Seaplane Base and runway 19 Mile Bay Proposed

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

I'm open to a rational discussion but you keep adding things in that aren't true. I understand your opposition but you are twisting things into something it is not.

You are reading into things and letting your emotion get a hold of you.

I stand by my comment that loading and unloading will not take any longer than a boat. You making a statement that I will be at the dock for a half an hour is incorrect.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Then disclose what you would consider to be the maximum time your plane would be at the town dock on any given day, and how you get to that amount of time. Hiding behind assertions of “emotion” getting in the way of rational discussion and questions isn’t helpful to your cause. These are real and legitimate questions that you are refusing to answer here and instead respond with intentional ambiguities.

Town residents aren’t naive. We know what it takes to run a successful business. And a few minutes every couple hours at the dock doesn’t add up.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Then disclose what you would consider to be the maximum time your plane would be at the town dock on any given day, and how you get to that amount of time. Hiding behind assertions of “emotion” getting in the way of rational discussion and questions isn’t helpful to your cause. These are real and legitimate questions that you are refusing to answer here and instead respond with intentional ambiguities.

Town residents aren’t naive. We know what it takes to run a successful business. And a few minutes every couple hours at the dock doesn’t add up.

You say I'm hiding information. Do you think I would come on to this forum and answer questions if I were hiding?

I grew up in this town. I went to high school here.

I have never made any accusations that the people of this town are not smart. That would be insulting myself.

I could give a hypothetical like I did to the selectman and the fireman, but I cannot be specific because the business has not started. You know this you are just being an antagonist. Again I invite you to call me at anytime and discuss rather than be a keyboard warrior in disguise. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like you are being extremely disrespectful.

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.

Again I ask for your name so we can keep this respectful and transparent.

However, this is a distraction from the issue at hand which is asking the town to lower the docks posts.

You are framing your argument as anti-business use of the town pier. There are businesses using the pier now.

If your argument is anti-airplane then that is a completely different argument and discriminatory.

Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

You say I'm hiding information. Do you think I would come on to this forum and answer questions if I were hiding?

I grew up in this town. I went to high school here.

I have never made any accusations that the people of this town are not smart. That would be insulting myself.

I could give a hypothetical like I did to the selectman and the fireman, but I cannot be specific because the business has not started. You know this you are just being an antagonist. Again I invite you to call me at anytime and discuss rather than be a keyboard warrior in disguise. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like you are being extremely disrespectful.

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.

Again I ask for your name so we can keep this respectful and transparent.

However, this is a distraction from the issue at hand which is asking the town to lower the docks posts.

You are framing your argument as anti-business use of the town pier. There are businesses using the pier now.

If your argument is anti-airplane then that is a completely different argument and discriminatory.

Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

So we’re starting to get some helpful information here, thank you. Based on that, the maximum flights would be around 9 per day. And how long per flight would you be at the dock? You already said each flight is only 30 mins in the air. So what am I missing as to how you would not be at the dock for approx a half hour per flight, ie up to 4.5 hours per day?

I am being as respectful as I can. Pressing you for answers is not disrespectful. You came onto a semi-public forum to plead your case. Expect to be pressed.

You keep asking that we take this discussion private. But that is part of the problem you first encountered by trying to use town property for commercial purposes without meaningful public disclosure. The public should hear your answers and see this discussion. As you can see from my profile, I am a Tuftonboro island resident—pressing for more is just attempting to suppress discussion on this forum over something you, not I, need town approval for.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

You say I'm hiding information. Do you think I would come on to this forum and answer questions if I were hiding?

I grew up in this town. I went to high school here.

I have never made any accusations that the people of this town are not smart. That would be insulting myself.

I could give a hypothetical like I did to the selectman and the fireman, but I cannot be specific because the business has not started. You know this you are just being an antagonist. Again I invite you to call me at anytime and discuss rather than be a keyboard warrior in disguise. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like you are being extremely disrespectful.

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.

Again I ask for your name so we can keep this respectful and transparent.

However, this is a distraction from the issue at hand which is asking the town to lower the docks posts.

You are framing your argument as anti-business use of the town pier. There are businesses using the pier now.

If your argument is anti-airplane then that is a completely different argument and discriminatory.

Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I guess I'm caught up in the timing piece. 10-7 with one flight per hour is 8 or 9 taxiings/loadings/unloadings/safety briefings. I can't imagine that process being less than half an hour? That being the case, and adding some time to wait for late/slow passengers, I gotta think you'd be using the public space for at least 4-5 hours a day? And let's say you've got an empty slot—where would the plane go then?

It sounds like you've got the taking off/landing piece and other details thought out, but, as a boater who uses those public docks, I'm struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there.

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[winni83]

Perhaps Epic and the Dive employ the same public relations consultant??

[DEJ]

There are plenty of businesses that use the town owned wharf but do not base their business off of it. Like think said I also am struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there. Guess time will tell, anyone know when the public hearing will be?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by DEJ

There are plenty of businesses that use the town owned wharf but do not base their business off of it. Like think said I also am struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there. Guess time will tell, anyone know when the public hearing will be?

That is an assumption that is incorrect on your part. The business is not based at the town dock.

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

My FAA approved operating certificate allows me to pick up and drop off anywhere that it is legal. There are no stipulations attached. Someone could reserve a flight from anywhere in the area and I would be able to pick them up and drop them off as long as I had access. I am simply asking for equal access to the town pier.

I hope that message is loud and clear.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

That is an assumption that is incorrect on your part. The business is not based at the town dock.

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

My FAA approved operating certificate allows me to pick up and drop off anywhere that it is legal. There are no stipulations attached. Someone could reserve a flight from anywhere in the area and I would be able to pick them up and drop them off as long as I had access. I am simply asking for equal access to the town pier.

I hope that message is loud and clear.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Your message is loud and clear and it appears the good folks in Tuftonboro see right through your attempt to use town property for your private business. You are not helping yourself with these comments. Perhaps we should thank you for them. When is the public hearing or whatever you want to call it going to be Epic?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Invoking “discrimination” here is borderline offensive and not at all what is going on. If you are referring to the barges, see discussion above as to how those are being used as a necessity for town island residents to inhabit the islands.

The town wharf is not open for commercial use on a first come first serve basis. I can’t park my food truck there all day. A realtor can’t locate a sales shed there. A seaplane tour/charter business is not different.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Invoking “discrimination” here is borderline offensive and not at all what is going on. If you are referring to the barges, see discussion above as to how those are being used as a necessity for town island residents to inhabit the islands.

The town wharf is not open for commercial use on a first come first serve basis. I can’t park my food truck there all day. A realtor can’t locate a sales shed there. A seaplane tour/charter business is not different.

Your comparisons are completely absurd. I think the more you talk I think the more the lurking readers of this forum see your point of view. I appreciate you exposing that and discussing this with me. You are completely discriminating against me because I fly an airplane.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

STOP the discrimination nonsense Epic!!! We are posting our opinions. I ask again when is the public hearing on your proposal scheduled for?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by DEJ

STOP the discrimination nonsense Epic!!! We are posting our opinions. I ask again when is the public hearing on your proposal scheduled for?

By definition it is discrimination...

noun
1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Sundancer320]

So, you came on here looking for an open discussion and when you’re pressed you get obstinate and a bit unhinged. It does not help your case by accusing people who will be affected by this operation of discrimination and insulting them. You’re argument of the barge use at the town dock is laughable. No matter how you slice it you are going to “base” your enterprise on the town dock and make money from its use. Residents who use the barges for delivery of supplies do so only sparingly, maybe once a season. You’re talking about several days a week, several times a day. If a barge operator were to sit at the town dock and hit up people for work or services, you might have a point. Even if you want to play semantics and say it’s not based there because you’re office is really in the garage at home, you’re still operating the business from a common place. The town dock.

[DEJ]

Epic, when is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Your comparisons are completely absurd. I think the more you talk I think the more the lurking readers of this forum see your point of view. I appreciate you exposing that and discussing this with me. You are completely discriminating against me because I fly an airplane.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[mhtranger]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.

As I see it it is quite different, the barge loads good and vacates the dock. Maybe there an hour or so as material is secured to the deck. To not return until the next load. Maybe same day maybe not.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by mhtranger

As I see it it is quite different, the barge loads good and vacates the dock. Maybe there an hour or so as material is secured to the deck. To not return until the next load. Maybe same day maybe not.

This is a good point. I will add that in all my years in Tuftonboro and regular use of the town wharf, I have seen a barge there less than a half dozen times. And never on the weekend, which is the busiest time for use of the wharf, and which would presumably be the same for prime operation of a charter/tour business.

[knowit]

I am in the process of having “No seaplanes at Union Wharf!” bumper stickers printed up. I will advise when they are available. We need to stop the for profit use of a town owned asset right now! Build your own damn dock!

[knowit]

And here’s another option for you, I know the Pier 19 Marina has an entire side of a dock finger they aren’t using. Why don’t you ask them for permission to use it?
Oh, that’s right, the Pier 19 Store is at war with their own association. She’s such a great business owner that she tried to block their access to their own docks! No thanks, we don’t need her entitled crap.

[Sundancer320]

I think this venture has too much liability exposure to the town. All it takes is one clumsy, overweight, near sighted, inebriated etc... passenger to take a tumble off the plane/dock/float and get seriously injured for the town to be pulled into a lawsuit. I spent my life in aviation and a lot of time working around floatplanes. It can be hazardous..I don’t care how much training or experience an operator has. Sometimes they can’t control the unknown factor called “passenger”

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by Sundancer320

I think this venture has too much liability exposure to the town. All it takes is one clumsy, overweight, near sighted, inebriated etc... passenger to take a tumble off the plane/dock/float and get seriously injured for the town to be pulled into a lawsuit. I spent my life in aviation and a lot of time working around floatplanes. It can be hazardous..I don’t care how much training or experience an operator has. Sometimes they can’t control the unknown factor called “passenger”

Sorry please tell me how this is any different than people coming up to the dock with a boat?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by knowit

I am in the process of having “No seaplanes at Union Wharf!” bumper stickers printed up. I will advise when they are available. We need to stop the for profit use of a town owned asset right now! Build your own damn dock!

So you can put it next to your " coexist" sticker.

I get it, you don't want Seaplanes there, but other commercial operations are completely fine.

Logical.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[knowit]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

So you can put it next to your " coexist" sticker.

I get it, you don't want Seaplanes there, but other commercial operations are completely fine.

Logical.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Your condescending attitude is not helping your cause very much.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by knowit

Your condescending attitude is not helping your cause very much.

We just want to be all inclusive, not single out anyone, or any business, and promote the town.

We live this town, we love this lake, and we love you too. I would never try to block access to a public pier. Not for a barge, a boat, an airboat (with a big scary propeller), not anyone...

I'm working with the town to have the dock posts lowered to allow for safer access to the dock for everyone. I'm sure the barge owners would love the posts lowered too. Loading and unloading equipment is very difficult with the dock posts so high.

This is a win for everyone and the town.

Even if the town decided that a commercial operator cannot access the pier we then shift directly to the access for a private owner so the issue doesn't go away at all.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Epic, for the sake of conversation what if the town says no to your proposed modification of the wharf posts so you can operate your scenic flights from town property?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I like planes. And I probably would’ve been a customer if you had a private base or were located at an airport. Not a town owned wharf. And my verdict is still open if you were based at a private dock in the bay (I would want to better understand the safety issues there).

Tell me, please. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to park my food truck on the wharf for half the day? Or tie up my pontoon with an ice cream stand?

By feigning discrimination, you are ignoring the fundamental differences between basing a commercial operation on the wharf and incidental use. You say the operation would not be based there—but if tours take off there, land there, have safety briefings there, and park there, and have the plane there for half the day, it’s based there.

[DEJ]

CowTimes, he has the ability to operate his business from his private dock on mirror lake where he keeps his plane in the water much of the summer. He could advertise these scenic flights right from there and avoid the congestion and fireboat and emergency vehicle issues and wharf issues etc... by conducting his business there. Problem solved.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks

Epic Seaplane Adventures

“You don’t like airplanes we get it.”

I think you should spend a little time retreading and editing before you post. My Dad had a 172 and some of the best times with him I remember were flights to remote airports for lunch, scenic flights in the fall to NH, ME, VT airports, flying to visit relatives in the Midwest, etc. I love airplanes.

The issue here has nothing to do with airplanes. It is your request to the town to make an accommodation for you so you can run your business from town property. I have yet to hear of any barge owner asking the town to cut down the tie posts so they could run their business from the dock.

I watched the selectmen’s meeting and was appalled when the store owner commented that someone could cut the tie posts in the middle of the night. Wow, that tells me all I need to know about your partner.

I wish you luck but, your prospects appear slimmer than Sisyphus pushing his rock up the mountain.


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[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

“You don’t like airplanes we get it.”

I think you should spend a little time retreading and editing before you post. My Dad had a 172 and some of the best times with him I remember were flights to remote airports for lunch, scenic flights in the fall to NH, ME, VT airports, flying to visit relatives in the Midwest, etc. I love airplanes.

The issue here has nothing to do with airplanes. It is your request to the town to make an accommodation for you so you can run your business from town property. I have yet to hear of any barge owner asking the town to cut down the tie posts so they could run their business from the dock.

I watched the selectmen’s meeting and was appalled when the store owner commented that someone could cut the tie posts in the middle of the night. Wow, that tells me all I need to know about your partner.

I wish you luck but, your prospects appear slimmer than Sisyphus pushing his rock up the mountain.


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Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Facts, please. How high off the wharf do the posts currently extend? How high off the wharf do you want/need the posts to be? Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts? Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

P.S. I like airplanes. See my avatar.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

Facts, please. How high off the wharf do the posts currently extend? How high off the wharf do you want/need the posts to be? Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts? Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

P.S. I like airplanes. See my avatar.

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened? How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside? When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be? It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

[knowit]

If you want shorter posts, maybe you should try not quoting people and then adding your snobby, entitled, and condescending comments. Man your posts are hard to follow Epic.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Please stop with the platitudes about potential private use for pilots coming in to get an ice cream at the store. If you weren’t trying to run a tour/charter business from this town dock, you wouldn’t have formed an LLC and gone through all the time and hassle to get an approved runway. The private use is just a fig leaf to waive around to suggest there are non-commercial use that would benefit. I just don’t buy it, and I still doubt that many private planes are going to fly in just to grab an ice cream when they can’t get aviation fuel.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Barges pretty much use the shallow side of the wharf as the fireboat and fish and game boat block barges from using the deeper side that most boaters use. This time of year the shallower side is fine for most all boats as water level is at full pool right now. Different story later into the summer/fall. The barges do require that the posts be higher, surely if they were cut down to deck height they could not tie up.

[Just Wonderin]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

If the posts on Union Wharf were lowered to deck height (I know you said "leaving enough for boaters to tie to") what would you suggest boats tie to? Or would adding cleats be another modification the town would need to make for the wharf? Or are you suggesting that only the posts that impede your access be modified to fit your need?

Just as an FYI the height of the posts actually do serve a purpose. The current height of the posts is about 3 feet. Many boaters use that height as an assist when entering and exiting their boat.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

No, I just happen to like airplanes. I’ve made my position pretty clear about your request for an accommodation (cutting down tie posts) and ceding part of the dock to you to run your sightseeing business. If you want to run your business you should build the costs associated w/infrastructure (docks) into your business plan.


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[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

Taxiing and safety briefings don’t occur at the dock. They probably occur simultaneously, like on a commercial airplane. Why would you think half an hour of air time translates to half an hour on the dock?


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[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Taxiing and safety briefings don’t occur at the dock. They probably occur simultaneously, like on a commercial airplane. Why would you think half an hour of air time translates to half an hour on the dock?


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That’s a good question, which I have been asking all afternoon. My guess is that there are safety and liability issues that require the safety briefing before getting on the plane, given the noise in one of these vs a commercial plane. But I haven’t got a straight answer after asking the question several times as to how long the plane would be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations (and as others pointed out, that may not be the case)

[Sundancer320]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

That’s a good question, which I have been asking all afternoon. My guess is that there are safety and liability issues that require the safety briefing before getting on the plane, given the noise in one of these vs a commercial plane. But I haven’t got a straight answer after asking the question several times as to how long the plane would be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations (and as others pointed out, that may not be the case)

This is a single pilot operation. The pilot will conduct the briefings before they leave the dock and will not be able to safely maneuver the plane while also trying to give a safety brief. My guess is once all passengers are at the plane, they will receive a 10 minute or so safety brief then load and go.

[lakewinnie]

Epic Seaplane Adventure:

I have been following this thread as best as I can. Can you please clarify:

1) Is it accurate to say that the maximum time that your seaplane would be at the dock is 4-5 hours on any one day? I believe that the maximum time I am allowed to dock my boat at some of the town docks is 3-4 hours.

2) If I understand it correctly, the plane would need to be docked for approx. 30 minutes before it takes off. How long would it be at the dock to unload the passengers after it returns?

3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

4) Where would your passenger customers park there vehicles while they are on your plane?

Thank you.

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

That is an assumption that is incorrect on your part. The business is not based at the town dock.

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

My FAA approved operating certificate allows me to pick up and drop off anywhere that it is legal. There are no stipulations attached. Someone could reserve a flight from anywhere in the area and I would be able to pick them up and drop them off as long as I had access. I am simply asking for equal access to the town pier.

I hope that message is loud and clear.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Sorry your message is loud.... but not clear. Let's get the true facts. You came to the Tuftonboro Selectman with the Pier 19 store owner to basically asking help to start a business. I saw your live youtube presentation to the Selectmen. I heard your case. I heard the store owner pleading that this has to be done now. Like it was an entitlement to her. It appeared you are basically in a partnership with the store owner. Your timing couldn't have been worst. The store has unfortunately caused other recent controversy.

It you are so determined to start your business up with the store you should help the store get permits to build multiple docks along with her gas dock. Would you not need Aviation fuel? So have the Pier 19 store ask for permits to include fuel for seaplanes plus docks for her customers and yours. I then would consider your support for helping the store succeed.

[Descant]

I'm embarrassed to think that a small NH town where a local guy grew up and went to HS, followed by extensive professional training, doesn't get local support. All he wants is to use one side of a dock that is little used because it's too shallow for many boats. If he were a dentist (nobody likes dentists) wouldn't you all support a local kid so you don't have to drive to Wolfeboro? Maybe all the whiners really aren't locals after all?
This really has nothing to do with where he will get his gas or how long he will be at the dock. That was all resolved at Mirror lake a long time ago. This is a local guy who wants to do business in a town where he grew up and all you locals should be helping him just the way you did when you paid for his public education. This is Tuftonborough. If your local kid wanted to start a local business, wouldn't you all want to hep the kid who played with your kids? In today's colloquialism "C'mon, man."

[DEJ]

Descant, no one is preventing him from running his business, he can run it from his dock on mirror lake on his state approved water runway on mirror lake. We object to him using a town of tuftonboro property to base the business from. The wharf is town property and belongs to all residents, not just him.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by DEJ

Descant, no one is preventing him from running his business, he can run it from his dock on mirror lake on his state approved water runway on mirror lake. We object to him using a town of tuftonboro property to base the business from. The wharf is town property and belongs to all residents, not just him.

You can keep saying it but it doesn't make it true...

I've already stated that the business is not based there and that I can pick up and drop off anywhere that it's legal. We just want equal access to the dock.

I think my position is very clear from what I have stated. Again there is a lot of emotion on this website and I appreciate that. The problem with the emotional argument is that there are too many examples of others using the pier for the exact reasons that you state is seaplane cannot come to the pier for. Again I state that AC plane can come to the pier. This is about lowering the dock post on the north side of the wharf.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

You can keep saying it but it doesn't make it true...

I've already stated that the business is not based there and that I can pick up and drop off anywhere that it's legal. We just want equal access to the dock.

I think my position is very clear from what I have stated. Again there is a lot of emotion on this website and I appreciate that. The problem with the emotional argument is that there are too many examples of others using the pier for the exact reasons that you state is seaplane cannot come to the pier for. Again I state that AC plane can come to the pier. This is about lowering the dock post on the north side of the wharf.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

We will just have to agree to disagree. Use of the wharf would require modification of a town property for the reason of conducting a private business from it. Run your business from your private dock on mirror lake.

[Just Wonderin]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

You can keep saying it but it doesn't make it true...

I've already stated that the business is not based there and that I can pick up and drop off anywhere that it's legal. We just want equal access to the dock.

I think my position is very clear from what I have stated. Again there is a lot of emotion on this website and I appreciate that. The problem with the emotional argument is that there are too many examples of others using the pier for the exact reasons that you state is seaplane cannot come to the pier for. Again I state that AC plane can come to the pier. This is about lowering the dock post on the north side of the wharf.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Okay, I've been following this thread since the very first post. Epic keeps reiterating that he just wants to be treated fairly and have equal access to town property AND this entire discussion is ONLY about lowering the dock posts on the side of Union Wharf (because he doesn't need anyone's permission or support to land his plane or operate a business on 19 Mile Bay) Then maybe he can answer these few questions for me.

1) How many barge services or any other local business (other than Epic and his business partner, Pier 19 Country Store) have asked to have the wharf modified for their own personal use?

2) How many islanders have asked to have town property modified so they can experience a financial gain from their island-based business? (Because Epic has already made it very clear that his business is not based at Union Wharf)

3) How many boaters have docked, multiple times per day, at publicly owned property every single Saturday and Sunday (weather permitting)?

[Force5]

I thought exactly the same thing! Adult beverages or something else. Absurd to say the least. He is getting crazier and crazier

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I guess I'm caught up in the timing piece. 10-7 with one flight per hour is 8 or 9 taxiings/loadings/unloadings/safety briefings. I can't imagine that process being less than half an hour? That being the case, and adding some time to wait for late/slow passengers, I gotta think you'd be using the public space for at least 4-5 hours a day? And let's say you've got an empty slot—where would the plane go then?

It sounds like you've got the taking off/landing piece and other details thought out, but, as a boater who uses those public docks, I'm struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Thanks for your opinion. I have a question for you. When you dock at the town pier in your boat what is the time limit before someone asks you to leave?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Thanks for your opinion. I have a question for you. When you dock at the town pier in your boat what is the time limit before someone asks you to leave?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Apples and oranges. Private use (purpose of town property) vs commercial use (not).

Please explain how both my and thinkxingu got the math wrong here on how long you’d be using the town wharf (and refer to prior discussion of evading direct questions with intentional ambiguities).

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Apples and oranges. Private use (purpose of town property) vs commercial use (not).

Please explain how both my and thinkxingu got the math wrong here on how long you’d be using the town wharf (and refer to prior discussion of evading direct questions with intentional ambiguities).

First off I am completely open to civil discussion and answering questions.

As a resident of cow Island you should know that there are plenty of people who use the town pier to make money. Ie commercial barges. Are you insinuating that commercial barges should be treated differently?

I think you are the one that is mixing apples and oranges. You make an argument that business shouldn't be able to use the town dock. But you yourself higher businesses that use the town dock. That is the definition of hypocrisy.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

First off I am completely open to civil discussion and answering questions.

As a resident of cow Island you should know that there are plenty of people who use the town pier to make money. Ie commercial barges. Are you insinuating that commercial barges should be treated differently?

I think you are the one that is mixing apples and oranges. You make an argument that business shouldn't be able to use the town dock. But you yourself higher businesses that use the town dock. That is the definition of hypocrisy.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

You still haven’t answered my and thinkxingu‘s direct question...

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

First off I am completely open to civil discussion and answering questions.

...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I have gone back through this thread, and gathered what appear to be all of the legitimate questions that have been unanswered (I omitted what appeared to be rhetorical questions). Apologies to any forum members that posed questions I may have missed. It would be helpful to have direct, responsive answers to each of these questions:

(1) How long would your tour plane be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations? You have said the potential plan is to operate from 10am-7pm, with one flight per hour, and a half hour air time per flight. If that’s the case, are you not planning to be at the dock for approximately a half hour per flight (or close to a half hour) for safety briefings, loading, unloading, etc.? Please tell us how we got the math wrong here, and how much time you would be at the dock (assuming back-to-back reservations), and how you calculate to get to that amount of time.

(2) What do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land and there are no open docks for an hour? What happens to your next reservations?

(3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

(4) Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

(5) Where would your passenger customers park their vehicles while they are on your plane?

(6) Under your view of appropriate use of a town-owned wharf for commercial business, why shouldn’t a food truck be allowed to park on the wharf for half the day to sell to the public? Or permit a pontoon boat with an ice cream stand to tie up to the wharf? Is your position that commercial use of the dock is permissible by all and is on a daily first-come basis? (Your comparison to intermittent barge use has been extensively addressed above; a rehash of that isn’t helpful; it would be helpful to see where you draw the line on commercial use of town property)

(7) Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?

(8) Why don’t you run the sightseeing flights out of your base on Mirror Lake? You disparage town residents as having a “NIMBY” mindset. Are you not running this out of your base on Mirror Lake because you don’t want to upset your own neighbors running 8 flights out and 8 flights in per day? Or are you not permitted to use your residence for commercial operations?

(9) When is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

I have gone back through this thread, and gathered what appear to be all of the legitimate questions that have been unanswered (I omitted what appeared to be rhetorical questions). Apologies to any forum members that posed questions I may have missed. It would be helpful to have direct, responsive answers to each of these questions:

(1) How long would your tour plane be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations? You have said the potential plan is to operate from 10am-7pm, with one flight per hour, and a half hour air time per flight. If that’s the case, are you not planning to be at the dock for approximately a half hour per flight (or close to a half hour) for safety briefings, loading, unloading, etc.? Please tell us how we got the math wrong here, and how much time you would be at the dock (assuming back-to-back reservations), and how you calculate to get to that amount of time.

(2) What do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land and there are no open docks for an hour? What happens to your next reservations?

(3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

(4) Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

(5) Where would your passenger customers park their vehicles while they are on your plane?

(6) Under your view of appropriate use of a town-owned wharf for commercial business, why shouldn’t a food truck be allowed to park on the wharf for half the day to sell to the public? Or permit a pontoon boat with an ice cream stand to tie up to the wharf? Is your position that commercial use of the dock is permissible by all and is on a daily first-come basis? (Your comparison to intermittent barge use has been extensively addressed above; a rehash of that isn’t helpful; it would be helpful to see where you draw the line on commercial use of town property)

(7) Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?

(8) Why don’t you run the sightseeing flights out of your base on Mirror Lake? You disparage town residents as having a “NIMBY” mindset. Are you not running this out of your base on Mirror Lake because you don’t want to upset your own neighbors running 8 flights out and 8 flights in per day? Or are you not permitted to use your residence for commercial operations?

(9) When is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

Epic, if I were a cop, here’s the advice I’d give you: “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion, and at the Town’s hearings.” Apparently some of these people have way too much time on their hands, and seem to be playing “Town Official”. If it were me, I’d play submarine captain, call the diving officer and go silent and deep. Again, good luck.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Epic, if I were a cop, here’s the advice I’d give you: “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion, and at the Town’s hearings.” Apparently some of these people have way too much time on their hands, and seem to be playing “Town Official”. If it were me, I’d play submarine captain, call the diving officer and go silent and deep. Again, good luck.

That is good advice if one does not want to engage with the public and be transparent.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

That is good advice if one does not want to engage with the public and be transparent.

Engaging with the public is fine with the appropriate, moderated Town hearings, not on these social media forums.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Engaging with the public is fine with the appropriate, moderated Town hearings, not on these social media forums.

Respectfully, Seaplane, if you watch the video of the last Selectmen’s meeting, you will see that the proponents are trying to push this through without a public town hearing. And the proponents affirmatively came on this forum to plead their case and are appropriately being pressed for answers to some very logical and basic questions.

[rander7823]

Skydive Laconia to some extent

[knowit]

Available soon

[Sundancer320]

All good questions from CowTimes. I hope he answers these without throwing insults at us “rubes” who are just too emotional to see the brilliance of their plan.

The most important question is why not use Mirror Lake as the base? It’s a 30 second plane flight over Winnipesaukee and has considerable less boat traffic.

I think we all know the answer to that: the store owner wants traffic in her store and knows she won’t be able to use her own dock for it.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

I have gone back through this thread, and gathered what appear to be all of the legitimate questions that have been unanswered (I omitted what appeared to be rhetorical questions). Apologies to any forum members that posed questions I may have missed. It would be helpful to have direct, responsive answers to each of these questions:

(1) How long would your tour plane be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations? You have said the potential plan is to operate from 10am-7pm, with one flight per hour, and a half hour air time per flight. If that’s the case, are you not planning to be at the dock for approximately a half hour per flight (or close to a half hour) for safety briefings, loading, unloading, etc.? Please tell us how we got the math wrong here, and how much time you would be at the dock (assuming back-to-back reservations), and how you calculate to get to that amount of time.

(2) What do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land and there are no open docks for an hour? What happens to your next reservations?

(3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

(4) Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

(5) Where would your passenger customers park their vehicles while they are on your plane?

(6) Under your view of appropriate use of a town-owned wharf for commercial business, why shouldn’t a food truck be allowed to park on the wharf for half the day to sell to the public? Or permit a pontoon boat with an ice cream stand to tie up to the wharf? Is your position that commercial use of the dock is permissible by all and is on a daily first-come basis? (Your comparison to intermittent barge use has been extensively addressed above; a rehash of that isn’t helpful; it would be helpful to see where you draw the line on commercial use of town property)

(7) Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?

(8) Why don’t you run the sightseeing flights out of your base on Mirror Lake? You disparage town residents as having a “NIMBY” mindset. Are you not running this out of your base on Mirror Lake because you don’t want to upset your own neighbors running 8 flights out and 8 flights in per day? Or are you not permitted to use your residence for commercial operations?

(9) When is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

Do you need a job? I'll hire you for my logistics manager. I know you are curious about how people run their companies, but do you wonder what other commercial operators do when they aren't picking up and dropping off at the pier? That's not a sarcastic question. Do you treat them with the same respect?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you need a job? I'll hire you for my logistics manager. I know you are curious about how people run their companies, but do you wonder what other commercial operators do when they aren't picking up and dropping off at the pier? That's not a sarcastic question. Do you treat them with the same respect?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

These are entirely fair questions for a business that is seeking to use public property as its base of operations. Not a single business in this town or any other in the state is permitted to use public property in the manner you seek without a license, paying for it, having a contract with indemnification obligations to the municipality, and often providing a bond for the obligations since these types of operations are often undercapitalized (I’m not suggesting you are, but these are the issues diligence in public contracting involve).

And please, stop with the barge comparison. The barges use the wharf intermittently what, maybe an hour or two a week, as the public access for island residents, and have never to my knowledge displaced any other use of the dock. Nor are they based on the town dock. Your sole in-person interaction on land with your customers will be on the town dock. You are proposing to use the dock as a base for your business, as demonstrated by the math above that your plane would be there for 4-5 hours a day if fully booked, and even longer if not fully booked. Not all the barge companies combined, nor any member of the public, use the town wharf as extensively as you seek to. So, yes, when you are effectively asking the town to subsidize your business by providing you a business base for free, these are the types of questions you can expect.

And as for my employment status, I do fine for myself without asking the public to subsidize my business. Please stay on topic and be respectful, as I have tried to do here in posing legitimate questions and demonstrating the problems with your public positions and statements.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

These are entirely fair questions for a business that is seeking to use public property as its base of operations. Not a single business in this town or any other in the state is permitted to use public property in the manner you seek without a license, paying for it, having a contract with indemnification obligations to the municipality, and often providing a bond for the obligations since these types of operations are often undercapitalized (I’m not suggesting you are, but these are the issues diligence in public contracting involve).

And please, stop with the barge comparison. The barges use the wharf intermittently what, maybe an hour or two a week, as the public access for island residents, and have never to my knowledge displaced any other use of the dock. Nor are they based on the town dock. Your sole in-person interaction on land with your customers will be on the town dock. You are proposing to use the dock as a base for your business, as demonstrated by the math above that your plane would be there for 4-5 hours a day if fully booked, and even longer if not fully booked. Not all the barge companies combined, nor any member of the public, use the town wharf as extensively as you seek to. So, yes, when you are effectively asking the town to subsidize your business by providing you a business base for free, these are the types of questions you can expect.

And as for my employment status, I do fine for myself without asking the public to subsidize my business. Please stay on topic and be respectful, as I have tried to do here in posing legitimate questions and demonstrating the problems with your public positions and statements.

So you do finally admit that there are people who use the dock for commercial purposes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Epic, when is the public hearing for your proposed modifications to town property so that you can run your business from town property?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by DEJ

Epic, when is the public hearing for your proposed business that you want to run from town property?

Hello, it's not set yet. The selectman have requested a step prior to this, in the process. Insert sarcasm, yes a process! One that is being followed!

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Mr. Wood:
When you joined this discussion yesterday, you said that you “would like to address everyone’s concerns… feel free to ask… we are open, honest and not afraid of any questions.” I applaud this attitude, and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but… you have not answered questions that I have directly and clearly asked, sometimes multiple times. The result is that I am beginning to wonder if you are being purposely evasive, perhaps because you are afraid that disclosing the true nature of your proposed business operations would paint a negative picture of commercial seaplane activity that relies on the publicly owned Union Wharf in Tuftonboro.
Please live up to the words in your first post and answer these questions:

“For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.”
If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened?

How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside?

When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be?

It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

So you do finally admit that there are people who use the dock for commercial purposes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

So you do finally admit your business will be based on town property?

As noted about five times previously, yes, there are INCIDENTAL commercial uses (Ctrl-F for incidental) by barges, island realtors, and probably many others no one sees and that do not interfere. You ignore the fundamental difference between incidental commercial use of public property and basing ones entire business off public property.

Another example. Photographers often take clients to public parks (eg Wolfeboro by the docks) to take pictures. That doesn’t mean a photographer can set up his or her office, studio, framing and printing facility in the gazebo there. That’s the difference between incidental commercial use, and basing a business on public property. I don’t think you’re confused about the difference, you just want the town and its residents to ignore it.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

So you do finally admit your business will be based on town property?

As noted about five times previously, yes, there are INCIDENTAL commercial uses (Ctrl-F for incidental) by barges, island realtors, and probably many others no one sees and that do not interfere. You ignore the fundamental difference between incidental commercial use of public property and basing ones entire business off public property.

Another example. Photographers often take clients to public parks (eg Wolfeboro by the docks) to take pictures. That doesn’t mean a photographer can set up his or her office, studio, framing and printing facility in the gazebo there. That’s the difference between incidental commercial use, and basing a business on public property. I don’t think you’re confused about the difference, you just want the town and its residents to ignore it.

Respectfully, Please site the law, regulation, or town ordinance that you are referring to please. I have done this...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Respectfully, Please site the law, regulation, or town ordinance that you are referring to please. I have done this...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Respectfully, this is a pretty basic legal concept that you should have raised with a lawyer before you started all this. But since you asked, this is adopted in one form or another in virtually all states and municipalities. One example from the town of Tuftonboro that you really should have read before you started this “process”:

Tuftonboro Docking and Parking Ordinance (relevant excerpts):

C. UNION WHARF

THIS TOWN-OWNED WHARF AND BOAT LAUNCH FACILITY IS AVAILABLE FOR USE BY THE PUBLIC AS A TEMPORARY DOCKING AND BOAT LAUNCHING FACILITY. NO OVERNIGHT DOCKING IS ALLOWED...

CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES MAY USE UNION WHARF TO LOAD AND UNLOAD SUPPLIES AND MATERIAL FOR LAKESIDE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RESTRICTIONS SET FORTH HEREIN.

. . .

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Respectfully, this is a pretty basic legal concept that you should have raised with a lawyer before you started all this. But since you asked, this is adopted in one form or another in virtually all states and municipalities. One example from the town of Tuftonboro that you really should have read before you started this “process”:

Tuftonboro Docking and Parking Ordinance (relevant excerpts):

C. UNION WHARF

THIS TOWN-OWNED WHARF AND BOAT LAUNCH FACILITY IS AVAILABLE FOR USE BY THE PUBLIC AS A TEMPORARY DOCKING AND BOAT LAUNCHING FACILITY. NO OVERNIGHT DOCKING IS ALLOWED...

CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES MAY USE UNION WHARF TO LOAD AND UNLOAD SUPPLIES AND MATERIAL FOR LAKESIDE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RESTRICTIONS SET FORTH HEREIN.

. . .

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.

Sounds good. Thanks.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.

In fairness to everyone, the rest of the sentence you quote form the Docking and Parking Ordinance says "...without written permission of the Town board of selectmen or its designee." So I don't think an ordinance change (or town meeting) would be required to allow a commercial watercraft to use the Union Wharf for more than one hour; written permission from the Board of Selectmen appears to be all that is needed.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

In fairness to everyone, the rest of the sentence you quote form the Docking and Parking Ordinance says "...without written permission of the Town board of selectmen or its designee." So I don't think an ordinance change (or town meeting) would be required to allow a commercial watercraft to use the Union Wharf for more than one hour; written permission from the Board of Selectmen appears to be all that is needed.

Yes, and that is clearly an exception for intermittent use, such as a barge needing an extra half hour on a random day. The general prohibition is against commercial use except for an hour. I’m fairly certain the selectmen would not view their authority to extend to permit a commercial enterprise to be based on the town dock by virtue of their ability to let a commercial vessel dock intermittently beyond one hour. What is being proposed is far beyond the limited exception the ordinance provides.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Yes, and that is clearly an exception for intermittent use, such as a barge needing an extra half hour on a random day. The general prohibition is against commercial use except for an hour. I’m fairly certain the selectmen would not view their authority to extend to permit a commercial enterprise to be based on the town dock by virtue of their ability to let a commercial vessel dock intermittently beyond one hour. What is being proposed is far beyond the limited exception the ordinance provides.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I see nothing in the ordinance language to indicate that written permission from the select board for commercial docking beyond one hour can only be a limited exception. Now, individual select persons may be reluctant to provide written permission that's as sweeping as Mr. Wood desires, but I don't think that the ordinance as written restricts the board from doing so.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I see nothing in the ordinance language to indicate that written permission from the select board for commercial docking beyond one hour can only be a limited exception. Now, individual select persons may be reluctant to provide written permission that's as sweeping as Mr. Wood desires, but I don't think that the ordinance as written restricts the board from doing so.

We can agree to disagree on this one. Even under your interpretation, and based on their statements at prior meetings, I don’t see the board of selectmen permitting a commercial operation being based on the wharf without at least a public hearing.

The real point of raising the ordinance (the proponent asked for legal authority on intermittent use), though, is it prohibits commercial use like the one being proposed and expressly permits barges to use it for an hour.

So hopefully we can stop with the nonsense about comparisons to barges and “discrimination” against full-on commercial operations based on the wharf for 4-5 hours per day.

[TiltonBB]

Interesting thread. And, I will give Mr. Epic credit for at least standing up and answering the questions, even if some of the answers seem a little skewed in his favor. It is also a credit that he is a long time town resident not an outsider trying to drop in, open a business, and change the rules.

A couple of questions:

1. What happens if you come back from a flight and there are no open docks for an hour?

2. Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

[Force5]

Today, Pier 19 Country Store posted on Facebook a photo of the seaplane with a caption under it saying: There’s been a rumor going around that our store is trying to set up a seaplane tour business, it is true! Then within 30 mins later she takes down the post and now says: How exciting it is to be able to have a seaplane drop in for a day. We welcome seaplanes here! I took a screen shot of the original posting.
All you naysayers please watch the video of the meeting with the town selectmen. As a previous abutter I can tell you she has no respect for her neighbors and has had issues with the DES for doing things she was not supposed to. Clearing natural vegetation in the wetland, increasing the size of the platform hanging over the lake and adding a too large propane tank in the wetlands. She was not supposed to increase the footage of her house and now has a permit to build a garage! There was discrepancy of two wetland delineations. Funny how the first delineation didn’t get her what she wanted and then had another one done. I don’t know how the state approved her garage. You can go to the DES query and see for yourself. Just put in her name and read the permits. If the condo association is having a war with her, I feel their pain. Can you trust her? NO!

[Force5]

Epic,
Sorry I don't believe anything you say. I have watched this video multiple times and come up with the same thing. You want your business based at the town docks. What about the insurance and liability that the selectmen discussed. You don't bring those things up! Run the business from your own dock. Your story keeps changing. Yes many don't want a seaplane tour business run out of Nineteen Mile Bay! You persona in the selectmens meeting was anything but humble but more about "we are going to do it no matter what"! Maybe some fair acting ability. "excellent question"
"excellent question" I never thought of that when referring to the concerns of the fireboat. I urge everyone to watch this video before you comment about yay or nay. People in 19 Mile Bay please watch and comment. Are there only a few who have watched this and feel the same way? I would like to hear everyone's comment after they watch the youtube video of the meeting.
The way you went about this was deceitful. Now tell me how much more business will Pier 19 get with the tour business? If she is not getting anything but a few patrons extra from your business why is she putting her neck out. Sounds like there is more to this. The scary thing is you said if a seaplane wants to land they have to call her!!! That is very scary. Of course she would never say no. Safe or not safe.
I have no qualms about a few seaplanes landing but I do have concerns about a tour business from the public dock.
This tour business is not going to help her store.
Watch people watch. There was no mention of a TOUR BUSINESS. Now that is deceitful!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Force5

Epic,
Sorry I don't believe anything you say. I have watched this video multiple times and come up with the same thing. You want your business based at the town docks. What about the insurance and liability that the selectmen discussed. You don't bring those things up! Run the business from your own dock. Your story keeps changing. Yes many don't want a seaplane tour business run out of Nineteen Mile Bay! You persona in the selectmens meeting was anything but humble but more about "we are going to do it no matter what"! Maybe some fair acting ability. "excellent question"
"excellent question" I never thought of that when referring to the concerns of the fireboat. I urge everyone to watch this video before you comment about yay or nay. People in 19 Mile Bay please watch and comment. Are there only a few who have watched this and feel the same way? I would like to hear everyone's comment after they watch the youtube video of the meeting.
The way you went about this was deceitful. Now tell me how much more business will Pier 19 get with the tour business? If she is not getting anything but a few patrons extra from your business why is she putting her neck out. Sounds like there is more to this. The scary thing is you said if a seaplane wants to land they have to call her!!! That is very scary. Of course she would never say no. Safe or not safe.
I have no qualms about a few seaplanes landing but I do have concerns about a tour business from the public dock.
This tour business is not going to help her store.
Watch people watch. There was no mention of a TOUR BUSINESS. Now that is deceitful!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys

So this video is very interesting. I don't think it shows ESA or Pier 19 in sort of damaging light. What it does show is that the town selectmen, Peir 19 owner and even ESA, don't have the proper knowledge about boating laws in the state.

If offshore boats go ripping up and down that bay, causing a noise issue. The governing body is not the town at all, nor can the town do anything about it. What would happen would be that the Marine Patrol would be called. They could and would come to the area, perform field noise tests, and order any non-conforming boats off the lake......I know that law well, and how it is enforced.

What I believe this video show is an open dialogue between the town, ESA, and Peir19.... It seems to me the correct process are actually going on... I found it interesting that one of the Selectman even acknowledge that nothing wrong was done, that the state owns the water. What we seem to have here on the forum, is some very loud lobbyists against the idea. Absolutely no different then what happened on this forum with the speed limit on the lake.....

To those lobbyist, be loud that is your right, but ESA, has just laid out his number and name, for people to contact.... Will you do the same, I would love to talk to you and get your side of the story as well.....I am all about listening because the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Thanks for your opinion. I have a question for you. When you dock at the town pier in your boat what is the time limit before someone asks you to leave?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

The differences are:
1. I'm not making money off of using the public space.
2. It's once every-so-often, not every day or multiple days.
3. It's for one period of time, not a whole portion of day.

Also, what do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land?

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[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I guess I'm caught up in the timing piece. 10-7 with one flight per hour is 8 or 9 taxiings/loadings/unloadings/safety briefings. I can't imagine that process being less than half an hour? That being the case, and adding some time to wait for late/slow passengers, I gotta think you'd be using the public space for at least 4-5 hours a day? And let's say you've got an empty slot—where would the plane go then?

It sounds like you've got the taking off/landing piece and other details thought out, but, as a boater who uses those public docks, I'm struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there.

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He’s not at the dock when he’s taxiing. And safety briefings can occur when he’s taxiing. When do commercial airlines do their safety briefings? ��


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