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Old 09-17-2015, 07:48 AM   #1
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Default Tips for Relocating rocks in shallow areas of lake

Does anyone have any tips on relocating rocks in shallow areas of the lake.
As the lake level drops more of these rocks are hindering boat access to our dock. I would like to move some of these 10 or 15 feet away so that there is safe access.

Ideas I have been thinking about:
building a rock sled out of either wood or repurposed conveyour belts and attaching it to a come along or even pull some with the boat.

Has anyone tried either of these?
Has anyone used a bottle hydraulic jack to lift rocks up and then roll them on pvc pipes

I know people have moved lake rocks forever, I am just trying to learn from other's experiences


thanks so much
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Old 09-17-2015, 07:55 AM   #2
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If you don't have a permit I suggest doing it at night as I'm pretty sure the DES would frown upon it if they were to get wind of it from a nasty neighbor.
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Old 09-17-2015, 07:59 AM   #3
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Important tip: Before moving rocks around on, or removing them from, public submerged lands one should obtain a Dredge and Fill permit from the NH Department of Environmental Services Wetlands Bureau as required by RSA 482-A, the Wetlands Act.

D. Forst
Shoreland Section Supervisor
NH DES Wetlands Bureau / Land Resource Management Programs
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:07 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Gatto Nero View Post
If you don't have a permit I suggest doing it at night as I'm pretty sure the DES would frown upon it if they were to get wind of it from a nasty neighbor.
Relatively easy to do when no one is around. A stout tree on shore and a come along works well with me. By the time the paper work gets shuffled its winter and well forget about it!
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:28 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbfan33 View Post
Does anyone have any tips on relocating rocks in shallow areas of the lake.
The first rule of rock-moving club is that nobody talks about rock-moving club.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:21 AM   #6
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Maasdam Powr-Pulls .....the Laconia Service Star Hardware has a super-duper selection of come-alongs or power pulls with about six different sizes in stock ....way more than Lowe's or Aubuchon which have just one size.

Maasdam makes a quality power pull .... when the pulling gets tough .... Maasdam gets it done!

www.maasdam.com

Check out the A-100 3/4-ton rope puller with a 100' rope .....probably much easier to use than a cable puller(?).

And, on the other hand, the Quonset Hut on Rt 25 in beautiful Rumney, NH, has 2-ton Cal-Hawk cable come-alongs for just 18.95.

Now that the water level is low, is it the right time to rock & roll a boulder or two with that old railroad crowbar ....... hoo-yahhhhh .... hut-hut-hut!
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Old 09-17-2015, 11:34 AM   #7
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The first rule of rock-moving club is that nobody talks about rock-moving club.
There's a rock-moving club?
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Old 09-17-2015, 12:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shore things View Post
Important tip: Before moving rocks around on, or removing them from, public submerged lands one should obtain a Dredge and Fill permit from the NH Department of Environmental Services Wetlands Bureau as required by RSA 482-A, the Wetlands Act.

D. Forst
Shoreland Section Supervisor
NH DES Wetlands Bureau / Land Resource Management Programs
Please, how about a move rock permit. I don't think he wants to dredge or fill.
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Old 09-17-2015, 01:02 PM   #9
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shore things is just advising of the proper way to do it with the authorities I would not knock getting to know what is actually needed to be done. this is what the forum is all about
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Old 09-17-2015, 01:14 PM   #10
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You can wrap a strap around the rock and use a come-a-long attached to a tube, rowboat, or the bow eye on your boat to reposition things underwater.

If you want to get really fancy use a lift bag -
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Old 09-17-2015, 01:33 PM   #11
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Default Rock Permit

Funny, Old Man Winter and or Mother Nature does not require a permit to move the rocks. Yet man has to have permission to move them back!
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Old 09-17-2015, 02:48 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by noreast View Post
Please, how about a move rock permit. I don't think he wants to dredge or fill.
All Wetlands Permits even dock permits are frequently called dredge and fill permits. The title across the top actually reads "Wetlands and Non-Site Specific Permit."
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Old 09-17-2015, 02:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadHopper View Post
Funny, Old Man Winter and or Mother Nature does not require a permit to move the rocks. Yet man has to have permission to move them back!
You only need permission if you ask before you do it.
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Old 09-17-2015, 02:54 PM   #14
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The rocks around me are just the tip of the iceberg.
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Old 09-17-2015, 02:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shore things View Post
All Wetlands Permits even dock permits are frequently called dredge and fill permits. The title across the top actually reads "Wetlands and Non-Site Specific Permit."
I realize that, I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness of it. I also understand that gov over regulates because many people are jerks. don't get anyone involved and do what you have to do.
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Old 09-17-2015, 03:07 PM   #16
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Funny, Old Man Winter and or Mother Nature does not require a permit to move the rocks. Yet man has to have permission to move them back!
Well, Old Man Winter and Mother Nature could kill you too, but no one is going to send them to jail. It's just crazy double standard.
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Old 09-17-2015, 03:36 PM   #17
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Speaking of double standards this highlights one that I find intriguing. I tend to sympathize with property rights issues more than some people might guess. I do understand why people get so chafed by regulations and the need to get permits. You pay hard earned money to own land then you pay taxes on it. Yet someone else gets a say in what you do with it. So how is it that individuals who are very strong proponents for property rights can have no qualms with the notion of going onto land that they don't own, in this case public submerged lands, and treating it as if it were theirs; building things, placing fill, or removing materials. If you don't own the land how do you justify those actions and yet claim to value property rights. I mean you wouldn't do that to your other, non-public, neighbor's land, would you? (Actually I have met some people that would)

Please understand that I'm not trying to be critical of any one or any group. These are not bad or corrupt people involved in these situations. This is just such a common issue that arises in what we do here in the office and I find this logic and rationalization to be intriguing and would throw it out there if anyone wishes to comment.
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Old 09-17-2015, 03:58 PM   #18
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Seriously? You post this on the forum? Are you BEGGING for trouble?
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Old 09-17-2015, 04:07 PM   #19
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I agree with the overall point, I just don't think this "highlights the double standard" as long as no one else is impacted. I've seen home owners cut trees on public property for there view, or create their own beach far into the water. I don't believe in NRZ's for the most part, as it is an obvious abuse of public property to improve the enjoyment for the whiners. Moving rocks is a common, necessary act.
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Old 09-17-2015, 06:05 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Ed View Post
I am quite surprised that no one has suggested using air-bags to lift and move rocks.
If that photo is any indication, you'd need six feet or more water above whatever the bag must lift just to float the bag before any actual lifting is done. How much water does the OP's boat draw, anyway? Is he the skipper of the Mt.Washington, taking his "work boat" home with him?
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Old 09-17-2015, 07:58 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gokart-mozart View Post
The first rule of rock-moving club is that nobody talks about rock-moving club.
Funniest thing I have ever read on this forum!
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Old 09-18-2015, 07:24 PM   #22
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Default DES vs. the world

Shore Things makes some excellent points above. Some of you may be surprised to talk to a DES rep and have them say "You can't do this, but you can accomplish your goal this way. Cheaper and less intrusive." These are really nice folks and they use the lakes, too. There are a few, not many, contractors out there who want you to believe that paying them $$$ to "get around" DES is a deal. In fact, if you call and ask, you will get straight answers, for free. Alternatively, have your local State Rep call. That's his/her job. That's what they do for $100/year and most are pretty good at it.
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Old 09-19-2015, 06:11 AM   #23
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Yes, the rules should be posted. All should be aware of such.

Now to the rocks. A long steel pry bar and possibly two people. A clear face mask might help.

Now to Becky's Garden island.
Did anyone get a permit to place that house on the island?
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Old 09-19-2015, 06:36 AM   #24
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Default Good and Bad

I enjoy reading the postings of Shore Things. They are informative and well thought out.

Like any organization DES is made up of individuals so some of the responses and attitudes you get will vary. I have dealt with them several times and found most people to be helpful, although one time I did get summoned to Concord for a meeting with an arrogant jerk who worked for DES.

A few years ago I had a piling fail and wanted to replace it with the same thing that was there, permitted and legal. A local marine contractor quoted me $500 to put the piling in and $1,200 to get the permit. I called DES, spoke to a very helpful employee, and obtained the permit myself with about 2 hours of work.

I think it is at least worth making a phone call to DES to find out the right way to do the repairs and getting all of the information necessary before you decide how to proceed.
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Old 09-19-2015, 08:52 AM   #25
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I've had much success with the "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" philosophy, but that's usually only with things that have no major ramifications. When I installed a mechanical disconnect for my generator, I went through the inspection process because I wanted to be sure what I did was safe and would be covered for insurance; similar with my wood stove.

Moving rocks under water doesn't meet my threshold for governmental involvement.

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Old 09-19-2015, 09:37 AM   #26
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Let me be clear...our winter home is in a city with ridiculous restrictions such as...no pick up trucks, even personal ones, allowed to park overnight on your own property ( this was changed only last year). A building permit needed to paint your house, etc., etc. I do "bend" these rules at times.

However, I think Shore Things analogy is absolutely appropriate. If the Lake is public, then certainly that includes the bottom. I live on the waterfront. I am used to bass fisherman coming next to the dock but if I move a large rock which makes it difficult to maneuver from my property, and there are some, should not,the bass fisherman have the expectation that the rocks would be in the same place as the last time he visited so he does not run into one. It is also HIS lake bottom.

Judging from the responses and the solutions rendered on this Forum we are not only talking about moving small rocks we stub our toes on but including significant boulders.

To stretch the analogy further, we probably would not be very happy with a fisherman moving rocks from the front of "our property."

We probably all ignore silly rules...but I don't believe we should be dismissive of Shore Things very logical comment.
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:44 AM   #27
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I also feel that Shore Things is a valuable contributor to this forum. I was on my local conservation Commission in MA for 10 years and understand how careful he has to be when posting on a public forum. We all have our personal opinions on government intervention in our lives, but once you choose to work on the side of the government (paid or unpaid) you are obligated to enforce the law. You do not have to be a Hard__ss all the time; personally I tried to look at every project separately, and tried to interpret the law in a fair and equitable fashion for each applicant.

When we started to look for a lakefront house I came on this forum and read just about every post from Shore Things. Along with that, reading the regulations and my experience I was able to eliminate several properties and eventually settle on one that only needed a new septic system I have had good experiences with DES on two project so far, septic and shed, they have been very fair and responsive.

Now when it comes to moving rocks (or other small things)..... Always be nice to the neighbors most of the time the authorities become involved because a neighbor drops a dime. Also, don't do something obvious like "make a beach", then decide to raze the house and KNOW you will be getting a site visit.

So please, do not cause such a valuable resource to stop posting because she is giving you reality; you may not like the rules, but they are the law.

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Old 09-19-2015, 09:48 AM   #28
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Permits ? to move a couple of rocks? Pu-leeze
Get a tow strap,a come-along,fasten to a tree and move it where you want it.
Pretty hard to prove where a rock was located.
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:25 AM   #29
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How about dynamite?......I mean, what could possibly go wrong?
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Old 09-19-2015, 11:23 AM   #30
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Default Follow-up

I am wondering what follow-up (if any) have the forum members that have obtained permits experienced with DES? Who is authorized to conduct inspections for DES? Have never heard of any field inspections after work is done with or without permits.
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Old 09-19-2015, 02:01 PM   #31
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Default local inspections

Part of the permit process is to notify the local conservation commission. They may tour your project site.
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Old 09-20-2015, 08:44 AM   #32
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Default Any recommendations for dredge and dock companies?

Assuming you want to go the permit route because the rocks are numerous and large and impede dock access, which company would you recommend for work for dredging and dock relocation for a home on the northeast part of the lake?
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Old 09-21-2015, 06:08 AM   #33
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Thumbs up Fishes Like "Structure"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee View Post
Let me be clear...our winter home is in a city with ridiculous restrictions such as...no pick up trucks, even personal ones, allowed to park overnight on your own property ( this was changed only last year). A building permit needed to paint your house, etc., etc. I do "bend" these rules at times.
I lived in the same city—and it's a pretty large one—"downtown" is growing especially fast. The city had restrictions on overnight parking of pickups or commercial vans at your residence. When the resident would apply for a permit, the city would even restrict what color you could paint your house!

Having said that, Hurricane Andrew showed which houses were built onto, or remodeled, without a permit.



__________

"Bending" the Rules...

What I've seen around me, is that newbie lakefront owners like to move "their" rocks inland a few feet. We did the same thing as kids, but I don't remember why. Perhaps it's a need for a human's "dominion over the land" thing?

If egress is needed to the dock, boulders should be moved to deeper water—which is easier. If there's anything better for fishermen (and fish) it's "structure".

Bread-box-sized boulders are fairly easy to move when they're submerged, as their weight has been halved by displacing water. Using a $30 "digging bar" (incorrectly called a $135 Johnson-bar) the boulder can be nudged along the bottom. (A Johnson-bar would work, but not as well).

Larger boulders can be lifted with heavy rope or chains from a boat using a "cable-winch" (come-a-long). Use an aluminum canoe or rowboat, make a bridle of chain or cable, and reinforce the gunwales with an appropriate frame of wood 2-by-X to spread the load. [/QUOTE]



Mornings are getting chillier, and the water cooler, so start soon...it won't be any warmer in April!

If a strap breaks, or the canoe folds in half, the boulder was too large.



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Old 10-01-2015, 06:04 AM   #34
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Arrow This Topic Got Me Energized Sunday...

I'd gotten energized over the prospect of moving a boulder on my property that's plagued me for many years. It's been a nuisance during every boat-launch from my steep shoreline. It was once a part of an old rock wall, and delivered by dump truck in the winter. (The delivery predated "bubblers"). The idea of adding "fish structure" as well, was particularly appealing.

"Do it for the fishes"...





So, Sunday, I pried it off the shoreline into knee-deep water that just covered it—wrapped ordinary tire chain around it, and pulled away. (About 15 feet ).



A coal shovel with an open handle was then jammed underneath the boulder, and the rope run through the handle. Any shovel will work using a timber hitch to keep it aligned.

This "shovel-sled" allowed dragging this tear-shaped boulder (about two bread-baskets in size ) under our dock, where it got stuck again on an existing rock pile. I then brought our aluminum canoe over, turned it sideways, tipped it 'way over, and secured one thwart to the heavy rope. Another rope was tied to the opposite end of the thwart and pulled, leveraging and lifting the boulder over the rock pile. The boulder was then moved about 100 feet to where abundant rock structure was already located.

If your boulder is in deeper water, one can use the canoe as a float (as suggested above). Lacking a wire winch, you can sink the canoe down to the attached boulder—secure it—and bail it out to lift the rock. The boulder can then be floated to where it's no longer an obstruction—and becomes useful fish "structure".



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Old 10-05-2015, 10:34 PM   #35
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Quote:
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The rocks around me are just the tip of the iceberg.
So it was you moving those icebergs....
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:49 AM   #36
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If you don't already have one, get a chart-plotter with the Beiser chip. Mine showed a lot of specific rocks to avoid. Yours may already be listed.

Any rocks that are too big to move without heavy lift gear should be left alone. Mark it with a piece of fat PVC and write the work "ROCK" on it. If ballast it with some cement it will float straight up and down.

This will probably last all season but remember to take it in, in the fall.

Good luck!
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:06 PM   #37
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Quite a few years ago, a neighbor a few doors down, hired a barge to pull dozens of large boulders to open up his dock... They dropped them in the lake about 500 feet out. I filmed the whole thing. They sold the place with much gain.

My direct neighbor cut down trees, installed a new beach, new break water, new docks, redid his lawn, paved over his driveway, all with no consequence and with no permits. House is now for sale at great gain. Complaints from neighbors on both events produced no results. What is the lesson ?

All is well here in Mboro.
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:32 AM   #38
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Smile A Changing Lake Demands "A Cairn for Science"...

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"...Please understand that I'm not trying to be critical of any one or any group. These are not bad or corrupt people involved in these situations. This is just such a common issue that arises in what we do here in the office and I find this logic and rationalization to be intriguing and would throw it out there if anyone wishes to comment..."
Like many of my neighbors, we move our shoreline rocks every year to restore the shoreline.

One neighbor, whose boat has been docked at the same dock since 1960, moved his boat to the very end of his dock: that proved to be insufficient against boat wakes, so he (reasonably) removed those rocks that struck his boat's hull.

This Spring, I cautioned that same neighbor that he was going to lose seven leaning trees of mixed hardwood species from his shoreline—and now was the time to cut them for firewood.



I didn't say that he'd lose them one tree at a time.




Another neighbor is trying to restore a small sandy area you could call a "submerged beach". He moves the large gravel from neighbors' driveways that washes down with every thunderstorm. That driveway was poorly redesigned when the new "spec-built-and-oversized" McMansion was built. Three antagonistic property owners share that driveway so it doesn't get fixed.

​​​•​ ​​This past summer, as a "preliminary test", we placed a single concrete block against our shoreline found that boat wakes would move it around.

​​​•​ ​​Last week, for science , I constructed a small structure (a cairn) of a few concrete blocks buttressed and weighted with handy rocks in ankle-deep water and photographed it. The purpose of this shallow-water cairn is to study the effects of Winter's storm winds and ice, and to contrast any effects after the passing of a year.

As I'd made annual limnology calls to the late Jody Connor of NHDES, I think he would approve...



.
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Old 01-06-2016, 09:46 PM   #39
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Default rock's

Yes, I have moved rock's out deeper and also dug around and under using a scuba tank as to sink them.
Michael
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Does anyone have any tips on relocating rocks in shallow areas of the lake.
As the lake level drops more of these rocks are hindering boat access to our dock. I would like to move some of these 10 or 15 feet away so that there is safe access.

Ideas I have been thinking about:
building a rock sled out of either wood or repurposed conveyour belts and attaching it to a come along or even pull some with the boat.

Has anyone tried either of these?
Has anyone used a bottle hydraulic jack to lift rocks up and then roll them on pvc pipes

I know people have moved lake rocks forever, I am just trying to learn from other's experiences


thanks so much
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Old 01-07-2016, 04:21 PM   #40
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Wish someone would move the big one at the end of Sally's Gut.....
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Old 01-07-2016, 04:41 PM   #41
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Yes, I have moved rock's out deeper and also dug around and under using a scuba tank as to sink them.
Michael
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Old 01-07-2016, 08:00 PM   #42
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"Never write if you can speak; never speak if you can nod; never nod if you can wink."

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Howie Carr Too!
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Old 01-07-2016, 08:28 PM   #43
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Howie Carr Too!
That's where I heard it originally. Pretty sure he generally attributes it though.
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