Boat Sinking?????

Grady223 · 04-26-2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senter Cove Guy

It's been almost three years. Do you or the owner of the boat know what really caused the boat to sink? Have you or the owner seen the MP report? I'm still curious as are many others.
Thanks.

That is persistence SCG!

Wolfeboro_Baja · 04-26-2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grady223

That is persistence SCG!

Inquiring minds want to know!!!

VtSteve · 04-27-2010, 06:50 AM

Unless you get a copy of the report, I doubt you'll ever hear anything. Skip said the report would be freely available if you don't remove it from the building. I don't know if he ever got a chance to read it or not.

You will never hear anything from someone with a shattered ego after an experience like that. I'm quite sure many, many people saw the boat after it was reclaimed from the bottom.

LIforrelaxin · 04-27-2010, 08:15 AM

Let me just say this.... what does it really matter what happened. What matter, is that the capt got everyone off the boat and everyone was rescued, That is the bottom line.

Now because of insurance, and blame, and fault, etc, etc, etc, and expensive operation was undertaken to recover the boat from over 100 feet off water... in my mind that boat could have just been left. There wasn't enough gas or oil to worry about poisoning the lake it would of slow dispersed to the top of the lake and evaporated.

But the boat was raised, and was hauled off for investigation, the investigation was done and reports where written. Now if the results where anything but weather, of operator error, or some fluke accident I am sure there would have been note worthy new reports. If Cobalt had a defective hull, or Thurston's Service dept. had made a mistake the reports and gossip would have run wild, they didn't....

My guess, is that something totally innocent happened that day out of the control of the capt of the vessel, that cause water entry...a bellows tear, a hull fitting not properly sealed that finally reached a critical point. The problems are numerous.

The bottom line is this... the investigation probably showed that it was a series of issues that lead to the problem, that no one entity was the culprit, and unfortunately, an accident occurred.

Let all hope that if something like that happens to any one of use, that we are able to keep are cool and keep everyone safe.

lawn psycho · 04-27-2010, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Let me just say this.... what does it really matter what happened. What matter, is that the capt got everyone off the boat and everyone was rescued, That is the bottom line.

Now because of insurance, and blame, and fault, etc, etc, etc, and expensive operation was undertaken to recover the boat from over 100 feet off water... in my mind that boat could have just been left. There wasn't enough gas or oil to worry about poisoning the lake it would of slow dispersed to the top of the lake and evaporated.

But the boat was raised, and was hauled off for investigation, the investigation was done and reports where written. Now if the results where anything but weather, of operator error, or some fluke accident I am sure there would have been note worthy new reports. If Cobalt had a defective hull, or Thurston's Service dept. had made a mistake the reports and gossip would have run wild, they didn't....

My guess, is that something totally innocent happened that day out of the control of the capt of the vessel, that cause water entry...a bellows tear, a hull fitting not properly sealed that finally reached a critical point. The problems are numerous.

The bottom line is this... the investigation probably showed that it was a series of issues that lead to the problem, that no one entity was the culprit, and unfortunately, an accident occurred.

Let all hope that if something like that happens to any one of use, that we are able to keep are cool and keep everyone safe.

After I read this thread I sent and email to Four Winns asking about bouyancy (22 ft boat). The basically said they only guarantee positive bouyancy equal to the weight listed on the plate. If you get swamped and exceed it, down she goes.......

VitaBene · 04-27-2010, 12:09 PM

I'm sorry but I will be shocked if it was not operator error. I think that BR scooped water. I can't believe that short of the outdrive falling off leaving a huge hole that any other opening (transducer) etc would overcome the bilge pump.

If there is a lesson to be learned- trim up (just a few degrees) and keep your bow cover on when the weather gets rough. That open bow creates a giant scoop.

Rattlesnake Guy · 04-27-2010, 06:10 PM

I am glad she was raised for selfish reasons. The spot where the oil and gas would float to was about perfectly in the prevailing wind line with my water line. I am hardly a tree hugger but not sure I would have enjoyed being in the evaporation / slick zone.

Mee-n-Mac · 04-27-2010, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I'm sorry but I will be shocked if it was not operator error. I think that BR scooped water. I can't believe that short of the outdrive falling off leaving a huge hole that any other opening (transducer) etc would overcome the bilge pump.

If there is a lesson to be learned- trim up (just a few degrees) and keep your bow cover on when the weather gets rough. That open bow creates a giant scoop.

A broken hose where the water being pumped gets into the engine compartment instead of the engine will overcome most bilge pumps.

Just Sold · 04-27-2010, 07:48 PM

Sunset Bob, Island Girl and I were there for the Cobalt raising and the fluids, if they leaked, from the boat should have gone past RG's water line pick up had the boat not been raised.
SB accompanied the MP to the sand bar near W. Alton Marine where they pumped the Coblat out and continued onto the MP Headquarters.

VtSteve · 04-27-2010, 09:57 PM

So I assume the Cobalt was towed back to HQ? Some witnesses know what happened, or more accurately, what did not happen.

As for the rest?
The term "Catastrophic" is usually used for insurance cases of this type, which is probably why is was repeated by two people here, and a third that had no idea what she was talking about.

boat_guy64 · 04-27-2010, 11:57 PM

I’ve always wanted to write what happened that day. I’ve hesitated because it wasn’t my boat and I was just a passenger. I also hoped that someone would read the MP report, report on it and then I could say what I wanted to say without being scrutinized by the people that are sure they know what happened or heard from a friend of a friend of a friend that there was nothing wrong at all with the boat. The last thing that I want to do is argue, debate or have to defend my view in this forum. If you don’t believe me, go spend the $2 to get the MP report and come to your own conclusion.

That said. I feel that it may be worthwhile to share what happened. I’m an electrical engineer and not a marine surveyor or a marine mechanic so excuse my lack of in depth knowledge.

The day the boat came up was beautiful. It was a warm September day with no wind on the broads. We hung out at the scene all day until MP took control of the boat and towed it back to MP headquarters at about 9:30pm that evening.

The boat sank in rough conditions on September 1. That day, Seatow was hired to find and recover the boat. They searched for about two weeks and never found it. It seems that Seatow and the people helping them just didn’t have the required equipment to find a boat that was 138 feet below the surface. They did the best they could with the equipment they had. MP was always available to control traffic and was helpful in the entire process. On September 13, as documented in post 159, a third party came in with commercial grade side scan sonar and found it in about two hours. They held the coordinates of the boat secret until a payment was agreed to by the insurance company.

The boat was raised by Seatow as documented in pictures and video that members of the forum documented here on the forum. The boat was then towed to the Alton Sand Bar to finish the job of raising it and the towed away by Marine Patrol.

Marine Patrol had their Marine Surveyors look at the boat. They found no physical issues with the boat. As a last test, they put it back in the water. After some time they noticed that the boat was leaking and taking on water back near the outdrive unit. They included pictures of the leak in the report but my copy isn’t clear so I can’t see the exact location of the leak. At this time they secured the boat and watched it continue to take on water. Then, they began to wonder why the bilge pump was not running. They determined that the bilge pump would only run if the battery switch was in the “both battery” position. That is not the position that it was in and not the position that it should ever be in. You never want one battery to go bad and take out the other battery. They didn’t state the root cause so I don’t know if it was mis-wired or a defective switch. At this point they took the boat out of the water and concluded their investigation.

So what do I think? I think that with many accidents, several things went wrong simultaneously to make that boat sink.

1. The boat leaked and as we were driving, it was slowing took on water.
2. The bilge pump never ran.
3. With the boat gaining weight and being heavy, we took on waves.

I think that it took all three things to make that boat sink.. By the time that we noticed the hull being heavy, we could have made it to Rattlesnake if not for the waves. If the bilge pump worked, it probably would have kept up with the leak. No leak and none of the other factors would have mattered.

The captain was in control of at all times. The boat is rated for 15 passengers. We had 8 and 6 of them were in the 100 pound range. (I can’t say the same for myself  ) We had many life jackets on the boat and had them on at the first sign of trouble.
Thanks to our rescuers and the people of Rattlesnake Island that offered up docks, facilities and guidance to the location of the boat. We were lucky that day but we were also prepared. I’ve logged hundreds of hours on Winnipesaukee before and after this accident. You need to respect the lake and be prepared. I’ll say that my level of preparedness was always good but now it is even better.

ApS · 04-28-2010, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boat_guy64

"...So what do I think? I think that with many accidents, several things went wrong simultaneously to make that boat sink.

1. The boat leaked and as we were driving, it was slowing took on water.
2. The bilge pump never ran.
3. With the boat gaining weight and being heavy, we took on waves.

'Zackly what happened to my former boss on a nice sunny day in the Gulf Stream with a borrowed 40-foot Sport Fisherman.

A small opening had been previously enlarged by a marine mechanic to install new steering gear near the transom. In reverse (while fighting a big fish) they failed to notice the boat was taking on water. Far from shore, it was only when the engines stopped—and floorboards were floating—that they became aware there was a problem.

The Coast Guard appeared promptly enough, but a silly procedural delay ensued in getting a portable pump aboard the stricken craft. A short time later, the attempt by the Coast Guard to tow the boat resulted in the towline parting—then "glug" went the Sport Fisherman into 80-feet of water.

BTW I: A storm in 2005/2006 was called at "60-MPH" winds by poster DRH in West Alton. Looking out at the lake just a few miles away, I didn't see three-foot waves—or any waves at all!

All I could see was a huge sheet of white spray across two square miles of Lake Winnipesaukee.

BTW II: This Cobalt could appear for sale—advertised:

Quote:

"Fresh water use only".

LIforrelaxin · 04-28-2010, 09:02 AM

Boat Guy 64,

I want to thank you for putting the information out there. The truth is always good to know. I am glad to know that the proper investigation was completed, and the true root cause was found. As an electrical engineer, I am dam disappointed that the wiring on the boat, even has the possibility of being miswired like that. Hopefully Cobalt has since redesigned there wiring for a dual battery set-up.

I hope that your friend has continued to boat as well and that this Mishap hasn't discouraged him away from boating. This indeed could have happened to any of us.

Accidents happen folks....Even in a Colbalt.....

sa meredith · 04-28-2010, 10:09 AM

Thanks, boatguy64, for the story of what happened. I just can't imagine what it must have been like the second you all realized the boat was indeed going down. Must have caused some sleepless nights.
As an aside...I'm curious about something, and would welcome advise from anyone...
We always run the boat with the battery switch on "Both", yet you stated that is not the correct way to operate. Are you certain? I guess I just never ask anyone...just the way I was taught after the switch was installed. Maybe I just assumed...

OCDACTIVE · 04-28-2010, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Thanks, boatguy64, for the story of what happened. I just can't imagine what it must have been like the second you all realized the boat was indeed going down. Must have caused some sleepless nights.
As an aside...I'm curious about something, and would welcome advise from anyone...
We always run the boat with the battery switch on "Both", yet you stated that is not the correct way to operate. Are you certain? I guess I just never ask anyone...just the way I was taught after the switch was installed. Maybe I just assumed...

This all depends on the boat and its set up actually. I personally run mine on one only. This way if after a day rafting or if there is a charging problem you have the second to start. Also in some boats there is a battery specifically for starting and one for sitting. Normally this is done when there are battery "banks" for overnight and larger power draws over time and / or larger engines that need a bigger boost.

There was actually a good article in the last Powerboat Mag. edition that talks specifically about this.

So to answer your question.... it all depends. sorry for being so vague.

Mee-n-Mac · 04-28-2010, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Boat Guy 64,

I want to thank you for putting the information out there. The truth is always good to know. I am glad to know that the proper investigation was completed, and the true root cause was found. As an electrical engineer, I am dam disappointed that the wiring on the boat, even has the possibility of being miswired like that. Hopefully Cobalt has since redesigned there wiring for a dual battery set-up.

I hope that your friend has continued to boat as well and that this Mishap hasn't discouraged him away from boating. This indeed could have happened to any of us.

Accidents happen folks....Even in a Colbalt.....

As a general rule I thought the bilge pump was supposed to be wired to one of the batteries, no switch (other than the float) involved. I suppose you could wire to both batteries via an "isolator" (aka diodes) but I've yet to see that done. I don't know what happened in this case but let me suggest a few possibilities.

First lets assume a leak of some kind is filling the bilge and engine compartment. Seems to the case given what we've heard. Now lets say the pump is wired to one of the batteries and the boat is switched to, and running off, the other battery. So why doesn't the bilge pump "work" ? Well perhaps it did and that batttery ran until it was dead. Now the water comes in unabated and the boat goes down. The pump won't run until the battery switch is set to "both". Why ? What's happening is the voltage is now being sent from the good battery through the switch to the terminal of the bad battery. While the bad battery loads the circuit down, the good is strong enough to run the pump. Alternately the connection between the clamp and the (bilge pump) battery terminal could have been corroded or even disconnected. The end result is the same, the pump wouldn't run until the switch was set to "both".

As for proper operation of the switch ... as OCD said it depends. I run off 1 battery one day and then the other the next day, cycling so as to charge both. If I'm making a long run I'll switch to "both" to charge both batteries but I try to remember to switch back to "off" (or just 1 battery) when I'm done so I can't kill/drain both batteries while on the hook or at the dock. Really the best thing to do is get an automatic charging relay (ACR) and let it do the switching. The ACR disconnects the secondary batt when the engine is off. When the engine is on and the voltage is "high", a relay connects the secondary battery so it get's charged as well. If you run all your "accessories" off the secondary battery then the ACR will prevent you from draining the main, starting battery whilst listening to tunes at the sandbar.

What this thread has reminded me to do is to get a bilge pump alert that let's me know if the pump is on, or has been on in my absence. And ideally for how long. And mebbe I should make a relay circuit to switch the pump(s) from battery #1 to battery #2 if #1 ever goes dead for some reason. Might as well give the pump(s) every opportunity to save the boat ... if needed.

trfour · 04-29-2010, 12:00 AM

I only forgot to put the transom plug in once, and just beached it...

Thank God I was close to home!... Ya,I know I could have gassed her up all day and stayed afloat, but that would have put a huge cramp in my get along!

What a Twerp!

Disclaimer, I water test with the engine cover UP...

I'm 66, so no big thing, been there done that, but still very lucky to be here. And also, I think God has had something to do with this as well...

I will go away now!

Terry
_____________________________________

Dave R · 04-29-2010, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

What this thread has reminded me to do is to get a bilge pump alert that let's me know if the pump is on, or has been on in my absence. And ideally for how long. And mebbe I should make a relay circuit to switch the pump(s) from battery #1 to battery #2 if #1 ever goes dead for some reason. Might as well give the pump(s) every opportunity to save the boat ... if needed.

I have not modified my bilge pump circuit, but I did make a change to my raw water washdown that might appeal to you and could help save the boat. I added a three-way valve between the through-hull seacock and the pump inlet so that I can draw water from the bilge rather than the seacock, with just a flip of a lever. I did it mostly to make Winterizing easy, but having a backup bilge pump may come in handy some day, though I hope not...

LIforrelaxin · 04-29-2010, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

As a general rule I thought the bilge pump was supposed to be wired to one of the batteries, no switch (other than the float) involved. I suppose you could wire to both batteries via an "isolator" (aka diodes) but I've yet to see that done.

I think the problem is that the idea of the bilge pump being hooked directly to the battery is just that a general rule. There is no regulation. Probably a suggest by the NMMA, but no hard set fast rule.

And of course now float switches are the norm, some people remember the days when they where not. And depending on who does the wire diagram for the boat if they don't think about thing properly... you can have no automatic bilge pump at all.

Yankee · 04-27-2010, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I'm sorry but I will be shocked if it was not operator error. I think that BR scooped water. I can't believe that short of the outdrive falling off leaving a huge hole that any other opening (transducer) etc would overcome the bilge pump.

If there is a lesson to be learned- trim up (just a few degrees) and keep your bow cover on when the weather gets rough. That open bow creates a giant scoop.

To preface, I grew up on this lake and also spent several years living in Michigan and boated on the big water of all the Great Lakes except Superior. All in my measely 22ft Formula. It's not the size of the boat that is the problem in this case. Winni, contrary to many folk's opinion, is not a big lake. As in all circumstances, it is up to the Captain of the boat to make the right decisions and the most important of these includes mating his choice of craft in which to ply the waters with his experience and seamanship.

Having said that, I also believe that the captain of this boat stuffed the bow into a wave that flooded and consequently caused the boat to go down...I admit that this is purely speculation on my part.

For the record I do not believe that Cobalt is capable of a producing a structural defect that would cause one of it's boats to sink. A Bayliner maybe, not a Cobalt

IMHO, the captain kept his nose into the wind and had a wave come over the bow. And short of a maintenance issue, I believe that this was the cause of sinking. If he was travelling in the opposite direction, my experience tells me that a boat of this size in rough water couldn't go fast enough and then back down on the throttle in those conditions to take that amount of water over the rear of the boat to cause it to flood.

IMHO, bowwriders and big waves do not mix well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that having an open bow is a bad idea in rough water.

codeman671 · 04-28-2010, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I'm sorry but I will be shocked if it was not operator error. I think that BR scooped water. I can't believe that short of the outdrive falling off leaving a huge hole that any other opening (transducer) etc would overcome the bilge pump.

If there is a lesson to be learned- trim up (just a few degrees) and keep your bow cover on when the weather gets rough. That open bow creates a giant scoop.

Ever launch a boat without the plug in it? Trust me, they fill VERY quickly. I made the mistake once in a 20' Ebbtide at the Wolfeboro town docks. We barely got it back on the trailer. The engine compartment filled extremely fast from just a drain plug hole. It does not take long, and the bilge pump was not keeping up.

My point is, it does not take a large hole.

NoBozo · 04-28-2010, 01:06 PM

I haven't had a battery Master Switch since I had my cabin boats.. you know, the ones that has bunks, you can sleep aboard, has cabin lights, stereo, ship to shore VHF radio, etc.

The master switch usually has Four positions. #1 battery, #2 battery, OFF, and BOTH. When the engine is running, the battery the switch is set to, will be On Line meaning it will be charging. If Both is set, both battery's will charge at the same time. When I was underway under power (It was a sailboat) I was always On BOTH Battery's to take advantage of the engine charging both battery's.

When I shut the engine off to SAIL, I would switch the Master Switch over to a single battery. It will take quite awhile to run a battery down using just a VHF, sailing instruments, and maybe the stereo.

Something to ponder..and I'm sure it will confuse those not familiar with how some stuff works. A friend of mine had a '79 Ferrari 308 GTS. It had carburetters Vs Electronic Fuel Injection. The alternator was kapoot and would NOT charge the battery or do anything else. It's location in front of, and down under the engine made it almost imposable to remove. So it had to be done by a professional with the proper tools..most importantly a LIFT, which he did not have.

Cash was not readily available at the time, for various reasons. This did NOT mean the car could not be driven. It was just an occasional Sunday Driver anyhow.

He would routinely take the car out for an entire Sunday ride...with NO functioning Alternator. ONLY the battery was there for electricity for Ignition and anything else. You could start the engine any number of times, and then Drive It ALL DAY On The Battery Alone....say 150-200 miles..Rhode Island down to Connecticut and back. The only catch was don't use the headlights or radio. No one with a Ferrari uses the radio anyway.

If the car had had Electronic Fuel Injection requireing electrical power, it might have been a different story.

My current 20 foot runaboat with a 350 V8 does not have a battery switch... just one battery which I have replaced twice in 14 years.. last.. just last summer. The bilge pump is always set to Automatic and is Always connected to the battery...UNLESS I accidently "bump" the dashboard toggle switch to OFF.

NB

Wolfeboro_Baja · 04-29-2010, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

He would routinely take the car out for an entire Sunday ride...with NO functioning Alternator. ONLY the battery was there for electricity for Ignition and anything else. You could start the engine any number of times, and then Drive It ALL DAY On The Battery Alone....say 150-200 miles..Rhode Island down to Connecticut and back. The only catch was don't use the headlights or radio. No one with a Ferrari uses the radio anyway.

If the car had had Electronic Fuel Injection requireing electrical power, it might have been a different story.

Going back to the Ferrari question for a moment, I'm certainly not an expert but the Ferrari may have had a magneto ignition. Magnetos generate their own electricity to fire spark plugs so as long as the battery was in good enough condition to start the engine a few times (assuming they would make some occasional stops during their Sunday drive) and they didn't run any other electrical systems (radio, lights, etc.), the magneto would have taken care of the ignition system.

Magnetos are still in use today; remember what provides the spark for your basic chainsaw, lawn mower, weed wacker, etc., etc.? As a matter of fact, NHRA Funny Car and Top Fuel engines still use twin magnetos to fire 2 spark plugs per cylinder. How else would they be able to make 8,000 HP??

Regarding the discussion on battery switches, my Outlaw has twin batteries with a switch with positions labeled Batt #1, Batt #2, Both and Off. If memory serves me correctly, there's a label on the switch that says do NOT run the engine with the switch set to Both (something about frying the alternator or regulator). I also know for a fact that when I'm towing to the lake after a rainy week and I go up a hill, the bilge pump will come on if there's enough rain water collected and pump it out; the switch is set to Off when the boat is on the trailer. I have yet to figure out in what conditions I would use the switch set to Both. Any ideas?

NoBozo · 04-29-2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

Going back to the Ferrari question for a moment, I'm certainly not an expert but the Ferrari may have had a magneto ignition. Magnetos generate their own electricity to fire spark plugs so as long as the battery was in good enough condition to start the engine a few times (assuming they would make some occasional stops during their Sunday drive) and they didn't run any other electrical systems (radio, lights, etc.), the magneto would have taken care of the ignition system.

Any ideas?

Yes Baha. I have ideas. Ferrari's do not have magnetos. I believe General Aviation Aircraft DO...but that is another topic.

The '79 Ferrari 308 GTS was the last 308 to have carburetters. Four Weber two barrels. The HP rating was 230 HP. Picture Magnum...PI. After that the cars went to Fuel Injection....the HP went down to 205......the environment and whatnot.

BTW: If you Turn OFF the electrical system in a General Aviation Aircraft..say a Cessna 172, The engine will continue to run. You will not have radios or anything else ...but you will have the engine. This happened to me on my "Long Solo Cross Country".

Early gasoline engines were Battery Ignition. Generators hadn't been invented yet. ..............NB

jrc · 04-29-2010, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

... I have yet to figure out in what conditions I would use the switch set to Both. Any ideas?

A lot of boats only charge the battery that is on. So if you put the switch to "1" then battery #1 starts the boat, runs the engine and is charged by the alternator. In this case battery #2 in not used but also not being charged.

If you switch to "2" it's exactly the opposite. So if stop at the sandbar and run your radio all day and kill one battery the other will get you home.

Now if you get to the boat and batteries are a little weak from sitting too long, you can select "both" to get more cranking current and start the boat. You can also leave it on "both" to charge both batteries. But if you forget and leave it on "both" and go to the sandbar, run your radio, you drain both batteries. If you use enough current you could be stranded.

When I had this setup, I used "1" on Saturday and "2" on Sunday. That way both batteries got a charge every weekend and I avoided the risky "both"

Finally don't use "off" while the engine is running, on most boats it will instantly fry the alternator diodes and a possibly damage your electronics like stereos and GPS.

Grady223 · 05-03-2010, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

A lot of boats only charge the battery that is on. So if you put the switch to "1" then battery #1 starts the boat, runs the engine and is charged by the alternator. In this case battery #2 in not used but also not being charged.

If you switch to "2" it's exactly the opposite. So if stop at the sandbar and run your radio all day and kill one battery the other will get you home.

Now if you get to the boat and batteries are a little weak from sitting too long, you can select "both" to get more cranking current and start the boat. You can also leave it on "both" to charge both batteries. But if you forget and leave it on "both" and go to the sandbar, run your radio, you drain both batteries. If you use enough current you could be stranded.

When I had this setup, I used "1" on Saturday and "2" on Sunday. That way both batteries got a charge every weekend and I avoided the risky "both"

Finally don't use "off" while the engine is running, on most boats it will instantly fry the alternator diodes and a possibly damage your electronics like stereos and GPS.

And, don't leave it set to both, neither will charge and you could damage the alternator

sugatam · 05-03-2010, 12:47 PM

Is it true that when in a whaler you don't have to worry about getting swamped? My friend was telling me that a fully swamped whaler would still float and run like normal, and not sink or become prone to rolling over. If true, why don't more manufacturers build in enough positive flotation into their hulls?

jrc · 05-03-2010, 02:44 PM

Grady - That's not how my previous boat, with 1,2,both ,off switch worked. Both position would charge both batteries.

Sugatam - All boats under a certain size need positive flotation. On larger boats, the only way to get positive flotation would be to fill usuable areas, like cabins, closets and bathrooms with styrofoam. Most people would rather have the interior space.

Grady223 · 05-03-2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

Grady - That's not how my previous boat, with 1,2,both ,off switch worked. Both position would charge both batteries.

Sugatam - All boats under a certain size need positive flotation. On larger boats, the only way to get positive flotation would be to fill usuable areas, like cabins, closets and bathrooms with styrofoam. Most people would rather have the interior space.

My engine is a 250 Yamaha 2 stroke. It came with a warning not to use both at the same time as it would damage the alternator. If you had an I/O perhaps the alternator is more powerful.

Wolfeboro_Baja · 05-03-2010, 03:06 PM

Thank you JRC and Grady for your responses.

JRC, we do the same thing you mentioned about alternating battery usage each time we go out. For us, it's a little more difficult to remember which battery we used last since we tow our boat to the lake and usually only one day a week (usually Sunday, occasionally Saturday).

So it sounds like the only time I should use the "Both" position is when neither battery is strong enough to crank the engine by itself. And assuming it starts on "Both", I should switch back to battery 1 or 2 as quickly as possible WITHOUT hitting the "OFF" position. I may have to ask a Mercruiser mechanic the next time I'm at Channel Marine.

Kerk · 05-03-2010, 04:13 PM

I drove my first car home with No battery in it ! Ran off the generator. Took the 6 volt battery out of the ford 8 N tractor and started the car. I wrapped a rag around the cables. Returned the battery to the tractor and put it away. Drove the 32 Ford home with no registration or plates ! Did not get caught till my father found out !! Things were different in 52! Kerk

NoBozo · 05-03-2010, 07:32 PM

When the battery switch is set to BOTH.....BOTH Batterys WILL charge at the same time while the engine is running. There will be NO Damage to the alternator.

I can't speak for a two stroke as that infers an outboard. I have no recent experience with electrical systems in outboards.

NB

Airwaves · 05-03-2010, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Sugatam

Quote:

Is it true that when in a whaler you don't have to worry about getting swamped? My friend was telling me that a fully swamped whaler would still float and run like normal, and not sink or become prone to rolling over. If true, why don't more manufacturers build in enough positive flotation into their hulls?

I don't know if a Whaler over 19 feet will do that or not. Whaler's website shows a 19 foot model overloaded and swamped and they claim to install two and a half times the floation required by law. Federal law requires boats up to 19 feet with greater than 2hp engines to meet certain floatation requirements, but 20 feet and above no floatation is needed, so chances are if you have a 22 foot bowrider that swamps and the pump can't keep up, then it's going down. The reason is pretty $imple!

Grady223 · 05-04-2010, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

When the battery switch is set to BOTH.....BOTH Batterys WILL charge at the same time while the engine is running. There will be NO Damage to the alternator.

I can't speak for a two stroke as that infers an outboard. I have no recent experience with electrical systems in outboards.

NB

It is a Yamaha outboard, I'll go by their warning in the manual.

OCDACTIVE · 05-04-2010, 08:09 AM

each boat, depending on year, type, set up etc. (too many variables) can have different electrical set ups. So although operating on "both" may inevidebly be bad for one type may be fine for another.

You hit the nail on the head, definately go with whatever your manual or manufactorer says.

NoBozo · 04-28-2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

Ever launch a boat without the plug in it? Trust me, they fill VERY quickly. I made the mistake once in a 20' Ebbtide at the Wolfeboro town docks. We barely got it back on the trailer. The engine compartment filled extremely fast from just a drain plug hole. It does not take long, and the bilge pump was not keeping up.

My point is, it does not take a large hole.

This is true. Shortly after I got my current 20' runabout, I forgot the plug. I got the boat back on the trailer without sinking.. Bilge Pump WAS running on Automatic. When I got home I got out my textbooks to see if I could calculate HOW Long it would have taken the boat to sink IF the Pump had NOT been running. The time was something like NINE Minutes...to sink with water coming in from just one... One Inch diameter drain hole.

NB

OCDACTIVE · 04-28-2010, 01:29 PM

NB, interesting story on the Ferrari.. I am not an electric engineer so I couldn't explain why that would work but from my limited experience I have seen that there are many different ways these systems (car or boat) over the years have been set up.

As an example, as many may recall, you could run your car or boat without the battery at all. You could start a boat just by jumping it off a battery or another boat and as long as the engine was running you were fine. However 2 years ago I found out the hard way that on newer boats the circuits are set up a bit different. I was out on my 17 foot runabout. The boat was going perfectly and then just stopped. I checked everything and couldn't figure it out. I thought the way it simply shut off that there was a fuel pump problem.

After getting towed back and checking everything I noticed the battery connections were a bit corroded. Never would I think that this was the problem but thought it was best to clean them regardless.... Guess what! that was it. Somehow if the ciruit was broken (due to the corrossion) on the battery terminals the boat would not run.

Needless to say I now keep them very clean and keep a wire brush in my tool box.

robmac · 04-28-2010, 02:16 PM

In my experience,engines with electronic ignitions( non points distributors ) you will need a good connection to keep the engine running. With EFI you will have some sort of controler weather a PCM,ECM etc.,those systems you need more than 12 volts,generally closer to 13.2 to run at optimal performance. As a Kid I remember running on just an altenator no battery,you won't get away with that on todays vehicles.

VtSteve · 04-28-2010, 02:39 PM

Like others have stated, thanks for the follow-up. Interesting battery setup, I know some boats actually run like this for charging, but I think it depends on the switch itself. I was going to do two batteries, until I became confused over the choices and setups.

Hard to say what was leaking and when. Possibly something was damaged when it hit the lake bottom? Who knows when it occurred. Might have been a leak near the outdrive not being properly sealed, any number of things. This is the best ending to a nearly tragic story. Everyone was rescued and nobody was hurt.

Has the boat's owner had it with boating, or did he get back up on the horse?

NoBozo · 04-28-2010, 04:38 PM

Something to consider. We all know that when the battery is dead (for whatever reason) we can Jump Start the car with another car, or battery and you are good to go as long as you don't shut off the engine UNTIL.... you have allowed the alternator enough time to RE Charge the battery. This assumes that the alternator was not the problem in the first place, and the battery just went dead because you left the lights on.

If the battery is OLD, and will no longer "hold a charge".. and is deemed Useless, you can still drive the car..... "on the alternator".. as long as you jump start the car every time. Even though the battery is useless for starting the car.. it is Still IN The Circuit.

If you were to remove the battery from the Circuit while the engine is running, and the alternator is making power as it is, you will have broken the Circuit and I think you may be at Great RISK of damaging (Frying) the alternator. The battery, even though dead, acts like a Surge Protector...and completes the Circuit. Nobody FIXES Alternators, so you replace it even if it only has a cooked Diode.

In the case of the Ferrari, the BAD alternator was Left IN the Circuit. In a different case where the Battery is BAD, or Just Dead, The BAD battery should be left in place, connected, providing a complete Circuit.

OBVIOUSLY, in either case you are going to Replace the bad part VERY SOON.

If you feel left out reading this.. NOT TO WORRY: Today's engines in boats and cars are pretty much Well Beyond the capability of even those of us who used to work on our own stuff. No more self taught "Mechanics" who could actually FIX something. Today we have "Technicians" who have to go to school at great expense, where they learn how to hook up a computer to the engine to Diagnose the problem...... then replace the defective part in it's entirety.

My boat is a 1986 with an Old GM 350 V8, ...a Real Carburetor, a Real Distributer, Real Ignition Coil, Real Spark Plug Wires. I Can.... and Do.. work on my own boat. NB
--------------------------------------------

DAM: I really got carried away this time. My wife sometimes tells me to STIFLE when I start getting technical. Time for an Adult Beverage.

POP QUIZ Tomorrow at 10:00.

Rattlesnake Guy · 04-28-2010, 04:52 PM

It may seem strange but if you drive the boat with the plug out it will actually drain. ( No I did not see this on the three stooges) My dad used to do it on our boat which did not have a bilge to drain the rain water out. The water behind creates a vacuum if you are moving. And if that does not work, just drill more holes to let the water out...

Also keep in mind that if you blow a cooling hose you can pump even more gallons per minute into the boat by keeping the boat running.

tis · 04-28-2010, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

It may seem strange but if you drive the boat with the plug out it will actually drain. ( No I did not see this on the three stooges) My dad used to do it on our boat which did not have a bilge to drain the rain water out. The water behind creates a vacuum if you are moving. And if that does not work, just drill more holes to let the water out...

Also keep in mind that if you blow a cooling hose you can pump even more gallons per minute into the boat by keeping the boat running.

Just don't stop the boat!!!!

Just Sold · 04-28-2010, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

It may seem strange but if you drive the boat with the plug out it will actually drain. ( No I did not see this on the three stooges) My dad used to do it on our boat which did not have a bilge to drain the rain water out. The water behind creates a vacuum if you are moving. And if that does not work, just drill more holes to let the water out...

Also keep in mind that if you blow a cooling hose you can pump even more gallons per minute into the boat by keeping the boat running.

Just ask John Birdsall about taking the plug out on the Puddy Tat every morning for the first run of the day or if it sat too long not being used. It was a ritual otherwise the boat would sink from the leaks.

MeEscape · 04-29-2010, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Sold

Just ask John Birdsall about taking the plug out on the Puddy Tat every morning for the first run of the day or if it sat too long not being used. It was a ritual otherwise the boat would sink from the leaks.

Ask John about all those times he stopped BEFORE putting the plug back in!!

Just Sold · 04-29-2010, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeEscape

Ask John about all those times he stopped BEFORE putting the plug back in!!

Yes I do remember that too!!!

VtSteve · 04-28-2010, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

It may seem strange but if you drive the boat with the plug out it will actually drain. ( No I did not see this on the three stooges) My dad used to do it on our boat which did not have a bilge to drain the rain water out. The water behind creates a vacuum if you are moving. And if that does not work, just drill more holes to let the water out...

Also keep in mind that if you blow a cooling hose you can pump even more gallons per minute into the boat by keeping the boat running.

We used to do that on an old Glastron outboard we had. It had problems draining, and this worked fine.

Mee-n-Mac · 04-28-2010, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VtSteve

We used to do that on an old Glastron outboard we had. It had problems draining, and this worked fine.

Same here except the Glastron didn't have problems draining so much as I was lazy and it didn't have a bilge pump. So out for ride we'd go and then I'd open up the drain plug. Since it was the lowest point on the transom and the water behind the transom was being pushed out of the way, the water in the bilge drained out at the lowest point. Much manual pumping was thus sidestepped.

LIforrelaxin · 04-28-2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Same here except the Glastron didn't have problems draining so much as I was lazy and it didn't have a bilge pump. So out for ride we'd go and then I'd open up the drain plug. Since it was the lowest point on the transom and the water behind the transom was being pushed out of the way, the water in the bilge drained out at the lowest point. Much manual pumping was thus sidestepped.

This was the way we handled things on our 75 Bayliner.... for many years....pop the plug, let even a little more water in getting the boat moving..... slowly it starts going back out as you speeded up.... stick the plug back in from the inside... and you where all set.... Man outboards where nice, with a little bilge area, back at the transom..... It wasn't until the boat was 20 years old that the boat got a bilge pump.... But even then we would do it the old way to relive the memories once or twice a year.....

sa meredith · 04-27-2010, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Unless you get a copy of the report, I doubt you'll ever hear anything. Skip said the report would be freely available if you don't remove it from the building. I don't know if he ever got a chance to read it or not.

You will never hear anything from someone with a shattered ego after an experience like that. I'm quite sure many, many people saw the boat after it was reclaimed from the bottom.

Shattered ego aside...there is something to be learned from this. If post 301 is indeed accurate (many PMs to me saying they heard the same thing) , people need to realize, myself included, that a bow rider (even a good size Cobalt), in the broads, loaded very close to/slightly over capacity, on a day when the lake is crazy ugly, is a dangerous proposition.
On this particular day, I believe swells were over 3', very windy, and 8 passengers aboard. Certainly not a disaster waiting to happen, but the situation warrents extreme caution, and proper precautuons need to be taken.
This is in no way meant to a negative post toward those families...the fact that they all had PFDs is evidence of a good captain...but once that nose dipped...just too late. A wake up call for everyone else.
Again, possibly my info is wrong, and there was a boat issue.

samosetguy · 04-27-2010, 11:45 AM

I heard there was an issue with the transducer on the boat. My recollection is the selling marina could never have known about it. It was a construction issue that didn't come to light until the boat was stressed in open waters.

QUALIFYING LANGUAGE:
Please note that I don't actually know if Cobalt boats have a transducer that goes through the hull. I heard this from someone that owns a marina on Lake Winni (not Thurston's) that I'd rather not name just because I value that friendship and don't want to inadvertantly get someone in trouble.

If this isn't a possible explanation please feel free to challenge it. I'm only sharing what I had heard from a source I personally believe is reliable/honest because I believe some folks here may find it interesting/helpful.

04-27-2010, 08:15 AM	#4
LIforrelaxin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas, Lake Ray Hubbard and NH, Long Island Winnipesaukee Posts: 2,875 Thanks: 1,037 Thanked 892 Times in 524 Posts	Let me just say this.... what does it really matter what happened. What matter, is that the capt got everyone off the boat and everyone was rescued, That is the bottom line. Now because of insurance, and blame, and fault, etc, etc, etc, and expensive operation was undertaken to recover the boat from over 100 feet off water... in my mind that boat could have just been left. There wasn't enough gas or oil to worry about poisoning the lake it would of slow dispersed to the top of the lake and evaporated. But the boat was raised, and was hauled off for investigation, the investigation was done and reports where written. Now if the results where anything but weather, of operator error, or some fluke accident I am sure there would have been note worthy new reports. If Cobalt had a defective hull, or Thurston's Service dept. had made a mistake the reports and gossip would have run wild, they didn't.... My guess, is that something totally innocent happened that day out of the control of the capt of the vessel, that cause water entry...a bellows tear, a hull fitting not properly sealed that finally reached a critical point. The problems are numerous. The bottom line is this... the investigation probably showed that it was a series of issues that lead to the problem, that no one entity was the culprit, and unfortunately, an accident occurred. Let all hope that if something like that happens to any one of use, that we are able to keep are cool and keep everyone safe. __________________ Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....

04-27-2010, 12:09 PM	#6
VitaBene Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 3,591 Thanks: 1,628 Thanked 1,641 Times in 844 Posts	Operator I'm sorry but I will be shocked if it was not operator error. I think that BR scooped water. I can't believe that short of the outdrive falling off leaving a huge hole that any other opening (transducer) etc would overcome the bilge pump. If there is a lesson to be learned- trim up (just a few degrees) and keep your bow cover on when the weather gets rough. That open bow creates a giant scoop.

04-27-2010, 07:48 PM	#9
Just Sold Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Suncook, NH, but at The Lake at Heart Posts: 2,615 Thanks: 1,083 Thanked 434 Times in 210 Posts	Sunset Bob, Island Girl and I were there for the Cobalt raising and the fluids, if they leaked, from the boat should have gone past RG's water line pick up had the boat not been raised. SB accompanied the MP to the sand bar near W. Alton Marine where they pumped the Coblat out and continued onto the MP Headquarters. __________________ Just Sold At the lake the stress of daily life just melts away. Pro Re Nata

04-27-2010, 11:57 PM	#11
boat_guy64 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Windham and Meredith Posts: 225 Blog Entries: 5 Thanks: 33 Thanked 89 Times in 42 Posts	My story I’ve always wanted to write what happened that day. I’ve hesitated because it wasn’t my boat and I was just a passenger. I also hoped that someone would read the MP report, report on it and then I could say what I wanted to say without being scrutinized by the people that are sure they know what happened or heard from a friend of a friend of a friend that there was nothing wrong at all with the boat. The last thing that I want to do is argue, debate or have to defend my view in this forum. If you don’t believe me, go spend the $2 to get the MP report and come to your own conclusion. That said. I feel that it may be worthwhile to share what happened. I’m an electrical engineer and not a marine surveyor or a marine mechanic so excuse my lack of in depth knowledge. The day the boat came up was beautiful. It was a warm September day with no wind on the broads. We hung out at the scene all day until MP took control of the boat and towed it back to MP headquarters at about 9:30pm that evening. The boat sank in rough conditions on September 1. That day, Seatow was hired to find and recover the boat. They searched for about two weeks and never found it. It seems that Seatow and the people helping them just didn’t have the required equipment to find a boat that was 138 feet below the surface. They did the best they could with the equipment they had. MP was always available to control traffic and was helpful in the entire process. On September 13, as documented in post 159, a third party came in with commercial grade side scan sonar and found it in about two hours. They held the coordinates of the boat secret until a payment was agreed to by the insurance company. The boat was raised by Seatow as documented in pictures and video that members of the forum documented here on the forum. The boat was then towed to the Alton Sand Bar to finish the job of raising it and the towed away by Marine Patrol. Marine Patrol had their Marine Surveyors look at the boat. They found no physical issues with the boat. As a last test, they put it back in the water. After some time they noticed that the boat was leaking and taking on water back near the outdrive unit. They included pictures of the leak in the report but my copy isn’t clear so I can’t see the exact location of the leak. At this time they secured the boat and watched it continue to take on water. Then, they began to wonder why the bilge pump was not running. They determined that the bilge pump would only run if the battery switch was in the “both battery” position. That is not the position that it was in and not the position that it should ever be in. You never want one battery to go bad and take out the other battery. They didn’t state the root cause so I don’t know if it was mis-wired or a defective switch. At this point they took the boat out of the water and concluded their investigation. So what do I think? I think that with many accidents, several things went wrong simultaneously to make that boat sink. 1. The boat leaked and as we were driving, it was slowing took on water. 2. The bilge pump never ran. 3. With the boat gaining weight and being heavy, we took on waves. I think that it took all three things to make that boat sink.. By the time that we noticed the hull being heavy, we could have made it to Rattlesnake if not for the waves. If the bilge pump worked, it probably would have kept up with the leak. No leak and none of the other factors would have mattered. The captain was in control of at all times. The boat is rated for 15 passengers. We had 8 and 6 of them were in the 100 pound range. (I can’t say the same for myself  ) We had many life jackets on the boat and had them on at the first sign of trouble. Thanks to our rescuers and the people of Rattlesnake Island that offered up docks, facilities and guidance to the location of the boat. We were lucky that day but we were also prepared. I’ve logged hundreds of hours on Winnipesaukee before and after this accident. You need to respect the lake and be prepared. I’ll say that my level of preparedness was always good but now it is even better. Last edited by boat_guy64; 04-28-2010 at 04:02 AM. Reason: wording, grammar

04-28-2010, 09:02 AM	#13
LIforrelaxin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas, Lake Ray Hubbard and NH, Long Island Winnipesaukee Posts: 2,875 Thanks: 1,037 Thanked 892 Times in 524 Posts	Thanks Boat Guy 64, I want to thank you for putting the information out there. The truth is always good to know. I am glad to know that the proper investigation was completed, and the true root cause was found. As an electrical engineer, I am dam disappointed that the wiring on the boat, even has the possibility of being miswired like that. Hopefully Cobalt has since redesigned there wiring for a dual battery set-up. I hope that your friend has continued to boat as well and that this Mishap hasn't discouraged him away from boating. This indeed could have happened to any of us. Accidents happen folks....Even in a Colbalt..... __________________ Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....

04-27-2010, 06:50 AM	#3
VtSteve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,320 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 230 Thanked 361 Times in 169 Posts	Unless you get a copy of the report, I doubt you'll ever hear anything. Skip said the report would be freely available if you don't remove it from the building. I don't know if he ever got a chance to read it or not. You will never hear anything from someone with a shattered ego after an experience like that. I'm quite sure many, many people saw the boat after it was reclaimed from the bottom.

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04-27-2010, 06:10 PM	#7
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	I am glad she was raised for selfish reasons. The spot where the oil and gas would float to was about perfectly in the prevailing wind line with my water line. I am hardly a tree hugger but not sure I would have enjoyed being in the evaporation / slick zone.

04-27-2010, 09:57 PM	#10
VtSteve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,320 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 230 Thanked 361 Times in 169 Posts	So I assume the Cobalt was towed back to HQ? Some witnesses know what happened, or more accurately, what did not happen. As for the rest? The term "Catastrophic" is usually used for insurance cases of this type, which is probably why is was repeated by two people here, and a third that had no idea what she was talking about.

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04-28-2010, 10:09 AM	#14
sa meredith Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 986 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 32 Thanked 352 Times in 137 Posts	good to know Thanks, boatguy64, for the story of what happened. I just can't imagine what it must have been like the second you all realized the boat was indeed going down. Must have caused some sleepless nights. As an aside...I'm curious about something, and would welcome advise from anyone... We always run the boat with the battery switch on "Both", yet you stated that is not the correct way to operate. Are you certain? I guess I just never ask anyone...just the way I was taught after the switch was installed. Maybe I just assumed...

04-29-2010, 12:00 AM	#17
trfour Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Lakes, Central NH. and Dallas/Fort Worth TX. Posts: 3,694 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 3,069 Thanked 472 Times in 236 Posts	The Good News... I only forgot to put the transom plug in once, and just beached it... Thank God I was close to home!... Ya,I know I could have gassed her up all day and stayed afloat, but that would have put a huge cramp in my get along! What a Twerp! Disclaimer, I water test with the engine cover UP... I'm 66, so no big thing, been there done that, but still very lucky to be here. And also, I think God has had something to do with this as well... I will go away now! Terry _____________________________________ __________________ *trfour* Always Remember, The Best Safety Device In The Boat, or on a PWC Snowmobile etc., Is YOU! Safe sledding tips and much more; http://www.snowmobile.org/snowmobiling-safety.html

04-28-2010, 01:06 PM	#22
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	I haven't had a battery Master Switch since I had my cabin boats.. you know, the ones that has bunks, you can sleep aboard, has cabin lights, stereo, ship to shore VHF radio, etc. The master switch usually has Four positions. #1 battery, #2 battery, OFF, and BOTH. When the engine is running, the battery the switch is set to, will be On Line meaning it will be charging. If Both is set, both battery's will charge at the same time. When I was underway under power (It was a sailboat) I was always On BOTH Battery's to take advantage of the engine charging both battery's. When I shut the engine off to SAIL, I would switch the Master Switch over to a single battery. It will take quite awhile to run a battery down using just a VHF, sailing instruments, and maybe the stereo. Something to ponder..and I'm sure it will confuse those not familiar with how some stuff works. A friend of mine had a '79 Ferrari 308 GTS. It had carburetters Vs Electronic Fuel Injection. The alternator was kapoot and would NOT charge the battery or do anything else. It's location in front of, and down under the engine made it almost imposable to remove. So it had to be done by a professional with the proper tools..most importantly a LIFT, which he did not have. Cash was not readily available at the time, for various reasons. This did NOT mean the car could not be driven. It was just an occasional Sunday Driver anyhow. He would routinely take the car out for an entire Sunday ride...with NO functioning Alternator. ONLY the battery was there for electricity for Ignition and anything else. You could start the engine any number of times, and then Drive It ALL DAY On The Battery Alone....say 150-200 miles..Rhode Island down to Connecticut and back. The only catch was don't use the headlights or radio. No one with a Ferrari uses the radio anyway. If the car had had Electronic Fuel Injection requireing electrical power, it might have been a different story. My current 20 foot runaboat with a 350 V8 does not have a battery switch... just one battery which I have replaced twice in 14 years.. last.. just last summer. The bilge pump is always set to Automatic and is Always connected to the battery...UNLESS I accidently "bump" the dashboard toggle switch to OFF. NB Last edited by NoBozo; 04-28-2010 at 02:03 PM.

05-03-2010, 12:47 PM	#27
sugatam Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Is it true that when in a whaler you don't have to worry about getting swamped? My friend was telling me that a fully swamped whaler would still float and run like normal, and not sink or become prone to rolling over. If true, why don't more manufacturers build in enough positive flotation into their hulls?

05-03-2010, 02:44 PM	#28
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Grady - That's not how my previous boat, with 1,2,both ,off switch worked. Both position would charge both batteries. Sugatam - All boats under a certain size need positive flotation. On larger boats, the only way to get positive flotation would be to fill usuable areas, like cabins, closets and bathrooms with styrofoam. Most people would rather have the interior space.

05-03-2010, 03:06 PM	#30
Wolfeboro_Baja Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Hopkinton NH Posts: 395 Thanks: 88 Thanked 80 Times in 46 Posts	Thank you JRC and Grady for your responses. JRC, we do the same thing you mentioned about alternating battery usage each time we go out. For us, it's a little more difficult to remember which battery we used last since we tow our boat to the lake and usually only one day a week (usually Sunday, occasionally Saturday). So it sounds like the only time I should use the "Both" position is when neither battery is strong enough to crank the engine by itself. And assuming it starts on "Both", I should switch back to battery 1 or 2 as quickly as possible WITHOUT hitting the "OFF" position. I may have to ask a Mercruiser mechanic the next time I'm at Channel Marine. __________________ Cancer SUCKS!

05-03-2010, 04:13 PM	#31
Kerk Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 87 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	No Battery required !! I drove my first car home with No battery in it ! Ran off the generator. Took the 6 volt battery out of the ford 8 N tractor and started the car. I wrapped a rag around the cables. Returned the battery to the tractor and put it away. Drove the 32 Ford home with no registration or plates ! Did not get caught till my father found out !! Things were different in 52! Kerk

05-03-2010, 07:32 PM	#32
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	Both When the battery switch is set to BOTH.....BOTH Batterys WILL charge at the same time while the engine is running. There will be NO Damage to the alternator. I can't speak for a two stroke as that infers an outboard. I have no recent experience with electrical systems in outboards. NB

05-04-2010, 08:09 AM	#35
OCDACTIVE Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Fort Myers FL / Moultonboro Posts: 1,045 Thanks: 444 Thanked 574 Times in 178 Posts	each boat, depending on year, type, set up etc. (too many variables) can have different electrical set ups. So although operating on "both" may inevidebly be bad for one type may be fine for another. You hit the nail on the head, definately go with whatever your manual or manufactorer says. __________________ Have you had your Vessel Inspected Yet?

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LIforrelaxin (05-04-2010)

04-28-2010, 01:29 PM	#37
OCDACTIVE Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Fort Myers FL / Moultonboro Posts: 1,045 Thanks: 444 Thanked 574 Times in 178 Posts	NB, interesting story on the Ferrari.. I am not an electric engineer so I couldn't explain why that would work but from my limited experience I have seen that there are many different ways these systems (car or boat) over the years have been set up. As an example, as many may recall, you could run your car or boat without the battery at all. You could start a boat just by jumping it off a battery or another boat and as long as the engine was running you were fine. However 2 years ago I found out the hard way that on newer boats the circuits are set up a bit different. I was out on my 17 foot runabout. The boat was going perfectly and then just stopped. I checked everything and couldn't figure it out. I thought the way it simply shut off that there was a fuel pump problem. After getting towed back and checking everything I noticed the battery connections were a bit corroded. Never would I think that this was the problem but thought it was best to clean them regardless.... Guess what! that was it. Somehow if the ciruit was broken (due to the corrossion) on the battery terminals the boat would not run. Needless to say I now keep them very clean and keep a wire brush in my tool box. __________________ Have you had your Vessel Inspected Yet?

04-28-2010, 02:16 PM	#38
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	In my experience,engines with electronic ignitions( non points distributors ) you will need a good connection to keep the engine running. With EFI you will have some sort of controler weather a PCM,ECM etc.,those systems you need more than 12 volts,generally closer to 13.2 to run at optimal performance. As a Kid I remember running on just an altenator no battery,you won't get away with that on todays vehicles.

04-28-2010, 02:39 PM	#39
VtSteve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,320 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 230 Thanked 361 Times in 169 Posts	Like others have stated, thanks for the follow-up. Interesting battery setup, I know some boats actually run like this for charging, but I think it depends on the switch itself. I was going to do two batteries, until I became confused over the choices and setups. Hard to say what was leaking and when. Possibly something was damaged when it hit the lake bottom? Who knows when it occurred. Might have been a leak near the outdrive not being properly sealed, any number of things. This is the best ending to a nearly tragic story. Everyone was rescued and nobody was hurt. Has the boat's owner had it with boating, or did he get back up on the horse?

04-28-2010, 04:38 PM	#40
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	Something to consider. We all know that when the battery is dead (for whatever reason) we can Jump Start the car with another car, or battery and you are good to go as long as you don't shut off the engine UNTIL.... you have allowed the alternator enough time to RE Charge the battery. This assumes that the alternator was not the problem in the first place, and the battery just went dead because you left the lights on. If the battery is OLD, and will no longer "hold a charge".. and is deemed Useless, you can still drive the car..... "on the alternator".. as long as you jump start the car every time. Even though the battery is useless for starting the car.. it is Still IN The Circuit. If you were to remove the battery from the Circuit while the engine is running, and the alternator is making power as it is, you will have broken the Circuit and I think you may be at Great RISK of damaging (Frying) the alternator. The battery, even though dead, acts like a Surge Protector...and completes the Circuit. Nobody FIXES Alternators, so you replace it even if it only has a cooked Diode. In the case of the Ferrari, the BAD alternator was Left IN the Circuit. In a different case where the Battery is BAD, or Just Dead, The BAD battery should be left in place, connected, providing a complete Circuit. OBVIOUSLY, in either case you are going to Replace the bad part VERY SOON. If you feel left out reading this.. NOT TO WORRY: Today's engines in boats and cars are pretty much Well Beyond the capability of even those of us who used to work on our own stuff. No more self taught "Mechanics" who could actually FIX something. Today we have "Technicians" who have to go to school at great expense, where they learn how to hook up a computer to the engine to Diagnose the problem...... then replace the defective part in it's entirety. My boat is a 1986 with an Old GM 350 V8, ...a Real Carburetor, a Real Distributer, Real Ignition Coil, Real Spark Plug Wires. I Can.... and Do.. work on my own boat. NB -------------------------------------------- DAM: I really got carried away this time. My wife sometimes tells me to STIFLE when I start getting technical. Time for an Adult Beverage. POP QUIZ Tomorrow at 10:00.

04-28-2010, 04:52 PM	#41
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	It may seem strange but if you drive the boat with the plug out it will actually drain. ( No I did not see this on the three stooges) My dad used to do it on our boat which did not have a bilge to drain the rain water out. The water behind creates a vacuum if you are moving. And if that does not work, just drill more holes to let the water out... Also keep in mind that if you blow a cooling hose you can pump even more gallons per minute into the boat by keeping the boat running.

04-27-2010, 11:45 AM	#50
samosetguy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 61 Thanks: 42 Thanked 35 Times in 14 Posts	What I heard I heard there was an issue with the transducer on the boat. My recollection is the selling marina could never have known about it. It was a construction issue that didn't come to light until the boat was stressed in open waters. QUALIFYING LANGUAGE: Please note that I don't actually know if Cobalt boats have a transducer that goes through the hull. I heard this from someone that owns a marina on Lake Winni (not Thurston's) that I'd rather not name just because I value that friendship and don't want to inadvertantly get someone in trouble. If this isn't a possible explanation please feel free to challenge it. I'm only sharing what I had heard from a source I personally believe is reliable/honest because I believe some folks here may find it interesting/helpful.