Why standing up for the Constitution is important

[Seaplane Pilot]

This is what it's come down to:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-off...ry?id=70032966

For those of you that have no problem flushing the Constitution down the toilet, this is a perfect example of why this is a very bad idea. At least the 6 year old girl is smart enough to realize this, unlike the majority of the population that throws it to the wayside. "She's learned that our constitutional rights are something worth standing up for," Mooney said. "She got to witness a violation of civil rights. She got to witness an unlawful order by the police."

Where and when did the founding fathers draft anything in the Constitution that said these said provisions can be suspended due to a virus? Look around, this is happening everywhere. Hopefully, once the dust settles and things get back to "normal", court cases will be filed in order to prevent this from happening in the future. Lives and businesses ruined forever, clearly the cure was worse than the disease. Instead of "exploding", the better term would be that it's "blowing up" in the faces of the alarmists. Now the spin comes that the "social distancing" saved 2 million lives. Pathetic.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

This is what it's come down to:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-off...ry?id=70032966

For those of you that have no problem flushing the Constitution down the toilet, this is a perfect example of why this is a very bad idea. At least the 6 year old girl is smart enough to realize this, unlike the majority of the population that throws it to the wayside. "She's learned that our constitutional rights are something worth standing up for," Mooney said. "She got to witness a violation of civil rights. She got to witness an unlawful order by the police."

Where and when did the founding fathers draft anything in the Constitution that said these said provisions can be suspended due to a virus? Look around, this is happening everywhere. Hopefully, once the dust settles and things get back to "normal", court cases will be filed in order to prevent this from happening in the future. Lives and businesses ruined forever, clearly the cure was worse than the disease. Instead of "exploding", the better term would be that it's "blowing up" in the faces of the alarmists. Now the spin comes that the "social distancing" saved 2 million lives. Pathetic.

Hi SP,

This is a great example of police overreach and idiocy, and I agree it's very dangerous.

I also agree with your general point that we should not be risking constitutional rights. Big on this big point, another article was even scarier to me--not a couple of cops who are morons, but a President who appears willing to limit voting at this difficult time. I hope you will join me in saying that our President, Congress, and courts need to do everything they can to make sure everybody can vote this Fall, and that social distancing is not used as an excuse to disenfranchise people. (if you don't like the Times, just Google Wisconsin voting--virtually every outlet reports this the same way)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/u...gtype=Homepage

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Hi SP,

This is a great example of police overreach and idiocy, and I agree it's very dangerous.

I also agree with your general point that we should not be risking constitutional rights. Big on this big point, another article was even scarier to me--not a couple of cops who are morons, but a President who appears willing to limit voting at this difficult time. I hope you will join me in saying that our President, Congress, and courts need to do everything they can to make sure everybody can vote this Fall, and that social distancing is not used as an excuse to disenfranchise people. (if you don't like the Times, just Google Wisconsin voting--virtually every outlet reports this the same way)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/u...gtype=Homepage

I agree with you 100%. I also stand firm that voter ID should be mandatory to minimize/prevent voter fraud.

[radar4401]

The Wisconsin Supreme court ruled on the merits of the case. Trump had nothing to do with it. The case was improperly filed and the Governor wanted to allow people to vote after the close of the polls. This could have been avoided if they postponed the election to a later date. A better read on the subject was in the Wall Street Journal. Not as biased as the times.

[Wifi-1]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

..... I also stand firm that voter ID should be mandatory to minimize/prevent voter fraud.

I agree to this point completely.

[Top-Water]

When I vote and the poll worker asks ......... do you have I.D.


I gladly hand it over and present it to them.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Top-Water

When I vote and the poll worker asks ......... do you have I.D.


I gladly hand it over and present it to them.

As it should be! There's no valid reason to operate otherwise, except to facilitate fraud and skew the results. How opponents argue against this with a straight face is a complete joke.

[Hillcountry]

Soros is pushing for a vote by DROP BOX!
You gotta be shi$$$ng me!😡

[Mr. V]

This is a great example of police overreach and idiocy,

How?

He said he knew the park was closed but went there anyway.

When asked to provide ID he refused.

[Flylady]

Originally Posted by Hillcountry

Soros is pushing for a vote by DROP BOX!
You gotta be shi$$$ng me!😡

So who will be blamed when there is no "Soros"? The last proven election fraud was in South Carolina ..remember in 2018? I hear a lot of talk about election fraud however very little evidence to back it up.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Flylady

So who will be blamed when there is no "Soros"? The last proven election fraud was in South Carolina ..remember in 2018? I hear a lot of talk about election fraud however very little evidence to back it up.

Perfect. Then there should be no resistance from the left to implement mandatory voter ID. ID is required for everything else, so why should it not be required for such an important process as voting. Problem solved.

[Newbiesaukee]

Originally Posted by Hillcountry

Soros is pushing for a vote by DROP BOX!
You gotta be shi$$$ng me!😡

I try to understand whether things I read are true. By Googling I came to a site labeled “ABC 14 News.” Ok so far...I thought maybe a local ABC station. So, I’m reading this story about Soros and realize that the article could not have been written by anyone who speaks English. I don’t mean just a few typos. So I Google ABC News 14 and find it really is a Fake News unreliable site.

The site is clearly designed to stir up emotions in a negative way and we fall for it.

Look it up yourself.

I am not getting into the basic issue of Soros...just the fact that even if a news site says what you want to read, it does not mean it’s true.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Perfect. Then there should be no resistance from the left to implement mandatory voter ID. ID is required for everything else, so why should it not be required for such an important process as voting. Problem solved.

A lot of poor people do not have photo IDs. I am not poor, but my only photo IDs are a driver's license and a passport. If you do not drive or fly, there is a high likelihood that you do not have a photo ID.

But you are switching the burden of proof here--you propose a new law to foil election fraud. Please point us to a significant case of election fraud in the US that would have been foiled with voter ID laws.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

FYI New Hampshire offers a Non-Driver Photo Identification just to cover what you are mentioning. There are areas such as medical situations where an ID is required. It could be used for voter ID.

[Top-Water]

When I go to the bank and forget my walet.

I get no money

You don't need to drive to have a photo I.D.

Edit: See post above this one.

[Pricestavern]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Now the spin comes that the "social distancing" saved 2 million lives. Pathetic.

From an earlier post of mine:
_________________________________
I gauze into my crystal ball and see...

Thousands of American citizens dead but not millions. People look at the final numbers and say, "See - it was a hoax. Not nearly as many people died. It wasn't the catastrophe predicted. Fake news."

It will remind me of Y2K and how, after tens of thousands of IT workers spend millions of hours combing thru code and fixing problems in the couple of years leading up to 2000, not much went wrong and people looked back and said, "See! It was much ado about nothing." The efforts and preparations lost to them in the moments after that midnight.

It will be because of the self-quarantines, the social distancing, the closures of social gathering places and places of business that 3.2 million people did not ultimately die. But cause and effect can be intangible things that only look at the moment.

It is a bad foreboding for the future should a truly terrible virus comes along, something akin to Ebola but spreads farther, and people will look back at covid-19 and say, "See! Another hoax." The lessons will having not been learned and we dither...
___________________________

...and so it begins

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee

I try to understand whether things I read are true. By Googling I came to a site labeled “ABC 14 News.” Ok so far...I thought maybe a local ABC station. So, I’m reading this story about Soros and realize that the article could not have been written by anyone who speaks English. I don’t mean just a few typos. So I Google ABC News 14 and find it really is a Fake News unreliable site.

The site is clearly designed to stir up emotions in a negative way and we fall for it.

Look it up yourself.

I am not getting into the basic issue of Soros...just the fact that even if a news site says what you want to read, it does not mean it’s true.

Classic "cherry picking".

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

A lot of poor people do not have photo IDs. I am not poor, but my only photo IDs are a driver's license and a passport. If you do not drive or fly, there is a high likelihood that you do not have a photo ID.

But you are switching the burden of proof here--you propose a new law to foil election fraud. Please point us to a significant case of election fraud in the US that would have been foiled with voter ID laws.

No offense here but I am so tired of hearing about the "poor" as a reason to do something that is fundamentally stupid such as allowing voting with zero proof of who you are and are eligible to vote. If everyone is SO concerned with the integrity of elections this is a sure way to minimize fraud.

Let's see the numbers showing a significant number of people with no photo ID. Bet it's minuscule.

Furthermore just as an example a non-driver's license photo ID from the state of NH costs a whopping 10 bucks. There is no way I would ever be convinced that somebody is so darn poor they can't afford a $10.00 ID.

[Newbiesaukee]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Classic "cherry picking".

Not sure I understand what you mean in this context. Again, I am not discussing Soros specifically.

I googled “Soros drop box voting” The ABC 14 site came up and I read it because it looked legit.

How is that cherry picking, unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

[garysanfran]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

No offense here but I am so tired of hearing about the "poor" as a reason to do something that is fundamentally stupid such as allowing voting with zero proof of who you are and are eligible to vote. If everyone is SO concerned with the integrity of elections this is a sure way to minimize fraud.

Let's see the numbers showing a significant number of people with no photo ID. Bet it's minuscule.

Furthermore just as an example a non-driver's license photo ID from the state of NH costs a whopping 10 bucks. There is no way I would ever be convinced that somebody is so darn poor they can't afford a $10.00 ID.

That the law requires anyone out in public to be able to identify themselves. ..i.e. An ID. Also, if you travel with no ID and get in a health emergency...You're in deep doo doo!!!

[Top-Water]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

.........

I wish "you" could repost that list of all the things we are giving up without question.

Something to make you really think were we are at, and how easy as a society we have been to take over.

I think of it everyday.................. what we are giving up.

Reminds me of this old episode of the twilight zone. where we did not ask or seek out all the answeres to the questions. we just did what they told us because it all sounded so good.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

No offense here but I am so tired of hearing about the "poor" as a reason to do something that is fundamentally stupid such as allowing voting with zero proof of who you are and are eligible to vote. If everyone is SO concerned with the integrity of elections this is a sure way to minimize fraud.

Let's see the numbers showing a significant number of people with no photo ID. Bet it's minuscule.

Furthermore just as an example a non-driver's license photo ID from the state of NH costs a whopping 10 bucks. There is no way I would ever be convinced that somebody is so darn poor they can't afford a $10.00 ID.

11% nationwide (I think I win our bet). And never mind the 10 bucks--over 600K people in Texas do not even have the paperwork that would be required to get one.

It's really easy for comfortable people to forget how difficult life is on the bottom of the ladder. Stuff that we take for granted--driver's licenses, IDs, credit cards, bank accounts, etc are shockingly tough for millions in the US (Google hispanics without bank accounts)

But you did not answer my question--where are the cases of voter fraud?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...972_story.html

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee

Not sure I understand what you mean in this context. Again, I am not discussing Soros specifically.

I googled “Soros drop box voting” The ABC 14 site came up and I read it because it looked legit.

How is that cherry picking, unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

Sorry, I was referring to the original poster.

[BrunoSR]

Buy a pack of smokes, where’s your ID?

Buy some beer at the local market, where’s your ID?

Cash a check, where’s your ID?

So why is there an issue on voting?

So "poor people" don't have any vices?

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

11% nationwide (I think I win our bet). And never mind the 10 bucks--over 600K people in Texas do not even have the paperwork that would be required to get one.

So if they cannot provide the paperwork necessary to get an ID which proves my point - what says you are a legal voter? The law states you must be a citizen to vote. It is not ambiguous. Neither should be proving it. No proof no ID, no ID, no vote. Simple as that.

Current population of TX 28.30 million. +/-600K can't figure out how to get an ID. Screw 'em if 28,299,400 residents can well I'd say that's close enough and yes in this case 600K is minuscule.

I'm betting there are PLENTY of poor people represented in that 28 million.

This has nothing to do with a person's financial situation, or the other typical excuses race and gender.

[coolyourjets]

Originally Posted by BrunoSR

Buy a pack of smokes, where’s your ID?

Buy some beer at the local market, where’s your ID?

Cash a check, where’s your ID?

So why is there an issue on voting?

So "poor people" don't have any vices?

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the Constitution. The US Constitution gives people the right to vote. The states make their own voting laws. I believe it's 34 or 35 states have laws requiring ID and only a handful have laws requiring a government issued ID.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

That the law requires anyone out in public to be able to identify themselves. ..i.e. An ID. Also, if you travel with no ID and get in a health emergency...You're in deep doo doo!!!

There is no law that requires you to carry an ID in public, such as walking down a sidewalk.

You can be required to identify yourself to a police officer that has a reasonable suspicion. However that can be verbal.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

So if they cannot provide the paperwork necessary to get an ID which proves my point - what says you are a legal voter? The law states you must be a citizen to vote. It is not ambiguous. Neither should be proving it. No proof no ID, no ID, no vote. Simple as that.

Current population of TX 28.30 million. +/-600K can't figure out how to get an ID. Screw 'em if 28,299,400 residents can well I'd say that's close enough and yes in this case 600K is minuscule.

I'm betting there are PLENTY of poor people represented in that 28 million.

This has nothing to do with a person's financial situation, or the other typical excuses race and gender.

Nice deflection!

But 11% is not "minuscule", and we're still waiting for your examples of voter fraud...

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Still waiting for your examples of voter fraud...

LOL kinda hard to prove fraud when you can't prove identity or track who and where a person voted now isn't it?

Of course that's the whole point. You're not interested in whether or not those that are eligible to vote do so and ensure one vote per person is cast.

[Orion]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Nice deflection!
.......we're still waiting for your examples of voter fraud...

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud

[thinkxingu]

Heritage Foundation? That's rich.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...s-recent-voter

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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

LOL kinda hard to prove fraud when you can't prove identity or track who and where a person voted now isn't it?

Of course that's the whole point. You're not interested in whether or not those that are eligible to vote do so and ensure one vote per person is cast.

No, it should not be hard if it exists in any sort of significant way. Interestingly, the panel that the President appointed to look into this had the same problem. To the President's credit--once he saw there was really nothing there, he disbanded the panel. (Similar to him catching up when he realized covid was actually dangerous)

Also, please do not opine on what I am interested in or not--I have not accused you of wanting to suppress votes, you should not accuse me of being indifferent to stuffing the ballot box.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/u...ommission.html

[coolyourjets]

Originally Posted by Orion

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud

Please quote reliable and unbiased news sources. Sourcing the likes of The Heritage Foundation and OANN, which are right of Brietbart and Sean Hannity would be like quoting NYT or the Guardian on the left. Both have an agenda to spin. Dare I say, a lot of Fake News. Quote the facts of a more moderate and fact-based news organization. Someone earlier mentioned the WSJ..even NPR. Damn, even Fox News is more moderate that these organizations.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

11% nationwide (I think I win our bet). And never mind the 10 bucks--over 600K people in Texas do not even have the paperwork that would be required to get one.

It's really easy for comfortable people to forget how difficult life is on the bottom of the ladder. Stuff that we take for granted--driver's licenses, IDs, credit cards, bank accounts, etc are shockingly tough for millions in the US (Google hispanics without bank accounts)

But you did not answer my question--where are the cases of voter fraud?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...972_story.html

I am not going to apologize for being one of the “comfortable people” as this issue has nothing to do with being poor. Any U.S. citizen should be able to obtain a driver’s license or photo ID and be able to vote. If someone is here illegally, that individual should not be allowed to vote....period!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

No offense here but I am so tired of hearing about the "poor" as a reason to do something that is fundamentally stupid such as allowing voting with zero proof of who you are and are eligible to vote. If everyone is SO concerned with the integrity of elections this is a sure way to minimize fraud.

Let's see the numbers showing a significant number of people with no photo ID. Bet it's minuscule.

Furthermore just as an example a non-driver's license photo ID from the state of NH costs a whopping 10 bucks. There is no way I would ever be convinced that somebody is so darn poor they can't afford a $10.00 ID.

If you must have an ID to vote AND you charge even one penny for that ID you are violating the Constitution.

The 24th Amendment to the Constitution passed in 1963 says you can not be made to pay ANYTHING to vote. Look it up.

[thinkxingu]

Threads like these make be wonder what the general demographic of this forum is.

I gotta think that, given the nature of lake involvement (real estate costs, taxes; boats, snowmobiles, and other toys; travel costs, etc.) it begins at upper middle class and moves up?

Sorry to throw the OP off, but I just can't help wonder how much of the political discourse is driven by this.

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[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If you must have an ID to vote AND you charge even one penny for that ID you are violating the Constitution.

The 24th Amendment to the Constitution passed in 1963 says you can not be made to pay ANYTHING to vote. Look it up.

I actually think NDL IDs should be free.

I got no problem with the cost of producing those IDs being taken out of the welfare budget.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

No, it should not be hard if it exists in any sort of significant way. Interestingly, the panel that the President appointed to look into this had the same problem. To the President's credit--once he saw there was really nothing there, he disbanded the panel. (Similar to him catching up when he realized covid was actually dangerous)

Also, please do not opine on what I am interested in or not--I have not accused you of wanting to suppress votes, you should not accuse me of being indifferent to stuffing the ballot box.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/u...ommission.html

It's impossible to PROVE fraud when the very means to determine it are not available. Similar to proving somebody has COVID 19 without actually testing them to confirm it even though they may show all the symptoms.

By requiring an ID there is no suppression of voting, get an ID you're good to go, fail to do so and you can't. That is not suppression, it's simply putting a simple requirement to ensure the law is being followed.

By taking the position of not requiring an ID would infer the consequences of doing so are acceptable.

[Not to Worry]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

No offense here but I am so tired of hearing about the "poor" as a reason to do something that is fundamentally stupid such as allowing voting with zero proof of who you are and are eligible to vote. If everyone is SO concerned with the integrity of elections this is a sure way to minimize fraud.

Let's see the numbers showing a significant number of people with no photo ID. Bet it's minuscule.

Furthermore just as an example a non-driver's license photo ID from the state of NH costs a whopping 10 bucks. There is no way I would ever be convinced that somebody is so darn poor they can't afford a $10.00 ID.

The arrogance in that statement is amazing. I understand that we all write things we would likely not simply say in person but yikes that was callous.

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by Flylady

So who will be blamed when there is no "Soros"? The last proven election fraud was in South Carolina ..remember in 2018? I hear a lot of talk about election fraud however very little evidence to back it up.

Apparently, you don’t remember Florida and the giant fraud the dems we’re trying to pull off with cases and cases of ballots that suddenly appeared after the fact...
How about “hanging chads” remember that one? If a card is punched, it’s a vote...doesn’t matter if the tiny “chad” is still clinging or not.

How about the thousands of “dead people” that vote each election?

These are a few I can recall in the past few years...trust me, there are plenty.
And by the way, ONE fraudulent vote is TOO MANY.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Not to Worry

The arrogance in that statement is amazing. I understand that we all write things we would likely not simply say in person but yikes that was callous.

Was on my own at 18 with nothing but a high school education. I got no help and wanted none.

I am where I am because I worked my rear end off. If I can do it anyone can, but most who started out where I did won't because it's to hard. Anyone who has and has done better than me, that's awesome!

There is NO excuse for anyone to be poor in this country, I've been in third world countries where those folks who I do have empathy for got nothing and zero opportunity. Here opportunity abounds for those that are willing to do what it takes to succeed.

[ishoot308]

The law also states that one must be 18 years of age to vote. How do we confirm that and follow the law without checking identification?

I agree with Maxum non drivers ID’s should be free.

Dan

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Nice deflection!

But 11% is not "minuscule", and we're still waiting for your examples of voter fraud...

Here are just a few of those examples you were looking for:


Court filings by the Texas Attorney General reveal that funding for a voter fraud ring came from the former head of the Texas Democratic Party in Fort Worth.

Leticia Sanchez and three other vote “harvesters” have been indicted for allegedly submitting fraudulent absentee ballot applications and then either intercepting the ballots in mailboxes or improperly “assisting” elderly voters in filling out their ballots.

Separately, the Texas attorney general has announced he’s investigating mailers sent to non-citizens by the state Democratic Party asking them to register using applications that already had the box asking about citizenship checked ‘Yes.’”

As the Secretary of State told radio host Erick Erickson, there are 75,000 pending voters among a record total of 7 million registered in the state of Georgia. Of these, 9,224 are minors under 18; 2,935 used a fake address; 3,393 are not citizens, and 5,842 were already registered.fake address.

Of the remaining applications, 75 percent submitted erroneous Social Security information. Almost a quarter of those “sloppy forms” came from a registration effort by the New Georgia Project, a group founded in 2014 by Stacey Abrams, the Democratic nominee for governor.

California was recently forced to admit that it had mistakenly registered almost 25,000 ineligible voters. The state didn’t even realize it was registering noncitizens until a Canadian who is a permanent resident of the U.S. contacted The Los Angeles Times to say he had been improperly registered under the state’s new automatic voter registration system.

Michigan lacks a system to keep false citizenship claims from being accepted during voter registration. The group’s preliminary study of the Detroit metro area found at least 1,444 non-citizens have been registered to vote in recent years.

A 2012 report by the Pew Center on the States found that more than 1.8 million dead people were registered to vote and 2.75 million people were registered in more than one state.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Not to Worry

The arrogance in that statement is amazing. I understand that we all write things we would likely not simply say in person but yikes that was callous.

I don’t think his statement is arrogant at all; to me, it makes perfect sense, every word of it. He has made a success of himself through hard work, and that’s commendable. There’s no need for him to apologize for that, and it’s too bad that there aren’t more people who are driven to succeed. Yikes... it’s not callous.

P.S. This post got off topic, so my apologies for veering off.

[Not to Worry]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

I don’t think his statement is arrogant at all; to me, it makes perfect sense, every word of it. He has made a success of himself through hard work, and that’s commendable. There’s no need for him to apologize for that, and it’s too bad that there aren’t more people who are driven to succeed. Yikes... it’s not callous.

P.S. This post got off topic, so my apologies for veering off.

I was so poor could not afford to buy lunch...today I own what some folks call a McMansion. I know what hard work is. I know what it takes to succeed but I will never forget what is was like to live hand to mouth. I am proud of what I accomplished but I will not spit on someone who cannot afford $10...because at one point in my life that was me.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Not to Worry

I was so poor could not afford to buy lunch...today I own what some folks call a McMansion. I know what hard work is. I know what it takes to succeed but I will never forget what is was like to live hand to mouth. I am proud of what I accomplished but I will not spit on someone who cannot afford $10...because at one point in my life that was me.

Nobody should ever be demeaned for not being able to afford something. In the case of a U.S. citizen who is eligible for a valid ID but can’t afford it, I would think/hope that the fee could be waived. It’s vital that our citizens be able to vote ONCE in every election.

[BrunoSR]

Originally Posted by coolyourjets

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the Constitution. The US Constitution gives people the right to vote. The states make their own voting laws. I believe it's 34 or 35 states have laws requiring ID and only a handful have laws requiring a government issued ID.

My point is this, some are against having to provide an ID to vote because "poor" people can't afford the cost of a $10 state issued ID. But they seem to be able to produce an ID when shopping or going to the bank as well as other places.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Flylady

So who will be blamed when there is no "Soros"? The last proven election fraud was in South Carolina ..remember in 2018?

Any champion of George Soros needs to check the TV interview with Steve Kroft. George Soros has five children, two of whom are presently directing Soros' political machines—most of whom are picking the pockets of American taxpayers.

"Hanging chads" are easy to make when you try to punch through several ballots (at once).

Originally Posted by Flylady

I hear a lot of talk about election fraud however very little evidence to back it up.

Voter fraud evidence is hard to find with the secret ballot.

Yet we still found voter fraud here in New Hampshire about eight years ago.

...and in the abutting Florida counties of Broward and Palm Beach. One former official was given a sentence that expires just before this November's election. Just voted in—the brand new votes of convicted felons.

In California, a school board member (make that "former") yelled to her audience, "You don't need papers to vote".

How about the woman, voted into a Maryland office, who admitted voting a second time in Florida? Some studies show perhaps hundreds of New Yorkers who vote again in Florida. Who knew that such a big window for Florida voting could result in people voting in two states?

Just go to Google, type in voter-fraud and any state, and cases-galore will appear. Sadly...

Perhaps this year, active social networks will disclose many more cases:

[gillygirl]

I’m thinking more than an ID, people who want to vote should prove that they can pass a basic civics test. Perhaps everyone should be required to pass the test that immigrants must take to obtain citizenship. Lazy, “born to it” citizens should show they have the rational, logical decision-making thought process in order to vote.


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[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

I’m thinking more than an ID, people who want to vote should prove that they can pass a basic civics test. Perhaps everyone should be required to pass the test that immigrants must take to obtain citizenship. Lazy, “born to it” citizens should show they have the rational, logical decision-making thought process in order to vote.


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You make a good point, GG, but can you even imagine the screams of protest if passing a civics test became a requirement to vote??? There would be pandemonium! Jay Leno used to interview people on the street as an occasional segment on his show, and the ridiculous answers he got for questions supposedly intelligent people should have known the answers to on current issues, etc. were unbelievable. We used to crack up watching it, but it was a bit scary. As a nation, we are not well informed on many subjects.

[Lakegeezer]

In the last presidential election, over 70% of eligible voters in NH cast their votes. This was better than the ~60% nationwide. We do well, but should be encouraging the other 30% and making sure every legitimate voice is heard. Nobody ineligible should be voting, but those at high medical risk should not fear exposure to cast their ballot. Mail-in ballots and early voting are a start. Day-of registration is useful, assuming proof of eligibility. Programs to get acceptable ID's to those without them would help. What else is keeping people from the polls?

There are examples of voting fraud in NH and elsewhere, and some of those people rightfully got in trouble. There are many more examples of eligible citizens that couldn't vote for one reason or another, yet nobody was held accountable. That appears to be a bigger problem than fraud. While we should hope the virus doesn't suppress voter participation in November, the state should be preparing a work-around because it might be.

[tbonies]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Was on my own at 18 with nothing but a high school education. I got no help and wanted none.

I am where I am because I worked my rear end off. If I can do it anyone can, but most who started out where I did won't because it's to hard. Anyone who has and has done better than me, that's awesome!

There is NO excuse for anyone to be poor in this country, I've been in third world countries where those folks who I do have empathy for got nothing and zero opportunity. Here opportunity abounds for those that are willing to do what it takes to succeed.

Here we go again. How many times do we have to hear the tired chest beating "I am a self made man?" The last paragraph is just arrogant icing on the cake. There but for the grace of God go I.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

What else is keeping people from the polls?

Decent candidates.


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[The Real BigGuy]

I’ve gone thru 3 pages of this thread and have yet to see anyone post any evidence of proven voter fraud. Lots of supposition, fake news, and accusations. All by the aggrieved party in a losing election. The fact is, actual voter fraud is so minimal that it is insignificant relative to the results of an election. The answer is doing what a lot of the posters on this forum write when discussing boating laws & refs - enforce the existing voting laws & regs (I.e. removing dead people from voting lists when they die) before you impose a new law.


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[swnoel]

Originally Posted by BrunoSR

My point is this, some are against having to provide an ID to vote because "poor" people can't afford the cost of a $10 state issued ID. But they seem to be able to produce an ID when shopping or going to the bank as well as other places.

Or buy cigarettes or alcohol... amazing how quick some find money when they want to. It's time for a national voter ID... free just like our SS card.

[Bigstan]

Originally Posted by tbonies

Here we go again. How many times do we have to hear the tired chest beating "I am a self made man?" The last paragraph is just arrogant icing on the cake. There but for the grace of God go I.

Not true at all. God gave you free will to be what you’ll be and do what you do, right or wrong.

Spend time bettering yourself and improving your situation or spend it in other less beneficial pursuits, it’s your call.

God never made anyone successful or anyone poor, you do that yourself. God has nothing to do with the fact that most people lack the drive and discipline to succeed. Grace doesn’t apply.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by tbonies

Here we go again. How many times do we have to hear the tired chest beating "I am a self made man?" The last paragraph is just arrogant icing on the cake. There but for the grace of God go I.

How many times do I need to hear a smug response like yours?

Typical and I just laugh at those that say this to me know why? I am living proof it CAN be done when it is just assumed it cannot be.

Want to know why there aren't more like me (not that i consider myself by any means the end all model of success as I'm not) because people like you chastise success and ridicule those that have done well for themselves and are proud of it. Since I have been "there" before, I get it, which is even more repulsive to you because I am not supposed to beat the odds, rather succumb to them. Now who is being arrogant and dare I say condescending.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

I’m thinking more than an ID, people who want to vote should prove that they can pass a basic civics test. Perhaps everyone should be required to pass the test that immigrants must take to obtain citizenship. Lazy, “born to it” citizens should show they have the rational, logical decision-making thought process in order to vote.


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At first read I thought this post was a joke.

The Voting Rights Act passed in 1964 absolutely outlaws any kind of test to be able to vote.

Before that many states had a civic test requirement. Some of them given orally. However it turned out that in many places minorities were unable to pass these test. Even highly educated minorities. We don't need to go back to that kind of discrimination.

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by swnoel

Or buy cigarettes or alcohol... amazing how quick some find money when they want to. It's time for a national voter ID... free just like our SS card.

Don't forget the ever present, very expensive, tattoos...Nothing against tats here but when you see all the "degenerates" and druggies that steal from honest, hard working people (including their own families) and they are literally covered in tats...a pet peeve of mine to say the least.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

At first read I thought this post was a joke.

The Voting Rights Act passed in 1964 absolutely outlaws any kind of test to be able to vote.

Before that many states had a civic test requirement. Some of them given orally. However it turned out that in many places minorities were unable to pass these test. Even highly educated minorities. We don't need to go back to that kind of discrimination.

It’s more of a frustration than a joke, born out of posts I see on this forum and others. When people post links to sites such as OAN and Epoch Times as “proof” for their arguments, it’s difficult to take them seriously. I suggest people go to the Media Bias/Fact Check site before relying on sources.


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

How many times do I need to hear a smug response like yours?

Typical and I just laugh at those that say this to me know why? I am living proof it CAN be done when it is just assumed it cannot be.

Want to know why there aren't more like me (not that i consider myself by any means the end all model of success as I'm not) because people like you chastise success and ridicule those that have done well for themselves and are proud of it. Since I have been "there" before, I get it, which is even more repulsive to you because I am not supposed to beat the odds, rather succumb to them. Now who is being arrogant and dare I say condescending.

On the contrary (at least as far as my thanks to the post you reference is concerned). I salute your success, and I am happy for you.

The flaw in your argument is that you minimize your own strength. People who are successful (such as you) are some combination of smarter, harder working, and luckier than others. The point is to have just a bit of empathy for those without your brains and/or luck.

[Mr. V]

Some call us left coasters "liberals," or "progressives:" whatever the label, we definitely have figured out the best way to facilitate elections: VOTE BY MAIL.

We've been doing it, IIRC, since the last century, without any particular problems that I'm aware of.

And gee, what do you know: it's virus-proof.

[Flylady]

Apart from all the anecdotal sightings of fraud, the real issues where fraud has been proven the numbers as a percentage of all the registered voters is very small. Remember all the buses of MA. voters coming in to NH in 2016?

Voter ID: not every state is equal. Look at rural states in the south with predominately black populations with large numbers of citizens over 65. If the states were serious about wanting them to get "voter ID", they would waive the fee for very low income, and provide accessibility to locations where ID can be obtained. The opposite has been shown in many states. Closing of local DMV type offices, while not providing public transportation for the same. It goes on and on. Also remember that in some states (North Dakota) they actually tried to make it harder for native americans to vote by changing the rules.
As for cleaning out the voter roles of deceased people, many states just do not want to spend the time or money removing dead people from the roles. None of them have ever shown up to vote!

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Flylady

Apart from all the anecdotal sightings of fraud, the real issues where fraud has been proven the numbers as a percentage of all the registered voters is very small. Remember all the buses of MA. voters coming in to NH in 2016?

Voter ID: not every state is equal. Look at rural states in the south with predominately black populations with large numbers of citizens over 65. If the states were serious about wanting them to get "voter ID", they would waive the fee for very low income, and provide accessibility to locations where ID can be obtained. The opposite has been shown in many states. Closing of local DMV type offices, while not providing public transportation for the same. It goes on and on. Also remember that in some states (North Dakota) they actually tried to make it harder for native americans to vote by changing the rules.
As for cleaning out the voter roles of deceased people, many states just do not want to spend the time or money removing dead people from the roles. None of them have ever shown up to vote!

While it’s true that none of the dead people have ever shown up to vote 🙄
it’s probably also true that shady individuals have assumed their identities in order to steal an extra vote.

[tbonies]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

How many times do I need to hear a smug response like yours?

Typical and I just laugh at those that say this to me know why? I am living proof it CAN be done when it is just assumed it cannot be.

Want to know why there aren't more like me (not that i consider myself by any means the end all model of success as I'm not) because people like you chastise success and ridicule those that have done well for themselves and are proud of it. Since I have been "there" before, I get it, which is even more repulsive to you because I am not supposed to beat the odds, rather succumb to them. Now who is being arrogant and dare I say condescending.

You are a legend in your own mind. Lots of people are living proof in can be done. They just don't need to go around with a megaphone on social media constantly promoting it. Carry on.

[Biggd]

Everyone is different, some have physical deficiencies, some have mental deficiencies, some will do anything to get ahead, and some will not.
Hard work is one attribute to get ahead but it takes more than just that. You need good health, common sense, mental toughness, and yes, some luck.
I know many people that work extremely hard but never get ahead due to no fault of their own.
It's not easy, if it was everyone would be self sufficient and we know that will never happen. Some people just need help, some deserve it and some don't.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Everyone is different, some have physical deficiencies, some have mental deficiencies, some will do anything to get ahead, and some will not.
Hard work is one attribute to get ahead but it takes more than just that. You need good health, common sense, mental toughness, and yes, some luck.
I know many people that work extremely hard but never get ahead due to no fault of their own.
It's not easy, if it was everyone would be self sufficient and we know that will never happen. Some people just need help, some deserve it and some don't.

Agree 100%

Dan

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

At first read I thought this post was a joke.

The Voting Rights Act passed in 1964 absolutely outlaws any kind of test to be able to vote.

Before that many states had a civic test requirement. Some of them given orally. However it turned out that in many places minorities were unable to pass these test. Even highly educated minorities. We don't need to go back to that kind of discrimination.

It's been a few years, but I recall a short quote on this forum:

"There is no voter fraud".

Would you still own up to this statement?

[Seaplane Pilot]

Another example of government overreach and violating the Constitution:

https://news.iheart.com/featured/cor...line5_readmore

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by ApS

It's been a few years, but I recall a short quote on this forum:

"There is no voter fraud".

Would you still own up to this statement?

Wow! You went all the way back 7 years to find that quote. Why did you cut off the rest of my sentence?

I would not have a problem with asking voters for id if the was a demonstrable need for it. However there has been NO voter fraud in numbers of any significance.

I stand by that statement. Requiring a ID to vote is a solution in search of a problem.

[Mr. V]

Hard work is one attribute to get ahead but it takes more than just that. You need good health, common sense, mental toughness, and yes, some luck.

Please define "get ahead."

If you limit it to paying your bills, then most of us can do it on autopilot, so long as we walk the straight and narrow and make sound choices.

But if you meaning making a lot of dough, it's different.

To make good money takes more than what you said: it takes a viable plan.

Take white collar professionals: they had a plan to embark on a particular career, a career that would likely pay well, and after years of study, sacrifice and applied effort they reach their goal.

But the serious money comes to those who plan AND TAKE RISKS, who think outside the box, and who are firm of purpose.

Oh, we make our own luck.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

While it’s true that none of the dead people have ever shown up to vote
it’s probably also true that shady individuals have assumed their identities in order to steal an extra vote.

Voter fraud in this country is very low. The last case was in NC in 2018.

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[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Another example of government overreach and violating the Constitution:

https://news.iheart.com/featured/cor...line5_readmore

The Constitution was written when the likelyhood of a national pandemic was very small. It's up to the Supreme Court to judge the constitutionality of current edicts. I highly doubt they will get involved.

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[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Wow! You went all the way back 7 years to find that quote. Why did you cut off the rest of my sentence?

I would not have a problem with asking voters for id if the was a demonstrable need for it. However there has been NO voter fraud in numbers of any significance.

I stand by that statement. Requiring a ID to vote is a solution in search of a problem.

ApS is very good at parsing posts of other people. One of the reasons I left the forum under my original name.

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[Wifi-1]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Voter fraud in this country is very low. The last case was in NC in 2018.

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Actually, I heard it was in 1992, when someone reportedly voted for Ross Perot, couldn't be confirmed, unfortunately

[jbolty]

voter fraud is rampant in California but it's legal and they call it ballot harvesting.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by jbolty

voter fraud is rampant in California but it's legal and they call it ballot harvesting.

Please post reliable proof.

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[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

A lot of poor people do not have photo IDs. I am not poor, but my only photo IDs are a driver's license and a passport. If you do not drive or fly, there is a high likelihood that you do not have a photo ID.

But you are switching the burden of proof here--you propose a new law to foil election fraud. Please point us to a significant case of election fraud in the US that would have been foiled with voter ID laws.

Instead of changing the voting laws how about helping people who “do not drive or fly” to get state IDs? There problem solved.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

There is so much discussion about voter fraud and the use of photo IDs. I fail to see why anyone would object to producing a photo ID for the privilege of voting. If you are a U.S. citizen and want to vote, then get a photo ID. I don’t see how anyone can object, thinking it’s unconstitutional. This step won’t entirely eliminate voter fraud, but it should substantially reduce it. The photo ID should be provided at little or no cost to the citizen. JMO.

[jbolty]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Please post reliable proof.

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you have already made up your mind, so no amount of proof will mater but here are a couple links

https://www.heritage.org/election-in...election-fraud
https://thefederalist.com/2018/12/14...teal-election/


common sense says this is a bad idea. Someone shows up at your door "we see you have not mailed in your ballot can we collect it, or help you fill it out?" they do, but if it does not support their candidate it goes in the trash. Lunacy

[coolyourjets]

Originally Posted by jbolty

you have already made up your mind, so no amount of proof will mater but here are a couple links



https://www.heritage.org/election-in...election-fraud

https://thefederalist.com/2018/12/14...teal-election/





common sense says this is a bad idea. Someone shows up at your door "we see you have not mailed in your ballot can we collect it, or help you fill it out?" they do, but if it does not support their candidate it goes in the trash. Lunacy

You must have missed this..Gillygirl said a reliable source.


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[ApS]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Wow! You went all the way back 7 years to find that quote. Why did you cut off the rest of my sentence?

I would not have a problem with asking voters for id if the was a demonstrable need for it. However there has been NO voter fraud in numbers of any significance.

I stand by that statement. Requiring a ID to vote is a solution in search of a problem.

My original statement began with, "I recall".

I've retained no recollection of the rest of your post: Inserted among otherwise well-reasoned thoughts, "There is no voter fraud" stood out in my memory.

BTW: . Although "practiced" in other locales (like Hialeah, FL) California is
the only state with legalized "ballot-harvesting". Meanwhile, California went from a solid Ronald Reagan state to a neo-Commie nation.

A case of, "Willfully-Blind"?

[Reilly]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

On the contrary (at least as far as my thanks to the post you reference is concerned). I salute your success, and I am happy for you.

The flaw in your argument is that you minimize your own strength. People who are successful (such as you) are some combination of smarter, harder working, and luckier than others. The point is to have just a bit of empathy for those without your brains and/or luck.

FYI Most people that brag about what they have !! Have Nothing

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by ApS

My original statement began with, "I recall".

I've retained no recollection of the rest of your post: Inserted among otherwise well-reasoned thoughts, "There is no voter fraud" stood out in my memory.

BTW: . Although "practiced" in other locales (like Hialeah, FL) California is
the only state with legalized "ballot-harvesting". Meanwhile, California went from a solid Ronald Reagan state to a neo-Commie nation.

A case of, "Willfully-Blind"?

I guess we process posts on this forum differently. My post stayed in your memory for seven years! Your posts leave my brain in less that seven minutes.

[jbolty]

Originally Posted by coolyourjets

You must have missed this..Gillygirl said a reliable source.


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like I said, mind is already made up. there is no point in arguing with zealots.

The data from the U.S. Election Assistance Commission and the Election Administration and Voting Surveys for 2016 and 2018, provided by the Public Interest Legal Foundation (PILF), shows that between the 2016 and 2018 elections, roughly 16.4 million ballots mailed to registered voters went missing.

In the 2018 election, about 42.4 million ballots were mailed to registered voters. Of those mailed, more than one million were undeliverable, more than 430,000 were rejected, and nearly 10.5 million went missing.

The 2016 election showed similar discrepancies. That year, about 41.6 million ballots were mailed to registered voters. Of those mailed, more than 568,000 were undeliverable, nearly 320,000 were rejected, and close to six million went missing.

“Putting the election in the hands of the United States Postal Service would be a catastrophe. In 2018 and 2016, there were 16 million missing and misdirected ballots,” PILF President J. Christian Adams said in a statement.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I guess we process posts on this forum differently.

My post stayed in your memory for seven years!

Your posts leave my brain in less that seven minutes.

Slo-Joe commiserates.

Originally Posted by coolyourjets

Please quote reliable and unbiased news sources. Sourcing the likes of The Heritage Foundation and OANN, which are right of Brietbart and Sean Hannity would be like quoting NYT or the Guardian on the left. Both have an agenda to spin. Dare I say, a lot of Fake News. Quote the facts of a more moderate and fact-based news organization. Someone earlier mentioned the WSJ..even NPR. Damn, even Fox News is more moderate that these organizations.

How about the US Supreme Court?

https://youtu.be/sz4UBWbD4P8

[coolyourjets]

Originally Posted by ApS

Slo-Joe commiserates.

How about the US Supreme Court?

https://youtu.be/sz4UBWbD4P8

I’m not sure I understand your point. The Supreme Court didn’t do a study on voter fraud nor did they confirm its existence. What they did was to uphold a law, which exists in the State of Arizona, among others. As previously mentioned, each states voter laws are different and the Supreme Court upholding a law that gives the states rights to enforce their own laws has nothing to do with proving that something is a rampant problem


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[Flylady]

Originally Posted by jbolty

voter fraud is rampant in California but it's legal and they call it ballot harvesting.

From someone who lives in CA? Do you even know what their processes are? There has been a lot of investigations on this. Still waiting for the verdict!

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by tbonies

Here we go again. How many times do we have to hear the tired chest beating "I am a self made man?" The last paragraph is just arrogant icing on the cake. There but for the grace of God go I.

AGREED!

There are many SEL programs being introduced into our schools/society. Combined with these are programs for "at risk students", ESOL students and those from broken families (as well as many others).

Many (most?) of these young people read at 2-3 grade levels (or more?) below what their age might dictate. If you want to blame them for not being as good as you (M!), and not needing any help, go ahead. Not only can most of these people not negotiate their way around a simple employment contract- it's quite probable that they don't know anyone to help them do it.

And guess what????.... They are U.S. citizens!

Where's the compassion?

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Voter fraud in this country is very low. The last case was in NC in 2018.

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Agreed. Read yesterday that voter fraud is somewhere between 4 & 9 votes per 100,000. So if all Americans voted (and they don’t because some are too young and a lot don’t go to the polls) at the higher end we’d see about 27,000 fraudulent votes. Yup, a solution searching desperately for a problem!


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[ApS]

Originally Posted by coolyourjets

I’m not sure I understand your point. The Supreme Court didn’t do a study on voter fraud nor did they confirm its existence. What they did was to uphold a law, which exists in the State of Arizona, among others. As previously mentioned, each states voter laws are different and the Supreme Court upholding a law that gives the states rights to enforce their own laws has nothing to do with proving that something is a rampant problem

Arizona eliminated rampant ballot-harvesting, and inserted the much narrower "family" type collecting. Still, the SCOTUS had to pass judgment.

California, which borders Arizona, doesn't think voter-fraud is a problem.

Has there ever been a "close" election that went "R"?

Wisconsin "finds" ballots after the election:
https://conservativemedia.com/news/w...arys-campaign/

[Newbiesaukee]

2000 presidential election. Close election went R.

[Seaplane Pilot]

This speaks volumes on the importance of upholding the Constitution. The Attorney General has started to take notice of violations, especially toward religious groups.