No Wake

[Hillcountry]

Deleted due to YouTube problem...sorry

[JEEPONLY]

Not too long ago i heard Mike Baxter say to his wife, "Gee, I was afraid our relationship was devolving into meaningless banter". Does art imitate life?

[Woodsy]

Hillcountry...

Thanks for taking the time to post the videos! I see no issues with your 6MPH wake.... kind of amazing how big it gets at 10MPH.

Woodsy

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Hillcountry...

Thanks for taking the time to post the videos! I see no issues with your 6MPH wake.... kind of amazing how big it gets at 10MPH.

Woodsy

Yes...other than all that “white foamy stuff” which a MP officer may or may not approve of! I don’t go anywhere near that fast in a NWZ...even at 4:30 am coming out of the channel.
On a side note, returning from fishing around 11am we witnessed 2 boats in a row blasting between Eagle and Governor’s on full plane...

[kawishiwi]

The cruiser that threw a big wake at me Sunday was far enough away that I didnt really consider what it could throw. The only reason I was able to adjust was that the wake started breaking 80 ft away from me so that I heard it coming.

[Cal Coon]

This thread is giving me a popsicle headache!!! When it comes time for me to enter a no wake zone, I utilize the "kiss" method. Since I don't have a gps on board, and my speedometer doesn't move till you are doing about 10 or 15, I have figured out EXACTLY what rpm's my boat makes NO wake at, (1200) and that's where I put it every time. 1200 rpm's - no wake, no looking back, no white, no foam, no yelling, no problem, and I have NO idea how fast I'm going. Doesn't matter... Keep it simple, stupid. Amazing how "things" get so complicated...

[tis]

Originally Posted by Cal Coon

This thread is giving me a popsicle headache!!! When it comes time for me to enter a no wake zone, I utilize the "kiss" method. Since I don't have a gps on board, and my speedometer doesn't move till you are doing about 10 or 15, I have figured out EXACTLY what rpm's my boat makes NO wake at, (1200) and that's where I put it every time. 1200 rpm's, no wake, no white, no yelling, and I have NO idea how fast I'm going. Doesn't matter... Keep it simple, stupid.

Well, you are right. Speed doesn't matter, the wake you are making is what matters!!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Cal Coon

This thread is giving me a popsicle headache!!! When it comes time for me to enter a no wake zone, I utilize the "kiss" method. Since I don't have a gps on board, and my speedometer doesn't move till you are doing about 10 or 15, I have figured out EXACTLY what rpm's my boat makes NO wake at, (1200) and that's where I put it every time. 1200 rpm's - no wake, no looking back, no white, no foam, no yelling, no problem, and I have NO idea how fast I'm going. Doesn't matter... Keep it simple, stupid. Amazing how "things" get so complicated...

That's a really good approach if you don't an accurate way to measure speed.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Hillcountry

Deleted due to YouTube problem...sorry

I saw them before they were deleted. That hull speed equation is only for mono-hull boats, multi-hull boats like yours are not the same because of the way the bow waves interact between the hulls. My 25 foot mono-hull makes a huge wake at 10 MPH. You can see it in the link below, taken on the Champlain Canal, where the speed limit is 10 ans there's no safe passage law. Bear in mind too, that the close confines and shallow water also increase the wake intensity.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...4&l=bb72d1767b

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I saw them before they were deleted. That hull speed equation is only for mono-hull boats, multi-hull boats like yours are not the same because of the way the bow waves interact between the hulls. My 25 foot mono-hull makes a huge wake at 10 MPH. You can see it in the link below, taken on the Champlain Canal, where the speed limit is 10 ans there's no safe passage law. Bear in mind too, that the close confines and shallow water also increase the wake intensity.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...4&l=bb72d1767b

I have a 22' 24 rise mono hull. I can do the same, maybe more at 10 mph. At idle, my boat is going 6.2 GPS mph in no wind or current situation, yet I create enough of a ripple to actually have an LEO telling me to slow down!
At this speed the boat wanders left and right as there are no chines.
When passing through the channel a decade ago, an LEO pulled me over for 3 things: Shifting in and out (because the traffic is slower than idle speed), wandering left and right, and a wake he feels was too high!
After a safety, registration and sobriety check, he let me off with a warning and a note to my boat mechanic to fix the boat! WTH!

[Orion]

Seems like we have this exact same discussion every couple of years with the threads having all the same arguments. I'm not linking to the old thread because i don't want to revive them, but clearly there is confusion so the law must be "confusing" and needs to be re-written. Of course, there will always be those that are ignorant of the law no matter how clear it could be written. So, there will be waves, there will be idiots, and hopefully we can just relax and have another beer and enjoy the show.

[joey2665]

To me it always comes down to common sense and respect for the shore line and other people's property. I do not think the law is confusing at all many looks for ways around the law, but for what... to go 8 mph instead of 6. Your not getting where you need to go that much faster. Relax and enjoy your on the lake

[SAMIAM]

Very often on the ICW in Florida we meet up with 80' to 100" boats traveling at 10 to 20 mph. Some of them throw up wakes over 4' that can really cause problems if you don't handle them right. I have seen times in a narrow channel that I've actually done a 180 and fled to avoid a huge wake.
I cross them at a 45 degree angle....if you drive straight into them you're likely to bury your bow in the trough.
Wasn't much of a problem on our lakes until the wakeboard boats showed up. Some of them produce the kind of wakes that BearIslander was talking about. Actually can be dangerous. I have nothing against them, just saying that everyone is responsible for their wake and operators should be considerate.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Orion

Seems like we have this exact same discussion every couple of years with the threads having all the same arguments. I'm not linking to the old thread because i don't want to revive them, but clearly there is confusion so the law must be "confusing" and needs to be re-written. Of course, there will always be those that are ignorant of the law no matter how clear it could be written. So, there will be waves, there will be idiots, and hopefully we can just relax and have another beer and enjoy the show.

NH RSA Section 270-D:1 - Definitions

I. "Boat" means every description of watercraft other than seaplanes, capable of being used or used as a means of transportation on the water and which is primarily used for noncommercial purposes, or leased, rented, loaned or chartered to another for such use.

VI. "Headway speed" means 6 miles per hour or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way.

VIII. "No wake area" means an area where a boat is to be operated only at headway speed.

Headway speed is defined as 6MPH... so you can legally go up to 6MPH in a NWZ. The clause "or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way." is there for when the conditions are such that you have to EXCEED 6MPH... due to current, tide, etc...

This is not Rocket Science!

Woodsy

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

NH RSA Section 270-D:1 - Definitions

I. "Boat" means every description of watercraft other than seaplanes, capable of being used or used as a means of transportation on the water and which is primarily used for noncommercial purposes, or leased, rented, loaned or chartered to another for such use.

VI. "Headway speed" means 6 miles per hour or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way.

VIII. "No wake area" means an area where a boat is to be operated only at headway speed.

Headway speed is defined as 6MPH... so you can legally go up to 6MPH in a NWZ. The clause "or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintaining steerage way." is there for when the conditions are such that you have to EXCEED 6MPH... due to current, tide, etc...

This is not Rocket Science!

Woodsy

Obviously, you interpret the law your way and others, another way.
Like others have said...what’s the damned hurry?
Your logic is flawed but you can’t see it. So be it!

[Woodsy]

Hillcountry...

Actually, my logic is not flawed at all.... It is not my fault you don't understand the law or its intent. Unfortunately it is your reasoning/logic that is wrong. But please feel free to consult a lawyer... I did!

Let me explain.....

A law has to be well defined and absolute it cannot be subjective. So, if you look at the RSA that defines what "Headway Speed" is, there is number that defines "Headway Speed"... 6MPH. (its not just there for no reason) So just like every other type of speed limit there is a number clearly defined by law! (so the MP can write you a ticket) The clause "or or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way." is designed so that you can EXCEED 6MPH if the conditions warrant it (tides/currents etc). EX: Weirs Channel during the spring runoff and the Lakeport Dam is wide open. IF you are going with the current of say 5MPH... you need to go faster than 5MPH to maintain steerage of your boat, otherwise your stern gets pushed sideways. IF you are going against the current, you have to go faster than 5MPH to overcome the current and move forward thru the channel. Going with the current produces little or no wake even though you are actually going thru the channel at close to 10MPH... going against the current produces a HUGE wake even though you are only moving thru the channel at 5MPH!

Woodsy

[Descant]

I agree with Woodsy. The law was rewritten not so many years ago to cover the high speed of the current/tide in areas of the seacoast. It was not written just for Lake Winnipesaukee, or Opeechee, etc.
On a windy day as you come out from the Weirs bridge, headed north, you often have to increase throttle (not speed) to maintain steerage. Same applies northbound coming out from under the Governor's Island Bridge. However, again on a windy day, the wind is such that your wake is broken up into the wind driven waves and is not noticeable.

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Hillcountry...

Actually, my logic is not flawed at all.... It is not my fault you don't understand the law or its intent. Unfortunately it is your reasoning/logic that is wrong. But please feel free to consult a lawyer... I did!

Let me explain.....

A law has to be well defined and absolute it cannot be subjective. So, if you look at the RSA that defines what "Headway Speed" is, there is number that defines "Headway Speed"... 6MPH. (its not just there for no reason) So just like every other type of speed limit there is a number clearly defined by law! (so the MP can write you a ticket) The clause "or or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way." is designed so that you can EXCEED 6MPH if the conditions warrant it (tides/currents etc). EX: Weirs Channel during the spring runoff and the Lakeport Dam is wide open. IF you are going with the current of say 5MPH... you need to go faster than 5MPH to maintain steerage of your boat, otherwise your stern gets pushed sideways. IF you are going against the current, you have to go faster than 5MPH to overcome the current and move forward thru the channel. Going with the current produces little or no wake even though you are actually going thru the channel at close to 10MPH... going against the current produces a HUGE wake even though you are only moving thru the channel at 5MPH!

Woodsy

I understand what you are saying. Differing opinions is all...
My point is this: Just because “the law” says you can go 6 mph doesn’t mean you should. The channel has a fast current in very early season when they’re letting the lake come to it’s Spring level. Very few boaters are out when this condition is prevalent save a few early fishermen and work boats perhaps.
There are most likely, very few boats in slips at this time and most marinas are just getting ready for the upcoming season. My marina doesn’t even valet until mid-May...long after the current has settled down.
My main concern is during the boating season 6mph is overkill for traversing a NWZ. That’s it! That’s all I care about. My video plainly, showed that although the wake thrown by my toon was minimal, the speed and prop wash would be significant overkill for a NWZ. Common courtesy to all dictates a much slower headway speed.

[KPW]

It should be as simple as, no wake means no waves. If you are in a no wake zone and you are making waves, then you are breaking the law.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by KPW

It should be as simple as, no wake means no waves. If you are in a no wake zone and you are making waves, then you are breaking the law.

That doesn't work.... every boat has a different speed where it makes a noticeable wake, it is also very subjective and would likely not hold up in court. See my explanation above


Woodsy

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

That doesn't work.... every boat has a different speed where it makes a noticeable wake, it is also very subjective and would likely not hold up in court. See my explanation above





Woodsy

I don’t think you understand him. He’s saying it is not the speed, it’s the wake wave. If you are making a wake, slow down. Your boat won’t make a wake at idle no matter what speed that is. You’re apparently saying you don’t care the repercussions, you’re going to go the maximum speed allowed by law.

Sounds like it must be all about you. Sad way to go thru life.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Woodsy]

Bigguy...


This is where you are wrong.... different hull designs throw wakes at different speeds. Also, at dead slow, different boats travel at different speeds. I had a Donzi 22 that idled at 7.5MPH and threw a wake doing so.

So while HillCountry can idle thru the Weirs Channel at 3MPH in his pontoon, the guy behind him idles at 4.5MPH. The guy behind him idles at 5MPH. So what you end up with is a traffic jam as the 2 guys behind HillCountry shift in and out of gear trying to hold position in winds and currents.

That being said... There is ALWAYS a wake when you push an object thru the water. ALWAYS. It just depends if it is visible or not, and then if it is visible, how big is it? But now you are crossing into opinion and subjectivity. The only way to truly control this is to use speed as it is an absolute. You are going to fast, or you are not going to fast... black & white.

In the NH RSA's... the 1st State law clearly defines "Headway Speed" as 6MPH. The law does not differentiate between Lake or Ocean. It is no different than the 70MPH highway speed limit or the 45 MPH daytime speed limit on the lake. Exceed the speed limit, possibly get a ticket. However, the State also realized that in some instances on the water you would need to EXCEED the 6MPH and they wrote a provision for that.

The State then defines a "No Wake Zone" as an area where you are required to go "Headway Speed". Given that "Headway Speed" is clearly defined as 6MPH... you are allowed up to 6MPH in a "No Wake Zone".

It is very simple! I am not saying anyone HAS to go 6MPH... I am just saying you are ALLOWED to go 6MPH.

Now if the State would just relabel the NWZ's to Headway Speed Zones... the confusion would be gone.

Woodsy

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Bigguy...


This is where you are wrong.... different hull designs throw wakes at different speeds. Also, at dead slow, different boats travel at different speeds. I had a Donzi 22 that idled at 7.5MPH and threw a wake doing so.

So while HillCountry can idle thru the Weirs Channel at 3MPH in his pontoon, the guy behind him idles at 4.5MPH. The guy behind him idles at 5MPH. So what you end up with is a traffic jam as the 2 guys behind HillCountry shift in and out of gear trying to hold position in winds and currents.

That being said... There is ALWAYS a wake when you push an object thru the water. ALWAYS. It just depends if it is visible or not, and then if it is visible, how big is it? But now you are crossing into opinion and subjectivity. The only way to truly control this is to use speed as it is an absolute. You are going to fast, or you are not going to fast... black & white.

In the NH RSA's... the 1st State law clearly defines "Headway Speed" as 6MPH. The law does not differentiate between Lake or Ocean. It is no different than the 70MPH highway speed limit or the 45 MPH daytime speed limit on the lake. Exceed the speed limit, possibly get a ticket. However, the State also realized that in some instances on the water you would need to EXCEED the 6MPH and they wrote a provision for that.

The State then defines a "No Wake Zone" as an area where you are required to go "Headway Speed". Given that "Headway Speed" is clearly defined as 6MPH... you are allowed up to 6MPH in a "No Wake Zone".

It is very simple! I am not saying anyone HAS to go 6MPH... I am just saying you are ALLOWED to go 6MPH.

Now if the State would just relabel the NWZ's to Headway Speed Zones... the confusion would be gone.

Woodsy

And while they are at it, change the black spars to green!

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

And while they are at it, change the black spars to green!

Perhaps we should consider changing the ATON system completely... but thats another argument!

Woodsy

[noreast]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

And while they are at it, change the black spars to green!

My vote is fluorescent yellow.

[jazzman]

I've always been confused if the law means no more than 6 mph or slower if you can control the boat. My 16 foot center console will go straight in idle at less than 1mph.

[tis]

Originally Posted by jazzman

I've always been confused if the law means no more than 6 mph or slower if you can control the boat. My 16 foot center console will go straight in idle at less than 1mph.

Why are you confused? It says: 6 MPH or the slowest speed. " 6 miles per hour or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way." I can't see how that can mean anything else. What am I missing?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Bigguy...This is where you are wrong.... different hull designs throw wakes at different speeds. Also, at dead slow, different boats travel at different speeds. I had a Donzi 22 that idled at 7.5MPH and threw a wake doing so. So while HillCountry can idle thru the Weirs Channel at 3MPH in his pontoon, the guy behind him idles at 4.5MPH. The guy behind him idles at 5MPH. So what you end up with is a traffic jam as the 2 guys behind HillCountry shift in and out of gear trying to hold position in winds and currents. That being said... There is ALWAYS a wake when you push an object thru the water. ALWAYS. It just depends if it is visible or not, and then if it is visible, how big is it? But now you are crossing into opinion and subjectivity. The only way to truly control this is to use speed as it is an absolute. You are going to fast, or you are not going to fast... black & white. In the NH RSA's... the 1st State law clearly defines "Headway Speed" as 6MPH. The law does not differentiate between Lake or Ocean. It is no different than the 70MPH highway speed limit or the 45 MPH daytime speed limit on the lake. Exceed the speed limit, possibly get a ticket. However, the State also realized that in some instances on the water you would need to EXCEED the 6MPH and they wrote a provision for that. The State then defines a "No Wake Zone" as an area where you are required to go "Headway Speed". Given that "Headway Speed" is clearly defined as 6MPH... you are allowed up to 6MPH in a "No Wake Zone". It is very simple! I am not saying anyone HAS to go 6MPH... I am just saying you are ALLOWED to go 6MPH. Now if the State would just relabel the NWZ's to Headway Speed Zones... the confusion would be gone. Woodsy

I have a standard shift vehicle, so traffic jams could be a greater headache; therefore, what's worked is to adopt the technique to allow a greater space to the cars ahead of me (and coast, where I can, in neutral). Sure, some drivers will jump in front of me, but those caught in the same traffic jam are not going to get there noticeably faster by doing so.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Perhaps we should consider changing the ATON system completely... but thats another argument! Woodsy

ATON markers cost thousands each, and are moved by weaker sea ice. OTOH, they make a gratifying sound when struck by drunk or impaired ocean-racers.

Originally Posted by VitaBene

And while they are at it, change the black spars to green!

Those with color-blindness are still granted drivers licenses. When you can't see markers, consider going slower.

Originally Posted by jr616

I am always wondering . . . Where the hell are you going in such a rush? Boating on the Big Lake is meant to be enjoyable for ALL. Slow down when asked to do so the extra 2 minutes may just give you a chance to take in the scenery and relax.

Suggesting that Woodsy set his alarm for an earlier hour, or make a bridle and tow a bucket or a sea anchor?

Originally Posted by Rusty

To some shore front owners it's like a tsunami that caused a seismic like wave.

A seismometer would record that cruiser's thunder-clap wake. It may not record that my piling dock has just shuddered.

[tis]

At least Woodsy, now I can see how you are interpreting it, even though you are wrong. The spirit of the law is not meant to be 6 MPH hell and be damned. It is NO WAKE. And because you are so stubborn and insist you will make a wake in a NO WAKE zone because you choose to go 6MPH, no matter what, I honestly hope you get caught and get a ticket. You deserve it.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by tis

At least Woodsy, now I can see how you are interpreting it, even though you are wrong. The spirit of the law is not meant to be 6 MPH hell and be damned. It is NO WAKE. And because you are so stubborn and insist you will make a wake in a NO WAKE zone because you choose to go 6MPH, no matter what, I honestly hope you get caught and get a ticket. You deserve it.

It is not my fault your brain cannot understand the law.... but leave it to an idiot to wish ill on someone else in a dispute. This is just like a 20MPH School Zone... You are allowed 20MPH... doesn't mean you have to go 20MPH. It just means the cops can't ticket you unless you EXCEED 20MPH. I will go thru the NWZ at whatever speed the boat traffic is traveling. If there is no traffic I will go thru the NWZ at 5 - 5.5MPH and I will have my GPS on so as not to exceed 6MPH. If the MP stop me, so what? I will win the argument and be sent on my way.

The legal definitions are CLEAR.

For the record... Years ago (18?) I had a Donzi 22 Classic that idled @ 7.5MPH on GPS... guess who won the dispute? I will give you a hint... it wasn't the MP. I won on the "slowest and maintain steerage" clause in the law.

Woodsy

[Rusty]

Below is a forum thread that was posted some years back that might help:

I am posting an email sent to Marine Patrol seeking clarification on rules governing speed in "No Wake" zones, followed by the reply from Lieutenant Timothy Dunleavy. (He has provided his consent to reproduction of the email trail in this forum.) I found Lt. Dunleavy's reply to be both interesting and informative.u

Glove

__________________________________________________ ______________

Thu, June 17, 2010 9:19:47 AM
Subject: Clarification on "no wake rules"
From: Lake Citizen
To: marinepatrol@dos.nh.gov


Dear Marine Patrol:

I am writing seeking clarification of the New Hampshire laws pertaining to No Wake zones. I first started by researching the question, "what is a wake -- 4 inches, 6 inches, 8 inches?" But I then determined that New Hampshire law makes very clear that the speed allowed in a "No Wake" zone is headway speed...in other words headway speed and "no wake speed" are synonomous.

TITLE XXII
NAVIGATION; HARBORS; COAST SURVEY
CHAPTER 270-D
BOATING AND WATER SAFETY ON NEW HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC WATERS
Section 270-D:1
270-D:1 Definitions. – In this chapter:


VI. "Headway speed" means 6 miles per hour or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way.

VIII. "No wake area" means an area where a boat is to be operated only at headway speed.



But believe it or not, I am seeking information on interpretation of the word "or" in the headway speed definition.

I can understand that for very large boats that cannot maintain steerage at less than 6 mph, they may have to travel at 7 or 8 mph to maintain steerage...but they should operate at the slowest speed above 6 mph that allows for steerage. (In other words, they select the second option: "slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way.")

But the real question is what about tiny boats that can easily maintain steerage at extremely slow speeds? For example, a 12 foot jon boat with a motor on the back can maintain steerage at 1 mph. So in this case, is headway speed considered 1 mph (i.e. slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage"), or is headway speed considered any speed less than 6 mph? Based on the NH law, it appears that in the case of the jon boat, law abiding citizens may choose between the two options of :

6 miles per hour
OR
the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way

In other words, the jon boat can choose to travel at 6 mph (even if it creates a 4 inch "wake"). Is this correct?

Thank you in advance for taking the time to address this question.

Sincerely,
Lake_Citizen


__________________________________________________ ______________

Sat, June 19, 2010 9:52:43 AM
Subject: Headway Speed/No Wake
From: "Dunleavy, Timothy"
To: lake_citizen


Lake Citizen,

Thank you for your inquiry.

Your research is accurate as to the definitions you cite. To clarify your question, I’ll offer you some history behind the law change that took effect in 1995. The “old” language stated, headway speed was the slowest speed that the boat could be operated and maintain steerage way, “but which does not exceed 6 miles per hour.”

In the early 1990’s Marine Patrol began patrolling our seacoast. It was recognized by our officers that the tidal currents in the state’s coastal rivers often exceeded 6 mph and therefore safe steerage for a vessel fighting the current would need to exceed the limits of the law.

As a result the law was changed to its current language. Local Judges have accepted and recognize the intent of the law and therefore the application of the “slowest speed necessary…” is the portion of the definition that our officers most often use in their application of the law.

To try and answer your question specifically as it applies to a 12’ jon boat (your example). The officer would look at several things when considering a boat stop for a violation. They would include the existing water conditions, the boat’s wake, how much faster than necessary they are travelling, is the attitude of the bow “lifting” vs. flat, speed and size of other vessels in the immediate area, etc. I believe that a common sense application of these concepts by any boat operator will keep them safe and legal.

If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me at Marine Patrol Headquarters or by phone at the number listed below.

Safe Boating!!

Tim

Timothy C. Dunleavy
Lieutenant,
New Hampshire Marine Patrol
31 Dock Rd.
Gilford, NH 03249
Ph. 603-293-2037
Fax 603-293-0096
https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...41&postcount=1

[iw8surf]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

It is not my fault your brain cannot understand the law.... but leave it to an idiot to wish ill on someone else in a dispute. This is just like a 20MPH School Zone... You are allowed 20MPH... doesn't mean you have to go 20MPH. It just means the cops can't ticket you unless you EXCEED 20MPH. I will go thru the NWZ at whatever speed the boat traffic is traveling. If there is no traffic I will go thru the NWZ at 5 - 5.5MPH and I will have my GPS on so as not to exceed 6MPH. If the MP stop me, so what? I will win the argument and be sent on my way.

The legal definitions are CLEAR.

For the record... Years ago (18?) I had a Donzi 22 Classic that idled @ 7.5MPH on GPS... guess who won the dispute? I will give you a hint... it wasn't the MP. I won on the "slowest and maintain steerage" clause in the law.

Woodsy

My big bad scary wave making wakeboard machine that everyone hates idles with out the slightest ripple at 7.5MPH. I have always found V drives to idle at higher speeds. I never care to look at the speedometer, put the boat in gear and that speed is the speed I travel in the NWZ.

[tis]

Local Judges have accepted and recognize the intent of the law and therefore the application of the “slowest speed necessary…” is the portion of the definition that our officers most often use in their application of the law.


I supposed you still know more than the Captain of our Marine Patrol, Woodsy?

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ApS

ATON markers cost thousands each, and are moved by weaker sea ice. OTOH, they make a gratifying sound when struck by drunk or impaired ocean-racers.


Those with color-blindness are still granted drivers licenses. When you can't see markers, consider going slower.

You think black markers are adequate at night? If so, you are as crazy as every one of your inane posts!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

You think black markers are adequate at night? If so, you are as crazy as every one of your inane posts!

Some days, sun and water conditions make none of the markers particularly noticeable; however, the NH navigation marking-system has seen a very high years-long endurance for what—eighty-plus years? (None appear on my 1909 Lake Winnipesaukee chart).

Why, suddenly, can markers not be seen?

Why is greater support seen here for night-time controls on "activity"?

Are we hearing from one of the male population that is colorblind—8%?

Let a woman drive: their colorblindness is only 1% of the population.

Ever notice how easy night navigation is when shoreline lights are not present?

Artificial light (aboard) can take away one's night vision for many minutes.

When you can't see markers, my advice is to become familiar at slow speeds in daylight, and especially slow down at night.

.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ApS

Some days, sun and water conditions make none of the markers particularly noticeable; however, the NH navigation marking-system has seen a very high years-long endurance for what—eighty-plus years? (None appear on my 1909 Lake Winnipesaukee chart).

Why, suddenly, can markers not be seen?

Why is greater support seen here for night-time controls on "activity"?

Are we hearing from one of the male population that is colorblind—8%?

Let a woman drive: their colorblindness is only 1% of the population.

Ever notice how easy night navigation is when shoreline lights are not present?

Artificial light (aboard) can take away one's night vision for many minutes.

When you can't see markers, my advice is to become familiar at slow speeds in daylight, and especially slow down at night.

.

My vision is perfectly good. Black markers have been a subject of complaint here for many years. I always boat at a speed suitable for the conditions- whether they be lighting or weather.

[noreast]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

My vision is perfectly good. Black markers have been a subject of complaint here for many years. I always boat at a speed suitable for the conditions- whether they be lighting or weather.

Exactly, And the worst argument for anything is because it's always been that way. I think we can come up with an unlimited list of things that have been improved.

[Not to Worry]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

You think black markers are adequate at night? If so, you are as crazy as every one of your inane posts!

I love the forum for the information it provides about the lake. I hate the forum when it gets petty and attacks people for their opinions. I try not to post often for that reason because regardless of what I say someone will pounce on that and attack the person versus the opinion.

I am sure we all do it at times with the false courage of anonymity.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Not to Worry

I love the forum for the information it provides about the lake. I hate the forum when it gets petty and attacks people for their opinions. I try not to post often for that reason because regardless of what I say someone will pounce on that and attack the person versus the opinion.

I am sure we all do it at times with the false courage of anonymity.

APS and I have had differing opinions on many boating related topics dating back to the speed limit debate. I am certainly not the only one that takes issue with his parsed, taken out of context, often inane posts!

I am hardly anonymous- you can find my name and phone number on any number of posts on this forum!

[Descant]

Back to 'TIS original post. The jetski that started this thread, I think we can agree, deserved a ticket. Like Troopers on the highway, MP can't ticket every offender. But for repeat offenders there's special consideration: From RSA 270-D:2
XI. Any conviction under this section shall be reported to the commissioner of the department of safety, division of motor vehicles, and shall become a part of the motor vehicle driving record of the person convicted.
I believe this applies to all speed limits, and convictions not just 45 mph on Winni.

Life's little embarrassments:
"So your insurance went up $1000? How come?"
"Speeding tickets"
"Wow! How fast were you going?"
"8 mph. The insurance hit me really hard because it was more than 30% over the limit."

[tis]

Woodsy wrote:

The State then defines a "No Wake Zone" as an area where you are required to go "Headway Speed". Given that "Headway Speed" is clearly defined as 6MPH... you are allowed up to 6MPH in a "No Wake Zone".

But you OMITTED the most important part. "OR THE SLOWEST SPEED THAT A BOAT CAN BE OPERATED AND MAINTAIN STEERAGE WAY".


VI."Headway speed" means 6 miles per hour or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way.

VIII. "No wake area" means an area where a boat is to be operated only at headway speed.


So if you are in a no wake area you operate at headway speed and headway speed is defined as 6 MPH OR the slowest speed that a boat can be operated.

I don't see why you can't understand that!!!!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by tis

So if you are in a no wake area you operate at headway speed and headway speed is defined as 6 MPH OR the slowest speed that a boat can be operated.

I don't see why you can't understand that!!!!

Regardless of what is meant by the last part of the definition of headway speed, the word "OR" in there, without the term "whichever is slower", clearly means you have the choice of 6 MPH OR the slowest speed the boat can be operated.

If you were offered 6 million dollars OR the least amount of money you could barely survive on, which would you choose?

[tis]

DaveR. Thank you for enlightening me. I never took it as a "choice" of one or the other. Of course that's not the way it is meant to be interpreted but at least I can understand now.

[Cal Coon]

I said in an earlier post that I set my boat at 1200 rpm's for a no wake zone. The reason I went with 1200 rpm's is because it's the FASTEST my boat will go without making a wake!!! I don't care what the mph are, and I don't care what the "law" says. I'm going through all nwz as fast as possible without "making waves", and I have NEVER been pulled over for too big of a wake. What is so hard to understand about this?? I don't even pay attn to the mph in a nwz, I pay attn to my wake, and I really don't think MP cares about speed in a nwz as long as you have NO WAKE. I'm pretty sure all they care about is your WAKE, not your speed. Just go through nwz as fast as you can WITH NO WAKE, unless there is a strong wind or current going against you that you HAVE to power through. Pretty simple rule of thumb. I realize when you are in a "congested" channel, and you are at the mercy of the boat(s) in front of you, that changes everything. Sometimes you have to shift into and out of gear if they are crawling along, or they are going as fast as their boat will go without making a wake! Just common sense, really. Not complicated at all...

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by tis

Woodsy wrote:

The State then defines a "No Wake Zone" as an area where you are required to go "Headway Speed". Given that "Headway Speed" is clearly defined as 6MPH... you are allowed up to 6MPH in a "No Wake Zone".

But you OMITTED the most important part. "OR THE SLOWEST SPEED THAT A BOAT CAN BE OPERATED AND MAINTAIN STEERAGE WAY".


VI."Headway speed" means 6 miles per hour or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way.

VIII. "No wake area" means an area where a boat is to be operated only at headway speed.


So if you are in a no wake area you operate at headway speed and headway speed is defined as 6 MPH OR the slowest speed that a boat can be operated.

I don't see why you can't understand that!!!!

Tis.... I explained this.... you are not going to EVER get it because your mind is made up.

The Devil is in the details.... the wording of the RSA is "6MPH or the slowest speed needed to maintain steerage" This wording makes 6MPH the PRIMARY rule, the phrasing "or slowest speed possible" is the secondary rule that is there for conditions where you would have to exceed 6MPH. I listed some examples above.

Now had the the law just been phrased "slowest speed possible to maintain steerage"... you would be correct. But because the slowest speed possible to maintain steerage is different for every boat, the NH Legislature saw fit to to include the 6MPH wording as most boats have no problem maintaining steerage at 6MPH in the majority of conditions. That 6MPH defines the law!

I cannot explain it any simpler!

Woodsy

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by KPW

It should be as simple as, no wake means no waves. If you are in a no wake zone and you are making waves, then you are breaking the law.

Amen!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Woodsy]

Hillcounty...

First, you are making excuses (not many boaters) because you are thinking this only applies to Winni... this happens every day at the mouth of Piscataqua and other places. This why the law is written the way it is.

Second.. You have people here whining about boats in a NWZ that are probably not breaking ANY laws whatsoever. The law is clear and people should really have an understanding of the law before they go bitching about it.

Third.. Every boat idles in gear at a different speed... (also another reason for a 6MPH limit) so while you might think 6MPH is excessive, because YOUR pontoon boat idles nicely at 3MPH, somebody behind you in the NWZ might think 3MPH is too slow because they idle 5MPH. So what? No big deal right? They are constantly shifting in and out of gear, struggling to maintain steerage. I won't get into the boat traffic backup a single boat going 2-3MPH in the Weirs Channel can cause on a busy weekend.

So while I do believe in common courtesy & respect... that goes both ways! If nobody is behind you go as slow as you want. If there are others behind you go pick up the pace a little. (don't exceed 6MPH) What speed dead slow is for your boat, might not be the same for the poor guy behind you.

Woodsy

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Hillcounty...

First, you are making excuses (not many boaters) because you are thinking this only applies to Winni... this happens every day at the mouth of Piscataqua and other places. This why the law is written the way it is.

Second.. You have people here whining about boats in a NWZ that are probably not breaking ANY laws whatsoever. The law is clear and people should really have an understanding of the law before they go bitching about it.

Third.. Every boat idles in gear at a different speed... (also another reason for a 6MPH limit) so while you might think 6MPH is excessive, because YOUR pontoon boat idles nicely at 3MPH, somebody behind you in the NWZ might think 3MPH is too slow because they idle 5MPH. So what? No big deal right? They are constantly shifting in and out of gear, struggling to maintain steerage. I won't get into the boat traffic backup a single boat going 2-3MPH in the Weirs Channel can cause on a busy weekend.

So while I do believe in common courtesy & respect... that goes both ways! If nobody is behind you go as slow as you want. If there are others behind you go pick up the pace a little. (don't exceed 6MPH) What speed dead slow is for your boat, might not be the same for the poor guy behind you.

Woodsy

Oh come on...! The mouths of rivers where they meet the ocean tides are dangerous and hazardous waterways...anyone who has navigated the mouth of the Merrimac River knows this! Oranges and apples to our little, placid in comparison, Winnipesaukee!

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Hillcountry

Oh come on...! The mouths of rivers where they meet the ocean tides are dangerous and hazardous waterways...anyone who has navigated the mouth of the Merrimac River knows this! Oranges and apples to our little, placid in comparison, Winnipesaukee!

Yes... but the LAW applies to both!

Now for some hard numbers.... the Weirs Channel is approx 3/4 mile long (3960ft) Look at these transit times...

@ 2MPH = 22.5 mins
@ 3MPH = 15 mins
@ 4MPH = 11.25 mins
@ 5MPH = 9 mins

The difference between 3MPH & 5 MPH is only 6 mins. No big deal right? Now add more & more boats piling up behind, having to stop & shift in and out of gear like every other traffic jam... and it quickly becomes a SNAFU. Just like when a slow car is in the right lane on the highway.

Woodsy

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Hillcounty...

First, you are making excuses (not many boaters) because you are thinking this only applies to Winni... this happens every day at the mouth of Piscataqua and other places. This why the law is written the way it is.

Second.. You have people here whining about boats in a NWZ that are probably not breaking ANY laws whatsoever. The law is clear and people should really have an understanding of the law before they go bitching about it.

Third.. Every boat idles in gear at a different speed... (also another reason for a 6MPH limit) so while you might think 6MPH is excessive, because YOUR pontoon boat idles nicely at 3MPH, somebody behind you in the NWZ might think 3MPH is too slow because they idle 5MPH. So what? No big deal right? They are constantly shifting in and out of gear, struggling to maintain steerage. I won't get into the boat traffic backup a single boat going 2-3MPH in the Weirs Channel can cause on a busy weekend.

So while I do believe in common courtesy & respect... that goes both ways! If nobody is behind you go as slow as you want. If there are others behind you go pick up the pace a little. (don't exceed 6MPH) What speed dead slow is for your boat, might not be the same for the poor guy behind you.

Woodsy

I am aware of people struggling both astern and ahead of me and I adjust accordingly.

[tis]

Obviously, you interpret the law your way and others, another way.
Like others have said...what’s the damned hurry?
Your logic is flawed but you can’t see it. So be it! ( Quote was from Hllcountry.)

I couldn't thank you for this, because I had used up my thanks. But you are right. Woodsy for some reason just can't understand that NO WAKE means no wake. He says he has talked to a lawyer, I wonder why he doesn't talk to Marine Patrol and see what they say. Because of all these discussions that keep coming up, I DID talk to Capt. Dunleavey and he said No Wake is no wake not a certain speed. The law was basically written including the 6 MPH limit for the ocean where there are currents and it is necessary to go 6 MPH. He said they have been challenged and gone to court and the judge upholds the officers and the tickets stand. In the past I have seen MPs stop people for a wake that surprised me that they would be stopped for. So what do you say, Woodsy, how about talking to the Capt.? Or would you still not believe?

[jr616]

I am always wondering . . . Where the hell are you going in such a rush?

Boating on the Big Lake is meant to be enjoyable for ALL. Slow down when asked to do so the extra 2 minutes may just give you a chance to take in the scenery and relax.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Hillcountry...

Actually, my logic is not flawed at all.... It is not my fault you don't understand the law or its intent. Unfortunately it is your reasoning/logic that is wrong. But please feel free to consult a lawyer... I did!

Let me explain.....

A law has to be well defined and absolute it cannot be subjective. So, if you look at the RSA that defines what "Headway Speed" is, there is number that defines "Headway Speed"... 6MPH. (its not just there for no reason) So just like every other type of speed limit there is a number clearly defined by law! (so the MP can write you a ticket) The clause "or or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way." is designed so that you can EXCEED 6MPH if the conditions warrant it (tides/currents etc). EX: Weirs Channel during the spring runoff and the Lakeport Dam is wide open. IF you are going with the current of say 5MPH... you need to go faster than 5MPH to maintain steerage of your boat, otherwise your stern gets pushed sideways. IF you are going against the current, you have to go faster than 5MPH to overcome the current and move forward thru the channel. Going with the current produces little or no wake even though you are actually going thru the channel at close to 10MPH... going against the current produces a HUGE wake even though you are only moving thru the channel at 5MPH!

Woodsy

It's crystal clear to me Woodsy. I think the hang-up is that people interpret this in a way that they think if you can maintain steerage at any speed slower than 6mph, then that's the speed you're supposed to go. In other words, if you can maintain steerage and control of the vessel at 1mph, then they believe that's the law. But I do not believe that this is the intent or spirit of the law.

[8gv]

Waaaay back when I went to a USCG Auxiliary course as a kid I remember being taught that the captain is responsible for his vessel’s wake.

Is that on the books as a law in NH?

[Orion]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

It's crystal clear to me Woodsy. I think the hang-up is that people interpret this in a way that they think if you can maintain steerage at any speed slower than 6mph, then that's the speed you're supposed to go. In other words, if you can maintain steerage and control of the vessel at 1mph, then they believe that's the law. But I do not believe that this is the intent or spirit of the law.

Yep, that, by definition, means the law is CONFUSING. i.e., it's not clear to all. Even if I do agree with Woodsy's definition, it could be interpreted as above. And, apparently, the MP do not subscribe to Woodsy's interpretation.