn't get damaged by wakes), turn it over (so you don't have to bail it out or pick leaves and debris out of it), and secure it (so it doesn't blow away).

Suggestion:
Rather than spend the money on lawyers, why don't they offer to do a "property-line adjustment" with the abutting neighbor(s)? It would defuse the issue (which may not work out in the abutter's favor) as well as making a suitable property tax adjustment for abutters.

A 4x24 dock -- for a canoe?

Originally Posted by GusMan

"...But buyer beware when it comes to properties that have anything but clear cut access to a lake..."

You've learned of "Condo Commandos"?

.

[jimbob1603]

I made some major modifications/additions to my dock last year; located on my private Winnipesaukee waterfront . I did everything proper and 'above board'. I was required to obtain written (and notorized) permission from my abutting neighbors and spent over $400 in fees & permits. The final approval (including prints, pictures, plot plans, and material list) from the NH DEP was required to be recorded at the registry of deeds; thwarting any future complaints from potential new neighbors feeling too self-righteous. Cheap insurance ....

[BroadHopper]

Gusman.

I had a similar problem that was posted elsewhere. A road contractor that contract for the state acquired the property next to me. He has 30 feet frontage. Somehow he 'brokered' a 'land grant' from the state and put in a crib out 40 feet. Then he built a 40 ft dock on that. Because the current shifted, our deep water dock became a beach. We can no longer dock our boat. The state refused to permit us to extend the dock as it was 'grandfathered'. We took it to court. We ran out of money and backed off. We sold the property in '97 and it has changed hands 3 times because of disputes with the neighbor. I often wonder if there are other cases like this on the lake. The property have been with the family since 1890 and we had to give it up because of a scrupulous neighbor.

[Woodsy]

Broadhopper.... what happened to you smacks of back door deals and blatant unfairness and possible illegalities. I think in your case, he was the "have" and you the "have not"

On the other case though, I fail to see the issue? They have 20' of waterfront and they want to put in a SEASONAL dock. I am not too sure its for a canoe, but it will certainly increase the value of thier property. Yes, they do need a variance to do so. They played by the rules, and got thier neighbors on one side to sign off. A year later it becomes an issue?

So what if they put up a dock? If they do it legally? I seriously doubt that a 4' x 24' dock will cause any irreparable damage to that massive 30' of shoreline. Maybe thier neighbors would be happier with a condo complex on the 47 acres instead of a single family home?

I am willing to bet both abutters have docks. Why is it the "haves" always want to impede the "have nots"? If people just remembered what it is like to be neighborly and courteous Winni would be a much better place....

Woodsy

[gravy boat]

"Money talks."
"It's who you know."
Either or, it's how it works.

Amazing how Joe Shmoe can't get approval to make repairs to his 40-year-old dock or boathouse, but Mr. Look-At-Me-I'm-Rich can knock down a perfectly good house and build the biggest in the area .... and let's add a nice lawn right next to the lake that requires fertilizer...

Like I said....Money talks.

[Frdxplorer]

Before we all go blaming the rich and famous, let me just say that when we needed a variance, the town was more than willing to listen and were quite reasonable. We hoped to extend two rooms by four feet in the direction of our next door neighbor. That would have put us too close to the property line so we needed to get a variance. When presenting at the town meeting, the board of supervisors (I apologize, I am not up on the titles for NH, that is what we call them in PA) listened to our testimony and the testimony of our neighbors. (They were very supportive). During the meeting, one supervisor actually left to go and examine the project with his own eyes. When he got back, he determined that indeed we were only looking to make two rooms a little bigger, and that in the long run, by allowing the variance, they were probably encouraging us to remain in our very modest cabin and thus prevent a future mansion from being built. So it is not only the super rich and powerful that the towns listen to. I think overall, the towns are very fair and reasonable.

[Lakewinniboater]

I wish I had heard some of them prior to buying our property in Alton Bay!

We bought from a man that left the property COMPLETELY disgusting and much of his personal property behind. Told us he would leave a check for the gentleman that was going to clean the yard. Which he didn't.... he also left an old beat up RV in our yard. The yard when cleaned was 13 DUMP TRUCKs full of garbage and much more inside.

We paid for the gentleman's services and then the guy we bought from thought it was appropriate to LIVE in a NEW RV at the side of our driveway. Then yelled at us saying we were as*****e's when he wanted money for an oil delivery from us.

He lives there ILLEGALLY (Alton Bay has an ordinence against camping even on private property!) OH and he had all 4 vehicles of his, including the F**** RV registered to our house 120 days later. (because of course he doesn't have a residence in ANY state anymore......so how can he register) This of course is illegal! Police showed up and he has COMPLETELY ignored them. He still LIVES in the RV and is a nuisance and just opens the door to the old ladies house that he is in her driveway to make it look like he isn't staying in the RV.

The condo association is of no help! I think we too will need to involve lawyers, the DES (no appropriate sanitation on this water front property for the RV), and the Army Corp of engineers.

Can you imagine!! I WON'T even get into the UNFAIR docking assignments of the association. However, I am sure a lawyer may!!!!

Bottom line..... I feel all your pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jayymarr]

I personaly have a problem with a neighbor who has recently purchased a boat and has tied up on my dock. I have asked him to remove his boat but he has so far refused to do so.

He has stated that he has a deeded right to have a dock on the shared waterfront and has stated that he has no intention of removing it.

I hold a valid dock permit from the wetlands board, this issue has been litigated in court with other neighbors whom have trespassed in the past.

What recourse do I have without going through costly litigation again?

Has anyone else had a simillar problem and what was the outcome or resourses that you used to resolve the situation short of going to court.

I am completely frusrated at this point.

Jay

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by jayymarr

I personaly have a problem with a neighbor who has recently purchased a boat and has tied up on my dock. I have asked him to remove his boat but he has so far refused to do so.

He has stated that he has a deeded right to have a dock on the shared waterfront and has stated that he has no intention of removing it.

I hold a valid dock permit from the wetlands board, this issue has been litigated in court with other neighbors whom have trespassed in the past.

What recourse do I have without going through costly litigation again?

Has anyone else had a simillar problem and what was the outcome or resourses that you used to resolve the situation short of going to court.

I am completely frusrated at this point.

Jay

What are the regulations around shared waterfront? It seems unusual that the person could claim rights out in the water. Perhaps you can charge dock rental - or discuss building a dock with more slips. If your dock takes up all the rights for the shared land, based on frontage, there may have to be room for a compromise. You need something like 225' of frontage to have a third slip, so if the propertly is less than that, other sharees may have a valid claim that you need to share the slip rights that go with the shared property.

[GusMan]

I wish I had some positive input to your situation, but I don't.

See my earlier post....

I had issues with "shared waterfront property" and docking and mooring, but I was on the other side of the issue. I didn't even want to infringe on the owners of the dock(s), but when I decided to take matters into my own hands and sink a mooring, you would have thought that I shot the Pope or something. This was on a lake that has no mooring permit requirements, but from the second I sunk the mooring until I sold the property in disgust, it was nothing but a horror show.

When I listed the property, my realtor immediately got calls from the other "shared property" tenants griping about the mooring that was advertised with the property (the one that I paid a significant amount of money for). I had to get lawyers involved (absolutely no help, since there are no *rules* governing moorings on this lake).

So... after that experience (an *MANY* others as a fisherman fishing tons of different lakes) I've come to the conclusion that *SOME* lakefront property owners are just impossible please.... EVER.

Good luck...

Gusman

[TomC]

Originally Posted by jayymarr

I personaly have a problem with a neighbor who has recently purchased a boat and has tied up on my dock. I have asked him to remove his boat but he has so far refused to do so.

He has stated that he has a deeded right to have a dock on the shared waterfront and has stated that he has no intention of removing it.

I hold a valid dock permit from the wetlands board, this issue has been litigated in court with other neighbors whom have trespassed in the past.

What recourse do I have without going through costly litigation again?

Has anyone else had a simillar problem and what was the outcome or resourses that you used to resolve the situation short of going to court.

I am completely frusrated at this point.

Jay

if he does, and the dock is legally yours, why does he have a place to put his boat on your dock when he returns?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

What are the regulations around shared waterfront? It seems unusual that the person could claim rights out in the water. Perhaps you can charge dock rental - or discuss building a dock with more slips. If your dock takes up all the rights for the shared land, based on frontage, there may have to be room for a compromise. You need something like 225' of frontage to have a third slip, so if the propertly is less than that, other sharees may have a valid claim that you need to share the slip rights that go with the shared property.

Actually at 225' you can have 4 boat slips, we have 289' of frontage and have just been permitted for 4 slips (3 fingers 12' apart between in a row). At 75' you can have 1 finger (1 slip on either side) and for every 75' in addition you can add 1 slip.

If it is deeded shared frontage I am surprised that the state granted you specifically the dock permit. I would think it would have to be some sort of association. Is the land actually yours and others are allowed deeded access/right out way?

[codeman671]

You can also easily look up his deed on NHDEEDS.com and see if it is written into his deed that he does have deeded acces, or look up yours and see if there is a granted right of way or shared access.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jayymarr

"...I personally have a problem with a neighbor who has recently purchased a boat and has tied up on my dock. I have asked him to remove his boat but he has so far refused to do so....Has anyone else had a similar problem and what was the outcome or resources that you used to resolve the situation short of going to court...I am completely frustrated at this point..." Jay

You need to go to www.dockspidersRus.org.

It's a consortium of dock owners who are willing to part with dock spiders -- for a small fee:

Live, with at least most legs attached: $25 each
Package of ten, as above, individually housed: $200
"U-Pic" $5 each, or $10/hour "hunt"
If I help: Double above price.
"Glue pad" to aid with "U-Pic", includes six pads: $12
Realistic decals, 5-inch circumference: $5
Same as above, but 6-inch $7.50
Decals with adhesive, 5-inch: $8
Same as above, but 6-inch: $10
Decals with Velcro, (w/extra hooks, to move around daily), 5": $15
Decals with Velcro, (w/extra hooks so they can be moved around), 6": $20
Rubber stamp of dock spider with pad of permanent waterproof ink, 5": $25
Rubber stamp, same as above, 6": $30

More items are continually added. Please check web site frequently.