Hardpack, ledgepack and steep driveways

[Captain Haddock]

I'm finding conflicting advice, info and quotes with no clear understanding .. hopefully someone can clarify for me. I'm asking these questions in relation to an approximately 450ft [fairly steep] driveway that ends at a beach. There is a drainage ditch on one side that is somewhat effective in normal conditions, but struggles with the rains we have had in the Lakes region this summer. So:

1) What is "hardpack"? (what is it comprised of, what binds it together, is it suitable for a steep driveway and will what gets washed down from it during expected erosion affect the beach or lake?)

2) What is ledgepack (similar questions to above)

3) Any recommendations for suppliers of either in the Center Harbor, Moultonborough or surrounding area that can maybe do some grading work and application?

4) What techniques have others used to limit erosion of steep driveways or have you found a better material than those mentioned above to limit erosion?

You may also respond to me at david.grigglestone@gmail.com

[Pineedles]

Hi Cappy,

Check this thread out in the Home, Cottage or Land Maintenance section from April of 2006.


Ledgepack/Hardpack for Driveway

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=3163

[ACutAbove]

My understanding of the difference is....
Ledgepack is what comes out of the ledge when it it blasted and mixed together, ledge, dirt, sand what ever the loader or excavator picks up and drops in the crusher from the blast site.
Hardpack, is a mixture of what ever kind of stone,dirt, asphalt, concrete, that happens to find its way to the crusher and gets run thru it together.

Is one better than the other.... depends where it is made and what the mixture is also at some point who is actually making either product as to what is better. Ledgepack is exactly that ,ledgepack or hardpack can also be reffered to as gravel.
I guess it all depends on who you talk to for the interpitation of what is best to use.
And it also comes in different sizes from 1/2 inch up to 3-6 inch again size to use depends on application.
Hope this helps, and doesnt confuse you to much.
If you want any info just PM me and I will see what I can do to help you.

[Captain Haddock]

I did see that thread .. but as indicated I am confused. One contractor I have gone to in the past indicated "hardpack" is different to "ledgepack" (and he would be charging me a significant premium for "hardpack"). But I could never really get details of what was in each (binding agent, etc .. i.e. the things I am asking in this thread) and whether they would affect our beach or the lake. Also he said that what we had on our driveway last time was not ledgepack (even though he sold it to us as ledgepack!!!!!).

I will follow up with the vendors mentioned in that thread, but in the meantime want to get an indepent view of whats what if I can

thanks, Haddock

[Captain Haddock]

Ah .. just seen your response (posted at same time I was posting my reply to the first response).

So what you seem to be saying is that I'd better find a supplier that I can have confidence in supplying a good binding mix.

If you have any particular recommendations you can email me directly at david.grigglestone@gmail.com

many thanks, David

[Slickcraft]

We have a 650' steep gravel driveway where erosion control is always an issue. I do three things:
1. Maintain a crown so water flows in a sheet flow to the sides rather than making a race track down the drive.
2. Every 50' or so I have what I call water bars, 45 degree mini channels to carry water to the sides into the ditch.
3. A good ditch line on each side and selected side channels to carry water away from the driveway area.

As some of the fines will always wash out, some surface gravel replacement in necessary every few years. (3/4” screen in my case).

Hard pack or ledge pack has stone dust mixed with fine (maybe 1/2" screen) gravel and/or stone. It will be more durable than regular gravel but only if you take some erosion control steps. A 10 minute cloud burst could cut a good channel in a poorly designed hard pack surface.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Captain Haddock

"...have you found a better material than those mentioned above to limit erosion...?

We have a steep driveway and it's just dirt. The best thing I did in 52 years was to put a "drive-over" berm at the very top holding back any sudden floodwaters.

When a flood nearly breaches the berm, the "held-back" waters get directed off to either side of the driveway. One side was gently, but properly ditched sixty years ago, and also acts as a holding pond. The other side was not particularly well-ditched, but has adequately dissipated floodwaters into the woods all these years.

My driveway did get "channelized" in a sudden storm at 4:28PM on July 6th, 2000, but it took only a ¼-yard of gravel to fix its full length.

Originally Posted by Captain Haddock

"...4) What techniques have others used to limit erosion of steep driveways..."

Properly attired, you might try standing in the rain!

(As the rain lightens up but the waters are still moving quickly. )

Watch the main channels well above the area you are concerned with. Even if you do nothing, water will take somewhat different courses between rainstorms—but the deepest waters and major streams will show what needs to get done.

What you don't want for a driveway surface is what a neighbor's single-family residential rental unit got: some kind of thin asphalt skim.

Dry, it worked fine. Wet, tires started digging up the surface.

In only two years, nothing was left of the original asphalt except what can be seen at the dark, flat area bordered by a white curb in the 2007 photo below (left).

This driveway is a very steep driveway, and downslope from a shared steep dirt driveway that has still more issues itself. Those driveway problems are compounded by a raised shared leachfield that divides floodwaters down both driveways.

The cement parking platform blocks (right) were straight upon installation in 2005, but have shifted downslope even more since this photo was taken in 2007. Their roots covered, the two large trees adjacent have both died, dropping branches on cars parked there.

A lot of thought has to go into driveway runoff management, but it needn't require a college degree.

[Seeker]

Slickcraft has some good points if you use gravel. On my private road, about 1/4 mile long, I use what we call roadpack. It's basically gravel with clay. I spread it, york rake it or grade it then pack it with a gas powered compactor. The more you drive on it the harder it gets. You can't put it down when the area is wet however. Never had a problem with rivulets (is that a word?) or washouts.

[RLW]

Don't forget the new rules that CSPA has put into effect. One can not add or change a driveway that is within 250' of water. It does reference filling / regrading and excavating driveways.

[Onshore]

Under Rule Env-Wq 1406.04 (c) (4) you can resurface a driveway without a permit as long as it's footprint remains the same. Changing the surface type as long as you don't change from a pervious surface to an impervious surface is fine. Since gravel, hard pack, and ledge pack are all considered impervious, paving a gravel driveway would not require a permit. Not advocating pavement... just saying it wouldn't need a permit. We do realize that some amount of additional base material is usually needed but we do not consider it fill if it is simply base material used in surface prep. If a significant amount of material is brought in to change grades then it would be viewed differently and need a permit.