Taxes

[ITD]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

SB2
Solves all of this crap.

Many cannot sit for hours listening to all sorts of people babbling at the microphones.

SB2. All day voting. Walk in. Vote. Walk out.

Simple.

Fortunately most of the voters in Moultonboro know this absolutely not true and voted sb2 down last time it was up.

[tis]

Originally Posted by ITD

Fortunately most of the voters in Moultonboro know this absolutely not true and voted sb2 down last time it was up.

Why do you think this and why are the voters afraid of SB2? They don't WANT more people to vote? SB2 won't "solve all of the crap" but it certainly will bring out more voters. I just don't understand how anybody can be afraid of SB2 unless they are the tiny little group that would like to control each town. Please enlighten me.

[jeffk]

I can understand the faults of SB2.

Responsible citizens should take time to understand the issues they are voting on. At a town level, the issues are not on TV or in many papers. Sometimes the only place you can learn about them is at town meeting.

If you are focused on the issue that school budgets are too big and you don't come to a town meeting, there is little chance you might hear the other side of the discussion. And vice versa.

As to the "tiny little group" that likes to "control" the town, isn't it just as likely that a budget that is sensible can be overridden by a group whose only purpose is to defeat that budget without further ado. With SB2, it's easy. No discussion. No exchange of ideas. Just vote it down. I have seen such things happen and at the next voting opportunity it is reversed because the impact of the cuts upsets so many people that they made sure they came out to vote the next time.

To be clear, I am not on either side of this spending discussion. I believe that town spending should be limited and that we are probably spending on things we shouldn't be. On the other hand, there are some things we DO need to spend on; even if it stretches our pocketbook somewhat. The only way to sort this out is to discuss it and ask questions. If you are too busy to attend a town meeting to listen and then vote, maybe what you are complaining about isn't all that important to you. If you find yourself outvoted all the time, maybe you are living in a town that just doesn't see things your way. That's the way democracy works, the majority gets what they want. The RIGHT WAY to change minds and votes is to present reasoned and persuasive discussion, not to drop vote bombs and scurry home.

[tis]

Originally Posted by jeffk

I can understand the faults of SB2.

Responsible citizens should take time to understand the issues they are voting on. At a town level, the issues are not on TV or in many papers. Sometimes the only place you can learn about them is at town meeting.

If you are focused on the issue that school budgets are too big and you don't come to a town meeting, there is little chance you might hear the other side of the discussion. And vice versa.

As to the "tiny little group" that likes to "control" the town, isn't it just as likely that a budget that is sensible can be overridden by a group whose only purpose is to defeat that budget without further ado. With SB2, it's easy. No discussion. No exchange of ideas. Just vote it down. I have seen such things happen and at the next voting opportunity it is reversed because the impact of the cuts upsets so many people that they made sure they came out to vote the next time.

To be clear, I am not on either side of this spending discussion. I believe that town spending should be limited and that we are probably spending on things we shouldn't be. On the other hand, there are some things we DO need to spend on; even if it stretches our pocketbook somewhat. The only way to sort this out is to discuss it and ask questions. If you are too busy to attend a town meeting to listen and then vote, maybe what you are complaining about isn't all that important to you. If you find yourself outvoted all the time, maybe you are living in a town that just doesn't see things your way. That's the way democracy works, the majority gets what they want. The RIGHT WAY to change minds and votes is to present reasoned and persuasive discussion, not to drop vote bombs and scurry home.

Although a SB2 town doesn't have a "town meeting" at which they vote on many of the articles, they do have a "deliberative session" before voting day where the taxpayers can become more informed and can propose changes to amendments if they want to. So this is where you have your "exchange of ideas". I agree, it's not easy to find out information, you have to work for it.

[Weekend Pundit]

Originally Posted by tis

Although a SB2 town doesn't have a "town meeting" at which they vote on many of the articles, they do have a "deliberative session" before voting day where the taxpayers can become more informed and can propose changes to amendments if they want to. So this is where you have your "exchange of ideas". I agree, it's not easy to find out information, you have to work for it.

I have seen deliberative sessions in our town with a couple of hundred attending and others with less the 50. Some of that depends upon what's on the town or school warrant.

During the voting session we see between 1300 and 1500 voters (out of ~5900 registered voters) showing up to vote. But I have no idea how well informed they may or may not be when they enter the voting booth. I have no idea how many vote based upon reason and logic and those who vote based upon how they feel. It's a crap shoot.

I have seen town and school budgets rejected by the voters, and I did not disagree with them for doing so. I have seen budgets passed by voters that I thought should have been rejected because they were too loaded with "nice to haves" rather than "need to haves". (I think the problem is that some folks have a problem telling the difference between the two.)

In the end it comes down to what the voters decide. If they don't like the increased taxes their vote created, they have no one to blame but themselves. However, there are still too many of our fellow townsfolk that cannot seem to make the connection between the two.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Weekend Pundit

I have seen deliberative sessions in our town with a couple of hundred attending and others with less the 50. Some of that depends upon what's on the town or school warrant.

During the voting session we see between 1300 and 1500 voters (out of ~5900 registered voters) showing up to vote. But I have no idea how well informed they may or may not be when they enter the voting booth. I have no idea how many vote based upon reason and logic and those who vote based upon how they feel. It's a crap shoot.

I have seen town and school budgets rejected by the voters, and I did not disagree with them for doing so. I have seen budgets passed by voters that I thought should have been rejected because they were too loaded with "nice to haves" rather than "need to haves". (I think the problem is that some folks have a problem telling the difference between the two.)

In the end it comes down to what the voters decide. If they don't like the increased taxes their vote created, they have no one to blame but themselves. However, there are still too many of our fellow townsfolk that cannot seem to make the connection between the two.

The sad thing is most people don't really understand what they are voting for.

[Biggd]

I talked to a Meredith resident last night that told me the town was looking for a 12% increase but got too much push back from residents. They "found money" somewhere to keep the increase down. Where did this "found money' come from? Did they have a surplus from the previous year?

[tbonies]

Originally Posted by tis

Although a SB2 town doesn't have a "town meeting" at which they vote on many of the articles, they do have a "deliberative session" before voting day where the taxpayers can become more informed and can propose changes to amendments if they want to. So this is where you have your "exchange of ideas". I agree, it's not easy to find out information, you have to work for it.

Nice to see a thoughtful well reasoned post amongst all the annual tax whiners.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by tis

Although a SB2 town doesn't have a "town meeting" at which they vote on many of the articles, they do have a "deliberative session" before voting day where the taxpayers can become more informed and can propose changes to amendments if they want to. So this is where you have your "exchange of ideas". I agree, it's not easy to find out information, you have to work for it.

I was aware of this and absolutely agree that you COULD go to the "deliberative session" if they wanted to. However, people pushing SB2 were emphasizing the problem of sitting through the long combined deliberative session and voting. They emphasized the ease of just voting (cluelessly) under SB2.

I don't think SB2 encourages responsible citizenship. "Easy" citizenship, yup.

[John Mercier]

In the modern world, where much of the population doesn't have a standard schedule, ease means something.

It does make it a bit more difficult for those that support a spending line to make their case in a differing format.

[jeffk]

If you seek easy solutions, you deserve the results that you get.

[John Mercier]

I've been fairly happy with our results.

SB2 allows me to vote on the issue, even if I can't make the schedule due to work/etc.

Very few things are emergencies, and the basic items we generally understand.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

In the modern world, where much of the population doesn't have a standard schedule, ease means something.

It does make it a bit more difficult for those that support a spending line to make their case in a differing format.

Are you saying you think the deliberate session is more difficult than the town meeting? Not sure what you mean.

[Diver1111]

As I sell Long Term Care Insurance and have for 25 years, in my experience, the whole Down Payment question is only associated with Continuing Care Retirement Communities aka CCRCs.

CCRCs allow for "aging in place" meaning while you may reside in an "Independent" area on the grounds at first, as your needs increase you can move to the Assisted Living Facility/ALF area on the same grounds, perhaps a Nursing Facility also on the same grounds and the most expensive-the Memory Care unit or wing. Bottom line is that you don't have to move-the CCRC theoretically can provide soup-to-nuts services in one location.

While I have not read an Application to a CCRC in a long time, all have some sort of sum of money you must produce as part of the move to a CCRC. Some give some of back at death, some I have read give perhaps 90% back at death etc.. While they are similar contractually, no CCRC I have encountered is the same. Read everything they give you.

CCRCs may not look like one especially if you only focus on say, the ALF part.

No ALF any of my Clients have ever moved to required any Down Payment of any kind. You choose and pay for any services you need above what is included in the Contract w/the montlhy rent according to any Plan-of-Care/POC you may have.

Contrary to popular opinion Long Term Care Policies pay for all sorts of things provided at a CCRC as long as you meet the claims criteria. Where you live is for the most part not even relevant.

Some folks cancel their LTC Insurance coverage because-for whatever reason-they were under the impression that because they paid money upfront to move into a CCRC that the coverage was redundant-not so and generally a big mistake.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Are you saying you think the deliberate session is more difficult than the town meeting? Not sure what you mean.

Probably about the same...
But the schedule is harder.

SB2, I have all day to vote and it only takes a couple minutes.
The deliberate session, I can choose to attend or not depending on if I have an issue I want to address.

In town meeting, you have to sit through the whole thing and watch issues hashed out that sometimes are more a pet peeve than serious savings/spending.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Probably about the same...
But the schedule is harder.

SB2, I have all day to vote and it only takes a couple minutes.
The deliberate session, I can choose to attend or not depending on if I have an issue I want to address.

In town meeting, you have to sit through the whole thing and watch issues hashed out that sometimes are more a pet peeve than serious savings/spending.

So you're saying the town meeting is harder because you can't vote without sitting through the meeting right? I agree and the town meeting is often at night and runs very late so that sometimes people leave and then a vote can be brought up again and revoted.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

So you're saying the town meeting is harder because you can't vote without sitting through the meeting right? I agree and the town meeting is often at night and runs very late so that sometimes people leave and then a vote can be brought up again and revoted.

Correct.
The process is not timely for those with certain schedules, and we no longer live in a society were communication is limited.