Wire size question for washing machine, 14 guage?

[Kamper]

Hi!

My step-daugher just bought an older house and has asked me to use my handy-man skills on it.

The wiring passed inspection even though it's all the type that looks like tarred fabric. The outlet for the washer is overhead and has an adapter stuck in it. I'm thinking of replacing the circuit for her. I'm not sure what guage the current stuff is because I haven't pulled a sample. I have plenty of 14g to do the job along with boxes, outlets and covers. Does anyone know if this size wire is adequate for a typical washing machine?

You may think I'm cheap but I'm just trying to prioritise the expenditures.

Thanks in advance for constructive advice!

K

[upthesaukee]

http://www.applianceaid.com/electric.html

Scroll down on the page. Seems to favor 12 guage over a minimum 14 gu.

[Kamper]

I get that too.

"A/w - 110 - 120 volt, 60 hertz 15/20 amp circuit breaker or fused electrical supply line. Power cord must be connected to a properly grounded and polarized outlet. Because of water conditions found in a laundry room, a GFI ( ground fault interrupter ) outlet might also be considered. #14 gauge house wire minimum for 15 amp protection, #12 gauge is a must for 20 amp protection."

Interesting site. Thanks!

[RLW]

14/2 w/ground is more than enough..

[Kamper]

Definitly with ground! I'm also going to put a GFCI outlet on the washer outlet, and the ones near the kitchen and bathroom sinks.

I'm still in the 'reconaisance' mode of this job. I've found a couple things that are going to need profesional attention but the seller was supposed to deal with those within one month of the closing, I'm hopeful that what has been done with the C/B box and meter are not considerred finished!

The newly installed breaker box has no master shut-off and they hung a meter above the meter box and duct-taped the whole where the meter should have been!

I have a licensed eletrician that I can trust with those jobs though, if she can't get the seller to finish them. Meters and masters are outside my comfort zone. I'll let you know what other surprises I ifnd.

[brk-lnt]

Considering the marginal cost of the wire, I'd run a 12/2 circuit and put in a 20Amp breaker, that should cover anything you'll need in the laundry room.

Are they re-doing all the electrical, or just adding a new sub-panel to the existing setup?

[tummyman]

Kamper, first thing you need to do is insist that the owner pulls an electrical permit with the local town. This will protect you and your daughter if things are not done according to code. Insist that the electrical work pass a final inspection before any escrow money is returned to the seller. Electrical work that is not inspected can be a real safety issue and an insurance issue in the future. Do it correct...it is your daughter that will be living there and maybe your grandkids. No shortcuts with electrical or propane or heat....NEVER! Get the permits first and use only licensed people to protect your family. Be safe, not sorry for trying to save a few bucks.

[tummyman]

Also remember, there are electrical codes that MUST be followed. The permit will help to insure that things are done correctly. In NH you can do wiring in your own home and I did for a huge addition. But I had all the permits and got all the inspections.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by Kamper

Definitly with ground! I'm also going to put a GFCI outlet on the washer outlet, and the ones near the kitchen and bathroom sinks.

In that link I referenced earlier in this thread, there is a link to either a GFCI discusssion or to manufacturers re: GFCI. Give that a look see, and as Tummyman says, either have an electrician do it or at least consult with one.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Most all municipalities use a version of the National Electric Code (NEC) which you can look up on line. For a laundry room, all outlets including the washer, need to be on a dedicated 20 amp circuit (12-2). GFCI is required if receptacle is within 6 feet of sink, but not a bad idea regardless.

As tummyman mentioned, pull a permit and get the inspections. Cheap insurance.

[camp guy]

I'm telling you, Kamper, the mere fact that you have asked these questions shows me you ae not ready to do the job. Like one of the posters said, NEVER fool around with electrical or propane systems. Even if you had some casual knowledge of what to do, the risk isn't worth what money you might save by doing it yourself rather than a licensed electrician. The potential for property damage, let alone loss of life, just isn't worth even considering doing it yourself.

Please excuse me for the rant, but with 18 years in the fire service I have a passion for safety.

[NoBozo]

I am a do it yourself guy: I have been in my current house for 34 years. I do ALL my own stuff. Including minor electrical. I have NEVER hired anybody to do ANYTHING on.. or in my house.

The Exception: I had a new roof put on by a contractor. I'm good, but I don't know everything.

A couple of years ago my insurance company descided my Main Electrical Panel coming in to the house was "Suspect"...and requested I have it replaced. I GOOGLED. They were right. I had it replaced by an electrical contractor. There are some things that need to be done by a "Licenced" professional.

THEN: If the house burns down...and people die..you have someone to SUE. If YOU did the work.....YOU CAN'T SUE YOURSELF. NB

[Puckster]

a 15 amp dedicated circuit should be fine. But as others have posted, running a 12-2, 20 amp circuit would be best. Some of the older washing machines draw alot of amps. In new construction, 20 amp dedicated circuits are always run for the washing machine.

[Kamper]

You guys must be reading my mind...

The circuits that I was hoping to upgrade the outlets on, are all 2 strand (single core), no ground, cable. I decided against stressing it by detaching it from the outlets but it apears to be just 16g. When the seller moved out she took the fridge with her and that must have been as old as the house unless she used a 3/2 adapter. My daughter asked me about using an adapter to power the fridge we are lending her but I insisted on moving it to the basement where there's a new GFCI outlet on 12g with 20 amp service.

The seller had accepted an obligation to have certain upgrades to the house's electrical system completed within one month of closing. I've advised my girl to consider the job incomplete until she gets a copy of the code officer signing off on the job. She will be contacting the agent tomorrow about that documentation.

Even though she is permitted to replace existing circuits I told her it would be better to wait until we are sure the seller's commitment is complete, or that it's obvious they believe it is. I would not want my work to be grounds for the electrician that was hired to refuse to complete their job. Also,it has been brewing in my head since I looked at the work yesterday that it is possible the work was not done by a professional and perhaps without a proper permit. I don't want to muddy those waters either!

She's a bit bummed that the only safe place to plug in her fridge and microwave are in the celler but she seems to have accepted my opinion that it's the safest course for now.

There are a total of 4 outlets (1 per wall) in the kitchen. I openned up two of them and they have a cable in, and one out but I was not able to trace their routings with any confidence. I also put a tester on the 3-hole outlet in the bathroom and it has an open ground and I told her not to use it. I have suggested that once the current situation is resolved we have a pro look at the situation and advise on replacing the present equipment and/or adding a few more circuits that we are certain will support modern appliances.

To those of you who have expressed great caution, thank you for your concern. I am very conservative on my electrical work. That's why I asked questions before I started on the project. It's great when a request for help results in the satisfactory completion of a project but my first objective is safety, not convenience.

If anything in this update leads to additional suggestions or information I am interested in hearing what you have to share.

Thanks!

[Resident 2B]

I suggest that, in the interest of safety, you have a licensed electrician look at what is there from the drop, through to the outlets/fixtures. Are the circuits properly protected with fuses or breakers? Some older homes have fuse boxes that accept any size (amp) fuse and the prior owner might have installed a fuse that is too big for the wiring. The open ground in a bathroom is a major "red-light" to me.

I would want to make sure there were no additional safety issues besides the open ground in the bath.

Good luck!

R2B

[John E]

To answer the OP, if you were to run a new 14/2 (15 amp) circuit it will be adequate to handle a washing machine. If it is in the basement or within 6' of a sink it should have GFCI protection. However it will not be in compliance with the National Electric Code as it would be required to be a 20 amp circuit. Again it will handle the load and be perfectly safe.

Because you have old 2 wire (no ground) non metalic sheathed cable (romex) all of your outlets will show open ground. (of course it is open - there isn't a ground) Per NEC you may replace the older 2 wire receptacles with 3 wire receptacles provided that you install GFCI protection upstream and label the 3 wired receptacles alerting users that there is no ground.

You should check permitting requirements in your area to see if you are allowed to do the work as an unlicensed homeowner.

At a minimum I would install new circuits to all the major appliances. Refrigerator, dish washer, range, dryer, etc.

The original wiring is not 16 gauge. The older 14 gauge is just a lot softer and may seem to be smaller than today's.

[camp guy]

OMG, what are we talking about. The more I read the more I am scared to death I am going to read abut this in the paper as a tragic house fire with loss of life.

Please, please, get a licensed electrician involved immediately, before someone does something well-intentioned but terribly wrong.

There is no substitute for safety, and you can't save enough as a homeowner doing it yourself if the whole house burns flat.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but please, get the pros involved.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by camp guy

OMG, what are we talking about. The more I read the more I am scared to death I am going to read abut this in the paper as a tragic house fire with loss of life.

Please, please, get a licensed electrician involved immediately, before someone does something well-intentioned but terribly wrong.

There is no substitute for safety, and you can't save enough as a homeowner doing it yourself if the whole house burns flat.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but please, get the pros involved.

One can Never be TOO Careful. We are talking about total mayhem here. A house fire can be devastating...PETS..LOVED Ones..Collectibles...all gone...

Remember the old days when ALUMINUM wire was all the rage..gotta have it. OOPs. That didn't work and...we went back to ..DAM.. OLD Fashioned copper wire. But I digress.

Actually, I think Really Cool Decorator CANDLES cause more fires than anything else. NB

[Kamper]

Well we heard back from the seller's electrician. The two main problems I had with their job are items PSNH is going to handle. Then the building inspector will sign off.

She also got a quote from them on updating some of the circuits and will get another bid from my guy.

Thanks to all who have added informative comments.

And to the panic mongers... "Lighten up Francis!" You remind me of the guy who told me my home-made dock lines would get me a ticket because they aren't certified "Marine Rated." I welcome all additional constructive comments but if all you are gong to write is how you are peeing your pants at just the thought of this job, well... Please (quietly) enjoy yourselves in private.

@R2B: Open ground is a yellow light (center), red is hot attached to neutral or ground.

[ITD]

I always do my own wiri

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Remember the old days when ALUMINUM wire was all the rage..gotta have it. OOPs. That didn't work and...we went back to ..DAM.. OLD Fashioned copper wire. NB

Aluminum wire is still all the rage. All the high power wire you see on poles and the ones that come right to your house are aluminum. Nothing wrong with it at all. The problem with it is the connection points when aluminum oxidizes and these connections can start arcing. Use of a proper conductive grease coating these connections work great. The problem is that so many connections are made in a house it makes it pretty tough to inspect and monitor them all. Also, aluminum weighs 1/3 the weight of copper and can transmit twice as much power per lb as copper. FWIW

[Kamper]

@Siksukr

This wire is probably pre WWII. It looks 'white' to me. I was thinking aluminum, what's your guess?

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Kamper

@Siksukr

This wire is probably pre WWII. It looks 'white' to me. I was thinking aluminum, what's your guess?

I'm thinking I would want to replace that circuit with new 12-3 romex.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Aluminum wire is still all the rage. All the high power wire you see on poles and the ones that come right to your house are aluminum. Nothing wrong with it at all. The problem with it is the connection points when aluminum oxidizes and these connections can start arcing. Use of a proper conductive grease coating these connections work great. The problem is that so many connections are made in a house it makes it pretty tough to inspect and monitor them all. Also, aluminum weighs 1/3 the weight of copper and can transmit twice as much power per lb as copper. FWIW

I think part of the problem..maybe most of the problem (at least in residential applications) was..as you said..at the connection points. The problem at the connection point was the fact that the aluminum wire "Relaxes" under the pressure of clamp down screws, etc and results in a Not So Tight connection. When this happens, the connection becomes a high resistance connection and gets HOT under load and can cause a fire. NB

PS: I think there was a Retro-Fix for this...a short copper pigtail spliced onto the end of each aluminum wire so the connection point was copper.

[tummyman]

When dealing with aluminum wire, there are some things that you should consider. First, they make a special wire nut connector with a gel liquid inside than is specifically designed for aluminum connections. Secondly, there are specific receptacles and switches designed for aluminum.....they are specially coded. You will pay more for them, but it is well worth the investment. If i were dealing with aluminum wiring , I would hire a licensed electrician to make code connections. If there is aluminum wiring in the house, I would change out every plug and switch. I would also try and remove as much of it as possible, to be replaced with copper, especially on circuits that have a lager load on them.

[TNT Electrical Contractor]

Keep in mind it is illegal to install any NEW circuitry in the state of NH Per RSA 319.C -- Unless it is your own primary residence

[ITD]

Originally Posted by TNT Electrical Contractor

Keep in mind it is illegal to install any NEW circuitry in the state of NH Per RSA 319.C -- Unless it is your own primary residence

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once,

From RSA 319 - C:15, the exact wording, please post if there is other wording I missed:


" II. Nothing in this chapter shall prevent a homeowner from making electrical installations in or about a single family residence owned and occupied by him or her or to be occupied by him or her as his or her bona fide personal abode."

[Kamper]

Thanks. We are still waiting for PSNH to do their bits. After that I wil tell her I can only "help" her install it herself.