Boating Accident/Death off Diamond Island

[pmj]

No that it matters, but boats do not need to show bow/registration numbers if they have USCG documentation. That said, most lake boats probably do not apply for documentation but you never know


it's a totally moot point.

[wildwoodfam]

Gotta love digital cameras and the ability to enlarge the photo, I can now see the dealer plate on the boat!

And my apologies - I said Channel and of course new it was Lakeport. That's what happens when you are on the other side of the lake, everything beyond the Weirs blurs together!

Still a very sad story unfolding here...

[UncleRay]

Originally Posted by NHDOLFAN

Wow. This article shows that someone was drinking. Now, whether the person(s) were impaired is a different story. At what speed would a boat need to be traveling to be on plane? I'm sure that Formula could answer this question. Only time will tell but it does not look good.

According to the tests on this hull, it looks to plane off at about 19/20 mph.

http://www.boattest.com/oem/general-...381#TestResult



If you care to run the math, this will get you close:

Minimum Planing Speed in Knots:

2.3 x ((32.2 x (all up displacement in pounds)^0.333)^0.5)/1.6889

For example, an 18' boat at 2,323.2 pounds (including crew) may plane at 13.902 knots.

The formula has no input for the shape of the hull. It just calculates the speed required to lift 2300 pounds. It also does not indicate how difficult it will be to get the hull to 13.9 knots. However, in my ignorance, I believe it may be somewhat representative. If the boat was surfing down a wave at 13.9 knots, it may very well be planing.

[2Blackdogs]

Looks like Uncle Ray got "called in".

A rule of thumb is that the larger the city, hospital, emergency room, fire department or police force, the more sophisticated the attention to official inquiry. Europe, I'm reading today, has the technology to find fingerprints on anything made of metal, even if it's old or submerged. European laboratories are far better funded than US laboratories.

When an agency has only a handful of annual investigations like this one (or even fewer), it's not going to be sophisticated at all. Worse, the investigation in a tourist-dependent state is subject to fierce political and economic community pressures.

Perhaps "the showing to the door" of Safety Director Dick Flynn will change that impression, but funding to the NHMP is already such a rarity that the radar guns, the radar survey, and officer's radar training were grieved as major expenses. Or so we were told here. The survey itself was widely criticized as unscientific, and suggested a political pressure at work to make the findings "turn out right".

The presence of alcohol evidence has turned this discussion to the real intent of the NHRBA, and that is to perpetuate a party-hardy atmosphere for Winni's cowboys. We haven't heard from the primary proponent of A.I.S. lately, especially with today's potentially embarrassing link to the NHRBA. It's too late to impeach the president of NHRBA now, but it could happen.

I hope you're wrong about the driver behind the wheel. That driver might be the one who cannot speak in defense.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

...
The presence of alcohol evidence has turned this discussion to the real intent of the NHRBA, and that is to perpetuate a party-hardy atmosphere for Winni's cowboys. We haven't heard from the primary proponent of A.I.S. lately, especially with today's potentially embarrassing link to the NHRBA. It's too late to impeach the president of NHRBA now, but it could happen.

I hope you're wrong about the driver behind the wheel. That driver might be the one who cannot speak in defense.

Here you go again...yet one more COMPLETELY uncalled for post.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Another story:

Jun 24, 10:48 AM EDT
Alcohol may have been involved in NH boat crash

GILFORD, N.H. (AP) -- Investigators are looking into possible criminal charges in a fatal boating accident on New Hampshire's Lake Winnipesaukee last week.

In court documents, the Marine Patrol said it is investigating whether the death of 34-year-old Stephanie Beaudoin, of Meredith, was a negligent homicide.

Court affidavits say a surviving passenger, 34-year-old Nicole Shinopulos, of Burlington, Massachusetts, told investigators she and the two other women on the boat had been drinking before they crashed into Diamond Island around 2:30 a.m. on June 15.

The boat's driver, 34-year-old Erica Blizzard, of Laconia, suffered serious injuries. Blizzard is the president of the New Hampshire Recreational Boaters Association, which has opposed boating speed limits on the lake.

She is in stable condition at Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center in Lebanon.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...06-24-10-48-28
------------------

And, as I posted earlier, the boat was going too fast for the conditions.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by RI Swamp Yankee

And, as I posted earlier, the boat was going too fast for the conditions.

Please don't take this the wrong way:

How fast were they going again? I don't recall reading what the investigators determined their speed to be?

As a general comment, enough with the speculation. We need to let the investigators sort this out before anybody jumps to conclusions.

[COWISLAND NH]

Can we get some hard facts please...like the Marine patrol accident log form last year...if any one wants to point fingers at who had the most accidents and why lets see who they really were. I can not stand the finger pointing at people apposed to the speed limit. SPEED???Let's try someone making a bad judgment....plain and simple folks!

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Ryan

.. How fast were they going again? I don't recall reading what the investigators determined their speed to be? ...

Correct, it hasn't been determined what the actual number was but whatever it was it was higher than the definition of safe speed. If the actual speed was lower than the safe speed, the operator would have been able to "take proper and effective action to avoid collision".

Safe Speed

A safe speed is a speed less than the maximum at which the operator can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and stop within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In establishing a safe operating speed, the operator must take into account visibility; traffic density; ability to maneuver the vessel (stopping distance and turning ability); background light at night; proximity of navigational hazards; draft of the vessel; limitations of radar equipment; and the state of wind, sea, and current.

[Airwaves]

Orignally posted by RI Swamp Yankee
Safe Speed

A safe speed is a speed less than the maximum at which the operator can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and stop within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In establishing a safe operating speed, the operator must take into account visibility; traffic density; ability to maneuver the vessel (stopping distance and turning ability); background light at night; proximity of navigational hazards; draft of the vessel; limitations of radar equipment; and the state of wind, sea, and current.

That would be USCG NAV Rule 6, which doesn't exist in New Hampshire or Lake Winnipesaeukee.

When I offered it up as a compromise to the useless 45/25 speed limit not a single supporter of speed limits went for it...now you're quoting it? Why?

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

That would be USCG NAV Rule 6, which doesn't exist in New Hampshire or Lake Winnipesaeukee.

Also referred to as International Rule 6. There is a watered down version in the NH boating license course, Chapter 3.

3 -Maintain a safe speed.
Safe speed is the speed that ensures you will have ample time to avoid a collision and can stop within an appropriate distance. Safe speed will vary depending on conditions such as wind, water conditions, navigational hazards, visibility, surrounding vessel traffic density, and the maneuverability of your boat or PWC. Always reduce speed and navigate with extreme caution at night and when visibility is restricted.

http://www.boat-ed.com/nh/course/p3-...ringothers.htm

Originally Posted by Airwaves

When I offered it up as a compromise to the useless 45/25 speed limit not a single supporter of speed limits went for it...now you're quoting it? Why?

I avoided that 45/25 "debate" like the plague. The very tragic accident in this thread brought to mind that rule from the course I took LONG ago.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Airwaves
When I offered it up as a compromise to the useless 45/25 speed limit not a single supporter of speed limits went for it...now you're quoting it? Why?

Originally Posted by RI Swamp Yankee

I avoided that 45/25 "debate" like the plague. The very tragic accident in this thread brought to mind that rule from the course I took LONG ago.

Iintended to add:
With all the talk about what speed the boat was going and if it was over / under 25 there was a rule that had higher precedence. There does need to be a defined maximum that applies to ideal conditions. The condidions that night were not ideal so rule 6 applies.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by RI Swamp Yankee
The condidions that night were not ideal so rule 6 applies.

Unfortunately Rule 6 does NOT apply because it is not the law in New Hampshire. NH has not adopted it so it does not exist. I think it should, but it does not.

There has been much debate about the NH Boating Rules Guide and actual law and the language is different. The RSA covering what you are talking about deals with Negligent Operation of a boat. (I don't recall the RSA number off the top of my head) but it appears to fall short of Rule 6 which is why I advocated for the adoption of Rule 6 vs HB847. It would have added a tool to the Marine Patrol arsenal that would NOT cost additional money and addressed the safety issue that supporters of HB847 at least initally claimed was their concern.

At this point I agree with sa meredith, this thread is supposed to be for actual information regarding this tragic accident.

I am guilty of hijacking so I will refrain from other thoughts about Rule 6 until we actually know what happened.

If you'd like to start another thread to debate the merits of Rule 6 vs the NH RSA I'd love to take part in that!

AW

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Unfortunately Rule 6 does NOT apply because it is not the law in New Hampshire. NH has not adopted it so it does not exist. ...

Absolutely correct, I worded that badly. I should have said, Rule 6 should apply if you are a prudent boater. All of my boating took place in waters where that rule did apply, seemed like common sense. Same as the paved highway, speed limit may be 65 but when the rain and fog set in a prudent speed may be 45.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Added note: A version of rule 6 will go into effect 1-1-09 with HB847 (RSA 270)

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by RI Swamp Yankee

Correct, it hasn't been determined what the actual number was but whatever it was it was higher than the definition of safe speed. If the actual speed was lower than the safe speed, the operator would have been able to "take proper and effective action to avoid collision".

Safe Speed

A safe speed is a speed less than the maximum at which the operator can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and stop within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In establishing a safe operating speed, the operator must take into account visibility; traffic density; ability to maneuver the vessel (stopping distance and turning ability); background light at night; proximity of navigational hazards; draft of the vessel; limitations of radar equipment; and the state of wind, sea, and current.

As usual, let me interject the What If. Drunks don;t generally pay attention to those type of things. Not making a judgement, but it has become the norm for many years of accidents.

[VtSteve]

Well Blackdogs, they are investigating anything and everything, as many assumed. Your constant insinuations, riddled with sarcasm and demeaning language, pretty much put you in the position of an agenda poster. Regardless of the outcome of this accident, most of us could pretty much predict what you'd write for each potential outcome.

One of the chief criticisms in the SL arguments is that many of us have read about numerous accident stories, seen the raw data, and tried to discuss solutions as we both participate in boating and care for ourselves and others. While others have distorted data, misinterpreted it, or even ignored it altogether.

In the end, all that counts is safety and reducing accidents. Something tells me that's not your number one goal here.

[Airwaves]

The AP article that RI Swamp Yankee quotes is based on this article in the Laconia Citizen.

The AP story is heavily editied and the Laconia Citizen article relies exclusively on court documents filed to get various search warrants needed for the investigation.

To restate my point the AP article was based on the Laconia Citizen Article. The Citizen article was based on the reading of court documents. I did not see anywhere in the article where anyone involved in the investigation or accident was actually interviewed for the story.

This comes back to the ongoing reduction in newspaper workforce and the regurgitation of a marginal story as fact by other news organizations and drawing conclusions from it. It's going to get worse friends.

[Newbiesaukee]

Just a question. Is it the case that the bow letters are supposed to be above the rub rail? I am not the most experienced boatman, but this does not seem to be the case. What is the deal?

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

The AP article that RI Swamp Yankee quotes is based on this article in the Laconia Citizen.



This comes back to the ongoing reduction in newspaper workforce and the regurgitation of a marginal story as fact by other news organizations and drawing conclusions from it. It's going to get worse friends.

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...sh&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.

[HUH]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...sh&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.

I would say that its "Ironic" that she was the head of a lobbying group against a boating bill. But the Bill had nothing to do with drinking and the facts are not in as to whether speed was a factor/issue.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Turtle Boy
Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal.

Yes, the story is marginal in its accuracy.

It was written based entirely on affidavits submitted to the courts in order to get a search warrant and not on any evidence uncovered or conclusions drawn by investigators. Just a routine justification by investigators for permission to search for evidence.

As I pointed out no one, not a single person appears to have been interviewed for the article to even question why the need for some of the items listed in the affidavit.

It appears to be an affidavit submitted by a good investigator looking for permission from the courts to tear the boat appart and not overlook anything but no reporter questioned why this or why that. It's much easier to just get the court documents and write your story based on them without doing any footwork, cheaper too!

Very very very poor reporting and it's regurgitated statewide through AP so it becomes "fact". The "Union Leader" article you provided a link to just proves my point. It is the same Laconia Citizen article under the AP title. The Union Leader did not do their own reporting on the story, just regurgitated a marginally accurate story.

It's going to get worse, and not just with this story unfortunately

[Rinkerfam]

I was half paying attention to WMUR's eleven o'clock broadcast when I thought I heard it stated that the NH Marine Patrol was leaning toward a negligent homicide case with regard to the incident at Diamond Island. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this?

[EricP]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...sh&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.

You are exactly the person the press is appealing to. I lost respect for the press many years ago. You still buy into it and believe everything they say is gospel.

[Airwaves]

Orignally posted by Rinkerfam
I was half paying attention to WMUR's eleven o'clock broadcast when I thought I heard it stated that the NH Marine Patrol was leaning toward a negligent homicide case with regard to the incident at Diamond Island. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this?

That was taken from the same Citizen/AP article that I've been talking about as not being very good reporting. In the Citizen article it says

"In support of the search warrant Dunleavy said the department is currently investigating whether a negligent homicide occurred."

So if WMUR reported that the Marine Patrol is leaning toward a negligent homicide case it is further distortion of an initally badly reported, poorly written story.

See how easy it is when you don't do your own work?

[2Blackdogs]

Waterbaby wrote,

No matter how many times I read this, I cannot make it relevant to this thread.

That's because, "You ain't going to learn what you don't want to know"

But that's my fault as well, for using an NHRBA abbreviation repeated most often at this Winni.com forum.

A.I.S. stands for "Alcohol Induced Stupidity", a term much repeated by the NHRBA. Didn't the NHRBA shoot itself in the foot with A.I.S., or what?

I also neglected to include the quotes I was answering. These were:

Big Kahuna's.

It might have been Erica's boat, but who says she was driving? Maybe she was letting someone else drive, that may explain a lot.

A survivor, last described as "incoherent" at the scene, has confessed that everyone on board was drinking alcohol at a Wolfeboro bar scene. The driver was found at the helm. As of this morning, Big Kahuna's quote, therefore, is moot. (Note the correct spelling of moot, Skip. One could learn a lot from OSO's risk-takers, but safety for other boaters, expression of self, spelling, and grammar aren't among those things at OSO).

Wolfetrap may very well sell canned beer, but it's become painfully obvious that a Lake Winnipesaukee "party-hardy" atmosphere prevails among NHRBA officials.

They, in their self-congratulatory and collective stupors, conduct a not-so-stealthy endangerment upon us Winni boaters. Like Littlefield.

Skip wrote,

All Departments in this State utilize neighboring community experts, each County Attorney's Office, the State Attorney General's Office, the NH State Police, the State Police Crime Lab and a long list of private and federal agencies to assist in all levels of evidence gathering and criminal investigation and prosecution.

And that's why Littlefield's prosecution turned out so swell?

Dick Flynn never saw a political pie he wouldn't stick his finger into.

If citizens don't hold the NHMP's feet to the fire in this case, the underfunded and disfunctional regime commanded by the former, mostly invisible, Safety Director will assure that PC will rule the waves instead of reason.

Lt. Dunleavy may not attribute his "shooting star" success to Dick Flynn, but you'll notice that Dunleavy, a personal and influental friend of some here, is being supported in this forum with full public access. That is to say, a politically-supported, bootlicking presence. PC run amok.

This disgraced "Safety Director" managed to throw in one last monkey wrench. You'll recall "The Survey" please.

And Nightwing's.

If LT. Dunleavy said 28mph, then that is what it was.

Ditto for the above. Politically-supported PC run amok.

Now, where are the benefits of a "Rule 6" for Winni in this case?

And my much-criticized "rule of thumb" will have my family going to Boston for any major surgery, and not to Laconia.

In short, I hope this investigation is more thorough than Littlefield's.

[COWISLAND NH]

WOW 2Blackdogs you seem to be very angry. Why not hate the drunk drivers instead of the boaters who go faster then you? To categorize every boater who has a go fast boat as drunken reckless captains is just not right. Both highly publicized accidents that have been discussed on this thread are related to the operator under the influence (speculation). I just can not see your point on justifying a speed limit related to these accidents. Have you every seen a couple of teenagers not paying attention on their jet skies or an overcrowded boat full of excited kids with dad pulling them in a tube....accidents happen...I've seen it 1st hand!

[kthy66]

2Blackdogs you really need to come out of your shell hon and tell us how you really feel...

More info this morning in the Citizen

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...824/-1/CITNEWS

[SIKSUKR]

FATJACK is Back

[Skip]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

FATJACK is Back

You beat me to it.....I hereby nominate you Chief of the Missing Posters Bureau!

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

FATJACK is Back

SS: Does Fat Jack = 2 Black Dogs?

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by kthy66

2Blackdogs you really need to come out of your shell hon and tell us how you really feel...

More info this morning in the Citizen

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...824/-1/CITNEWS

It looks like they did not take samples for 9 hours after the crash. Is it possible to get an accurate reading after that amount of time passes?

I assume they took two samples an hour apart to determine the time but how accurate can that be?

[Jeti]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

It looks like they did not take samples for 9 hours after the crash. Is it possible to get an accurate reading after that amount of time passes?

I assume they took two samples an hour apart to determine the time but how accurate can that be?

Number of units drunk - Number of hours since last drink = Alcohol content

For example: A person drinks 6 pints of an ordinary strength beer (12 units), finishing drinking at 11pm. They start work at 8am the following day. (9 Hours later).

12 Units - 9 hours = 3. In this scenario, the person could still have 3-4 units of alcohol left in their body whilst driving to work the following day - risking both Police prosecution and the safety of others. 3-4 Units will bring most men to the USA legal driving limit of 80mg/dl and 3 units for most women.

[Newbiesaukee]

Although there is some variability, two points on the curve and knowledge of alcohol metabolism, etc. would allow you to extrapolate and come up with an accurate estimate of alcohol blood level at the time of the accident.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

It looks like they did not take samples for 9 hours after the crash. Is it possible to get an accurate reading after that amount of time passes?

I assume they took two samples an hour apart to determine the time but how accurate can that be?

Jeti & Newbi have answered your question correctly. The procedures utilized by the NHMP to obtain the two samples over a fixed time are well established and Court accepted practices.

Once again (hateful diatribes to the contrary) the NHMP appears to be following all accepted protocol in what appears to be a thorough and fair investigation.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Skip

Once again (hateful diatribes to the contrary) the NHMP appears to be following all accepted protocol in what appears to be a thorough and fair investigation.

Well said Skip. The realists know it will be thorough and fair. However, the conspiracy theorists on this forum have already concluded that the results of the investigation (should said results not determine the outcome that said theorists hope for), will have been fixed. Atrocious.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Well said Skip. The realists know it will be thorough and fair. However, the conspiracy theorists on this forum have already concluded that the results of the investigation (should said results not determine the outcome that said theorists hope for), will have been fixed. Atrocious.

They pretty much have to, they're only concerned about one issue, and it's become very apparent that their only real focus is a certain boating niche. Since the Littlefield accident is usually part of every heated discussion by a couple of these "concerned citizens", I can only think that that accident blinded them permanently. Speed wasn't a biggie in that case, alcohol was. The fact that he was piloting a Baja made their eyes permanently red whenever they see a GF boat. Regardless of all the boating accidents that happen resulting from alcohol, the only dangerous boaters in their mind are the GF crowd. It's more of a vendetta for a select group, some others just joined because it seemed like the thing to do. But when you talk about enforcement and existing laws being broken, they all clam right up.

There are some very good and decent people on board that support the speed limits. There are a couple of real flakes that appear to be blinded by hate. Reason be darned. Their comments from the beginning of this developing story are downright sickening.

[2Blackdogs]

It's not exactly a conspiracy, but why was this news conference been called in the middle of the week? Oftentimes, controversial bills are signed on a Friday to dumb-down the public's reactions to his signature over a weekend.

Nobody outside of government circles knows the BAC readings, but the Governor might have asked prosecutors today and called a news conference promptly upon hearing bad news.

That way, he has "culpable deniability" to an extreme BAC level returned by clinicians and can distance himself from that cloud of misery hanging over the NHRBA, with whom he probably has posed for pictures.

Skip, You missed on your guess. My treatment here doesn't rise to the level that another member has had to endure. Maybe fire your new Chief and pick up where you left off?
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...3&postcount=36

Kathy writes,

2Blackdogs you really need to come out of your shell hon and tell us how you really feel...

So? I ran out of Decaf two days ago. Ingestion of certain liquids can have deleterious effects on the well-being of individuals and others.

And don't call me hon.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

It's not exactly a conspiracy, but why was this news conference been called in the middle of the week? Oftentimes, controversial bills are signed on a Friday to dumb-down the public's reactions to his signature over a weekend.

Nobody outside of government circles knows the BAC readings, but the Governor might have asked prosecutors today and called a news conference promptly upon hearing bad news.

That way, he has "culpable deniability" to an extreme BAC level returned by clinicians and can distance himself from that cloud of misery hanging over the NHRBA, with whom he probably has posed for pictures.

Skip, You missed on your guess. My treatment here doesn't rise to the level that another member has had to endure. Maybe fire your new Chief and pick up where you left off?
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...3&postcount=36

Kathy writes,


So? I ran out of Decaf two days ago. Ingestion of certain liquids can have deleterious effects on the well-being of individuals and others.

And don't call me hon.

So what if the skipper's BAL was 2.0? What's you smart arse reply to that? Maybe they should pass a law sting it's too high to drive a boat?

Give it a rest Blackdog. You're not a positive influence for anyone's side. You obviously have an axe to grind, and could give a darn about any facts.

[kthy66]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

And don't call me hon.

hmmm,, touchy touchy...
Better than calling you what you truly are (webmaster doesnt like those words)
bahahahahaha,,

[2Blackdogs]

Originally Posted by kthy66

hmmm,, touchy touchy...
Better than calling you what you truly are (webmaster doesnt like those words)
bahahahahaha,,

And don't call me hon should have been followed with a . But I forgot.

[Rose]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

If citizens don't hold the NHMP's feet to the fire in this case, the underfunded and disfunctional regime commanded by the former, mostly invisible, Safety Director will assure that PC will rule the waves instead of reason.

If you're going to rip someone else a new one for their spelling, you better make certain all of yours is correct. Or maybe your spellchecker is dysfunctional.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Rose

If you're going to rip someone else a new one for their spelling, you better make certain all of yours is correct. Or maybe your spellchecker is dysfunctional.

Atta girl!

[Waterbaby]

Originally Posted by Rose

If you're going to rip someone else a new one for their spelling, you better make certain all of yours is correct. Or maybe your spellchecker is dysfunctional.

All Right, Rose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

Waterbaby wrote,

That's because, "You ain't going to learn what you don't want to know"

But that's my fault as well, for using an NHRBA abbreviation repeated most often at this Winni.com forum.

A.I.S. stands for "Alcohol Induced Stupidity", a term much repeated by the NHRBA. Didn't the NHRBA shoot itself in the foot with A.I.S., or what?

I also neglected to include the quotes I was answering. These were:

Big Kahuna's.
A survivor, last described as "incoherent" at the scene, has confessed that everyone on board was drinking alcohol at a Wolfeboro bar scene. The driver was found at the helm. As of this morning, Big Kahuna's quote, therefore, is moot. (Note the correct spelling of moot, Skip. One could learn a lot from OSO's risk-takers, but safety for other boaters, expression of self, spelling, and grammar aren't among those things at OSO).

Wolfetrap may very well sell canned beer, but it's become painfully obvious that a Lake Winnipesaukee "party-hardy" atmosphere prevails among NHRBA officials.

They, in their self-congratulatory and collective stupors, conduct a not-so-stealthy endangerment upon us Winni boaters. Like Littlefield.

Skip wrote,

And that's why Littlefield's prosecution turned out so swell?

Dick Flynn never saw a political pie he wouldn't stick his finger into.

If citizens don't hold the NHMP's feet to the fire in this case, the underfunded and disfunctional regime commanded by the former, mostly invisible, Safety Director will assure that PC will rule the waves instead of reason.

Lt. Dunleavy may not attribute his "shooting star" success to Dick Flynn, but you'll notice that Dunleavy, a personal and influental friend of some here, is being supported in this forum with full public access. That is to say, a politically-supported, bootlicking presence. PC run amok.

This disgraced "Safety Director" managed to throw in one last monkey wrench. You'll recall "The Survey" please.

And Nightwing's.


Ditto for the above. Politically-supported PC run amok.

Now, where are the benefits of a "Rule 6" for Winni in this case?

And my much-criticized "rule of thumb" will have my family going to Boston for any major surgery, and not to Laconia.

In short, I hope this investigation is more thorough than Littlefield's.

And the phrase that you have incorrectly used on at least 2 posts is "party hearty"

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...sh&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.

The state wide embarrassment Could be, that once again, speed limits have nothing to do with the accident. If you bark up the wrong tree too long, your neck will be permanently strained.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

...A rule of thumb is that the larger the city, hospital, emergency room, fire department or police force, the more sophisticated the attention to official inquiry...When an agency has only a handful of annual investigations like this one (or even fewer), it's not going to be sophisticated at all. Worse, the investigation in a tourist-dependent state is subject to fierce political and economic community pressures...

Normally I ignore deliberate attempts to troll, but I'll make an exception this time to reassure the readers that this invetigation is in safe & capable hands.

As has been noted by numerous public sources, the lead investigator is Lt. Tim Dunleavy of the NHMP. Dunleavy is a career full time law enforcement supervisor that is recognized by the New Hampshire Court system, Underwriters Labratory and the United States Coast Guard as an expert in boat accident reconstruction amongst a number of other qualifications & duties, and can and has succesfully testified to same.

He also has extensive experience in responiding to, investigating, and succesfully prosecuting numerous criminal violations of the State's boating regulations, including a fair share of the fatalities that have occured on our waters the last few decades.

Finally, numerous serious crimes occur throughout our State in various small locals on an annual basis. All Departments in this State utilize neighboring community experts, each County Attorney's Office, the State Attorney General's Office, the NH State Police, the State Police Crime Lab and a long list of private and federal agencies to assist in all levels of evidence gathering and criminal investigation and prosecution.

The root cause of this tragedy will be thoroughly investigated and the public will have timely and relevant material released at the appropriate juncture, just as today's new stories have proven.

While it takes only the ability to operate a keyboard to be a troll, rest assured that the folks in charge of this investigation are much more qualified than the naysayers at their respective craft.

Skip

[Waterbaby]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

Looks like Uncle Ray got "called in".

A rule of thumb is that the larger the city, hospital, emergency room, fire department or police force, the more sophisticated the attention to official inquiry. Europe, I'm reading today, has the technology to find fingerprints on anything made of metal, even if it's old or submerged. European laboratories are far better funded than US laboratories.

When an agency has only a handful of annual investigations like this one (or even fewer), it's not going to be sophisticated at all. Worse, the investigation in a tourist-dependent state is subject to fierce political and economic community pressures.

Perhaps "the showing to the door" of Safety Director Dick Flynn will change that impression, but funding to the NHMP is already such a rarity that the radar guns, the radar survey, and officer's radar training were grieved as major expenses. Or so we were told here. The survey itself was widely criticized as unscientific, and suggested a political pressure at work to make the findings "turn out right".

The presence of alcohol evidence has turned this discussion to the real intent of the NHRBA, and that is to perpetuate a party-hardy atmosphere for Winni's cowboys. We haven't heard from the primary proponent of A.I.S. lately, especially with today's potentially embarrassing link to the NHRBA. It's too late to impeach the president of NHRBA now, but it could happen.

I hope you're wrong about the driver behind the wheel. That driver might be the one who cannot speak in defense.

No matter how many times I read this, I cannot make it relevant to this thread.....................please don't elaborate, I'm not sure it will help your cause.

[flyry49]

Originally Posted by UncleRay

According to the tests on this hull, it looks to plane off at about 19/20 mph.

http://www.boattest.com/oem/general-...381#TestResult



If you care to run the math, this will get you close:

Minimum Planing Speed in Knots:

2.3 x ((32.2 x (all up displacement in pounds)^0.333)^0.5)/1.6889

For example, an 18' boat at 2,323.2 pounds (including crew) may plane at 13.902 knots.

The formula has no input for the shape of the hull. It just calculates the speed required to lift 2300 pounds. It also does not indicate how difficult it will be to get the hull to 13.9 knots. However, in my ignorance, I believe it may be somewhat representative. If the boat was surfing down a wave at 13.9 knots, it may very well be planing.

i can tell you right now that this boat wont fully plane out till close to 30 mph but why don't we leave this investigation to the investigators? my thoughts and prayers are with the people involved

[hockeypuck]

Everyone is a critic and I have no clue what happen on that night in question, except that it was a tragedy to all involved.
Imagine this for one moment. Pick a large parking lot, like to a mall or something, one that you have been to 100's of times. Go there at 2:00 in the morning with heavy cloud cover, maybe throw in a downpour and no lights on in the parking lot. Now turn off your head lights and drive around at 25 miles an hour. Even though you are familiar with the location of light poles and the location of stores, chances are an accident is about to happen.
You could say poor judgement, but who among us has never been guilty of poor judgement. Could be a mechanical problem, an investigation may find that. Could be other factors involved. NO matter, it's still a tragedy. The best that can come out of this is that other boaters will take extra precautions so that it doesn't happen again.

[tony1122]

What about the gun that was found on the boat that night?
Who gun was it ?

[sa meredith]

Post number 1?????
Gun???????
Will it ever stop?
I am curious though..I thought the results were due? Anyone know the timetable.
I, for one, am quite familiar with a boater "losing their way."

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Post number 1?????
Gun???????
Will it ever stop?
I am curious though..I thought the results were due? Anyone know the timetable.
I, for one, am quite familiar with a boater "losing their way."

Can't be anything but a troll...

[webmaster]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Can't be anything but a troll...

Could be. I'll give tony1122 the rest of the day to post where he got this information or some corroboration. If he doesn't his post will be removed.

Thanks to everyone who reported the post.

[tony1122]

a mp officer that was on the boat that night

[ishoot308]

Since when is it illegal to have a firearm on your boat????

Dan

[parrothead]

The gun is kinda irrelevant when there was no evidence that it was fired. If it existed at all.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Oh man what's next, are we going to hear how the CIA projected a false image of the island to cause the crash because one of the occupants learned the "truth" about WTC #7 ?

[Airwaves]

I have stayed out of the fray until now.

I just want to point out that based on what has been written by Skip quoting NH Media at the end of July, and based on a conversation I had with a colleague who works the NH beat prior to the article in the Citizen. I think it's reasonable to assume that the NHMP has decided to seek an indictment.

Why do I say this? The accident occurred on Father's Day and we are now approaching Labor Day. If it were a cut and dry case one way or the other an arraignment would have had already happened or the case would have had already been closed.

I don't know the indictment process in NH so don't jump all over me if the NHMP isn't the agency that legally seeks an indictment.

So I would speculate...there's that word again...that if anyone knows the schedule of the Grand Jury and how and when indiictments are handed down and released, that is the time table to be looking at.

Of course just because an indictment is sought before a Grand Jury it doesn't mean an indictment is automatically handed down, pretty close to it but not automatic.

It's been my experience in MA that indictments are sought to speed up the process of charging someone with a serious crime not to slow the process down unless the evidence is not concrete and the prosecution wants a "second opinon" so to speak.

I am sure Skip or others will correct me if I'm wrong about how it works in NH, but as I understand the process, if you are brought before a Grand Jury as the target of an investigation the prosecutiion lays out its evidence but the target doesn't have defense counsel present and it's all done in secret, closed to the public. It's a one way argument and usually the prosecution gets the indictment.

On the other hand if a person is arraigned in court shortly after the "offense" and pleads not guilty a "probable cause" court hearing is scheduled. That hearing is open to the public, defense is there and presents prelimiary arguments as well as the prosecution and the magistrate or judge decides if there is "probable cause" to proceed to trial.

I may have skipped a step or two but that's the jist of it as I understand the process.

So, because no one has dropped the case declaring that there was no crime and this was just a terrible accident but no one has been arrested or arraigned, I will draw the SPECULATIVE conclusion that at this point it's going to end up before a Grand Jury.

BTW, if there was a gun I doubt that it would be entered into evidence because to my knowledge there was no gunplay. Many merchants that deal in cash carry guns, even in Mass!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Since when is it illegal to have a firearm on your boat????

Dan

Dan

Depends on the type of firearm and if its loaded.



RSA 207:7

II. No person shall have or carry, in or on a motor vehicle, OHRV, or aircraft, whether moving or stationary, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

III. No person shall have in or on a boat or other craft while being propelled by mechanical power, or in a boat or other craft being towed by a boat or other craft propelled by mechanical power, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

You also can't hunt deer or bear on the islands.

[HUH]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Dan

Depends on the type of firearm and if its loaded.



RSA 207:7

II. No person shall have or carry, in or on a motor vehicle, OHRV, or aircraft, whether moving or stationary, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

III. No person shall have in or on a boat or other craft while being propelled by mechanical power, or in a boat or other craft being towed by a boat or other craft propelled by mechanical power, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

You also can't hunt deer or bear on the islands.

Says cocked or loaded.. With a licence to carry you can do both.. No there is no hunting on the islands.. at least until the poulation explodes and the herd is starving to death, do they call in the "enviromentalists".

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

You also can't hunt deer or bear on the islands.

So, what is the name given to the occasional event that occurs on Long Island?

Originally Posted by F&G: Frequently Asked Questions - Hunting

What's up with the Long Island deer hunt?
An annual archery hunt takes place on Long Island in Moultonboro, N.H. It is open only to bow hunters who have obtained written landowner permission on a form that can be picked up at Fish and Game headquarters in Concord; or individuals can call the Wildlife Division at (603) 271-2461 to request a form by mail. Attached to the forms are the pertinent rules and laws that govern this hunt. The hunt begins the first weekday in October and runs through December 15 except for certain weekends and holidays that are outlined in the rules. Once the landowner forms are completed, permits must be purchased at Fish and Game headquarters starting August 1.

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Hunt...qs_hunting.htm

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by GWC...

So, what is the name given to the occasional event that occurs on Long Island?



http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Hunt...qs_hunting.htm

Well first thing.... Long Island isn't really an island, is it. If you drive to your cabin you don't live on an island.

There is special permission for hunting on Long because of the exploding deer population. A number of years ago they had to bring in a sharpshooter to reduce the herd.

[HUH]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Well first thing.... Long Island isn't really an island, is it. If you drive to your cabin you don't live on an island.

There is special permission for hunting on Long because of the exploding deer population. A number of years ago they had to bring in a sharpshooter to reduce the herd.

A "bridged island" is not a peninsula.

[Airwaves]

HELLO!!!

And the posts regarding gun rights, hunting on an island and whether Long Island is a real island because there's a bridge have to do with the Diamond Island accident...HOW?

Another Hi-Jacked Thread

[chipj29]

In my opinion, even if there was a gun, who cares? As far as we know, there has been no mention of a gun by anyone involved in the accident. We should not even be discussing it...complete waste of time.

[sa meredith]

So folks...you all realize you gave this gun poster (post #1) exactly what he was looking for. You know that, right?

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

RSA 207:7

III. No person shall have in or on a boat or other craft while being propelled by mechanical power, or in a boat or other craft being towed by a boat or other craft propelled by mechanical power, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

So you're saying the Zuni's mounted on deck are legal but the twin BMG50's that pop out the side ports are best kept hidden ....

[gtxrider]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Dan

Depends on the type of firearm and if its loaded.



RSA 207:7

II. No person shall have or carry, in or on a motor vehicle, OHRV, or aircraft, whether moving or stationary, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

III. No person shall have in or on a boat or other craft while being propelled by mechanical power, or in a boat or other craft being towed by a boat or other craft propelled by mechanical power, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

You also can't hunt deer or bear on the islands.

It does not mention if a hand gun is allowed.

[Kamper]

All my comments on guns are deleted so further thread jacking is not encouraged.

[KonaChick]

WOW, very enlightening post about guns. I can't imagine why anyone would feel the need to be locked and loaded while boating on Winni...and to think all I carry with me when I'm boating is my sunscreen!!

[VitaBene]

Kona LOL, but if you are permitted to carry you can't leave your weapon in your car (unless gun locked and really secure. It is usually better to take it with you, though I can't imagine carrying on Winni either!!

[chipj29]

The gun discussion in this thread should be dropped IMO. The poster who brought it up has no factual evidence that there was any kind of gun involved in this incident. Move it to a new thread, please!!

[Tank151]

chipj29

I agree! There is NO factual evidence of a gun on this vessel. Let's drop it NOW!

[KonaChick]

I don't like reading the gun comments either and tried to add some levity to the situation with my post but on the same token people have posted lots of things here that haven't been factually based and no one is demanding that those be stopped. What gives? If you think someone is a troll ignore their posts, it's simple! Just my 2 cents......

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by chipj29

The gun discussion in this thread should be dropped IMO. The poster who brought it up has no factual evidence that there was any kind of gun involved in this incident. Move it to a new thread, please!!

Whether or not a gun was on the boat makes absolutely no difference in the cause or the outcome of the accident. Why even bring it up?

[Lakegeezer]

Its been two and a half months since the incident occured. What is the typical delay before public information is released? It had a big impact on the lake community, well beyond those involved and their friends, yet there has been little official information made public. At this point, what's wrong with a little speculation, even if absurd. Maybe it will spur the authorities to put out enough information to change the focus of attention to what really happened.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Its been two and a half months since the incident occured. What is the typical delay before public information is released? It had a big impact on the lake community, well beyond those involved and their friends, yet there has been little official information made public. At this point, what's wrong with a little speculation, even if absurd. Maybe it will spur the authorities to put out enough information to change the focus of attention to what really happened.

Because of the magnitude of the situation (death involved), I am sure all investigative parties want to ensure they dot their "I's" and crosss their "T's" before releasing anything publicly. I would rather they wait to make sure that whatever is released is based solely on fact and test results, not rumor, speculation, or pending results. Premature conjecture only hurts all parties involved.

Let's all wait patiently and see what the facts are in this devastaing situation.

The only real fact we all know now is that a Father lost his Daughter on Fathers day, and that is tragic...

Dan

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Its been two and a half months since the incident occured. What is the typical delay before public information is released? ...

A year, or more, is not uncommon.

[Skip]

According to the NHMP the case remains active and under review.

Latest details can be read at the Citizen HERE.

[Winnipesaukee]

Who cares if there was a gun onboard? If there was, good for them.

[twoplustwo]

This tragedy isn't well served by your unique attempts at humor, FLL.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by twoplustwo

This tragedy isn't well served by your unique attempts at humor, FLL.

This tragedy does not deserve humor.

[Skip]

Three families have been utterly devastated by this crash.

The legal system is now going to determine ultimate responsibility.

My gosh, its the height of the Holiday season.

Could we please leave the sophmoric and insensitive attempts at humor out of the conversation?

[4Fun]

Were there any details of the BAC made public? I personally think there is a big difference in .08 vs .1 or .2somehting....

[Airwaves]

I guess I am a little confused about why the double negligent homicide charge.

This is from a blog by the law firm Burke & Eisner commenting on the Blizzard indictment

Negligent homide is a class B felony and the penalty could be up to 7 years in prison. Negligent homicide that occurs while operating a vehicle or boat while under the influence of alcohol or drugs is a class A felony and the penalty could be up to 15 years in prison.

So is there an issue with the BAC? It seems to me that the prosecutor appears to be trying for the class A felony but may not have the evidence to convict her of that and get the longer penalty so he's bringing the second charge to try to make sure that one of the charges stick?

I note in reading the blog from the law firm that the penalty is not the same for both classes of felony as the Union Leader article stated.

Union Leader: She can only be convicted on one of the charges, both of which carry penalties of up to 15 years in prison.

[jeffk]

Since it seems to me that a vigorous defense would probably challenge any prosecution evidence that it could, the prosecutor may just be trying to be thorough by preparing the second charge. It might also be leverage to force a plea.

It seems to me that defending against the general negligence charge will be very difficult since it is based on what a "reasonable person" would do and almost every boat accident can show some form of negligence, too fast for conditions, insufficient lookout, zigged when you should have zagged, etc.

This is all just speculation since we don't know many critical facts of the case nor what the strategy of the prosecution or defense will be.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jeffk

...Since it seems to me that a vigorous defense would probably challenge any prosecution evidence that it could, the prosecutor may just be trying to be thorough by preparing the second charge. It might also be leverage to force a plea...

Hi Jeff,

You are absolutely correct, and this is standard procedure especially in cases involving alcohol and/or drugs and homicides.... plus a list of other felony offenses.

As an example, the Littlefield case involved multiple indictments.

Its a common practice that has been utilized for decades across the Country.

[Airwaves]

There is one more count to the indictment handed down that I am not familiar with. This is taken from the NH law firm blog I linked to in my last post.

one count of aggravated driving

What does that mean?

[trfour]

Airwaves, i think it means a simple case of road rage...

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

There is one more count to the indictment handed down that I am not familiar with. This is taken from the NH law firm blog I linked to in my last post.

What does that mean?

Elements of both the Union Leader story and the blog you cite are in error. That is why the best and only reliable source is the Belknap County Attorney's Office.

She is charged with negligent homicide in a dual indictment, a common practice in cases like this.

The stronger indictment is the aggravated DWI accusation with death resulting. This is a Class A felony, with a possible penalty of imprisonment in excess of seven years.

A "fall back" indictment, in case the State cannot get a conviction on the impairment evidence they intend to introduce, will be negligent homicide based on some aspects of the operation of the vessel that night. Less the proof of alcohol or drug impairment, Negligent Homicide is a Class B felony with possible imprisonment not to exceed 7 years.

For those wishing to research the matter further, penalty definitions can be found under RSA 625:9 and Negligent Homicide information can be found by perusing RSA 630:3.

Hope this clears it up a little better....

[Airwaves]

So is the third indictment the one actually involving an "accident"?

From Skip:
A Class A felony penalty is IN EXCESS OF 7 YEARS if she is convicted of being above the legal BAC.

A Class B felony penaly is NOT TO EXCEDE 7 YEARS is if she is convicted of NOT being above the legal BAC.

So the Aggrivated driving charge is if she is convicted of being.... ????

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

So is the third indictment the one actually involving an "accident"?



So the Aggrivated driving charge is if she is convicted of being.... ????

As I stated earlier, both the Union Leader & the blog you cite have erroneous information.

There is no "aggravated driving" charge as there is no such RSA. Possibly the blog meant to state "aggravated driving while intoxicated".

There are 2 indictments presenting 2 different theories. Both indictments are for negligent homicide. The leading indictment is the Class A felony charge of negligent homicide/aggravated BWI. The second indictment, a Class B felony, is for negligent homicide due to operation.

It appears to me that both articles were mangled by inappropriate editing. A fairly common occurence within the news media and also in blogs where more than one individual is responsible for content.

[Airwaves]

Or...you could answer the question if you are able without being insulting and snarky!

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Or...you could answer the question if you are able without being insulting and snarky!

You're welcome.

Have a very Merry Christmas!

[Sunrise Point]

Skip,

Thank you for your latest posts. I did not find them snarky or insulting at all but very informative.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Or...you could answer the question if you are able without being insulting and snarky!

Snarky - sarcastically critical or mocking and malicious

Not hardly!

Skip, thanks for all the unbiased legal and general wisdom you bring to this forum.

R2B

[Pine Island Guy]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Or...you could answer the question if you are able without being insulting and snarky!

I've read and reread Skip's response and only see it as stating the facts and very explanatory!

Happy Christmas to all and to all a goodnight... PIG

[trfour]

Have a Very Merry Christmas Everyone!

Card; http://www.jacquielawson.com/viewcar...ode=XE13117730

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by Pine Island Guy

I've read and reread Skip's response and only see it as stating the facts and very explanatory!

Happy Christmas to all and to all a goodnight... PIG

Agreed. Skip is a valuable asset and he is explains things well. I didn't find his post insulting to anyone. Keep up the good work Skip.