Moultonboro assessor larceny

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

So here is my delemia, based on some investigative work, I could sell my property for something close to the assessed value..... Unfortunately how long it may take me to do so is another question entirely....

On place in my area was for sale, for 2+ years off and on, and the other was on sale for now 1+ year, and may have sold.... and a third sold within I believe 18 months..... All places have about the same amount of land, and the land is all valued roughly the same.....

Now if I look at my appraisal done this year, his price is based on selling the property within 6 Months....

This all makes my head hurt.... I was thinking of fighting my assessment, but now I am not so sure... I believe essentially I would have to prove, that I couldn't sell it for the Assessed value.... when two recent sales say I could....

Or you can cherry pick sales that are favorable to your opinion while the assessor may do the opposite. Who's "opinion" is right?

Think about it this way.... let's say your place is worth 500K FMV. The house next door is identical. If the house next to you sells after several years on the market for 1 million does that make yours worth the same? The assessor may say yes. On the flip side if the house next door were to be foreclosed and sold at auction for 250K is your place worth 250K? You KNOW the assessor would say hell no.

Just sayin....

[robmac]

well I for one will look for an hearing,due to the fact I don't have a school aged child as I did in southern NH and FL to trim my burden

[winni83]

Not having children in a town’s school system in New Hampshire is totally irrelevant in terms of your assessment or ultimate tax. But let us know if that argument gets you any relief.

[tis]

Originally Posted by winni83

Not having children in a town’s school system in New Hampshire is totally irrelevant in terms of your assessment or ultimate tax. But let us know if that argument gets you any relief.

Of course it won't. It is totally about what they think the value of the property is nothing else. That doesn't mean some of it isn't opinion though. Comparison to other equal property is the only thing that could change their assessment unless something is wrong like size or something like that.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Or you can cherry pick sales that are favorable to your opinion while the assessor may do the opposite. Who's "opinion" is right?

Think about it this way.... let's say your place is worth 500K FMV. The house next door is identical. If the house next to you sells after several years on the market for 1 million does that make yours worth the same? The assessor may say yes. On the flip side if the house next door were to be foreclosed and sold at auction for 250K is your place worth 250K? You KNOW the assessor would say hell no.

Just sayin....

Thats the issue, there is an amount of the worth of a piece of real estate that is personal opinion... The Appriaser I used, picked properties for comparison that he thought where similar.... but another appraiser may feel there where a different set "similar properties" I am far from done looking at this... but I am not so hung up on being ready to meet with the assessor.... Because I can see the argument from the other side, after looking at some data.....

Now, if other residents want to get together and go to a town meeting and object to the fact that everyone's land values went up an enormous amount, I will be there for that.

Bottom line, NH is a great minimal Tax state for people that live there, but the property tax season home owners have to deal with is unbelievably high.... I get that my property on the lake is something special.... but what about the person that just has a cabin in the woods....

[tis]

It IS a lot of opinion.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Bottom line, NH is a great minimal Tax state for people that live there, but the property tax season home owners have to deal with is unbelievably high.... I get that my property on the lake is something special.... but what about the person that just has a cabin in the woods....

The shoreline property of this lake and many others like it has long ago surpassed being affordable by a Regular Joe NH resident.

Almost every shore front owner complains about the property appraisals and the taxes... (its my 2nd home, I have no services blah blah blah) You can blame your neighbors.. the ones who sold out and cashed out... ultimately raising the value of your property to the point where it becomes unaffordable to you or your family. Then you too will sell out and cash out.

It sucks... but it has been that way for generations.

Woodsy

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

The shoreline property of this lake and many others like it has long ago surpassed being affordable by a Regular Joe NH resident.

Almost every shore front owner complains about the property appraisals and the taxes... (its my 2nd home, I have no services blah blah blah) You can blame your neighbors.. the ones who sold out and cashed out... ultimately raising the value of your property to the point where it becomes unaffordable to you or your family. Then you too will sell out and cash out.

It sucks... but it has been that way for generations.

Woodsy

The point is being missed, what we are seeing in Moultonborough isn't just about the shore front property owners. I know who and what is to blame for lake front property values.

While the lake front property values went up the most, across the board the town just increased the taxable value of every piece of property. Even the guy in the woods.... Here is the thing that is wrong with that. Should every paracel of land be worth the same amount, as long as it is the same size?

I looked at the land values for every property on the road I am on, most of which are exactly the same size. Guess what they are all the same... Now mine has no landscaping, others are highly landscaped. (none anymore are wooded)... Some are easily build able, others like mine are not With the current set back laws building on my property become difficult, as it is pie shaped. But I have the same number of feet on the water as everyone else, so my property value is the same.....

Has it always been like this yes. I remember my father objecting to the Town, back in the nineties.... Bottom line in some regards these values are being derived based false metrics.

I completely agree with the structure values that a in the report. In fact i think they have undervalued everyone house.

Bottom line, is and still is, NH is willing to screw those that are willing to invest in their state. Eventually the lake is going to become the state of the Rich, and their servants because no-one else is going to be able to afford property Taxes.....

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Bottom line, is and still is, NH is willing to screw those that are willing to invest in their state. Eventually the lake is going to become the state of the Rich, and their servants because no-one else is going to be able to afford property Taxes.....

It already is... and has been for quite some time!

The question you should be asking is how much was the valuation jump last year? The year before?

If there has been a small percentage increase each year, then this is just the town catching up to the current real estate market that suffers from low supply & high demand.

If there has been double digit percentage increases the last few years as well then the problem bears a deeper look.

Woodsy

[tis]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

It already is... and has been for quite some time!

The question you should be asking is how much was the valuation jump last year? The year before?

If there has been a small percentage increase each year, then this is just the town catching up to the current real estate market that suffers from low supply & high demand.

If there has been double digit percentage increases the last few years as well then the problem bears a deeper look.

Woodsy

They only reassess every few years, not every year-I forget how many. But it is state law they must keep them at 100% valuation.

[jeffk]

It is more complex than just a physical reassessment. They are not only doing a reassessment of 20% of the properties but also a " Statistical Update of values".

Here is a link to the town's explanation. UPDATE.

Durham NH went through a Statistical Update of values in 2018 Durham UPDATE and their property assessments went up 16% as well. A statistical assessment assesses the whole town valuation and raises the overall assessment of town property valuation to match predicted current value. It is law that NH towns must make good efforts to keep assessed values as close to market as possible so they MUST do this. AGAIN, if the whole town is valued more and the budget does not increase, the tax rate will drop and your tax payment would not change.

Further, it is not clear to me that Vision has been "replaced" with Whitney Consulting Group LLC. I think they contracted with Whitney to do the specific visitation and measure portion of the physical reassessment. So there likely is no "plot" to get a new assessor to boost values.

If you have been reassessed, validate the details carefully for accuracy. Check how much the TOWN valuation increased. If your property increased by 15% but the whole town increased 17%, you actually LOST a little value, comparatively. Watch for the town, county, and school budgets to be set and check for increases. Then wait for the tax rate to be set before you panic.

[tummyman]

Wrong....Vision is totally out of the process except the town, under a contract, is still using their property record card for this year. But the whole deal is under a new consultant....NO Vision input. And watch out for your taxes as there is no indication that town spending will offset any increase. Moultonborough is on a spending spree....ever see the BOS apply any of the unassigned free cash balance to offset tax rate increase? No, me neither. The last approach was to spend, spend, spend and not rebate any prior year overcharges that resulted in unassigned money.

If you are a lakefront property owner, most everyone saw a blanket 16.67% increase in land values....everyone. No details are available as to how this rate increase was calculated. Lots of questions.

Wishing that the tax rate will offset the increased assessments is a stretch. Never going to happen.

[Islandbum]

I wonder if businesses got hit the same. They should probably be assessed higher than homeowners. Ie the marina at end of Long Island,that yahct club near Trexlers, Trexlers themselves, and that trailer park just past them. Can’t think of any others but probably there are more.They make money off the lake and should therefore be on the hook for higher taxes. JMHO

[Islandbum]

I should of been clearer in my earlier post....referring to businesses ON the lake.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by Islandbum

I wonder if businesses got hit the same. They should probably be assessed higher than homeowners. Ie the marina at end of Long Island,that yahct club near Trexlers, Trexlers themselves, and that trailer park just past them. Can’t think of any others but probably there are more.They make money off the lake and should therefore be on the hook for higher taxes. JMHO

Just curious as to why the commercial rate should be higher than residential. Where I'm from it's always a debate - some towns have different rates while others keep the rate the same for both.

As a homeowner, I say jack up the commercial rate, but as a business owner, I say keep them the same...

You can have different rates for residential and commercial use, but cannot simply change assessments.

[Descant]

Assessing databases are online.
http://gis.vgsi.com/moultonboroughnh/
No need to "wonder if"
Let us know what you find.

[winni83]

More detailed Moultonborough information, such as property tax cards, are also on line at:

https://www.axisgis.com/moultonboroughNH/

[Islandbum]

No horse in this race.....sold up there long ago. Hoping to return for good someday tho.
But shouldn’t an entity making revenues off their waterfront pay a little more? I know commercial assessments are higher where I live now. Then again taxes here are ridiculously high on everything including income.
Maybe the assessment are the the same up there, will look thanks to both previous posts with websites.
Thanks for the input folks.

[TiltonBB]

If you want assessments to be on anything other than fair market value you would open up a big can of worms.

If you think a waterfront business should be taxed more because they make money off the lake then what other things will people think of that should affect the tax rate?

I have no kids in the school system so I should be taxed less?

I have never called the police or fire department so I should be taxed less?

My house is on an island so I get a slow response from any town services and don't require plowing so I should be taxed less?

[Descant]

Tilton BB. In a sense you are taxed less. The market value of your island home reflects the seasonal occupancy and the lack of services. If you had the same house on the mainland with comparable shorefront the assessment and the taxes wuuld be much higher. You knew that, right?

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Descant

Tilton BB. In a sense you are taxed less. The market value of your island home reflects the seasonal occupancy and the lack of services. If you had the same house on the mainland with comparable shorefront the assessment and the taxes wuuld be much higher. You knew that, right?

Yes, I do know that properties are taxed on fair market value and island properties are typically valued less than a similar property on the mainland.

A prior poster took the position that because people on certain properties made their living from the lake should be taxed more because of that.

My attempt was to point out that people could come up with any number of reasons why they should be taxed less (or more). The system that only takes into consideration the fair market value of the property seems the most equitable at this time.

[jeffk]

It seems that land that is developed as a commercial property is probably more valuable, to a point. But property tax is based on the estimated sales value of the property, not how successful the business is. We have a business profits tax for that.

[gwhite13]

I defer to the particulars but, not to long ago an estate in Moultonborough sold for several million, was only taxed for less than a single million. That may be where the crux of the issue may lay. Still love the town though.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by gwhite13

I defer to the particulars but, not to long ago an estate in Moultonborough sold for several million, was only taxed for less than a single million. That may be where the crux of the issue may lay. Still love the town though.

If there was significant land in current use, the property tax could have been low. The land could be very valuable on the market and the town will collect "Land Use Change Tax" when it comes out of current use. Alternatively, the house and a lot could have been assessed at a million and an adjacent but separate valuable parcel could have been part of the deal. Too many variables to draw conclusions.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

If you want assessments to be on anything other than fair market value you would open up a big can of worms.

If you think a waterfront business should be taxed more because they make money off the lake then what other things will people think of that should affect the tax rate?

I have no kids in the school system so I should be taxed less?

I have never called the police or fire department so I should be taxed less?

My house is on an island so I get a slow response from any town services and don't require plowing so I should be taxed less?

Tilton BB makes some good points. Fair market value and assessed value are supposed to be close. The assessor doesn’t care whether your ten kids are home schooled....or whether you only spend six months of the year here.....or any of that extraneous nonsense. Whether or not the homeowner rents his property out during the season should have no bearing on the assessment.....he will get nailed when he pays income taxes.

[tummyman]

Take a look at the video tape of the September 19th BOS meeting or the minutes from that meeting. NUMEROUS issues pointed out to the Select Board, but nothing came from it. Blind to all the issues.

[ITD]

Property tax should be eliminated and a head tax be instituted. People over 18 years old would pay the tax. Take the levy, divide it by the number of residents and that is your bill. For part time residents, cut the levy in half per person. Everyone would have the same amount of skin in the game and spending foolishness would stop.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by ITD

Property tax should be eliminated and a head tax be instituted. People over 18 years old would pay the tax. Take the levy, divide it by the number of residents and that is your bill. For part time residents, cut the levy in half per person. Everyone would have the same amount of skin in the game and spending foolishness would stop.

With a RE tax you can take the property for non payment. With a individual head tax, what do you take?


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[macbeth]

Originally Posted by ITD

Property tax should be eliminated and a head tax be instituted. People over 18 years old would pay the tax. Take the levy, divide it by the number of residents and that is your bill. For part time residents, cut the levy in half per person. Everyone would have the same amount of skin in the game and spending foolishness would stop.

That's kinda like how socialism works isn't it? Who in the right mind would want this other then people or are well off and want to save MORE money then the taxes that they seem to have atty's for to bury your money elsewhere. I can't see anyone in the REGULAR WORK FORCE wanting to pay so you can stay on your island with 3 boats and pay less for your property on the lake.

Once again this is Common Sense. Which a lot of people have none. Just as long as they are not inconvenienced, everything is OK.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by ITD

Property tax should be eliminated and a head tax be instituted. People over 18 years old would pay the tax. Take the levy, divide it by the number of residents and that is your bill. For part time residents, cut the levy in half per person. Everyone would have the same amount of skin in the game and spending foolishness would stop.

This would be a great way to transfer a big chunk of the burden from older, wealthier people to younger less wealthy people with kids.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by ITD

Property tax should be eliminated and a head tax be instituted. People over 18 years old would pay the tax. Take the levy, divide it by the number of residents and that is your bill. For part time residents, cut the levy in half per person. Everyone would have the same amount of skin in the game and spending foolishness would stop.

It’s unrealistic to expect the elimination of the property tax, BUT it’s unfair, in my opinion. I think that non-resident taxpayers should have some say in the local government since they’re paying a substantial amount of the expenses, and the locals capitalize on that when they’re making demands (gym, rec center, bus for rec dept., etc.). Our primary residence is here, although we are not here for almost half the year, but we don’t expect to have our taxes cut by half. Being here or not is a personal choice, and should not result in a 50% tax cut ( I would not turn it down, however! ��) Also, if you want to reduce non-resident taxes, why not apply that to part-time residents who own MA property on Cape Cod, Nantucket, Martha’s Vineyard? After all, let’s be fair!

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by ITD

Property tax should be eliminated and a head tax be instituted. People over 18 years old would pay the tax. Take the levy, divide it by the number of residents and that is your bill. For part time residents, cut the levy in half per person. Everyone would have the same amount of skin in the game and spending foolishness would stop.

Sounds like the Three-fifths Compromise in reverse- good to be less than a person!

Surprised FLL didn't pick up on this- being from the "down and out" side.

[tis]

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a slogan popularised by Karl Marx in his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program. The principle refers to free access to and distribution of goods, capital and services. In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance of goods and services that a developed communist system will be capable to produce.

[ITD]

I'm not seeing the socialism connection with the idea, but it does seem like a more equitable distribution of the burden. Progressive tax plans are more in line with socialism. Don't like the 1/2 payment for the seasonal residents, make it 1 1/2 times then. The point is everybody feels the effect of stupid spending.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by ITD

I'm not seeing the socialism connection with the idea, but it does seem like a more equitable distribution of the burden. Progressive tax plans are more in line with socialism. Don't like the 1/2 payment for the seasonal residents, make it 1 1/2 times then. The point is everybody feels the effect of stupid spending.

I agree with you on your point that “everybody feels the effects of stupid spending.” After that, your argument falls apart. If you own property in NH, you need to pony up 12 months of taxes each year, whether or not you are here for 6 months, 1 month, or 1 day....even 0 days. If I owned property in MA, I would expect to do the same.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

I agree with you on your point that “everybody feels the effects of stupid spending.” After that, your argument falls apart. If you own property in NH, you need to pony up 12 months of taxes each year, whether or not you are here for 6 months, 1 month, or 1 day....even 0 days. If I owned property in MA, I would expect to do the same.

My latest version changed it to 18 months of tax in a year for the part time residents.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by ITD

My latest version changed it to 18 months of tax in a year for the part time residents.

This discussion is going nowhere fast. Several facts: 1) if you own real estate, you pay property taxes; 2) if you’re a non-resident taxpayer, you cannot vote there, and this applies everywhere, to my knowledge ; 3) if you can prove personal income is not adequate to pay taxes, you might receive some relief from that town. Other than that, anyone owning property in any state needs to pay 100% of the tax bill. Owning property is a choice, and how many weeks or months you stay there is also a choice. We own property out of state, and we pay the taxes (also condo fees), and don’t vote. We also don’t complain about it because it was our choice to do what we did. This whole discussion is different from the wasteful town expenditure one, and the voters need to tackle that with town officials and at the voting booth.

[tbonies]

Originally Posted by ITD

Property tax should be eliminated and a head tax be instituted. People over 18 years old would pay the tax. Take the levy, divide it by the number of residents and that is your bill. For part time residents, cut the levy in half per person. Everyone would have the same amount of skin in the game and spending foolishness would stop.

Surprise surprise. A rich dude recommending a regressive tax. Such a lazy and tired post.


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[ITD]

Originally Posted by tbonies

Surprise surprise. A rich dude recommending a regressive tax. Such a lazy and tired post.


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Talk about a lazy tired post, make a point other than ad hominem.