Boating Accident/Death off Diamond Island

[Seadoo]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Here's the problem I have in this case....and any case where someone is navigating the lake at night. Ericas boat was not a "Cheapy". Any boat like that would have a "Moving Map GPS". I have a 20' runabout..and I have a Moving Map GPS. Pretty bullit proof...it glows in the dark. At night I pay attention to the GPS.

hmm interesting it is ALMOST as if you THINK you know what you are talking about. Im going to take a wild guess and say that your 20 foot runabout gps system was installed after so. Ever taken a look at the prices on the GPS systems that come with formula boats?? (they are cheap and not worth the money) In most cases it is more "bang for your buck" to get one after market.

[VtSteve]

why SKIP is now a new member named Breakwater?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

why SKIP is now a new member named Breakwater?

Nope Steve, you didn't miss anything.

I have no idea who breakwater is....but I can assure you that I do not have a duplicate account here.

Skip

[VtSteve]

I must have been temporarily dazed by the good weather we had here this weekend. I wasn't even in a lounge or anything

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Seadoo

hmm interesting it is ALMOST as if you THINK you know what you are talking about. Im going to take a wild guess and say that your 20 foot runabout gps system was installed after so. Ever taken a look at the prices on the GPS systems that come with formula boats?? (they are cheap and not worth the money) In most cases it is more "bang for your buck" to get one after market.

Not quite sure what you are talking about the Formula GPS's not being good. The GPS in the boat being driven should have looked something like this.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Seadoo

hmm interesting it is ALMOST as if you THINK you know what you are talking about. Im going to take a wild guess and say that your 20 foot runabout gps system was installed after so. Ever taken a look at the prices on the GPS systems that come with formula boats?? (they are cheap and not worth the money) In most cases it is more "bang for your buck" to get one after market.

You are Funny Seadoo. I presume by your screen name that your mode of nautical transportation is a Seadoo...or shall we say JetSki. No problem there. To each his own.

My own background is as follows..In Brief: I sailed my own boat to Bermuda and back..Singlehanded, in 1979, and did it again in 1981. I used Celestial Navigation. There was no GPS then and LORAN "C" was only coming on line in it's infantsy. I have followed modern navigation developments since then and GPS WORKS. It doesn't matter how much you pay for GPS...the only thing different is "Features". The accuracy is pretty much the same.

SO: YES: I think I know what I'm talking about.

[Seadoo]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

You are Funny Seadoo. I presume by your screen name that your mode of nautical transportation is a Seadoo...or shall we say JetSki. No problem there. To each his own.

My own background is as follows..In Brief: I sailed my own boat to Bermuda and back..Singlehanded, in 1979, and did it again in 1981. I used Celestial Navigation. There was no GPS then and LORAN "C" was only coming on line in it's infantsy. I have followed modern navigation developments since then and GPS WORKS. It doesn't matter how much you pay for GPS...the only thing different is "Features". The accuracy is pretty much the same.

SO: YES: I think I know what I'm talking about.

wow congrats you know a SEA DOO is a jet ski, nothing gets by anyone on this forum.

also congrats on sailing you own boat to bermuda and back, and singledhanded wow you must feel great!

The funny thing about all the computers that run our lives is that they misread data and sometimes are worse then boating the "old" way, using land points around the water ways to help one get from point A to point B. Regaurdless on what GPS system one is using they still do fail more so in the rain and stormy weather, as it was that night.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Seadoo

Regaurdless on what GPS system one is using they still do fail more so in the rain and stormy weather, as it was that night.

???? WHAT ???? You make this comment based on what evidence?

Can anyone back up this statement. Does GPS fail in the rain?

[TomC]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

???? WHAT ???? You make this comment based on what evidence?

Can anyone back up this statement. Does GPS fail in the rain?

rain, moisture, fog, heavy cloud cover (any atmospheric condition that is "conductive") can attenuate RF. So it isn't necessarily a matter of "failing", but a degradation that may result in less frequent positional updates due to weak(er) signals. In the extreme, yes, loss of signal could occur which would render the device inoperative.

[Pineedles]

I know my Garmin has a hard time "Locating Satellites" when it I turn it on if there are storm clouds and rain; but it eventually comes on-line. It sometimes messages "Waiting for Better Accuracy" if it is really cloudy.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Pineedles

I know my Garmin has a hard time "Locating Satellites" when it I turn it on if there are storm clouds and rain; but it eventually comes on-line. It sometimes messages "Waiting for Better Accuracy" if it is really cloudy.

The problem I have had with GPS accuracy on the lake is the loss of "WAAS" (Wide Area Augmentation System) which keeps your GPS accurate within 3 meters. For the life of me I can't understand why in such an open area I keep losing the WAAS signal on my GPS, and for some reason it seems worse this year than last. Does anyone else have this problem on the lake???

Without WAAS, accuracy can be as much as 100 meters off and I have personally seen this inaccuracy on my GPS. I have rarely loss total GPS / satellite signal however.

GPS is a another extra wonderful tool to HELP with navigation but should never be relied upon totally. It is NOT fail proof and it is never 100% accurate.

Dan

[upthesaukee]

see this article

http://www.landairsea.com/gps-tracki...-gps-accuracy/

[sa meredith]

Can you imagine being on the boat that night if a false GPS reading was indeed the cause of the accident?! Holy Christ! Stop and think about it for a second...try to put yourself there.
Cruising along, happy to be with good friends, and laughing about the prank you had just pulled. Maybe a small "glow on" from a beer or three (come on now, we've all been there) trusting your GPS in the fog and rain, because, well, it has never failed you before, not once. Blasting along, but keeping a close watch on your GPS screen, staying right on course, and then out of nowhere, AN ISLAND! Way too late to do a darn thing, except thing, "Wow, this really going to suck!"

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Can you imagine being on the boat that night if a false GPS reading was indeed the cause of the accident?! Holy Christ! Stop and think about it for a second...try to put yourself there.
Cruising along, happy to be with good friends, and laughing about the prank you had just pulled. Maybe a small "glow on" from a beer or three (come on now, we've all been there) trusting your GPS in the fog and rain, because, well, it has never failed you before, not once. Blasting along, but keeping a close watch on your GPS screen, staying right on course, and then out of nowhere, AN ISLAND! Way too late to do a darn thing, except thing, "Wow, this really going to suck!"

I am not relating this comment to the accident referenced in this thread specifically...

IMO, anyone who needs a TV screen to navigate at night needs to stay off the damn water. GPS, especially on a small inland lake, is a sanity check, not an auto pilot.

So, no, I cannot picture the scene you describe because there is no way I would EVER trust an electronic device to guide me in close quarters at speeds that could cause harm to vessel or person if it malfunctioned.

[BroadHopper]

Another thing you should keep in mind about GPS accuracy. The DOD owns and operates the Global Positioning System. in case of an attack on the US govt. DOD can and will change the gps algorithm. This is too confuse the enemy/attacker(s) if they use GPS for tracking their 'smart' ammunitions.

A buddy od mine who serve in the Armed Forces told me this little tidbit.

If your GPS goes crazy we must be under attack!

[Woodsy]

For those of you who might like a little better GPS reception...

http://www.gilsson.com/

Woodsy

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

I am not relating this comment to the accident referenced in this thread specifically...

IMO, anyone who needs a TV screen to navigate at night needs to stay off the damn water. GPS, especially on a small inland lake, is a sanity check, not an auto pilot.

So, no, I cannot picture the scene you describe because there is no way I would EVER trust an electronic device to guide me in close quarters at speeds that could cause harm to vessel or person if it malfunctioned.

I think you may have misinterpeted my intent...it was not to offer an excuse as to what happened, or even an explanation. Also, it was not to say needing a GPS (day or night) is right or wrong. The post was for none of those things...I simply said "imagine" if this is what happen. And how shocking an event it would have been.
You say you cannot picture (imagine) the scene I describe? Do you lack an imagination? How do you watch TV, Movies, or read books????

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

I think you may have misinterpeted my intent...it was not to offer an excuse as to what happened, or even an explanation. Also, it was not to say needing a GPS (day or night) is right or wrong. The post was for none of those things...I simply said "imagine" if this is what happen. And how shocking an event it would have been.
You say you cannot picture (imagine) the scene I describe? Do you lack an imagination? How do you watch TV, Movies, or read books????

No worries, I understood where you were coming from. You usually seem to be rational, so I got the spirit of your post. My reply wasn't meant to be lobbed at you in an accusatory manner, sometimes text doesn't translate very well, and I often tend to be kind of direct in my replies.

Could I "imagine" it from the perspective of another person, yes, of course. Could I imagine myself in that scenario? Not really?

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

I am not relating this comment to the accident referenced in this thread specifically...

IMO, anyone who needs a TV screen to navigate at night needs to stay off the damn water. GPS, especially on a small inland lake, is a sanity check, not an auto pilot.

Best point made yet! It is scary to think about someone with their head buried in a 12 inch screen cruising along at night!!!

I understood what you meant sa meredith and yes I agree if that were ever to happen I could imagine the boater being scared to death... if they survived the impact.

[sa meredith]

Yes, of course it is wrong to be cruising along, with your head buried in a screen...or even really NEEDING the screen in the first place. No one could argue against that. Wrong and dangerous.

I was simply sharing an image that popped into my head.
Not trying to start any trouble.

[lakershaker]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

I am not relating this comment to the accident referenced in this thread specifically...

IMO, anyone who needs a TV screen to navigate at night needs to stay off the damn water. GPS, especially on a small inland lake, is a sanity check, not an auto pilot.

I completely agree. GPS gives people a false sense of security, and when they are heads-down, they may be going the right way, but not aware of other boats around - which unfortunately don't show up on GPS. And even if there is radar on the boat, not all boats show on radar. I think "instument flying" at night on the lake is a huge problem, and with the proliferation of GPS, it's only going to get worse.

There is no substitute for first hand knowledge of the lake and a good current chart. The GPS is as stated in other posts a nice double check, but can't be the primary means of getting around at night. You need your head up, your night vision, and a strong ability to navigate using any visible landmarks and nav aides. If you can't, you shouldn't be on the water at night - you are risking not only your life but everyone else in the area's as well.

[jeffk]

I use GPS to fix my position at night and then constantly check against what I can see. For example, if the GPS says I should be approaching a flasher I locate that flasher and lock on to it visually until I can locate my next point of reference. If my visibility is compromised the first thing to go is SLOW DOWN! probably to headway speed until I can obtain another visual fix.

In essence, when traveling at significant speed I can always see my next visual marker AND I can always confirm my position on GPS. If I lose confidence in either I slow down until I am confident in both again. I also use a general compass heading as confirmation. I know that heading home is generally a N heading and check that every now and then as well.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by jeffk

I use GPS to fix my position at night and then constantly check against what I can see. For example, if the GPS says I should be approaching a flasher I locate that flasher and lock on to it visually until I can locate my next point of reference. If my visibility is compromised the first thing to go is SLOW DOWN! probably to headway speed until I can obtain another visual fix.

In essence, when traveling at significant speed I can always see my next visual marker AND I can always confirm my position on GPS. If I lose confidence in either I slow down until I am confident in both again. I also use a general compass heading as confirmation. I know that heading home is generally a N heading and check that every now and then as well.

I use a similar technique when night boating. You must use all the data you can when boating in limited visibility. That means your eyes, and your GPS or radar (if equipped). I also use my depth finder. If the GPS says it should be 50 feet deep and my depth finder says 20 feet, I slow down figure out what going on. Usually its the depth finder whacking out on something. You have to be a fool not to use all the tools you have, none of them are perfect, all of them can give you false data once in awhile, even your own eyes.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by jrc

I use a similar technique when night boating. You must use all the data you can when boating in limited visibility. That means your eyes, and your GPS or radar (if equipped). I also use my depth finder. If the GPS says it should be 50 feet deep and my depth finder says 20 feet, I slow down figure out what going on. Usually its the depth finder whacking out on something. You have to be a fool not to use all the tools you have, none of them are perfect, all of them can give you false data once in awhile, even your own eyes.

I think that's what's most important here. Some fixate on GPS or whatever being the only thing that's right or wrong. But even during the daylight hours, it's important to be aware of everything around you, including what's up front and behind, a complete 360 viewpoint. It's equally dangerous to either fixate your eyes on a screen while piloting a boat as it is to have your eyes peeled dead ahead, with no regard to the port or starboard viewpoints.

Obviously, some folks have a deep felt dislike of all things electronic, while others believe 100% in them. But I think most of us have a valuable cynicism that understands what you just stated. Our own eyes can betray us sometimes just as a GPS can. It pays dividends to understand that, and proceed with caution.

[ApS]

I guess we'll hear eventually of any GPS involvement in this collision: It's my understanding that a GPS can record the passage it has taken.

Originally Posted by lakershaker

"...GPS gives people a false sense of security, and when they are heads-down...even if there is radar on the boat, not all boats show on radar...I think "instument flying" at night on the lake is a huge problem, and with the proliferation of GPS, it's only going to get worse...You need your head up, your night vision..."

Even when equipped with radar, fathometers, and incredible measures to preserve night vision, the U. S. Navy ran three ships aground one foggy winter night in Canada. Occurring within 1 mile and 10 minutes of each other, that 15-kt collision with land was the subject of the book, Standing into Danger, by Carrie Brown. (Available at Amazon and elsewhere.) The two smallest ships were of the Navy's Destroyer class!

When Googling the book's availability, results included night-vision (Coast Guard .pdf files), and then to invention. The Dutch have apparently invented night-vision imagery that makes night appear as though "shot in broad daylight"—in full color!

Will technology introduce still another screen to the helm that will make "heads-up" night boating obsolete?

What a concept!

[VtSteve]

Technically, Jet Ski is the brand name for Kawasaki I believe.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

???? WHAT ???? You make this comment based on what evidence?

Can anyone back up this statement. Does GPS fail in the rain?

His statement doesn't seem that far fetched. GPS systems receive signals from satellites. When there is weather, it stands to reason that the already relatively weak signals could be affected, making it harder for the device to lock on and get an accurate reading.

There are many reasons why things like GPS and LORAN-C should be considered navigational AIDs and not replacements for familiarity with the water you're operating in.

[hazelnut]

OK I guess... I've never had it happen to my Standard Horizon in any cloud cover whatsoever, or rain. I also had a hard time finding evidence of failure of GPS in rain and clouds online. I'll take your word for it that it has happened to you though.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

OK I guess... I've never had it happen to my Standard Horizon in any cloud cover whatsoever, or rain. I also had a hard time finding evidence of failure of GPS in rain and clouds online. I'll take your word for it that it has happened to you though.

I have had issues with my Standard Horizons (I have had the CP155C, CP175C and currently have a CP180I) in the past on crappy nights. It does happen. Sometimes they have problems acquiring a link in inclement weather.

[Skip]

While all of this talk of GPS accuracy and anomalies is fascinating we must all remember one thing:

Regardless of GPS, RADAR, compass, depthfinders or the like a captain, at all times, must maintain a proper lookout. Maintaining a proper lookout is one of the most basic rules of seamanship that everyone must master and understand before taking the helm.

Failure of an installed navigational aid, or the inability to interperet such aid accurately is never an excuse for not maintaining a proper lookout, or operating your craft at an appropriate speed with regards to surrounding water & atmospheric conditions!

[luckypete]

greetings all,

here's another link to check out

http://www8.garmin.com/aboutGPS/waas.html

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Skip

While all of this talk of GPS accuracy and anomalies is fascinating we must all remember one thing:

Regardless of GPS, RADAR, compass, depthfinders or the like a captain, at all times, must maintain a proper lookout. Maintaining a proper lookout is one of the most basic rules of seamanship that everyone must master and understand before taking the helm.

Failure of an installed navigational aid, or the inability to interperet such aid accurately is never an excuse for not maintaining a proper lookout, or operating your craft at an appropriate speed with regards to surrounding water & atmospheric conditions!

Skip, thanks for injecting a dose of common sense into this part of this thread. Anyone who fixates on a GPS while driving a boat is an accident waiting to happen. The first and most important thing to do while navigating a boat is to watch where you are going. This includes at night. The big lake theory of collision avoidance doesn't work. You are sharing the lake with thousands of other people, your attention should never be fixated on a gps screen or any other screen for that matter. Your main focus should be in front of or around your boat using the gps and other tools as reference/backup.

[Lakepilot]

Had an airplane with GPS in it. Have thousands of hours IFR and hundreds flying in the rain and the GPS never failed (due to the rain). We have Direct TV and it has been known to fail during heavy rain and thunderstorms.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by Lakepilot

Had an airplane with GPS in it. Have thousands of hours IFR and hundreds flying in the rain and the GPS never failed (due to the rain). We have Direct TV and it has been known to fail during heavy rain and thunderstorms.

Different frequencys react differently to weather. My XM radio antenna can have 1' of snow on it and work fine. Direct TV hardly works at all in the snow. I would say GPS is pretty resiliant. Mine works great all the time even in some heavy snow when snowmobiling.

Maybe she was "flying on instruments"....

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Seadoo

wow congrats you know a SEA DOO is a jet ski, nothing gets by anyone on this forum.

also congrats on sailing you own boat to bermuda and back, and singledhanded wow you must feel great!

The funny thing about all the computers that run our lives is that they misread data and sometimes are worse then boating the "old" way, using land points around the water ways to help one get from point A to point B. Regaurdless on what GPS system one is using they still do fail more so in the rain and stormy weather, as it was that night.

Don't forget, Sea Doo also makes and sells boats.