It's official...

[chipj29]

http://www.unionleader.com/article.a...6-117786073e99

[Seaplane Pilot]

They just had to mention the accident one more time, didn't they. That's why it's called "THE USELESS LEADER".

[4Fun]

We have a lot of naïve people in NH. I hope you all feel warm and fuzzy next time out when you are almost run over by a boat that is going < 45mph but driven by a drunk or a clueless rental operator or more likely your typical bonehead who generally has no skill.

How about trying to actually fix a problem?? Or just admit your real agenda to rid the lake of any boat you don’t like. Safety concerns my A$$

For the record my boat is 19' and goes 35 MPH So my habits are not affected but I still feel like something was taken away for NO reason.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by 4FunFor the record my boat is 19' and goes 35 MPH So my habits are not affected but I still feel like something was taken away for NO reason

Something has been taken from you for NO reason, Marine Patrol crews on safety patrols because they will have to divert crews to set up useless radar posts, two crewmembers to a boat.

The research they did last summer (that didn't matter because it didn't support speed limits) used 6 vessels, that's 12 officers. So that's 6 fewer boats and 12 fewer officers available to enforce the 150 foot and other rules already on the books.

Anyone feel safer? I sure don't!

[BroadHopper]

with Airwaves. The lake will not be safer. The MP are tied up and the Caption Boneheads will run supreme. As I said to the proponents, 'Be careful what you wish for'.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

We have a lot of naïve people in NH. I hope you all feel warm and fuzzy next time out when you are almost run over by a boat that is going < 45mph but driven by a drunk or a clueless rental operator or more likely your typical bonehead who generally has no skill.

How about trying to actually fix a problem?? Or just admit your real agenda to rid the lake of any boat you don’t like. Safety concerns my A$$

For the record my boat is 19' and goes 35 MPH So my habits are not affected but I still feel like something was taken away for NO reason.

I agree. In matters like this, I have no sympathy with the outcome, none at all. If I'm proven wrong, I will admit it.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

with Airwaves. The lake will not be safer. The MP are tied up and the Caption Boneheads will run supreme. As I said to the proponents, 'Be careful what you wish for'.

I disagree. The proponents got exactly what they wished for...the GFBLs will no longer be "allowed" on the lake.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by chipj29

I disagree. The proponents got exactly what they wished for...the GFBLs will no longer be "allowed" on the lake.

That's what bothers me the most. Such a transparent agenda was masked by safety. A cowardly fight against a group of people.

I am sure there are a few out there that truly believe this will make the lake safer and they are the ones that really missed a chance to actually improve things.

[Squam Friend]

From the union leader article today:

"Speed-limit supporters had argued two years would be plenty of time for a test. They said people are afraid to canoe or swim, especially on weekends when boat traffic is most congested. "

Not to put too much weight in the words of the Union Leader, but this is a great example of the gap in logic between people's concerns about safety and the proposed solution. Congestion? Sounds like better enforcement of the 150' rule would be a good place to start here...

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Squam Friend

From the union leader article today:

"Speed-limit supporters had argued two years would be plenty of time for a test. They said people are afraid to canoe or swim, especially on weekends when boat traffic is most congested. "

Not to put too much weight in the words of the Union Leader, but this is a great example of the gap in logic between people's concerns about safety and the proposed solution. Congestion? Sounds like better enforcement of the 150' rule would be a good place to start here...

The "Gap" is quite huge. Enforcement makes sense, yet was never debated at length. Quite revealing for those that were so afraid that their 150' space was violated. Clever statements were made that if the boats had been going slower, their space would not be violated.

Don't count on it, I see it day in and day out, boaters in boats of all kinds cutting people off, going to close, failing to stay to the right, or even turning left into another boater's path. If every single GFBL boat on this lake vanished overnight, I'd still be facing 100% of the problems I have today.

Perhaps now that this law is in place, those at Winfabbs and and their supporters can devote their considerable time and resources to doing something more useful.

[fatlazyless]

Probably not my place to suggest this but, hey, why not a designated time slot for go-fast boaters?

How about Wednesday and Sunday, from noon-three on the broads? Set up a huge marked area just like a race track or a drag strip and it could become a new go-fast venue. Winnipesaukee needs the venue so people who can afford the big boats and the gasoline will still be here. It's a not-so-small item like jobs, money, economy etc...

Go-fast boating has been alive and growing on Lake Winnipesaukee since 1925. Everyone in New England knows that if you have a big, go-fast boat, then Winnipesaukee is the place to go, fast!

Maybe ring up State Rep Sherman 'Packy' Packwood to sponsor a bill that would create a go-fast zone to coincide with HB 847. Packy was all over the state newspapers saying that HB 847 was just a solution look'n for a problem.

As the saying goes, a small piece of pie is better than no pie.

[Ryan]

There are plenty of quiet coves and areas that are available for swimming.

Just like attempting to cross any interstate is dangerous (and illegal) so is swimming across the broads (minus the illegal part).

Also, attempting to swim through the Weirs Channel during 4th of July week, or ANY time for that matter would probably show a lack of better judgement. Most laws cannot prevent, ban or regulate stupidity.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by chipj29

I disagree. The proponents got exactly what they wished for...the GFBLs will no longer be "allowed" on the lake.

Oh, SOME of us will still be there; they're not going to get rid of my wife and I that easily!! It's funny, our boat makes just as much noise at 45mph as it does at 60mph!! The only difference will be it will take longer for me to be out of their earshot; they'll just have to listen to me a little bit longer than usual!

Seriously, our habits (referring to my wife and I), for the most part, will not change. Yeah, I'll have to forego the occasional exhilarating speed run in the Broads or any larger area (Alton Bay, Paugus Bay, Meredith Bay) when the traffic is light. But that's not the reason we bought a performance boat (yes, it's a PERFORMANCE BOAT, not a go-fast/be-loud!). We bought this boat because we liked the looks and the styling but mostly, we liked the ride. It's a longer, heavier boat and that equates to a smoother ride.

I'm SURE most of you lake regulars know how rough the water can be, especially in the Broads, in an 18-20 ft boat on a busy summer day. A small boat takes a real pounding as do its' occupants and we got tired of it. So we went bigger and heavier with a performance boat. How big? Not very. We went from a 21 ft bowrider (Baja) to a 25 ft (also a Baja); not exactly what most people think of when they see or hear comments about "GFBL" boats but it's still considered a performance boat. I'll bet alot of people think a minimum of 30 ft and larger when they think of performance boats but that's not always the case.

Finally, one last pet peeve. It's a PERFORMANCE BOAT, not a "cigarette" boat or a "go-fast/be-loud" boat. Cigarette is a brand name, just like Baja, Formula, Fountain, Nor-Tech, OuterLimits, etc. etc. etc. are all BRANDS. As for the "GFBL" name, any boat can go fast, some just go faster than others and with a 25mph night-time speed limit next year, anyone going 30mph will be going fast! As for being loud, they all make noise, some are just louder than others. Let us have switchable exhausts and I, for one, would be more than happy to use it at night when I'm in a situation where silence would be golden!

[4Fun]

[QUOTE=VtSteve;74047]

Don't count on it, I see it day in and day out, boaters in boats of all kinds cutting people off, going to close, failing to stay to the right, or even turning left into another boater's path. If every single GFBL boat on this lake vanished overnight, I'd still be facing 100% of the problems I have today.

QUOTE]

VtSteve, Do you really have any problems on the water? I have been boating on Winni for 20 years. and NEVER have had a close call. Have I needed to change course, avoid a bonehead, be alert, yes. But never a real close call. These things are just blown out of proportion to get a group of boaters off the lake.

People need to realize a crowded lake requires ALL parties to be alert and yes change course to avoid morons even if it isn't your fault. I know it can be frustrating but just drive defensively and enjoy the water. I just assume all the other boaters are on a collision course and adjust accordingly.

The stories of big fast boats going 50+MPH 20' away from other boats is something I have never seen and I think is quite exaggerated.

So here is an honest question Who is really scared out there??

[VtSteve]

[QUOTE=4Fun;74056]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Don't count on it, I see it day in and day out, boaters in boats of all kinds cutting people off, going to close, failing to stay to the right, or even turning left into another boater's path. If every single GFBL boat on this lake vanished overnight, I'd still be facing 100% of the problems I have today.

QUOTE]

VtSteve, Do you really have any problems on the water? I have been boating on Winni for 20 years. and NEVER have had a close call. Have I needed to change course, avoid a bonehead, be alert, yes. But never a real close call. These things are just blown out of proportion to get a group of boaters off the lake.

People need to realize a crowded lake requires ALL parties to be alert and yes change course to avoid morons even if it isn't your fault. I know it can be frustrating but just drive defensively and enjoy the water. I just assume all the other boaters are on a collision course and adjust accordingly.

The stories of big fast boats going 50+MPH 20' away from other boats is something I have never seen and I think is quite exaggerated.

So here is an honest question Who is really scared out there??

I did not say "close call", which is considerably different from boats being "too close". I've never had a close call myself. I have noticed a decidedly different boating environment nowadays than in the 90's, certainly the 80's. Winni was pretty congested on weekends in the 70's, certainly even more so in the 80's. There's far more congestion now than ever. Perhaps growing up on Winni was great training. I drive defensively as always, but even more aware to whatever's out there.


Safe means a lot of things to a lot of people. Those on Bear Island seemed to be particularly outspoken early on in this issue. As far back as I can remember, which is a lot more than 20 years, navigating around Bear's smaller channels was an activity requiring attention. Particularly the area between Bear and say, Shep's. Very busy way, way back. Now that boats do 90 mph through NWZ's, perhaps a bit trickier still Yes, be careful, and always assume that other boaters are dumber than snot, at least until you know them. I'm a bit overcautious myself.

As for the GFBL crowd? I think as a group, simply based on my personal experience, they are for the most part responsible boaters. As with any activity, there's always a few standout idiots. But in actuality, I think their communities do a far better job of self policing than other crafts. Many of those boat owners know one another, and truly love their boats and their lifestyles. If they follow the rules and generally are safe boaters, I don't judge them or their choices. For the most part, I wish the Captain Boneheads in smaller boats had have the knowledge and drove half as safe. I've never had one of those performance boats come close to me at all. But I've had many smaller boats do so, and even flip me the bird if I motioned to them.

I feel safer in open water than in bays, which would run counter to the speed limits crowd. In general, much more enforcement is needed all around.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

I have been boating on Winni for 20 years. and NEVER have had a close call. Have I needed to change course, avoid a bonehead, be alert, yes. But never a real close call. These things are just blown out of proportion to get a group of boaters off the lake.

I have had close calls on Winni, that I've posted in this forum. NONE of my close calls has been "blown out of proportion" - I have been totally honest in my posts. Yet some people here can't seem to believe that these kind of close calls can happen, just because they haven't personally experienced them.

People need to realize a crowded lake requires ALL parties to be alert and yes change course to avoid morons even if it isn't your fault. I know it can be frustrating but just drive defensively and enjoy the water. I just assume all the other boaters are on a collision course and adjust accordingly.

That's great addvice if you're in a boat that can travel as fast as the "moron's" boat - but it really doesn't help much when you're paddling a kayak, and you're top speed is 5 or 6 mph.

The stories of big fast boats going 50+MPH 20' away from other boats is something I have never seen and I think is quite exaggerated.

I've had "big fast" boats that were traveling at least 50 mph come within 60 or 70 feet of me, before they even noticed me. And THAT'S not an exageration.

So here is an honest question Who is really scared out there??

Here's my honest answer: I am, at times.

I'm very concerned for my safety when a boat traveling at a high speed is heading directly at me and they apparently aren't paying enough attention to even see me until they get very close. And many other paddlers share my fear and concern. Most of my paddling friends will not even paddle on Winni - because of the high speeds of powerboats (their reason, not mine).

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

I've had "big fast" boats that were traveling at least 50 mph come within 60 or 70 feet of me, before they even noticed me. And THAT'S not an exageration.

Here's my honest answer: I am, at times.

I'm very concerned for my safety when a boat traveling at a high speed is heading directly at me and they apparently aren't paying enough attention to even see me until they get very close. And many other paddlers share my fear and concern. Most of my paddling friends will not even paddle on Winni - because of the high speeds of powerboats (their reason, not mine).

I don't doubt that there are some hairy times out there in a kayak. "Because of the high speed". Scantly a paragraph without that term. I'd have to admit, I would definitely pay more attention to large fast boats if in a kayak than I would a smaller boat doing 25. But regardless of speed issues, in canoes and whatever the paddle boat, I Never ventured out where I would be in direct contact with powerboats in their element, NEVER. Your friends may be indirectly smart by not paddling there, I wouldn't have done it thirty years ago, let alone now. And no, speed isn't my first thought.

Yes, I now know all about your Sea Kayak and it's tremendous capabilities in rough water etc.. We have some over here as well as regular old fashioned kayaks. Even in the bay here, which is quite a large bay, the visibility of boats like yours can be restricting due to sun, waves, whatever. Most people tend to stay closer to shore in such vessels. I do note that there are some younger paddlers that go right up the middle, some I've even seen out on the big lake itself. If you're not somewhat skittery in a kayak in open water on a congested day, you're most certainly not paying attention. Heck, my neck is practically on ball bearings on weekends as it is, why the heck would I want to be a foot above water and paddling through the maze?

[Woodsy]

Evenstar...

Now that any boats traveling straight at you are LIMITED to 45MPH, starting next year, can we expect to see you & all of your paddling friends out on Winni? After all... it's SAFER now that there will be a speed limit!



Woodsy

[joanna616]

As they said in Jaws "I think You're gonna need a bigger Boat".

Seriously - canoes and kayaks do not belong in the middle of Broads. On a windy day with good chop - even at 30mph they may not be seen - unless of course they are wearing orange and carring a sign that says "Speed Bump"?

How about we put up a slow boater crossing sign - like they do with Moose and Deer on the highway. That would be great!

Oh how I love Devil's Advocate!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

I've had "big fast" boats that were traveling at least 50 mph come within 60 or 70 feet of me, before they even noticed me. And THAT'S not an exageration.

The problem, again Evenstar, is that at 60-70 feet the safe passage law has been broken. At 50mph according to even the new law to be passed is not overly fast, certainly not a "big fast boat". My pontoon will do 48mph, does that make it a "big fast boat"?

At 50mph MP would not even bother to turn the lights on unless there was something else triggering the response, such as being 60-70 feet away. The law that would protect you in this case is the safe passage law, not the proposed speed limit.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Evenstar...

Now that any boats traveling straight at you are LIMITED to 45MPH, starting next year, can we expect to see you & all of your paddling friends out on Winni? After all... it's SAFER now that there will be a speed limit!



Woodsy

Woodsy, now that the camel has his nose in the tent, the speed limit crowd will never be satisfied. Once they realize that nothing has changed (from their perspective), they'll go to the next step. And they'll keep going until we'll all be in Blow Boats, Kayaks or Canoes. You know, I have one mother and don't need any more. She took care of me and now I can take care of myself. This State is really getting pathetic. The Old Man is shedding tears for sure!

[4Fun]

Evenstar, you have some good counterpoints to my post but what I think the others are trying to bring out is the person in the kayak should be REQUIRED to bear half the risk of being out there. Your arguments and many others are that since kayakers are slow and hard to see, the other users of the lake should accommodate. I don’t really see much give on that side.

The responsibility of the kayaker to be visible is as important as the boater's is to be on lookout. The problem is the risk of injury is much greater to the kayaker than the power boater in a mishap. This is not the type of thing a law can really protect against. The only way to live together is for BOTH sides to understand the others view.

Fortunately Winni has plenty of rocks and some very nice protected areas. I would think if I was an avid kayaker why not just stay on the "wrong" side of the marker where the boats don’t go? If you have to cross an area that has lots of traffic just be conscious and make yourself noticeable. Maybe a red kayak instead of a blue one for instance. Red jacket instead of the blue one that matches the kayak. Most if not all people want to be courteous to others and will do what they can to go around you with room to spare. Enhancing visibility can go a long way.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

I don't doubt that there are some hairy times out there in a kayak. "Because of the high speed". Scantly a paragraph without that term. I'd have to admit, I would definitely pay more attention to large fast boats if in a kayak than I would a smaller boat doing 25. But regardless of speed issues, in canoes and whatever the paddle boat, I Never ventured out where I would be in direct contact with powerboats in their element, NEVER. Your friends may be indirectly smart by not paddling there, I wouldn't have done it thirty years ago, let alone now. And no, speed isn't my first thought.

Unless you really hug the shoreline or just remain in really small coves, it is impossible to paddle on any lakes without being where you are not in direct contact with powerboats. I can safely kayak on large bays in the ocean (where I have yet to have a close encounter with a high speed powerboat), yet you’re telling me that it is not smart for me to paddle my sea kayak on a NH lake, unless I stay off the main part of the lake. And that’s just something that I should accept?

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Evenstar...
Now that any boats traveling straight at you are LIMITED to 45MPH, starting next year, can we expect to see you & all of your paddling friends out on Winni? After all... it's SAFER now that there will be a speed limit!
Woodsy

I can’t speak for my paddling friends, but I’ll be on Winni this year, so I’m certainly planning on paddling there once the speed limit goes into effect. I know you don’t believe this, but a speed limit will indeed make the lake safer. It is a fact that, with all else being equal, slower is safer.

Originally Posted by joanna616

As they said in Jaws "I think You're gonna need a bigger Boat".
Seriously - canoes and kayaks do not belong in the middle of Broads. On a windy day with good chop - even at 30mph they may not be seen - unless of course they are wearing orange and carring a sign that says "Speed Bump"?

My sea kayak is 16 feet long – and it’s made especially for large bodies of water. There are over 253 islands in Winni – and there’s only about 2 square miles of the entire lake where it is possible to be more than a mile from a shore. The Broads is not the vast open area of water, miles from any shore - that people on this forum often portray it to be.
My kayak and I are very visible. In good weather I can spot other kayaks up to a mile away – even in the chop (what goes down between the waves also spends half the time on the top of the waves). So if you can’t see a kayak in good weather at 30 mph, you have a real vision problem, and shouldn’t even be operating a powerboat.

Originally Posted by codeman671

The problem, again Evenstar, is that at 60-70 feet the safe passage law has been broken. At 50mph according to even the new law to be passed is not overly fast, certainly not a "big fast boat". My pontoon will do 48mph, does that make it a "big fast boat"? At 50mph MP would not even bother to turn the lights on unless there was something else triggering the response, such as being 60-70 feet away. The law that would protect you in this case is the safe passage law, not the proposed speed limit.

I wrote “at least 50 mph,” in my opinion they were probably going faster than that – and fast enough for the MP to stop them for speeding before they even violated my 150 foot zone. The 150 foot rule would be broken a lot less if people slow down. If you’re going slower, you have more time to see and to avoid other boats – even when they are kayaks. Some of the boats that I had close calls with were actually big fast boats – I call a 28-footer a big boat, when it’s on a lake.

Originally Posted by 4Fun

Evenstar, you have some good counterpoints to my post but what I think the others are trying to bring out is the person in the kayak should be REQUIRED to bear half the risk of being out there. Your arguments and many others are that since kayakers are slow and hard to see, the other users of the lake should accommodate. I don’t really see much give on that side.

I have a bright red 16 foot kayak with a white lower hull – my best friend’s kayak is bright yellow – we were red and orange PFDs and my paddle blades are bright orange (which are actually the most visible part – because they are moving up and down and are the highest), and my spray jacket is bright orange. We have done everything possible to make ourselves visible – so how much “give” do you want from us?

Fortunately Winni has plenty of rocks and some very nice protected areas. I would think if I was an avid kayaker why not just stay on the "wrong" side of the marker where the boats don’t go? If you have to cross an area that has lots of traffic just be conscious and make yourself noticeable.

We are very noticeable – yet some boaters still can’t seem to see us. There are 253 islands on Winni. Most of the time when I kayak on Winni is spent paddling along or between islands. Most of my close encounters have not happened out in the Broards, but on the back side of islands, where boaters are zipping between the island and the main shore – never considering that there might be small boats between the two. I’ve also had close calls less than 200 feet from the main shore. This is very simple – some people are going faster than they should be – and many of them are not smart enough or considerate enough to slow down, without enacting a speed limit.
Squam has a 40mph speed limit. I have never had a powerboat unintentionally (because they didn’t notice me) violate my 150 foot zone on Squam. And I have paddled there a lot – even on very busy weekends. It’s very clear to me that when boats have to slow down, I’m much safer out there.

Sorry for the long post, but I make one short little post and get a bunch of instant replies. It's not easy being so popular.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by chipj29

I disagree. The proponents got exactly what they wished for...the GFBLs will no longer be "allowed" on the lake.

I just registered my GFBL boat at Glendale. They did not say that GFBL are not allowed on the lake. In fact they said my boat was cool!

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Seaplane Pilot
Woodsy, now that the camel has his nose in the tent, the speed limit crowd will never be satisfied. Once they realize that nothing has changed (from their perspective), they'll go to the next step. And they'll keep going until we'll all be in Blow Boats, Kayaks or Canoes.

I am hoping that when nothing changes on Winnipesaukee because of this foolish law, Hi Performance boats don't go away and are STILL NOT CAUSING high speed accidents and the accident rate remains stable or even drops some because of the mandatory boater education law that is now fully implemented and then WinnFABS crowd kicks it up a notch, that Concord will treat them as they should be treated, "The little boy who Cried Wolf".

Concord should ignore WinnFABS and allow this foolish law to expire then address the real problems and fund the Marine Patrol so that they can enforce existing laws!

That's my hope.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

I have a bright red 16 foot kayak with a white lower hull – my best friend’s kayak is bright yellow – we were red and orange PFDs and my paddle blades are bright orange (which are actually the most visible part – because they are moving up and down and are the highest), and my spray jacket is bright orange. We have done everything possible to make ourselves visible – so how much “give” do you want from us?

An ant spray painted orange and wearing a strobe light would still be unwise to attempt to cross the expressway.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

An ant spray painted orange and wearing a strobe light would still be unwise to attempt to cross the expressway.

You know, it's comments like yours that really irk me. It's insulting and uncalled for. I really try to get along with everyone, but that kind of attitude makes it pretty much impossible. And then you guys wonder why paddlers and powerboat owners don't get along better. Give me a break.

First of all, my kayak is just as much a boat as the biggest and most expensive powerboat. Being human powered does not make it any less of a boat. After all, kayaks have been around a lot longer than power boats.

Secondly, the lake is not an expressway - it's a recreational body of water. It is for everyone to use, including kayaks. And we have the right to use just as much of the lake as the powerboats.

I'm really sick of the contention here that a sea kayak has no place being out on the main lake - especially when 99% of those comments come from people who have never even paddled in a sea kayak.

[pats fan]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

You know, it's comments like yours that really irk me. It's insulting and uncalled for. I really try to get along with everyone, but that kind of attitude makes it pretty much impossible. And then you guys wonder why paddlers and powerboat owners don't get along better. Give me a break.

First of all, my kayak is just as much a boat as the biggest and most expensive powerboat. Being human powered does not make it any less of a boat. After all, kayaks have been around a lot longer than power boats.

Secondly, the lake is not an expressway - it's a recreational body of water. It is for everyone to use, including kayaks. And we have the right to use just as much of the lake as the powerboats.

I'm really sick of the contention here that a sea kayak has no place being out on the main lake - especially when 99% of those comments come from people who have never even paddled in a sea kayak.

You really should not be so sensitive! The orange ant with the strobe light was very funny! I agree that the lake is for everyone to use and enjoy, including kayaks. I also have a kayak and want to feel safe on the lake. However, thinking rationally about this we kayakers have to look at both sides of this with open eyes. You said you have as much right to use the lake as powerboats. I agree. But! HOW we all use the lake is the question. The powerboats are not allowed within 150 feet of the shore. That is for the safety of swimmers, boaters and kayakers! We have a few hundred miles of shore to kayak safely. Why not leave the open waters to the powerboats? You and I can have just as much fun, exercise and enjoyment of the lake along the shore as we can in the broads. More so actually! The fun part is looking at the homes and landscape. You are saying you should be able to kayak anywhere you want and feel safe. Then what is good for the goose is good for the gander. The powerboats should be able to boat anywhere they want. Does that make sense to you? There are rules put in place so that everyone can enjoy their respective sport. Their sport makes sense to be enjoyed away from the shore and ours makes sense to be enjoyed nearer the shore. As a side, you mentined that your boat is as much of a boat as the biggest and most expensive powerboat. I think this sounds like a bit of envy and jelousy. So his is bigger than yours! So what! Does yours still do what you want it to do? Then give it a name and don't worry if his is bigger, better and more money!

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Evenstar
I'm really sick of the contention here that a sea kayak has no place being out on the main lake - especially when 99% of those comments come from people who have never even paddled in a sea kayak.

Evenstar, if you want to paddle from Alton to Green's Basin and back that's fine, but if you are not willing to make your kayak visible to all boaters that are on the lake, and then blame us because we "come close at high speeds" then that's something else entirely!

Every boater, including you and your kayak, has a legal responsiblity to boat safely, that also means that you can not endanger other vessels because they can't see you.

Hell, my family owned a Freedom 21 for years and there is no way in the world I would have seen you in a kayak if you cut in front of us! The maximum hull speed of a Freedom 21 is 4 knots! Betcha that still would have hurt, or worse.

You want speed limits so you don't get "run down" by high speed boats, yet you refuse to even put a flag on your vessel to make it more visible. You put the responsibility on others when, under the law, each vessel operator is responsible.

I have never paddled a kayak, I have been in my share of canoes and very small rowboats on Lake Winnipesaukee. Common Sense dictates that you don't travel in a vessel like that into traffic! DUH!

I have asked you several times to please tell us about your claims that every time, or nearly every time, or sometimes, when you go out on Lake Winnipesaukee that you encounter high speed boats violating your 150 foot zone. I ask again, you keep repeating the claim but you don't ever say where or when. Please enlighten us.

Speed limits will not have any impact on the congestion on the lake or boneheads that take aim at someone in a bikini in a brightly colored kayak.

So do you really think that you are safer now that the HB847 has passed and will apparently become law although it will divert the Marine Patrol away from duties that they already are apparently lacking?

You've already won the battle (not the war) so stop fighting and join the rest of us on the lake. It's a nice place and we'll do battle again, later.

AW

[Cal]

Another freedom gone...hope yours isn't next. On second thought , yes I do hope yours is next. What goes around , comes around.
Oh yeah , kayaks are fun , for 5 minutes , after that they're B O R I N G and too much like work.
Good luck people. I can honestly say I'm glad I don't live there

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by pats fan

You really should not be so sensitive! The orange ant with the strobe light was very funny!

I’m sensitive because many of these types of comments are serious. I really don’t see anything funny about making fun of people.

I agree that the lake is for everyone to use and enjoy, including kayaks. I also have a kayak and want to feel safe on the lake. However, thinking rationally about this we kayakers have to look at both sides of this with open eyes. You said you have as much right to use the lake as powerboats. I agree. But! HOW we all use the lake is the question. The powerboats are not allowed within 150 feet of the shore.

That is not true, powerboats are allowed to use the entire lake – the only restriction is that they can’t travel faster than 6mph (no wake speed) within 150 feet of shore. If they’re 151 feet from shore, they can travel as fast as they want (unless there’s a speed limit). Of course they are supposed to never be closer than 150 feet from any other boat at a speed above 6mph. So, technically it is just as safe being out in the middle of the lake as it is hugging the shore. The problem is that some boaters travel at speeds that are beyond their ability to remain out of this 150 foot zone – this is where a speed limit comes in.

That is for the safety of swimmers, boaters and kayakers! We have a few hundred miles of shore to kayak safely. Why not leave the open waters to the powerboats? You and I can have just as much fun, exercise and enjoyment of the lake along the shore as we can in the broads. More so actually! The fun part is looking at the homes and landscape.

That’s your opinion. I enjoy paddling out on the main lake. I also enjoy paddling on the ocean. I am also a collegiate sailor, and I race small sailboats (that are actually shorter than my kayak) out in the middle of bays that are bigger than all of winni. If I wanted to just hug the shore, I would never have bought an expensive sea kayak.

This “kayaks do not belong on the main lake attitude” is really getting old. My kayak is made exactly for the conditions found out on the main lake. I often paddle 20 miles in an afternoon, why shouldn’t I be able to safely cut across the main lake if I want to, rather than retrace my route along the shore? I can safely kayak on Squam Lake – even out in the middle of the lake – from end to end.

As a side, you mentined that your boat is as much of a boat as the biggest and most expensive powerboat. I think this sounds like a bit of envy and jelousy. So his is bigger than yours! So what! Does yours still do what you want it to do? Then give it a name and don't worry if his is bigger, better and more money!

I have no desire to own a powerboat – I much prefer kayaks and sailboats. But I don’t refer to their preference in boats as a “toy” or as a “speedbump.”

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

The 150 foot rule would be broken a lot less if people slow down. If you’re going slower, you have more time to see and to avoid other boats – even when they are kayaks.

The above statement clearly indicates to me that you haven't spent much time on the lake. I can honestly say that easily 75%+ of all boats that I pass in reasonably narrow areas ignore the 150' rule!!! I watch it all day long in front of my house. People simply don't understand the simple concept or just don't care. It has NOTHING to do with their speed, they simply don't want to be bothered to come off plane and obey. Hell, near the tip of Mark and near Meredith Neck I would put that to 95%...This is not just fast boats, this is your cruisers, your bowriders, fishing boats, pontoons, performance boats, basically all types.

My passengers ask me often "why are you stopping?or why are you slowing down?" . My answer is simple, just because they are breaking the law doesn't mean that I should too.

The best one last weekend was the moron at 11pm in a loud wooden boat that came around the corner in front our place at full steam, only to pass within 30' of 2 MP boats that were parked after a lengthy stop from a few minutes before. He saw them at the last second and backed off, so close they could have spit on him. They got him too...It was quite the show.

[Chris Craft]

Evenstar: The reason that you feel safer in the ocean then you do in Lake Winni. is because there are less boats per sq acre in the ocean then there are in the lake. Same with Squam.

I also race blow boats at a very high level, my brother was #3 in the nation for a while. We have spent more time on boats then most. I could toss my boat in the water on the Maine coast and of course feel safer then I do if I put it in the water in MA behind say "coctail cove" in Essex. In Maine I may not see a single boat all day, in MA I will see and be surrounded by hundreds. In MA there is a speed limit, in Maine there is not. I feel safer in Maine.....

[COWISLAND NH]

Every boater, including you and your kayak, has a legal responsiblity to boat safely, that also means that you can not endanger other vessels because they can't see you.


This about sum it up folks.......why do the rest of us have to stop doing what we love BC other do not want to take responsibility for themselves. I am at the lake every weekend....rarely have a problem, but would never infringe on other rights even if I did. Almost all the MP I have talk to think this law is joke.






AW[/QUOTE]

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

Evenstar: The reason that you feel safer in the ocean then you do in Lake Winni. is because there are less boats per sq acre in the ocean then there are in the lake. Same with Squam.

I also race blow boats at a very high level, my brother was #3 in the nation for a while. We have spent more time on boats then most. I could toss my boat in the water on the Maine coast and of course feel safer then I do if I put it in the water in MA behind say "coctail cove" in Essex. In Maine I may not see a single boat all day, in MA I will see and be surrounded by hundreds. In MA there is a speed limit, in Maine there is not. I feel safer in Maine.....

A couple of different issues here.

In my bay, there is so much sailboat activity, both small and large, It could take me 45 minutes or more just to clear the bay on a busy Saturday. Like others, including Police and CG, I slow down accordingly, but not headway speed. I spoke with a CG officer about this one day. He had watched me go out, accelerate to plane speed, then just below plane as I weaved in between 3 35' plus blowboats. I was perhaps 75' from the port of one, less than that from the starboard of another which was parallel, but ahead a hundred yards or so. I had nowhere else to go but to parallel them until clearing. Some of these boats go at a pretty good clip in decent winds. I could see a larger contingent ahead, so I backed off and let them go by.

I pulled around to the CG boat and started a conversation, asking him if I was OK with the way I was handling the congestion. He said he was fine with it, even suggesting I might go a little faster to clear them sooner, tacking problems and all. He said he's had to stop some people for just bombing by at full throttle, or even people tubing between boats.

One thing I never see happen, is GFBL boats navigating recklessly around like the average Bonehead out there. Not to say they're perfect, but as a group, generally very good skippers and safe. I believe after midnight is where the real bozos show their stuff.

[VtSteve]

Forgot number two

Imagine large lakes like Winni or Champlain, so congested by kayakers and canoes in the main channels, that everyone is reduced to headway speed. I know one person here that would simply love that

But they'd be causing such a problem for the main lake, that laws would have to be implemented to restrict their travel lanes, or even have special lanes created just for them. Sounds like a bad idea? Perhaps.

The point being, moderation is nice, and everyone has to make allowances and compromises on the water. That even includes kayaks. I get miffed sometimes when the large sailboats take up the whole bay, but this is first and foremost a great sailing lake, and they belong here too. Besides, I once had a sailboat, and I love to gawk at them

Courtesy everyone, there's a time and a place for everything.

[2Blackdogs]

4fun writes,

That's what bothers me the most. Such a transparent agenda was masked by safety. A cowardly fight against a group of people.

As long as A.I.S. is used to excuse bad boaters, we can never know the benefits to boating safety this new law could provide.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Evenstar, if you want to paddle from Alton to Green's Basin and back that's fine, but if you are not willing to make your kayak visible to all boaters that are on the lake, and then blame us because we "come close at high speeds" then that's something else entirely! Every boater, including you and your kayak, has a legal responsiblity to boat safely, that also means that you can not endanger other vessels because they can't see you. . . . You want speed limits so you don't get "run down" by high speed boats, yet you refuse to even put a flag on your vessel to make it more visible. You put the responsibility on others when, under the law, each vessel operator is responsible.

The problem is not my lack of visibility, because I am very visible – the problem is that some powerboat owners are traveling at speeds that are greater than their ability to see smaller boats in time to stay out of their 150 foot zone. And this happens regularly enough to create a real danger to people like me, who use smaller boats on the lake. If I can see other kayaks literally a mile away, why do some power boat owners violate my 150 foot zone before they notice me?

Here are the facts:
1.) Visibility has NEVER been a problem for me on Squam Lake – because there is a 40 mph speed limit which apparently keeps powerboat operators from traveling faster than their ability to see. So I’m almost certain that a 45mph speed limit on Winni with have a similar effect (although, personally I think that 40 mph is a better limit).

2.) Those little flags are nothing but gimmicks. They are not large enough to increase visibility significantly. The surface area of one of my bright orange paddle blades is greater then any of those flags – and my moving paddle blade extends higher above the water! Yet when I stated that the most visible part of a kayak is the moving paddles, people here jumped all over me. The problem is most of you haven’t even been in a sea kayak, yet you and others have all sorts of “good” advice for me.

3.) If these flags are so good, where are the endorsements from major kayak and paddling organizations? Go to any sea kayak or paddling website (not the stores that sell these gimmicks) and do a search on “flag” and all you’ll find is info on attaching a flag on your long sea kayak when you transport it on the roof of your car. Paddling.net is the largest paddling site – go there and check for yourself if you don’t believe me. No serious paddler uses these little flags because they are useless – and they do hinder rescue procedures – like rolling and self rescues – especially on windy days.

4.) A sea kayak is long and narrow. My kayak is only 22 inches wide! I control it with thigh braces . . . and by leaning (which is called “putting it on edge”). Paddling a sea kayak is a constant balancing act. A flag that would be large enough and tall enough to actually make a difference in my visibility would make my kayak very unstable – and it would make my kayak practically impossible to steer in even a moderate breeze, since it would make my kayak like a weather-vane. That is the truth. In order to increase my visibility to any meaningful degree, a flag would have to have a significantly larger surface area than my paddle blade and it would have to extend above the water higher than my paddle – such a flag would make my kayak totally unstable in any wind.

I have never paddled a kayak, I have been in my share of canoes and very small rowboats on Lake Winnipesaukee. Common Sense dictates that you don't travel in a vessel like that into traffic! DUH!

A canoe and rowboat are nothing like a sea kayak – so please stop trying to advise me on something that you have absolutely no experience with.

Hell, my family owned a Freedom 21 for years and there is no way in the world I would have seen you in a kayak if you cut in front of us! The maximum hull speed of a Freedom 21 is 4 knots! Betcha that still would have hurt, or worse.

FYI: I do not cut in front of, cut off, or get in the way of other vessels. I give them plenty of clearance and I wait for a clear opening before crossing any channel. I race sailboats, so I’m very aware of the blind spots, but I also know the rules of sailing. It is your responsibility to avoid other vessels – even when they are kayaks. If you can’t keep track of where nearby vessels are at all times, then you need to have someone else on board who can keep watch.

I would have no problem staying out of the way of a boat with a maximum speed of 4 knots, since my maximum paddling speed is over 5 knots. The sailboats I race go a LOT faster than 4 knots.

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

Evenstar: The reason that you feel safer in the ocean then you do in Lake Winni. is because there are less boats per sq acre in the ocean then there are in the lake. Same with Squam.

I don't believe this is true for Squam - I would contend that there are on the average, more boats per acre on Squam than on Winni. The difference is that Squam has a 40 mph speed limit

Originally Posted by COWISLAND NH

Every boater, including you and your kayak, has a legal responsiblity to boat safely, that also means that you can not endanger other vessels because they can't see you.

See my above reply to airwaves about visibility.

Stop trying to blame the dangerous conditions on us paddlers, when it doesn’t take a whole lot of common sense to see that high-speed powerboats are the ones putting us in danger.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

You know, it's comments like yours that really irk me. It's insulting and uncalled for. I really try to get along with everyone, but that kind of attitude makes it pretty much impossible.

Evenstar, you really need to notch down the sensitivity level by about half.

Several people have tried explaining to you why your argument or point of view may not be entirely logical. Reasoning didn't seem to be working, so I thought I'd try an analogy. It seems though that any post, comment, thought, or wish that goes against your tunnel-view idea of what is right and wrong is going to be met by hostility and lashing out from you.

You can wear all the bright colors that you like, but a big part of the problem with your kayak is that is simply does not have the surface area or overall volume above the waterline to be easily spotted. Adding more colorful bits to your kayaking costume doesn't solve that simple matter of physics.

If you want to go out and play amongst the powerboats in the big parts of the lake, then just attempt to increase the physical size and visibility of your craft. This might (gasp!) require that you come down off your high horse and make some concessions and/or adjustments to how you enjoy your sport.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Evenstar, you really need to notch down the sensitivity level by about half.

I will, just as soon as people like you stop insulting me.

Several people have tried explaining to you why your argument or point of view may not be entirely logical. Reasoning didn't seem to be working, so I thought I'd try an analogy. It seems though that any post, comment, thought, or wish that goes against your tunnel-view idea of what is right and wrong is going to be met by hostility and lashing out from you.

There's nothing illogical about my point of view. The problem is that you're the one with "tunnel vision," as you and others here are just looking at my points from someone who doesn't believe that kayaks should be out on the main lake - because that's only a place for the "big" power boats.

You can wear all the bright colors that you like, but a big part of the problem with your kayak is that is simply does not have the surface area or overall volume above the waterline to be easily spotted. Adding more colorful bits to your kayaking costume doesn't solve that simple matter of physics.

This has nothing to do with physics - it's all about visibility. And my kayak might be small, but my kayak and I are extremley visible. You and others here constantly neglect my statement that under good weather conditions, I can usually spot other kayaks (even less brightly colored ones) up to a mile away.

If you want to go out and play amongst the powerboats in the big parts of the lake, then just attempt to increase the physical size and visibility of your craft. This might (gasp!) require that you come down off your high horse and make some concessions and/or adjustments to how you enjoy your sport.

And what consessions might that include?

A 16 foot sea-kayak is a pretty long kayak. And you buy a sea kayak based on your size and weight - so anything longer than a 17 footer would be too large for me.

Please stop igoring what I post - I've posted here repeatedly that I've made every attempt to be visible. The combination of my best friend's kayak and mine are the most visible colors in all water conditions(bright red and yellow). If you can't see us, you're either going too fast and just not paying attention, or you have vision problems and shouldn't even be operating a powerboat.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

The problem is not my lack of visibility, because I am very visible – the problem is that some powerboat owners are traveling at speeds that are greater than their ability to see smaller boats in time

Yes, clearly the problem is everybody else. If your argument were trues, we would be hearing stories every single weekend of various boat collisions on the lake. You already know of course that boating accidents on the lake are minimal for the amount of boats/activity. So it can't really be that the whole rest of the world is culprit, and you are the sole person who has no reason to adjust or change their behaviors.

And this happens regularly enough to create a real danger to people like me, who use smaller boats on the lake.

And yet from this perceived danger there is not a proportionate number of accidents occurring. You are extremely lucky! I would suggest that you spend your time buying lottery tickets instead of arguing your case here! Your incredible luck is going to waste.

Here are the facts:
1.) Visibility has NEVER been a problem for me on Squam Lake

Excellent! It seems you have found an ideal place to enjoy your sport.

The surface area of one of my bright orange paddle blades is greater then any of those flags – and my moving paddle blade extends higher above the water! Yet when I stated that the most visible part of a kayak is the moving paddles, people here jumped all over me. The problem is most of you haven’t even been in a sea kayak, yet you and others have all sorts of “good” advice for me.

Your paddle blades extend above the water for only brief periods of time, the flag is always waving. It seems from your posts though that you are unwilling to even try using the flag and measuring it's effectiveness on increasing your visibility? This is surely a great way earn the respect and admiration of other boaters. Let's see how deeply you can plant your feet and refuse to move or adapt.

3.) If these flags are so good, where are the endorsements from major kayak and paddling organizations?

Perhaps you can be the first official endorser? You certainly seem to enjoy being a strong and vocal supporter of the things you believe in. Imagine all that you could do for your sport!

4.) A sea kayak is long and narrow. My kayak is only 22 inches wide! I control it with thigh braces . . . and by leaning (which is called “putting it on edge”). Paddling a sea kayak is a constant balancing act. A flag that would be large enough and tall enough to actually make a difference in my visibility would make my kayak very unstable – and it would make my kayak practically impossible to steer in even a moderate breeze,

Hmmm, it is starting to seem like there may be some waterways where it is just not practical for you to operate your craft. I would like to come boat with you an Squam, but my boat is considered a "houseboat" there, so I am unable to operate on Squam. I had considered rallying against them, but then I realized there are so many other places that I can use my boat, it wasn't worth the effort.

[Airwaves]

Posted by Evenstar
The problem is not my lack of visibility, because I am very visible – the problem is that some powerboat owners are traveling at speeds that are greater than their ability to see smaller boats in time to stay out of their 150 foot zone.

You're visible but can't be seen...

Posted by Evenstar
2.) Those little flags are nothing but gimmicks. They are not large enough to increase visibility significantly.

So from my perspective as a boater traveling as speeds greater than my ability to see...spotting a bright orange flag in the middle of the lake would register as in my mind...as a golf green??

Posted by Evanstar
A canoe and rowboat are nothing like a sea kayak – so please stop trying to advise me on something that you have absolutely no experience with.

Low to the water, human powered vessels, all have the same issue when in traffic areas, first and foremost is their inability to move faster than the human powering the vessel can propel them, then there is the visibility issue. I am not going to get into a leaky rowboat and race you and your kayak, but they do share some of the same characteristics. If you are blind to that fact there's nothing I can do or say to help you.

Posted by Evenstar
FYI: I do not cut in front of, cut off, or get in the way of other vessels. I give them plenty of clearance and I wait for a clear opening before crossing any channel. I race sailboats, so I’m very aware of the blind spots, but I also know the rules of sailing. It is your responsibility to avoid other vessels – even when they are kayaks. If you can’t keep track of where nearby vessels are at all times, then you need to have someone else on board who can keep watch.

I am getting the very distinct impression that you believe the water is yours and that you are good enough to share with the rest of us! If you actually know the boating regulations you know that

"It is your responsibility to avoid other vessels – even when they are kayaks

...and even when you are in a kayak!

Posted by Evenstar
Stop trying to blame the dangerous conditions on us paddlers, when it doesn’t take a whole lot of common sense to see that high-speed powerboats are the ones putting us in danger

.
And you explain the 5th leading cause of accidents on NH waterways in 2006 how?