property tax oblivion

fatlazyless · 11-26-2007, 08:22 AM

Now that Meredith has recently sent out its' latest semi-annual property tax bill I hope that everyone has been able to recover from the shock. It's been a while since this topic was discussed so here's to starting a new thread. Like the saying goes, death and taxes are two things you can always count on.

Some often heard comment on NH prop taxes are that: 'We must cut the spending', or, 'We have no sales or income tax thanks to our property tax'

Honestly, I just cannot ever see the spending being cut. It just will not happen . Meredith uses it's first tuesday night in March, annual town meeting for its' time to vote and just about every big item gets passed. Recently, a new police station, new community center, and new athletic field all were passed on their first vote.

Over in Gilford, which uses an SB2 vote, in that the vote can be mailed in and gets a larger turn-out, items like a police station have been voted down.

The property tax used to be a pretty good system because the tax was fairly low. With the big run-up in property values coupled wih the increase in local spending, the property tax is no longer a low priced tax.

So, if you feel like I do, then you want to 'Ax the Property Tax' and go with an income tax. Ouch, did I really say that(?).

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Maybe voters in Moultonboro can see the light and decide to dismiss their State Rep Betsey 'no comment' Patten, who also chairs the State Board of Assessors. She pretty much ignored a petition signed by 6000 north country residents recently who are very unhappy with their 'view tax', and then dissed them at a public meeting by simply refusing to comment. Communication, pro or con, is a big part of being a politician, and for her to simply refuse to comment was not appreciated. So, maybe it's time for Moultonboro voters to think twice before again voting for their state rep, Betsey 'no comment' Patten.

Lakegeezer · 11-26-2007, 12:25 PM

Putting in an income tax will not likely reduce the property tax for long if at all, so why bother. Instead, an income tax will drive high talent - high paying jobs from NH. The state does not need the brain drain. Now, ask me in a few years when I retire from the workplace and still have property. My tune may change to; "let the working man pay more". For now, I don't think any working person should be fooled into thinking an income tax will reduce their tax bill. It will just fuel the tax and spenders money wasting machine. Local control may not be perfect, but its a lot easier than trying to control the state government.

AC2717 · 11-26-2007, 01:55 PM

Hello All,
I was wondering if anyone could tell me when I needed to file an appeal by for the city of Laconia?

SIKSUKR · 11-26-2007, 02:47 PM

AMEN LG.Less is more..,,I think?Well,more or Les.

radar4401 · 11-26-2007, 03:13 PM

I'd like to reply. While I'm not a native, my wife is and we retired here specifically because NH didn't have a sales tax or income tax. I was working in a state with a 7 3/4% sales tax and it really hurts, especially lower income people. I gladly pay the high property tax as it is more visible to the voters. With sales taxes, it comes a little at a time and isn't as noticeable. I recently renovated my house, and it would have cost me much more if there were a sales tax. Also, once they get a sales tax, it's too easy to raise it. My 2 cents worth.

hilltopper · 11-26-2007, 03:13 PM

I'm new to Meredith and noticed the increase (for me about 400 bucks more then the last 6 month bill). Do you know what the tax rate increase was? Also (and again, I'm new to the town as of May) I thought the Meredith police station was pretty damn new looking but you're saying they voted to build another? Why?

ITD · 11-26-2007, 04:55 PM

Think about it Less, you're asking to lower taxes by raising taxes (adding a new tax.). Stopping spending is not impossible, all it takes is a catalyst, and one thing I will give you is that you know how to whip things up. I hope with your passion, that you show up at town meetings and elections for that matter and speak your mind.

Irish mist · 11-26-2007, 05:06 PM

I feel your pain Hilltopper.......many of the local towns in the area have gone on building booms for new schools & fire stations & police stations & DPW buildings & lol, you get the picture. There was a time up here when the town officals were more frugal, and made due with what they had. The old Meredith station is indeed not that old. Laconia, on the other hand really did need a new police station.

jeffk · 11-26-2007, 05:28 PM

OR History repeating itself

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Honestly, I just cannot ever see the spending being cut. It just will not happen . Meredith uses it's first tuesday night in March, annual town meeting for its' time to vote and just about every big item gets passed. Recently, a new police station, new community center, and new athletic field all were passed on their first vote.

I fully agree that spending is very hard to control and real cutbacks are unlikely. However the proposed solution, an income tax, will simply be a disaster for most. How can we know that? Why just look a little to the West to our good neighbors in Vermont. Not that long ago they went through the exact process that we are going through. They had a property tax funded education system and it was ruled illegal through the courts. So what was the result of their transformation to a more enlightened system?

They have an income tax that ranges from 3.6 to 9.5 %

but wait, there's more.......

They have a sales tax of 6%

but wait, there's even more.......

Their property taxes are still used to fund education (how the heck did that happen?). The overall rates are very difficult to figure out because there is a state component for basic education around 1.1%. Individual towns can increase education spending above the basic amount and also add in town operating expenses. In addition, lower income residents can get a rebate (through a convoluted formula) on the education portion of the property tax. All this calculation makes it very hard to state a specific rate for any particular Vermont town. My guess is that the people in charge don't mind this because it makes it easier to confuse the taxpayers and easier to slip by increases. That said, I would guesstimate that the total property tax rate is around 1.75% minus any rebate. Since the median NH property tax rate is around 1.75% Vermont seems to do a bit better in property taxes.

Overall however, Vermont has the largest total state and local tax burden in the country!

So why wasn't Vermont saved by changing to the world saving income tax? We go right back to FLL's quote, spending was not controlled. Well, we wouldn't let that kind of spending happen in New Hampshire, would we?

When someone with big spending ideas comes to the state government in New Hampshire now, the reps can honestly say "We can't afford it!". They can't afford it because there is no tax generating engine for the state. As soon as you put an income or sales tax (probably both) in place you have installed a tax generating engine. After that when a "good" idea comes up all the reps need to do is step on the accelerator a bit (tweak the rate). We'll catch up to Vermont in no time.

And if the Vermont example isn't good enough for you almost every state has gone through a similar process and most have income, sales, AND property taxes. Just as it is difficult to control spending it is equally as hard to control tax growth. And the states claim that they STILL don't have enough money. Imagine that.

No thanks.

The Big Kahuna · 11-26-2007, 06:15 PM

Welcome to the Democratic Republic of New Hamshire! Over spending, kick backs and every and all taxes required! NICE!

Irish mist · 11-26-2007, 08:28 PM

It's the same old same old from Fats......jeffk just explained what happens when you create a new tax stream. Nothing changes, spending just goes up even higher. Fatlazyless has an agenda that has little to do with the facts.
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secondcurve · 11-26-2007, 08:41 PM

Can we put the tax complaining to bed for a bit? NH has one of the lowest tax burdens in the country. Further, the USA is the greatest country in the world. What more could you want. Be happy for what you have.

Irish mist · 11-26-2007, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Can we put the tax complaining to bed for a bit? NH has one of the lowest tax burdens in the country. Further, the USA is the greatest country in the world. What more could you want. Be happy for what you have.

I agree with this......we just went through a thread like this several months ago.
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Portable vaporizer

fatlazyless · 11-27-2007, 06:10 AM

Sure, we just went through a thread like this........and NH homeowners just got hit with another semi annual prop tax bill,,,,,every six months,,,,,it goes on forever. One can look forward to paying down a 30 year mortgage until it's all paid off, However, the same is not true for the prop tax bill.

Here in New Hampshire, by the time one gets all done with your mortgage payments, your prop tax payments have grown as big as a mortgage payment. Only the prop tax payent never ends and just keep on getting bigger.

This increase in local spending has got to be linked to the increase in local property assessments. All the big spending Bob Flanders selectmen in NH see the increasing assessments and think....hmmmmmm...... well....how about that.....just maybe Meredith will be able to build that new police station, community center, fire station, hook & ladder truck, million dollar athletic field.....all good projects....just cost a lot of money.

NH needs another source besides the prop tax! It is the one and only state with no sales-no income tax. Even Alaska, "where property taxes are relatively low"(Wikipedia) which also has no sales-no income, does in fact have the option of creating a local town/county sales tax and 89 Alaskan towns use that local sales tax for local projects.. Plus while, Alaska has BIG OIL generated tax revenue, NH has the Old Man of the Mountain........whoops......just like the Old Man, the NH tax system is due for a crash.

Skip · 11-27-2007, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish mist

It's the same old same old from Fats......jeffk just explained what happens when you create a new tax stream. Nothing changes, spending just goes up even higher. Fatlazyless has an agenda that has little to do with the facts.

.....Ah, poor ol' FLL.

Classic case of the "the only fair tax is the tax the other guy pays" syndrome!

tis · 11-27-2007, 07:20 AM

You are so right, Skip. The only person who doesn't hate taxes is someone who doesn't pay much. They are ok with them until THEY have to pay them.

nj2nh · 11-27-2007, 08:26 AM

I would love to live in NH. The property taxes there seem so much more manageable than here in beautiful NJ where we, too, fund our schools exclusively through property taxes. Taxes for my modest 4 bedroom home are around $13K! Plus, we have a 7% sales tax (just went up a while ago) and income tax. Geez! But, we all get by since we know that is the price to pay for living where we do.

Our town is about to put a referendum to the voters for capital improvements for our schools. Because of a new law which limits school budget increases to some ridiculously miniscule amount, capital improvements no longer "fit" in the regular school budgets - this includes roof repairs, heating controls - generally basic stuff. As a result, things have gotten pretty bad in the schools. Add to this the nearly 100% increase in the school population over the last six years (yup, only six years) and you have a mess. The referendum is for nearly $45 million (yes, million). We have 4 tiny elementary schools and a combined MS/HS.

And this is in a town where the kids walk to school because it is so small that no one lives more than two miles from the building. The whole town would fit into Alton probably five or six times not including the water!

So, things are a mess all over and I can't wait until 2014 when my youngest graduates from HS and we can establish residency in NH and send the boys to UNH!!!!

Argie's Wife · 11-27-2007, 08:46 AM

I don't believe that a state income tax is the answer and agree with the points that all of the previous posters mentioned. Additionally, you have to create another department that will collect, monitor, report and manage it all. We don't need more red-tape or more taxes.

I'd rather see meal taxes go up or taxes on alcohol - things you don't have to have to survive but that are more "luxury" items.

However, something is going to have to happen because there's serious problems with the NH State Retirement system - they're not properly funded and those who are paying into the system are getting worried if they're going to have anything to retire on... it shouldn't be like that. Something has to happen....

vrrooom · 11-27-2007, 09:59 AM

I have had a house in Gilford for over 25 years. When I first moved here, it was from NY state and it was like getting a 20% raise, with not paying sales tax or income tax. Today we are faced with a local government that is out of control on spending, we in tiny Gilford have a School Adminstration who is paid much more than the ones in Manchester with 10X the student population as Gilford. We also have a Libriarian who is the highest paid in the entire state, and we could go on and on. In the days before SB2 the employees of Gilford dominated the town meetings, and took good wonderful care of themselves. At least with SB2 my voice and others is heard, which is not true at town meetings where people expressing opposition to spending were often jeered and shouted down. Those of you who are new to the region will notice how hard employees of town governments fight against SB2 ,Budget Committees and tax caps.

"That Government which governs least governs best!"

Weirs guy · 11-27-2007, 12:28 PM

TAX.
CAP.

Until your town has one, the Democrats will spend, spend spend. But even with one we must watch what they are up to.

mcdude · 11-27-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

... the Democrats will spend, spend spend....

of course, the Republicans NEVER spend, right Weirs Guy?

?

ghfromaltonbay · 11-27-2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nj2nh

I would love to live in NH. The property taxes there seem so much more manageable than here in beautiful NJ where we, too, fund our schools exclusively through property taxes. Taxes for my modest 4 bedroom home are around $13K! Plus, we have a 7% sales tax (just went up a while ago) and income tax. Geez! But, we all get by since we know that is the price to pay for living where we do.

So, things are a mess all over and I can't wait until 2014 when my youngest graduates from HS and we can establish residency in NH and send the boys to UNH!!!!

Sounds like a good plan, nj2nh. I'll be right behind you heading north. Don't fall for the line that an income tax will ease property taxes. As I've stated in earlier threads, NJ has the highest property taxes in the US, plus a now 7% sales tax (started at 3%), plus a graduated income tax -- yes even on retirees' income (PA doesn't tax retirement income). We also have casinos in Atlantic City which was supposed to alleviate the need for higher property taxes as the proceeds from gambling and the state lottery were supposed to help education. Yeah right! My property taxes have risen 8-9% each of the past 5 years. I'm now paying $6500 for a 47x100 lot with a small 3 bedroom cape. Someone I know with a 5 bedroom lakefront home in Alton Bay with boathouse and a heck of a bigger lot paid less than $7000 in taxes last year and didn't have income or sales tax to worry about. So, who's getting taken to the cleaners? All higher taxes equate to is higher spending.

JPC · 11-27-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

TAX.
CAP.

Until your town has one, the Democrats will spend, spend spend. But even with one we must watch what they are up to.

I didn't know that we elected School Board members or Selectmen by party affiliation.

Irish mist · 11-27-2007, 03:43 PM

One thing we know, for a fact, is that adding a sales or income tax in any state has NEVER lowered the overall tax burden over time, NEVER ! It all comes back to spending. Control the spending. Just read the posts from the NJ residents here to see what adding new tax streams has done for that state. Connecticut is another case. They added an income tax in the 90s with the promise of lowering the overall tax burden......never happened.

If someone could show me one state where new tax streams, once opened up, lower the overall tax burden, then I'll listen. Since it has never happened anywhere I think it's a waste of time to debate this issue with people who have an agenda.

If people just want to shift the property tax burden off of their backs.......fine, just say so. But let's not pretend it's going to solve the overall tax issue in NH, or bring taxes down.
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Bmw X

kjbathe · 11-27-2007, 04:55 PM

Thank you to JeffK and IrishMist for posting what I was thinking and what everyone needed to hear. We can all complain about property taxes in NH and how every other state does it differently. But every other state that has tried the experiment of tax-burden-reduction through new tax redistribution has failed to accomplish either. The examples are numerous. Connecticut has been noted here. Vermont and Maine continue to battle over who has the highest tax burden in the country. Our neighbor to the south... Why do folks continue to want to follow those same failed models?

Control the spending and you control your taxes. Period.

But the point I think that most people may miss is this: FatLazyLess got a bill and has to write a check. It's a big bill and he took notice. What would our taxes look like if we got a semi-annual bill for all of them instead of paying a dollar here and dollar there? If we had to open that piece of mail and see that bill and write the check for the sales tax you pay in drips and drabs all year. What would our Federal taxes look like if we paid that bill once every year? And I'm not talking about the big bill we complain about having to pay every April because we didn't pay enough in taxes... I'm talking about writing a check once a year to cover ALL the federal deductions that were quietly hijacked from your paycheck all year? The same model FatLazyLess endorses.

If we got a bill and had to a cut a check for every tax we paid, then folks would start to get it.

Anyone still think this is anything but a spending problem?

phoenix · 11-27-2007, 05:12 PM

big problem will come next year when the legislature decides how to deal with the education issue that will require funding above what is currently raised

Irish mist · 11-27-2007, 05:32 PM

Two of the main groups of people that want a tax shift here are waterfront property owners, and out of state folks who own vacation property. I understand that they feel they are being treated in an unfair manner with the current NH tax system. But I would suggest that over 90% of the residents of NH like the tax system as it is, and do good under it.

NH belongs to the residents who live here, and make this their home.....and if you live & work here, then the NH tax system works pretty well.
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Buy glass bongs

phoenix · 11-27-2007, 07:32 PM

i think back to Skip's comment " the only fair tax is one that the other guy pays". i am one of those waterfront out of state vacation owners ( live here six months)and i don't mind the current system because it is still based on market value. now will be interesting as property values decline they will decline more for waterfront which will shift more of the burden to non waterfront.

fatlazyless · 11-27-2007, 09:34 PM

Gee whiz...I don't know...but it's just my hunch....that pretty soon we will be hearing the LAGGING word quite a bit. As in,,,"oh, it's a LAGGING indicator," and 'of course, the assessed value will LAG the market value for at least a year, or more, or more, or more."

So, how come the assessed value as printed on my property tax bill is a lot higher than what the market is saying? "Because it is a LAGGING indicator." Got that....the assessed value will LAG the market value for....oh....maybe one....two....or threeeee years according to the good people down at the assessor's dept.

So, when you soon hear and see the LAG word pop up in assessed value realty-speak, you'll know it is just a variation of the lag screw as in hardware store lag screw....but with a different twist.

Flylady · 11-27-2007, 11:25 PM

[QUOTE=fatlazyless]Gee whiz...I don't know...but it's just my hunch....that pretty soon we will be hearing the LAGGING word quite a bit. As in,,,"oh, it's a LAGGING indicator," and 'of course, the assessed value will LAG the market value for at least a year, or more, or more, or more."

I too am only a six month resident and spoke to the assessor as to the "assessed values". I got a very lame response as to the purchase price verses the assessed vlaue. I believe the largest issue facing every NH town leadership that relays heavily on lakefront assessed values is that the are going to have to face the music about the overly valued properties and figure out how to recognize the correct values AND reduce spending. People on the "public payrolls and the largest benifactors of the last 5 year property boom and increased revenues will fight the hardest against any spending reductions, but in the end who elects the town respresentatives? If they do not follow the wishes of those that elected them then they should not get a second chance (term).

jeffk · 11-27-2007, 11:53 PM

My assessed value and my taxes declined from last year. Not by much, but since the bill usually goes up at least 7 % I figure a slight dollar drop actually equates to a real drop of the 7% increase that I didn't have to pay.

I just gotta ask, when the lake property values shot UP 20% like they did a few years ago did anyone run to their town and offer to pay their new higher fair share of the property tax?

It probably took a year or two for the assessments to catch up with the sales values. I'll bet no one complained about the LAG then.

LIforrelaxin · 11-28-2007, 01:18 AM

Taxes are never going to be fair. They are always going to be a pain in the rear. It doesn't matter how they get it the gov't is always going to get enought money to do what they want. So the choices are simple. The people of NH either need to take a more active role in there govt. and let represntatives know how they feel about spending etc. And then decided whether or not the current tax system is the best way to meet the needs.

Being a resident of Vermont for a while. Sure they got all types of tax put into place. But I don't see people having to give up dream homes because they can't pay property taxes. Vermont also has many things in the tax stadgy to help people. out, so that they can try and better themselve. I am not saying that vermont is a good model. What I am saying is that NH needs to wiegh its options, the people need to get involved, something will change, and when it does you can either be satisfied that you help mold the change by getting involved, or sit by the sidelines and realize you need to stay quiet because you didn't stand up....

ITD · 11-28-2007, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffk

My assessed value and my taxes declined from last year. Not by much, but since the bill usually goes up at least 7 % I figure a slight dollar drop actually equates to a real drop of the 7% increase that I didn't have to pay.

I just gotta ask, when the lake property values shot UP 20% like they did a few years ago did anyone run to their town and offer to pay their new higher fair share of the property tax?

It probably took a year or two for the assessments to catch up with the sales values. I'll bet no one complained about the LAG then.

I seriously doubt they complained either, in fact some people's lake property value lagged for 20 or 30 years and they said nothing. Perhaps if the towns went after these laggards retroactively it would lower the rest of us sap's taxes for a year or two while they caught up.

hockeypuck · 11-28-2007, 12:33 PM

Stop crying. You don't pay an outrageous amount of taxes. Everyone, everywhere pays taxes and most don't like it. Unfortunately, people loose their homes to taxes all over the country. At least you live in the best region of the best state in the best country in the world. Bite the bullet and enjoy what you have.

Weirs guy · 11-28-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcdude

of course, the Republicans NEVER spend, right Weirs Guy?

?

OK, OK, an unfair poke by me mcd. I should have changed "democrat" to "financially liberal politicians".

Sammy · 11-28-2007, 01:25 PM

The town of Alton reduced the value of my property by $20,000 and increased the tax rate. Now my taxes are $1,000 higher than last year. How's that for a plan...

The Big Kahuna · 11-28-2007, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeypuck

Stop crying. You don't pay an outrageous amount of taxes. Everyone, everywhere pays taxes and most don't like it. Unfortunately, people loose their homes to taxes all over the country. At least you live in the best region of the best state in the best country in the world. Bite the bullet and enjoy what you have.

I think the rate the towns have raised taxes are to quick. My property values have gone down the past two years, but my taxes went up, what is up with that?

Sunbeam lodge · 11-28-2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffk

My assessed value and my taxes declined from last year. Not by much, but since the bill usually goes up at least 7 % I figure a slight dollar drop actually equates to a real drop of the 7% increase that I didn't have to pay.

I just gotta ask, when the lake property values shot UP 20% like they did a few years ago did anyone run to their town and offer to pay their new higher fair share of the property tax?

It probably took a year or two for the assessments to catch up with the sales values. I'll bet no one complained about the LAG then.

I didn't have to run to the assessors office. They jumped on the bandwagon very quickly'
Starting in 1996 Tax $7953, up 14% from 1995
1999 tax $9251, up 14% from 1998, 2000 tax $13057 up 41% from 1999,
2002 tax $14254 up 9.2% from 2001, 2003 $16964 up 18.9%
Overall Taxes up 127% for exactly the same house I built when I retired.
Completely wiped out my social security. Only live here 6 months, no children in schools. But my real problem is the way this country has lost any form of leadership and the candidates still mouth meaningless words. They do not have any plan to change the degradation of the currency, education, medical, immigration policies or deficit spending. Oh, by the way just received my oil bill, yup you guessed it up 68% from the beginning of the year. Fortunately we continue to have a low inflation rate.
system, immigration policy or deficts caused by this administration.

hockeypuck · 11-28-2007, 03:20 PM

Sunbeam, we all feel the pain. Let me see if I have this right. The dollar is worth less, my house is worth less, taxes are going up, stock market is going down, energy cost are going up because dollar is worth less, food prices are going up partrially because of energy cost and use of corn for ethanol. I think there is inflation in the things we all need; food, energy and shelter. A good friend of mine is in the export business and says that it is difficult to find space on any boat of plane for cargo going out of the US to overseas. Everything in the USA is on sale at a discount to those overseas. I don't know if that is a good thing or not. See what happens when the dust settles.

ITD · 11-28-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeypuck

Sunbeam, we all feel the pain. Let me see if I have this right. The dollar is worth less, my house is worth less, taxes are going up, stock market is going down, energy cost are going up because dollar is worth less, food prices are going up partrially because of energy cost and use of corn for ethanol. I think there is inflation in the things we all need; food, energy and shelter. A good friend of mine is in the export business and says that it is difficult to find space on any boat of plane for cargo going out of the US to overseas. Everything in the USA is on sale at a discount to those overseas. I don't know if that is a good thing or not. See what happens when the dust settles.

When the dust settles we're going to find out that the wholesale outsourcing that has happened was only a good idea for Jack Welch and his ilk who profited handsomely at the expense of our long term security. Lake Winnipesaukee (added so that somehow this topic gets back on track.)

PS Lots of goods leaving the US to other markets is a good thing.

Silver Duck · 11-28-2007, 07:44 PM

Can anyone tell me how the state government raises money for operating expenses?

Somehow it seems unlikely to me that the few revenue sources that I'm aware of (i.e., taxes on tobacco, gasoline, hotel room rental, meals, and maybe booze) would be enough to take care of the state's revenue needs.

Silver Duck

Irish mist · 11-28-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

Can anyone tell me how the state government raises money for operating expenses?

Somehow it seems unlikely to me that the few revenue sources that I'm aware of (i.e., taxes on tobacco, gasoline, hotel room rental, meals, and maybe booze) would be enough to take care of the state's revenue needs.

Silver Duck

That's the beauty of NH state government. It struggles just to make ends meet. That keeps it weak, and distracted. Without a lot of tax streams it stays small, and lacks the power to really put the screws to the public like Massachusetts can with all of its resources to tax.
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S1

wifi · 11-28-2007, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish mist

That's the beauty of NH state government. It struggles just to make ends meet. That keeps it weak, and distracted. Without a lot of tax streams it stays small, and lacks the power to really put the screws to the public like Massachusetts can with all of its resources to tax.

Bravo IM

Argie's Wife · 11-28-2007, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

Can anyone tell me how the state government raises money for operating expenses?

Somehow it seems unlikely to me that the few revenue sources that I'm aware of (i.e., taxes on tobacco, gasoline, hotel room rental, meals, and maybe booze) would be enough to take care of the state's revenue needs.

Silver Duck

Since no one has responded to your question, I'll tell you that the State of NH raises revenue through fees, certifications, registrations, and the lottery. Revenues may come from the State Liquor Stores, vehicle registrations, dog licenses, scratch tickets, fishing and/or hunting licenses, toll booths, tax on prepared foods (but not groceries), hotel rooms... I'm sure there's some I've missed but these are some of it...

jeffk · 11-29-2007, 12:09 AM

I pulled this off the state website a while ago.

2005 Revenue
Interest & Dividends Tax 66,929,900
Estate & Legacy Taxes 11,909,724
Business Profits Tax 209,747,332
Business Enterprise Tax 236,162,258
Communications Svs Tax 69,557,473
Electricity Consumption Tax 6,229,864
Meals & Rentals Tax 192,196,642
Tobacco Tax 99,307,075
Real Estate Transfer Tax 160,430,527
Utility Property Tax 20,087,776
Excess State Ed Prop Tax 20,934,231
Other (includes RR) 871,900
TOTAL 1,094,364,703

Also consider that NH reps are essentially not paid, a minor stipend ($100) and expense reimbursements only. That in itself keeps costs down a bit. There are 400 in the House and 24 in the Senate. To pay them each 50K (similar to Mass) would cost over $21 million a year.

kjbathe · 11-29-2007, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Kahuna

I think the rate the towns have raised taxes are to quick. My property values have gone down the past two years, but my taxes went up, what is up with that?

What is up with that is SPENDING. If spending is flat, your property value could have doubled and you'd still pay the same amount in taxes. In the simplest terms, the rate gets set so that when multiplied by the assessed values the town ends up with the required budget.

Control the spending, and you control your taxes.

jeffk · 11-29-2007, 09:59 AM

I agree the first line of defense against paying higher taxes is controlling spending.

However, you have to understand how property taxes work. If your property value drops 4% and everyone else's property value drops 7%, congratulations you win higher taxes as "compared to everyone else". This can often be the case in a vacation area where expensive second home prices may be hit harder than smaller residential home prices. This effectively shifts some of the tax burden to the residential homes which now, comparatively, are worth more. The tax follows the comparative value. Even if spending is absolutely flat

the amount of tax paid by any one individual can change based on the comparitive value of their property.

The Big Kahuna · 11-29-2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjbathe

What is up with that is SPENDING. If spending is flat, your property value could have doubled and you'd still pay the same amount in taxes. In the simplest terms, the rate gets set so that when multiplied by the assessed values the town ends up with the required budget.

Control the spending, and you control your taxes.

Now that we are a new Republic, I don't see that happening, spending will do nothing but increase.

Rattlesnake Guy · 11-30-2007, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcdude

of course, the Republicans NEVER spend, right Weirs Guy?

?

Mcdude,
Sadly you are absolutely correct. Electing a Republican gives little increase in the likelihood that they won't also find lots of excellent reasons to take our money and give it to other people.

What are the chances that the guy, who I have a sign for in my front yard, will keep any of the promises made during the Republican primary? If only.......

Argie's Wife · 11-30-2007, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjbathe

What is up with that is SPENDING. If spending is flat, your property value could have doubled and you'd still pay the same amount in taxes. In the simplest terms, the rate gets set so that when multiplied by the assessed values the town ends up with the required budget.

Control the spending, and you control your taxes.

Well said.

And as someone who sits through the review of my town's budget, I will say that if you want to have a personal impact on the spending in your town, then you should attend the budget committee meetings. There's always room for public input at any meeting and it could be a great opportunity for you to voice your concerns about spending. It's also a great way to see how the budget is justified - or NOT!

Orion · 12-01-2007, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radar4401

I recently renovated my house, and it would have cost me much more if there were a sales tax. Also, once they get a sales tax, it's too easy to raise it. My 2 cents worth.

um, you're missing a key point Radar. You may have escaped a one-time sales tax on the materials, but on your next property assessment, your property value will be assessed higher from the renovation, and you will pay more EVERY year from now on.

Rattlesnake Guy · 12-01-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orion

um, you're missing a key point Radar. You may have escaped a one-time sales tax on the materials, but on your next property assessment, your property value will be assessed higher from the renovation, and you will pay more EVERY year from now on.

um, I would much rather make the town wait 20 years to collect the tax than give it to them today and then also give it to them again over the next 20 + years.

ApS · 12-02-2007, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunbeam lodge

"...Taxes up 127% for exactly the same house I built when I retired. Completely wiped out my social security..."

Boomers must fund the "Live Free or Die" state's mandatory property taxes with funds collected from mandatory Social Security accounts.

idigtractors · 12-02-2007, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

Well said.

And as someone who sits through the review of my town's budget, I will say that if you want to have a personal impact on the spending in your town, then you should attend the budget committee meetings. There's always room for public input at any meeting and it could be a great opportunity for you to voice your concerns about spending. It's also a great way to see how the budget is justified - or NOT!

I think the biggest thing is the voting on the articles that appear for the town to vote on. I can almost guarantee that the tax rate would go down if seasonal people were able to vote.

Argie's Wife · 12-02-2007, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idigtractors

I think the biggest thing is the voting on the articles that appear for the town to vote on. I can almost guarantee that the tax rate would go down if seasonal people were able to vote.

Perhaps... but the problem with the warrant articles is that they're generally worded in a way that's so ambiguous that people have trouble comprehending what they're REALLY for. And there's generally too darn many of them - we had over 40 last year here in Alton and always have a bunch. Some have a $0 fiscal impact but most have a price tag attached. By attending the deliberative sessions, it's much easier to understand what you're voting for. Those deliberative sessions are televised but only on the local cable access. The warrant articles are in the papers, but there's also petition warrant articles that are presented at the deliberative sessions - and all the justification for them. (By the way, Alton is SB2 and I'm writing this from that experience - might be a bit different for your town.)

In short, I would welcome seasonal residents' vote - if they were INFORMED voters. I question how they would really be able to make a good, informed decision if they weren't as tuned-in to the local happenings like you are...

I don't know how that would happen - perhaps that fodder for another thread, eh?

This'nThat · 12-14-2007, 10:59 AM

Seems to me one way of getting lower property taxes in Alton is to build those cell towers. The Town is already on record that the towers will be an eyesore that affects our "View". And, since our property taxes now include a "View" tax, all of our property assessments should drop -- dramatically -- if the cell towers are built. Not only do we get lower taxes, as a result -- we also get cell service for the first time.

A win-win!

11-26-2007, 08:22 AM	#1
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,638 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 298 Thanked 984 Times in 717 Posts	property tax oblivion Now that Meredith has recently sent out its' latest semi-annual property tax bill I hope that everyone has been able to recover from the shock. It's been a while since this topic was discussed so here's to starting a new thread. Like the saying goes, death and taxes are two things you can always count on. Some often heard comment on NH prop taxes are that: 'We must cut the spending', or, 'We have no sales or income tax thanks to our property tax' Honestly, I just cannot ever see the spending being cut. It just will not happen . Meredith uses it's first tuesday night in March, annual town meeting for its' time to vote and just about every big item gets passed. Recently, a new police station, new community center, and new athletic field all were passed on their first vote. Over in Gilford, which uses an SB2 vote, in that the vote can be mailed in and gets a larger turn-out, items like a police station have been voted down. The property tax used to be a pretty good system because the tax was fairly low. With the big run-up in property values coupled wih the increase in local spending, the property tax is no longer a low priced tax. So, if you feel like I do, then you want to 'Ax the Property Tax' and go with an income tax. Ouch, did I really say that(?). ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' Maybe voters in Moultonboro can see the light and decide to dismiss their State Rep Betsey 'no comment' Patten, who also chairs the State Board of Assessors. She pretty much ignored a petition signed by 6000 north country residents recently who are very unhappy with their 'view tax', and then dissed them at a public meeting by simply refusing to comment. Communication, pro or con, is a big part of being a politician, and for her to simply refuse to comment was not appreciated. So, maybe it's time for Moultonboro voters to think twice before again voting for their state rep, Betsey 'no comment' Patten.

11-26-2007, 12:25 PM	#2
Lakegeezer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 1,663 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 349 Thanked 630 Times in 282 Posts	Someday down the road Putting in an income tax will not likely reduce the property tax for long if at all, so why bother. Instead, an income tax will drive high talent - high paying jobs from NH. The state does not need the brain drain. Now, ask me in a few years when I retire from the workplace and still have property. My tune may change to; "let the working man pay more". For now, I don't think any working person should be fooled into thinking an income tax will reduce their tax bill. It will just fuel the tax and spenders money wasting machine. Local control may not be perfect, but its a lot easier than trying to control the state government. __________________ -lg

11-26-2007, 01:55 PM	#3
AC2717 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Maynard, MA & Paugus Bay Posts: 2,532 Thanks: 749 Thanked 346 Times in 259 Posts	Laconia Hello All, I was wondering if anyone could tell me when I needed to file an appeal by for the city of Laconia?

11-26-2007, 02:47 PM	#4
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	AMEN LG.Less is more..,,I think?Well,more or Les. __________________ SIKSUKR

11-26-2007, 03:13 PM	#5
radar4401 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 58 Thanks: 2 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	Property Tax Oblivion I'd like to reply. While I'm not a native, my wife is and we retired here specifically because NH didn't have a sales tax or income tax. I was working in a state with a 7 3/4% sales tax and it really hurts, especially lower income people. I gladly pay the high property tax as it is more visible to the voters. With sales taxes, it comes a little at a time and isn't as noticeable. I recently renovated my house, and it would have cost me much more if there were a sales tax. Also, once they get a sales tax, it's too easy to raise it. My 2 cents worth.

11-26-2007, 03:13 PM	#6
hilltopper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Meredith Posts: 720 Thanks: 25 Thanked 105 Times in 66 Posts	I'm new to Meredith and noticed the increase (for me about 400 bucks more then the last 6 month bill). Do you know what the tax rate increase was? Also (and again, I'm new to the town as of May) I thought the Meredith police station was pretty damn new looking but you're saying they voted to build another? Why?

11-26-2007, 04:55 PM	#7
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,896 Thanks: 469 Thanked 682 Times in 380 Posts	Think about it Less, you're asking to lower taxes by raising taxes (adding a new tax.). Stopping spending is not impossible, all it takes is a catalyst, and one thing I will give you is that you know how to whip things up. I hope with your passion, that you show up at town meetings and elections for that matter and speak your mind.

11-26-2007, 05:06 PM	#8
Irish mist Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 682 Thanks: 124 Thanked 85 Times in 49 Posts	I feel your pain Hilltopper.......many of the local towns in the area have gone on building booms for new schools & fire stations & police stations & DPW buildings & lol, you get the picture. There was a time up here when the town officals were more frugal, and made due with what they had. The old Meredith station is indeed not that old. Laconia, on the other hand really did need a new police station. Last edited by Irish mist; 02-27-2011 at 10:02 PM.

11-26-2007, 06:15 PM	#10
The Big Kahuna Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Gilford Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	New State of the State Welcome to the Democratic Republic of New Hamshire! Over spending, kick backs and every and all taxes required! NICE!

11-26-2007, 08:28 PM	#11
Irish mist Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 682 Thanks: 124 Thanked 85 Times in 49 Posts	It's the same old same old from Fats......jeffk just explained what happens when you create a new tax stream. Nothing changes, spending just goes up even higher. Fatlazyless has an agenda that has little to do with the facts. ________ Extreme Vaporizer Review Last edited by Irish mist; 02-27-2011 at 10:02 PM.

11-26-2007, 08:41 PM	#12
secondcurve Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,102 Thanks: 1,299 Thanked 558 Times in 287 Posts	Can we put the tax complaining to bed for a bit? NH has one of the lowest tax burdens in the country. Further, the USA is the greatest country in the world. What more could you want. Be happy for what you have.

11-27-2007, 06:10 AM	#14
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,638 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 298 Thanked 984 Times in 717 Posts	Sure, we just went through a thread like this........and NH homeowners just got hit with another semi annual prop tax bill,,,,,every six months,,,,,it goes on forever. One can look forward to paying down a 30 year mortgage until it's all paid off, However, the same is not true for the prop tax bill. Here in New Hampshire, by the time one gets all done with your mortgage payments, your prop tax payments have grown as big as a mortgage payment. Only the prop tax payent never ends and just keep on getting bigger. This increase in local spending has got to be linked to the increase in local property assessments. All the big spending Bob Flanders selectmen in NH see the increasing assessments and think....hmmmmmm...... well....how about that.....just maybe Meredith will be able to build that new police station, community center, fire station, hook & ladder truck, million dollar athletic field.....all good projects....just cost a lot of money. NH needs another source besides the prop tax! It is the one and only state with no sales-no income tax. Even Alaska, "where property taxes are relatively low"(Wikipedia) which also has no sales-no income, does in fact have the option of creating a local town/county sales tax and 89 Alaskan towns use that local sales tax for local projects.. Plus while, Alaska has BIG OIL generated tax revenue, NH has the Old Man of the Mountain........whoops......just like the Old Man, the NH tax system is due for a crash. Last edited by fatlazyless; 11-27-2007 at 07:03 AM.

11-27-2007, 07:20 AM	#16
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,566 Thanks: 742 Thanked 1,426 Times in 988 Posts	You are so right, Skip. The only person who doesn't hate taxes is someone who doesn't pay much. They are ok with them until THEY have to pay them.

11-27-2007, 08:26 AM	#17
nj2nh Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 523 Thanks: 62 Thanked 44 Times in 24 Posts	I would love to live in NH. The property taxes there seem so much more manageable than here in beautiful NJ where we, too, fund our schools exclusively through property taxes. Taxes for my modest 4 bedroom home are around $13K! Plus, we have a 7% sales tax (just went up a while ago) and income tax. Geez! But, we all get by since we know that is the price to pay for living where we do. Our town is about to put a referendum to the voters for capital improvements for our schools. Because of a new law which limits school budget increases to some ridiculously miniscule amount, capital improvements no longer "fit" in the regular school budgets - this includes roof repairs, heating controls - generally basic stuff. As a result, things have gotten pretty bad in the schools. Add to this the nearly 100% increase in the school population over the last six years (yup, only six years) and you have a mess. The referendum is for nearly $45 million (yes, million). We have 4 tiny elementary schools and a combined MS/HS. And this is in a town where the kids walk to school because it is so small that no one lives more than two miles from the building. The whole town would fit into Alton probably five or six times not including the water! So, things are a mess all over and I can't wait until 2014 when my youngest graduates from HS and we can establish residency in NH and send the boys to UNH!!!! __________________

11-27-2007, 08:46 AM	#18
Argie's Wife Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Alton Posts: 1,908 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 533 Thanked 579 Times in 260 Posts	I don't believe that a state income tax is the answer and agree with the points that all of the previous posters mentioned. Additionally, you have to create another department that will collect, monitor, report and manage it all. We don't need more red-tape or more taxes. I'd rather see meal taxes go up or taxes on alcohol - things you don't have to have to survive but that are more "luxury" items. However, something is going to have to happen because there's serious problems with the NH State Retirement system - they're not properly funded and those who are paying into the system are getting worried if they're going to have anything to retire on... it shouldn't be like that. Something has to happen....

11-27-2007, 09:59 AM	#19
vrrooom Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Gilford Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just a few sticks on the tax bonfire. I have had a house in Gilford for over 25 years. When I first moved here, it was from NY state and it was like getting a 20% raise, with not paying sales tax or income tax. Today we are faced with a local government that is out of control on spending, we in tiny Gilford have a School Adminstration who is paid much more than the ones in Manchester with 10X the student population as Gilford. We also have a Libriarian who is the highest paid in the entire state, and we could go on and on. In the days before SB2 the employees of Gilford dominated the town meetings, and took good wonderful care of themselves. At least with SB2 my voice and others is heard, which is not true at town meetings where people expressing opposition to spending were often jeered and shouted down. Those of you who are new to the region will notice how hard employees of town governments fight against SB2 ,Budget Committees and tax caps. "That Government which governs least governs best!"

11-27-2007, 12:28 PM	#20
Weirs guy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Weirs Beach, NH Posts: 1,067 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	TAX. CAP. Until your town has one, the Democrats will spend, spend spend. But even with one we must watch what they are up to. __________________ Is it bikeweek yet? Now?

11-27-2007, 03:43 PM	#24
Irish mist Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 682 Thanks: 124 Thanked 85 Times in 49 Posts	One thing we know, for a fact, is that adding a sales or income tax in any state has NEVER lowered the overall tax burden over time, NEVER ! It all comes back to spending. Control the spending. Just read the posts from the NJ residents here to see what adding new tax streams has done for that state. Connecticut is another case. They added an income tax in the 90s with the promise of lowering the overall tax burden......never happened. If someone could show me one state where new tax streams, once opened up, lower the overall tax burden, then I'll listen. Since it has never happened anywhere I think it's a waste of time to debate this issue with people who have an agenda. If people just want to shift the property tax burden off of their backs.......fine, just say so. But let's not pretend it's going to solve the overall tax issue in NH, or bring taxes down. ________ Bmw X Last edited by Irish mist; 02-27-2011 at 10:03 PM.

11-27-2007, 04:55 PM	#25
kjbathe Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 281 Thanks: 3 Thanked 21 Times in 11 Posts	Some folks never learn... Thank you to JeffK and IrishMist for posting what I was thinking and what everyone needed to hear. We can all complain about property taxes in NH and how every other state does it differently. But every other state that has tried the experiment of tax-burden-reduction through new tax redistribution has failed to accomplish either. The examples are numerous. Connecticut has been noted here. Vermont and Maine continue to battle over who has the highest tax burden in the country. Our neighbor to the south... Why do folks continue to want to follow those same failed models? Control the spending and you control your taxes. Period. But the point I think that most people may miss is this: FatLazyLess got a bill and has to write a check. It's a big bill and he took notice. What would our taxes look like if we got a semi-annual bill for all of them instead of paying a dollar here and dollar there? If we had to open that piece of mail and see that bill and write the check for the sales tax you pay in drips and drabs all year. What would our Federal taxes look like if we paid that bill once every year? And I'm not talking about the big bill we complain about having to pay every April because we didn't pay enough in taxes... I'm talking about writing a check once a year to cover ALL the federal deductions that were quietly hijacked from your paycheck all year? The same model FatLazyLess endorses. If we got a bill and had to a cut a check for every tax we paid, then folks would start to get it. Anyone still think this is anything but a spending problem?

11-27-2007, 05:12 PM	#26
phoenix Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: phoenix and moultonboro Posts: 1,528 Thanks: 59 Thanked 269 Times in 189 Posts	big problem will come next year when the legislature decides how to deal with the education issue that will require funding above what is currently raised __________________ it's tough to make predictions specially about the future

11-27-2007, 05:32 PM	#27
Irish mist Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 682 Thanks: 124 Thanked 85 Times in 49 Posts	Two of the main groups of people that want a tax shift here are waterfront property owners, and out of state folks who own vacation property. I understand that they feel they are being treated in an unfair manner with the current NH tax system. But I would suggest that over 90% of the residents of NH like the tax system as it is, and do good under it. NH belongs to the residents who live here, and make this their home.....and if you live & work here, then the NH tax system works pretty well. ________ Buy glass bongs Last edited by Irish mist; 02-27-2011 at 10:03 PM.

11-27-2007, 07:32 PM	#28
phoenix Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: phoenix and moultonboro Posts: 1,528 Thanks: 59 Thanked 269 Times in 189 Posts	i think back to Skip's comment " the only fair tax is one that the other guy pays". i am one of those waterfront out of state vacation owners ( live here six months)and i don't mind the current system because it is still based on market value. now will be interesting as property values decline they will decline more for waterfront which will shift more of the burden to non waterfront. __________________ it's tough to make predictions specially about the future

11-27-2007, 09:34 PM	#29
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,638 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 298 Thanked 984 Times in 717 Posts	...lag, lagging, lagged, laggest Gee whiz...I don't know...but it's just my hunch....that pretty soon we will be hearing the LAGGING word quite a bit. As in,,,"oh, it's a LAGGING indicator," and 'of course, the assessed value will LAG the market value for at least a year, or more, or more, or more." So, how come the assessed value as printed on my property tax bill is a lot higher than what the market is saying? "Because it is a LAGGING indicator." Got that....the assessed value will LAG the market value for....oh....maybe one....two....or threeeee years according to the good people down at the assessor's dept. So, when you soon hear and see the LAG word pop up in assessed value realty-speak, you'll know it is just a variation of the lag screw as in hardware store lag screw....but with a different twist.

11-27-2007, 11:25 PM	#30
Flylady Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: So. California & Lakes Region Posts: 256 Thanks: 225 Thanked 106 Times in 61 Posts	Lagging..... [QUOTE=fatlazyless]Gee whiz...I don't know...but it's just my hunch....that pretty soon we will be hearing the LAGGING word quite a bit. As in,,,"oh, it's a LAGGING indicator," and 'of course, the assessed value will LAG the market value for at least a year, or more, or more, or more." I too am only a six month resident and spoke to the assessor as to the "assessed values". I got a very lame response as to the purchase price verses the assessed vlaue. I believe the largest issue facing every NH town leadership that relays heavily on lakefront assessed values is that the are going to have to face the music about the overly valued properties and figure out how to recognize the correct values AND reduce spending. People on the "public payrolls and the largest benifactors of the last 5 year property boom and increased revenues will fight the hardest against any spending reductions, but in the end who elects the town respresentatives? If they do not follow the wishes of those that elected them then they should not get a second chance (term).

11-27-2007, 11:53 PM	#31
jeffk Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 205 Thanked 424 Times in 242 Posts	My taxes dropped this year My assessed value and my taxes declined from last year. Not by much, but since the bill usually goes up at least 7 % I figure a slight dollar drop actually equates to a real drop of the 7% increase that I didn't have to pay. I just gotta ask, when the lake property values shot UP 20% like they did a few years ago did anyone run to their town and offer to pay their new higher fair share of the property tax? It probably took a year or two for the assessments to catch up with the sales values. I'll bet no one complained about the LAG then.

11-28-2007, 01:18 AM	#32
LIforrelaxin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Long Island, not that one, the one on Winnipesaukee Posts: 2,836 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 885 Times in 518 Posts	Taxes Taxes are never going to be fair. They are always going to be a pain in the rear. It doesn't matter how they get it the gov't is always going to get enought money to do what they want. So the choices are simple. The people of NH either need to take a more active role in there govt. and let represntatives know how they feel about spending etc. And then decided whether or not the current tax system is the best way to meet the needs. Being a resident of Vermont for a while. Sure they got all types of tax put into place. But I don't see people having to give up dream homes because they can't pay property taxes. Vermont also has many things in the tax stadgy to help people. out, so that they can try and better themselve. I am not saying that vermont is a good model. What I am saying is that NH needs to wiegh its options, the people need to get involved, something will change, and when it does you can either be satisfied that you help mold the change by getting involved, or sit by the sidelines and realize you need to stay quiet because you didn't stand up.... __________________ Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....

11-28-2007, 12:33 PM	#34
hockeypuck Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southern CT Posts: 169 Thanks: 19 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Stop crying. You don't pay an outrageous amount of taxes. Everyone, everywhere pays taxes and most don't like it. Unfortunately, people loose their homes to taxes all over the country. At least you live in the best region of the best state in the best country in the world. Bite the bullet and enjoy what you have.

11-28-2007, 01:25 PM	#36
Sammy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 73 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Lagging The town of Alton reduced the value of my property by $20,000 and increased the tax rate. Now my taxes are $1,000 higher than last year. How's that for a plan...

11-28-2007, 03:20 PM	#39
hockeypuck Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southern CT Posts: 169 Thanks: 19 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Sunbeam, we all feel the pain. Let me see if I have this right. The dollar is worth less, my house is worth less, taxes are going up, stock market is going down, energy cost are going up because dollar is worth less, food prices are going up partrially because of energy cost and use of corn for ethanol. I think there is inflation in the things we all need; food, energy and shelter. A good friend of mine is in the export business and says that it is difficult to find space on any boat of plane for cargo going out of the US to overseas. Everything in the USA is on sale at a discount to those overseas. I don't know if that is a good thing or not. See what happens when the dust settles.

11-28-2007, 07:44 PM	#41
Silver Duck Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Billerica, MA Posts: 364 Thanks: 40 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Can anyone tell me how the state government raises money for operating expenses? Somehow it seems unlikely to me that the few revenue sources that I'm aware of (i.e., taxes on tobacco, gasoline, hotel room rental, meals, and maybe booze) would be enough to take care of the state's revenue needs. Silver Duck

11-29-2007, 12:09 AM	#45
jeffk Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 205 Thanked 424 Times in 242 Posts	I pulled this off the state website a while ago. 2005 Revenue Interest & Dividends Tax 66,929,900 Estate & Legacy Taxes 11,909,724 Business Profits Tax 209,747,332 Business Enterprise Tax 236,162,258 Communications Svs Tax 69,557,473 Electricity Consumption Tax 6,229,864 Meals & Rentals Tax 192,196,642 Tobacco Tax 99,307,075 Real Estate Transfer Tax 160,430,527 Utility Property Tax 20,087,776 Excess State Ed Prop Tax 20,934,231 Other (includes RR) 871,900 TOTAL 1,094,364,703 Also consider that NH reps are essentially not paid, a minor stipend ($100) and expense reimbursements only. That in itself keeps costs down a bit. There are 400 in the House and 24 in the Senate. To pay them each 50K (similar to Mass) would cost over $21 million a year.

11-29-2007, 09:59 AM	#47
jeffk Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 205 Thanked 424 Times in 242 Posts	Property value down as "compared to what" I agree the first line of defense against paying higher taxes is controlling spending. However, you have to understand how property taxes work. If your property value drops 4% and everyone else's property value drops 7%, congratulations you win higher taxes as "compared to everyone else". This can often be the case in a vacation area where expensive second home prices may be hit harder than smaller residential home prices. This effectively shifts some of the tax burden to the residential homes which now, comparatively, are worth more. The tax follows the comparative value. Even if spending is absolutely flat the amount of tax paid by any one individual can change based on the comparitive value of their property.

12-14-2007, 10:59 AM	#56
This'nThat Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 534 Thanks: 19 Thanked 134 Times in 61 Posts	Combine Alton Cell Towers with lower taxes Seems to me one way of getting lower property taxes in Alton is to build those cell towers. The Town is already on record that the towers will be an eyesore that affects our "View". And, since our property taxes now include a "View" tax, all of our property assessments should drop -- dramatically -- if the cell towers are built. Not only do we get lower taxes, as a result -- we also get cell service for the first time. A win-win!