Interesting Real Estate Increases

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Thanks , Tilton BB, for a snapshot of market activity , which has been nuts this past year...could almost make me regret retiring...not really...too many headaches schlepping people all over the place. My husband recently checked and could find only one waterfront property under a million in Moultonboro. Lots of money around, and people are eliminating contingencies from their contracts in order to be more attractive to sellers...pretty risky stuff. Anyhow, it will be interesting to see how long this boom lasts.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Thanks , Tilton BB, for a snapshot of market activity , which has been nuts this past year...could almost make me regret retiring...not really...too many headaches schlepping people all over the place. My husband recently checked and could find only one waterfront property under a million in Moultonboro. Lots of money around, and people are eliminating contingencies from their contracts in order to be more attractive to sellers...pretty risky stuff. Anyhow, it will be interesting to see how long this boom lasts.

The boom will last as long as the stock market is working well and giving nice returns. They both go hand in hand.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler

The boom will last as long as the stock market is working well and giving nice returns. They both go hand in hand.

Exactly, People that had a lot of money before this pandemic started have made out quite well.
People that were living pay check to pay check are struggling more than ever.
It's unfortunate that even though essential workers have kept their jobs through all this they are the ones that are stressed the most, maybe not financially but emotionally.
It's been a boon for the "haves" and a bust for the "have nots".

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Exactly, People that had a lot of money before this pandemic started have made out quite well.
People that were living pay check to pay check are struggling more than ever.
It's unfortunate that even though essential workers have kept their jobs through all this they are the ones that are stressed the most, maybe not financially but emotionally.
It's been a boon for the "haves" and a bust for the "have nots".

Don’t agree with you entirely. Many small businesses and restaurant owners were doing very well before the pandemic and have exhausted their “have” resources trying to keep their businesses going. These many people have gone from “haves” to “have nots”

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[Biggd]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Don’t agree with you entirely. Many small businesses and restaurant owners were doing very well before the pandemic and have exhausted their “have” resources trying to keep their businesses going. These many people have gone from “haves” to “have nots”


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Yes, it has effected certain businesses differently.
Some have seen their business skyrocket while others have tanked.
I wouldn't put all small business owners in the "have" basket. Many small business owners were never making tons of money even before the pandemic. They were just making a healthy living.
It's the freedom of being your own boss that drives many small business owners.
Notice I said "had a lot of money", "not made a lot of money". I had an uncle that always said, "it's not how much money you make, it's what you do with it after you make it".

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Yes, it has effected certain businesses differently.
Some have seen their business skyrocket while others have tanked.
I wouldn't put all small business owners in the "have" basket. Many small business owners were never making tons of money even before the pandemic. They were just making a healthy living.
It's the freedom of being your own boss that drives many small business owners.
Notice I said "had a lot of money", "not made a lot of money". I had an uncle that always said, "it's not how much money you make, it's what you do with it after you make it".

Again I have many clients and friends with small businesses and restaurants that did extremely well over many years and are now in extreme financial distress. Having to use all their life long earning to keep the business afloat including mortgaging business and personal property. Just because a business is small doesn’t necessarily mean they do not make out really well and are not “haves”.

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[Descant]

Good points, Joey.
But I'm looking at your restaurant owner who "did well" and saved for retirement. Then the government says you can only serve 6 tables. You need 12 to break even and if you can fill 24, you'll make some money. When you cash in some investment to stay afloat or to buy outdoor serving equipment, you (add insult to injury) get nicked for taxes on the capital gain. What's the work around here?
To me, these folks need more help than "forgiving" college loans. I remember when people "worked their way" through college or other school, no loans.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Descant

Good points, Joey.

But I'm looking at your restaurant owner who "did well" and saved for retirement. Then the government says you can only serve 6 tables. You need 12 to break even and if you can fill 24, you'll make some money. When you cash in some investment to stay afloat or to buy outdoor serving equipment, you (add insult to injury) get nicked for taxes on the capital gain. What's the work around here?

To me, these folks need more help than "forgiving" college loans. I remember when people "worked their way" through college or other school, no loans.

I absolutely agree. There are many things on the list, first and foremost helping the small businesses that where hot the hardest before student loan debt is forgiven.

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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Descant

I remember when people "worked their way" through college or other school, no loans.

Then you must also remember when paying for college was "easy". The cost has absolutely skyrocketed over the past 30 years or so. It is no longer possible for anybody to work their way through school in four years. Here's a piece from Forbes--8X the rate of inflation!

This is not the kids' fault.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilom...h=c710e4266c1d

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Then you must also remember when paying for college was "easy". The cost has absolutely skyrocketed over the past 30 years or so. It is no longer possible for anybody to work their way through school in four years. Here's a piece from Forbes--8X the rate of inflation!

This is not the kids' fault.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilom...h=c710e4266c1d

A personal perspective for me: my folks spent just over $8000 tuition/ R&B at Macalester College in St Paul MN for the 1964-65 school year.

For 2019 , tuition was $58, 0000+ and R&B was $13, 000+, total cost in excess of $71k!

Yikes

Dave

[Descant]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Then you must also remember when paying for college was "easy". The cost has absolutely skyrocketed over the past 30 years or so. It is no longer possible for anybody to work their way through school in four years. Here's a piece from Forbes--8X the rate of inflation!

This is not the kids' fault.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilom...h=c710e4266c1d

As more and more grants, financial plans, scholarships, etc became available, the colleges raised their tuition and fees to keep pace with available funds. Another irony to me is fund raising. The private college I attended receives financial support from around 50% of alumni. Last time I looked at UNH, their rate was about 8-10%, with ~42 paid staff in the development department.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Descant

As more and more grants, financial plans, scholarships, etc became available, the colleges raised their tuition and fees to keep pace with available funds. Another irony to me is fund raising. The private college I attended receives financial support from around 50% of alumni. Last time I looked at UNH, their rate was about 8-10%, with ~42 paid staff in the development department.

I agree that the fault is largely with the colleges. An irony for you in return--as the financial support has grown, college has become less affordable in total.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Again I have many clients and friends with small businesses and restaurants that did extremely well over many years and are now in extreme financial distress. Having to use all their life long earning to keep the business afloat including mortgaging business and personal property. Just because a business is small doesn’t necessarily mean they do not make out really well and are not “haves”.

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I have just as much compassion for those people as I do for people that had nothing before and have even less now. Maybe that's where we differ?

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I have just as much compassion for those people as I do for people that had nothing before and have even less now. Maybe that's where we differ?

I never said I had no compassion for the “have nots”. You are misinterpreting my post.

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[tis]

But isn't it all really relative? Average salary in 1965 was 4-6 thousand a year. Tuition according to you up was $8000. Cost is much higher now but so is average salary.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by tis

But isn't it all really relative? Average salary in 1965 was 4-6 thousand a year. Tuition according to you up was $8000. Cost is much higher now but so is average salary.

$8000.00 in 1964 is equivalent to approximately $68,000.00 today....

Dan

[Sue Doe-Nym]

How times have changed....in 1962, our combined income as new graduates was $10,000, and we were able to save all of mine, some of his, and were able to buy our first house a year later....$24,500 bought a charming stone Tudor on 1.5 acres...only 2 bedrooms..1 bath (no tub), with detached 3 car garage in Media, PA. Life was good then...much simpler....many wonderful memories of that era. P.S. I forgot...it had 2 fireplaces....oooozed charm.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Exactly, People that had a lot of money before this pandemic started have made out quite well.
People that were living pay check to pay check are struggling more than ever.
It's unfortunate that even though essential workers have kept their jobs through all this they are the ones that are stressed the most, maybe not financially but emotionally.
It's been a boon for the "haves" and a bust for the "have nots".

Those who live pay check to pay check make that choice. It has consequences. I do not feel sorry for them what so ever. Not when you see millions of immigrants (legal or not) managing to survive, even thriving on jobs that Americans are either to lazy or simply refuse to do because it is beneath them. Opportunity abounds for those willing to work for it, save and live responsibly. It's not a matter of luck but shear determination and sacrifice. I know plenty of multi millionaires who are just average everyday people who never had a flashy high paying job and did not then or now live like a rock star. In fact many passed on what is today considered to be "essentials" but managed to live without.

If you don't think the "haves" as you put it were not hit hard when they lost businesses and took massive losses in investments it shows a complete and utter lack of intelligence.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Those who live pay check to pay check make that choice. It has consequences. I do not feel sorry for them what so ever. Not when you see millions of immigrants (legal or not) managing to survive, even thriving on jobs that Americans are either to lazy or simply refuse to do because it is beneath them. Opportunity abounds for those willing to work for it, save and live responsibly. It's not a matter of luck but shear determination and sacrifice. I know plenty of multi millionaires who are just average everyday people who never had a flashy high paying job and did not then or now live like a rock star. In fact many passed on what is today considered to be "essentials" but managed to live without.

If you don't think the "haves" as you put it were not hit hard when they lost businesses and took massive losses in investments it shows a complete and utter lack of intelligence.

All the wealthy people I know have become enormously more wealthy over the past 4 years, this past year esp.
As for my "lack of intelligence" your showing yours with that degrading statement, but not unexpected from you.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Biggd

All the wealthy people I know have become enormously more wealthy over the past 4 years, this past year esp.

Obviously the 70% or so of Americans who have less than $1k are all making bad decisions. It's your complete and utter lack of intelligence that prevents you from seeing it.

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[Biggd]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Obviously the 70% or so of Americans who have less than $1k are all making bad decisions. It's your complete and utter lack of intelligence that prevents you from seeing it.

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Well with that statement I guess we could say that everyone that lost money this year has made bad decisions.
It just goes to show that not all decisions are under your control.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Investments in the stock market can equal returns and rewards. It can also lead to losses. The same argument can be said for real estate.

I think the obvious difference is that people have to live in Real Estate, but they don't have to invest in the stock market.

Are folks at fault for not investing in real estate or the stock market? No, but they also don't get to enjoy the potential upside returns, or suffer the downside losses.

Is there a right or wrong answer here? Not really, but planning for the future is likely a better route to take than living from pay check to pay check. Some people can afford to do so, others can not.

Let's hope that everyone has a crystal ball and makes decisions which work for them.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Obviously the 70% or so of Americans who have less than $1k are all making bad decisions. It's your complete and utter lack of intelligence that prevents you from seeing it.

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I'm not sure if my point was visible through the dripping sarcasm, but to be clear: simplifying poverty to bad decision making is absurd.

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[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Biggd

All the wealthy people I know have become enormously more wealthy over the past 4 years, this past year esp.

And why is that?

Betcha it has nothing to do with a bigger pay check and everything to do with the fact they have investments that have increased in value. That wealth generated was not a guarantee, there was risk involved and there was volatility along the way. For those that were in and stuck with it all reaped the benefits. To all that did - congrats! To all those that didn't, to bad so sad.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

And why is that?

Betcha it has nothing to do with a bigger pay check and everything to do with the fact they have investments that have increased in value. That wealth generated was not a guarantee, there was risk involved and there was volatility along the way. For those that were in and stuck with it all reaped the benefits. To all that did - congrats! To all those that didn't, to bad so sad.

I have nothing against the people that have made lots of money in the market, I'm one of them.
I just have compassion for the ones that don't have that ability. Not all the "have nots" are lazy just as not all the "haves" earned their money through hard work.

[sky's]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I have nothing against the people that have made lots of money in the market, I'm one of them.
I just have compassion for the ones that don't have that ability. Not all the "have nots" are lazy just as not all the "haves" earned their money through hard work.

lets see what happens in Georgia this week this will determine the momentum of the stock market. Still wondering what happened in November? if so many made alot of money in 2020 why change and go Democrat. beyond me???????????

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by sky's

lets see what happens in Georgia this week this will determine the momentum of the stock market. Still wondering what happened in November? if so many made alot of money in 2020 why change and go Democrat. beyond me???????????

What about people that don't have money in the market, aren't they American voters too?

[YOLO]

Originally Posted by Biggd

What about people that don't have money in the market, aren't they American voters too?

If you have a pension, 401K or other retirement vessel, you are in the market whether you know it or not.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by YOLO

If you have a pension, 401K or other retirement vessel, you are in the market whether you know it or not.

True, but not really. If you have $100K or so in the stock market via your 401K, you might pick up $7-8K/year on average. That's nice, but hardly earth-shaking.

Also, as the past 12 years have made clear--it's kind of silly to think one party or another is a good bet to improve your stock portfolio. We've had essentially a straight line through very different presidents and very different times, even within each presidency. Compounding the puzzle is that Obama's fiscal policies were actually more conservative than Trump's.

Buy and hold...and pray! is the best investment strategy

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

True, but not really. If you have $100K or so in the stock market via your 401K, you might pick up $7-8K/year on average. That's nice, but hardly earth-shaking.

Also, as the past 12 years have made clear--it's kind of silly to think one party or another is a good bet to improve your stock portfolio. We've had essentially a straight line through very different presidents and very different times, even within each presidency. Compounding the puzzle is that Obama's fiscal policies were actually more conservative than Trump's.

Buy and hold...and pray! is the best investment strategy

Exactly, we've had a 12 year run up in stock prices. What goes up must come down.
It's only a matter of time before it turns downward.
If interest rates start to rise then be very afraid!

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Exactly, we've had a 12 year run up in stock prices. What goes up must come down.
It's only a matter of time before it turns downward.
If interest rates start to rise then be very afraid!

Stock prices may go up and down but the question is how much and for how long. We suffered a serious drop at the beginning of the year but the markets have mostly recovered. Personally, I finished the year in the black. Not by much but in the black. Some investments finished significantly (10% - 15% up). The worst thing about the market isn't the risk of loss, it is the volatility. If you are traveling along from point A to point B do you want to ride on a highway or a roller coaster? Many people cannot tolerate a roller coaster. It makes them very fearful and sick. These people may put their money in a CD and don't make enough money to keep up with inflation but they KNOW their principle is not at risk. Other people love riding on the roller coaster and KNOW at the end of the ride they will be better off. The risk of the market, for careful investors playing the long game is low. It is the best way to make money in the long run.

2007 was a lot worse. The drop was more significant and it took 5 1/2 just to recover. But the market DID recover and has grown significantly.

I DO worry about interest rates, not directly for myself but for the government debt. If rates spike, the raw dollars needed to pay for the interest will go through the roof, exploding the yearly deficit. Certainly it will also be painful for people trying to buy a house or a car. I was caught buying a house in the 80s when the mortgage rates spiked. OUCH! But a few years later they dropped, I refinanced, locked in a low rate, and got my monthly bill dropped a lot. The lesson is, if you can avoid it, put off buying on credit at times of high interest. Interest rates go down as well as up. Also, ditch your highest interest rate loans as soon as you can. The government doesn't have this option and seems to think that infinitely growing debt is not a problem. COVID expenses are making, and will continue to make this problem much worse.

[ACME on the Broads]

How did we go from a simple easy to recap real estate comparative to debating the haves and have nots, pensions, the stock market, personal wealth, the election, college tuition, R&B then and now, small business challenges.....etc?

HOW ABOUT THOSE RED SOX!

[Descant]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

True, but not really. If you have $100K or so in the stock market via your 401K, you might pick up $7-8K/year on average. That's nice, but hardly earth-shaking....

If you have $100K in a tax deferred account at age 35, at 7--8% it should double every 10 years, that's $800K at age 65. If you also continued to add to that 401k, you'd likely have $1MM. At the same 7-8% that throws off $75K a year. That's pretty good in my book, probably earth shattering for some.
The difficulty, of course, is getting to that first $100K. Lots of temptations, new cars instead of used, bigger fancier house, resort hotels instead of campgrounds. And, student debt, as discussed earlier. These days, the trades make more fiscal sense than they did years ago when our schools pushed four year colleges. My independent plumber charges $125 for a quick house call. That's $250K a year if he has 40 billable hours a week. How often do you read this forum or FB and people are in need of a plumber, electrician, etc.? Heritage Home Services isn't advertising on TV for customers. They're advertising because they need tradespeople! But we still rank our high schools based on how many graduates go on to a 4 year college.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

True, but not really. If you have $100K or so in the stock market via your 401K, you might pick up $7-8K/year on average. That's nice, but hardly earth-shaking.

I strongly disagree if you are in your mid 30s with 100k making 8% compounded over 30 years even without additional contributions is 1m. That’s significant and that’s without adding another penny. Additionally if you have it in a Roth IRA it is completely tax free.

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[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I strongly disagree if you are in your mid 30s with 100k making 8% compounded over 30 years even without additional contributions is 1m. That’s significant and that’s without adding another penny. Additionally if you have it in a Roth IRA it is completely tax free.

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Those that have access to an HSA (Health Savings Account) should consider putting as much in there as possible. I believe the max for 2021 is $8,200. Do that year after year and it'll add up quickly. You are essentially self-funding at least part of your future health care needs and you are all but guaranteed to need a lot of money for that eventually. HSA's help take some of this burden off the table by offering triple tax advantages:

1. Contributions are tax free.
2. Investment growth is tax free (many plans offer a multitude of investment options).
3. Withdrawals are tax free provided they're used for qualified medical expenses.

Max out your 401K (the portion that's matched by your employer), invest remaining dollars into the HSA, more remaining dollars into a ROTH or traditional IRA, and if you still have dollars remaining, continue funding the unmatchable portion of your 401K. Select well diversified investments that reflect your risk tolerance.

Also note that there are annual limits to how much in total you can invest in tax advantaged accounts like this. I seem to recall that number being in the upper $50K area.

I know that many folks don't have access to these vehicles but I'm often surprised at how many do, yet fail to take advantage of them.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I strongly disagree if you are in your mid 30s with 100k making 8% compounded over 30 years even without additional contributions is 1m. That’s significant and that’s without adding another penny. Additionally if you have it in a Roth IRA it is completely tax free.

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You've sort of lost the general point which is that very few people have significant wealth in the stock market. First, on the specifics--do you know many 30 somethings with $100K in the market? But more broadly--the top 1% own more than have of the equity value in the US, the bottom 50% own less than 1%. So when we prop up the stock market, virtually all the benefit goes to those already wealthy. As I would imagine you know from your accounting practice, the large majority of boomers do not have enough to retire over the next few years.

Here's more on the market distribution, and an explanation of how wealthy people are able to increase their wealth dramatically with no hard work or brains necessary after their initial windfall:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/27/weal...ouseholds.html

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

You've sort of lost the general point which is that very few people have significant wealth in the stock market. First, on the specifics--do you know many 30 somethings with $100K in the market? But more broadly--the top 1% own more than have of the equity value in the US, the bottom 50% own less than 1%. So when we prop up the stock market, virtually all the benefit goes to those already wealthy. As I would imagine you know from your accounting practice, the large majority of boomers do not have enough to retire over the next few years.

Here's more on the market distribution, and an explanation of how wealthy people are able to increase their wealth dramatically with no hard work or brains necessary after their initial windfall:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/27/weal...ouseholds.html

Starting at nothing, zero, nada, a monthly investment of $300 per month for 40 years yields a million+ dollar portfolio with an average 8% return year over year. Obviously the more you have the more return there is on a set percentage. That's the whole point of investing, reap the benefits of compounding returns. You don't need a "windfall" to get started and get there you just need discipline. That's it, it ain't rocket science and it ain't luck. With a bar set that low there is no reason why anyone today isn't retiring with that or even half that.

The reason why so many are unprepared for retirement is very easily explained, just look in the mirror.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Starting at nothing, zero, nada, a monthly investment of $300 per month for 40 years yields a million+ dollar portfolio with an average 8% return year over year. Obviously the more you have the more return there is on a set percentage. That's the whole point of investing, reap the benefits of compounding returns. You don't need a "windfall" to get started and get there you just need discipline. That's it, it ain't rocket science and it ain't luck. With a bar set that low there is no reason why anyone today isn't retiring with that or even half that.

The reason why so many are unprepared for retirement is very easily explained, just look in the mirror.

A million dollars in 40 years will be nothing.
$300 a month 40 years ago was a fortune.

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[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

A million dollars in 40 years will be nothing.
$300 a month 40 years ago was a fortune.

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That example is dumbed down for illustration purposes. There are many factors that come into play and if that were a more accurate depiction the end result would be far greater than 1 million with a dollar value adjusted for inflation from start to finish even with no fluctuation in the rate of return.

Common you got FAR MORE education than I to throw out a dubious response like that.

[Winilyme]

Agree that achieving those dollar amounts take time, the ability to stomach steep up and downs and ABSOLUTE DISCIPLINE. This is what I taught my 21 year old daughter who just graduated from college and began her investment journey in high school. We had a pact that any money she earned or was gifted would be divided three ways - 1/3 education, 1/3 retirement and 1/3 whatever she wanted. She's stuck to it for eight years and has about $7,000 saved for retirement. That doesn't seem like much but with only part time work for most of that time, she's learned the value of saving AND investing. I'm hoping that education will last a lifetime.

There's also a wealth of resources out there to learn about investing so, 40 years from now, I really don't see "I didn't know what to do" as being a very good excuse for having meager retirement savings. As I've always told my daughter - start now and you will easily retire in comfort.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by YOLO

If you have a pension, 401K or other retirement vessel, you are in the market whether you know it or not.

Pensions have been on there way out for years and many people don't even have retirement accounts because they barely make enough to get by on. Those people are American voters too.
Many jobs today are independent contractor jobs where you get no benefits and a 1099 at the end of the year.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Biggd

All the wealthy people I know have become enormously more wealthy over the past 4 years, this past year esp.
As for my "lack of intelligence" your showing yours with that degrading statement, but not unexpected from you.

This is exactly it. If you've had money in the stock market or similar investments, it's been a gusher of additional wealth for approximately the last 12 years.

Ironically, to Maxum's argument, this additional wealth from the stock market has required zero brains or effort--it only requires that you had money in 2009 (through some earlier combination of brains, work, luck).

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

This is exactly it. If you've had money in the stock market or similar investments, it's been a gusher of additional wealth for approximately the last 12 years.

Ironically, to Maxum's argument, this additional wealth from the stock market has required zero brains or effort--it only requires that you had money in 2009 (through some earlier combination of brains, work, luck).

No argument from me there.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

This is exactly it. If you've had money in the stock market or similar investments, it's been a gusher of additional wealth for approximately the last 12 years.

Ironically, to Maxum's argument, this additional wealth from the stock market has required zero brains or effort--it only requires that you had money in 2009 (through some earlier combination of brains, work, luck).

All that has been needed is the concept of dollar cost averaging, through the ups and downs, let the market do it's thing, just keep making that monthly payment to yourself into well managed low cost mutual funds, ETFs or if you have the desire go buy your own portfolio of individual stocks. Years later YOU reap the benefits.

On the contrary you can live like a rock star, leverage every bit of credit you have to do it and let somebody else reap the long term benefit while you live pay check to pay check floating all that debt with little to show for it at the end of the day.

It's a simple choice or maybe better put philosophy.

[lagoon]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Those who live pay check to pay check make that choice. It has consequences. I do not feel sorry for them what so ever. Not when you see millions of immigrants (legal or not) managing to survive, even thriving on jobs that Americans are either to lazy or simply refuse to do because it is beneath them. Opportunity abounds for those willing to work for it, save and live responsibly. It's not a matter of luck but shear determination and sacrifice. I know plenty of multi millionaires who are just average everyday people who never had a flashy high paying job and did not then or now live like a rock star. In fact many passed on what is today considered to be "essentials" but managed to live without.

If you don't think the "haves" as you put it were not hit hard when they lost businesses and took massive losses in investments it shows a complete and utter lack of intelligence.

Many of us have put all of our assets, life savings too, to keep businesses afloat. It kept others being paid while I was not and I was investing the entire time in them.

Your attitude is condescending and rude to many who have tried to get through this intact somehow. I would guess you don't care what others think anyway.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by lagoon

Many of us have put all of our assets, life savings too, to keep businesses afloat. It kept others being paid while I was not and I was investing the entire time in them.

Your attitude is condescending and rude to many who have tried to get through this intact somehow. I would guess you don't care what others think anyway.

Well you are right about one thing I really don't care what anyone thinks as if I did listen to what everyone was telling me I would have been convinced that I had little to no chance of doing or amounting to much of anything.

Far as the context to my comments, this was not just directed at the past year, but as a general statement of fact. If the best anyone can do is live paycheck to paycheck that will never work as a long term strategy. As I learned in the military adapt and overcome. Is it easy, hell no, but failure comes easy to those that are complacent.

I have never been condescending to business owners, in fact I admire them for doing something that I have personally 3 times tried and 3 times failed miserably at. Current events have been difficult if not impossible on many business owners, large and small. Many have already lost the battle, others continue to hold on but for how long remains to be seen as the future looks bleak for many. Much of the reasoning behind why this is occurring is political and the American people have spoken as to what they want moving forward. If you as a business owner think it's bad now, just wait it's going to get even more toxic. This will have rippling effects that will not only hurt businesses but also those they can no longer employ.

[neckdweller]

That 1 year/$8K number in the 60’s looked off because tuition has outpaced wage growth for some time now.

Anyhow, not sure how reliable the source but it’s the Mac Weekly so I assume reliable?

Macalester tuition broke the $1,000 mark for the first time in 1963 as students shelled out $1,320 per year for the full room and board and tuition package. That being said, average personal income more than doubled from 1945 to $2,773 in 1965. Within the next two decades, Macalester tuition really began to skyrocket. In 1980, tuition cost $4,725 with room/board at $1,800. In 1984-1985 these figures increased to $7,520 and $2,600, respectively. Income likewise rose from $9,910 in 1980 to $14,427 in 1985.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by neckdweller

That 1 year/$8K number in the 60’s looked off because tuition has outpaced wage growth for some time now.

Anyhow, not sure how reliable the source but it’s the Mac Weekly so I assume reliable?

That quote makes more sense—$8k in the 60's is crazy money for college.

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[Newbiesaukee]

Yearly tuition in 1961 for Cornell (Arts and Sciences) was $1400.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by neckdweller

That 1 year/$8K number in the 60’s looked off because tuition has outpaced wage growth for some time now.

Anyhow, not sure how reliable the source but it’s the Mac Weekly so I assume reliable?

That figure was what I got from my folks when Macalester did not ask me to return after my freshman year. In the intervening years, besides not having the internet to do research, I had no reason to doubt the figure.

I know they did take out a loan. I don't know if it included other costs, such as transportation. I paid for my own books, which were less than $200 for the year.

Given your figures, it points out even more how college costs have increased.

Thanks for the info

Dave

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

That figure was what I got from my folks when Macalester did not ask me to return after my freshman year. In the intervening years, besides not having the internet to do research, I had no reason to doubt the figure.

I know they did take out a loan. I don't know if it included other costs, such as transportation. I paid for my own books, which were less than $200 for the year.

Given your figures, it points out even more how college costs have increased.

Thanks for the info

Dave

"When Macalester did not ask me to return"! Sounds incredibly similar to when UML put me on "academic suspension" for an "insufficient GPA to continue studies."

My parents, also, made me pay the loan they took out for that failed year. They also aged a decade in a moment when I told them I, their last child and hope for a college graduate, was dropping out.

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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

"When Macalester did not ask me to return"! Sounds incredibly similar to when UML put me on "academic suspension" for an "insufficient GPA to continue studies."

My parents, also, made me pay the loan they took out for that failed year. They also aged a decade in a moment when I told them I, their last child and hope for a college graduate, was dropping out.

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Stop the presses! You're a teacher today, right? How/when did you turn things around? Spill the tea!

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Stop the presses! You're a teacher today, right? How/when did you turn things around? Spill the tea!

Short version: '94-'95 UML for plastics engineering because a high school test said it would be a good fit. It wasn't, nor was I "ready." Returned in '00 under the Fresh Start program and, after a mentor professor took me under his wing, found my calling as an English teacher. This year makes 16 in a solid middle-class community with night school, private summer school, and many, many hours of tutoring.

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[Jersey Bob]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Short version: '94-'95 UML for plastics engineering because a high school test said it would be a good fit. It wasn't, nor was I "ready." Returned in '00 under the Fresh Start program and, after a mentor professor took me under his wing, found my calling as an English teacher. This year makes 16 in a solid middle-class community with night school, private summer school, and many, many hours of tutoring.

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Sometimes it only takes maturing to do better in college.
That and perseverance.

I ask people that are older than the “regular” student when they are saying they will be x age when the graduate it y years, how old will they be in y years if they don’t continue with school.

OTOH, the cost for college has gotten out of hand.

[MeredithMan]

Originally Posted by Jersey Bob

Sometimes it only takes maturing to do better in college.
That and perseverance.

I ask people that are older than the “regular” student when they are saying they will be x age when the graduate it y years, how old will they be in y years if they don’t continue with school.

OTOH, the cost for college has gotten out of hand.

I went to BU 1980-1984....cost was $9K, $10K, $11K, $12K each year. My son is now a Junior at WPI...sticker price before deducting scholarships, student loans, etc is $62K per year.

As a friend of mine described it, "it's like buying a new Mercedes every year for 4 years and pushing it off a cliff. You spend the money but don't get to enjoy it"

[Jersey Bob]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Short version: '94-'95 UML for plastics engineering because a high school test said it would be a good fit. It wasn't, nor was I "ready." Returned in '00 under the Fresh Start program and, after a mentor professor took me under his wing, found my calling as an English teacher. This year makes 16 in a solid middle-class community with night school, private summer school, and many, many hours of tutoring.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Sometimes it only takes maturing to do better in college.
That and perseverance.

I ask people that are older than the “regular” student when they are saying they will be x age when the graduate it y years, how old will they be in y years if they don’t continue with school.

OTOH, the cost for college has gotten out of hand.