Seaplane refueling from portable cans in 19 Mile Bay

[knowit]

Anyone know if this is legal? White and red seaplane with no tail numbers pulls up to shore in 19 MIle Bay and has guys waiting with multiple red gas cans and they climb on top and refuel it sitting in the water. Does not look safe or environmentally friendly at all. Just wondering.
Thanks

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by knowit

Anyone know if this is legal? White and red seaplane with no tail numbers pulls up to shore in 19 MIle Bay and has guys waiting with multiple red gas cans and they climb on top and refuel it sitting in the water. Does not look safe or environmentally friendly at all. Just wondering.
Thanks

Don't know if the gassing situation is legal or illegal, but if the plane had no tail numbers then their might be a problem.

[ITD]

Very cool, why would it be illegal? Is it illegal to fuel a boat on the water?

[ishoot308]

It’s definitely not illegal but could be against some town ordinance. For example I know refueling boats at the Glendale docks is not allowed most likely for liability reasons…

Dan

[Woodsy]

My guess would be the plane requires a fuel not available on the lake, most likely 100LL or something similar. I don't think it is illegal to refuel on the lake, but you def open yourself up to some liability if there is a spill. (We all know marinas spill small amounts of gas all the time)

The biggest issue would be the lack of visible registration numbers.

Woodsy

[knowit]

That’s what I thought.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by ITD

Very cool, why would it be illegal? Is it illegal to fuel a boat on the water?

Agreed, but there is some animosity in the area about any seaplane. In other states, citizens have learned to share. No picture posted, but this could be an experimental aircraft, 3" numbers instead of 12"?

"Your N Number must be at least 3 inches high when the maximum cruising speed of the aircraft does not exceed 180 knots CAS. If the maximum cruising speed is over 180 knots CAS, then the size of the registration number must be 12 inches high."

[tis]

The one that applied to do rides out of 19 Mile Bay is red and white.

[8gv]

I would bet a hundred burgers that the plane has tail numbers.

They are likely small but legal.

Please remember that things that are not made "illegal" by laws or regulations (don't get me started on those) are in fact "legal".

Sometimes things that are unfamiliar to us appear to be odd, unusual or even illegal.

These things might be quite routine in the circles in which another person might travel.

For example, have you ever seen a banner towing aircraft pick up a banner?

It looks like a Kamikaze attack!

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by 8gv

For example, have you ever seen a banner towing aircraft pick up a banner?

Yes, many times at BVY!

[ApS]

1) The Town of Wolfeboro demanded that Wolfeboro Airpark remove its 100 octane fuel pump from the vicinity of its floatplane ramps. A 500 gallon fuel container was placed in the bed of 1920s Ford 1-ton pickup truck and gravity-fed gasoline to floatplanes which occasioned Winter Harbor. A logbook was placed on the passenger's seat so bills could be mailed out.

https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...2&postcount=14

When the truck was removed before 1997, floatplanes were fueled using hand-carried containers.

2) Something you seldom see with banner-towing aircraft.

Off Hampton Beach, New Hampshire--just Saturday:

https://www.mynbc5.com/article/new-h...nding/44680422

[ITD]

This aircraft might have been an ultralight, which don't need to be registered.

[The Real BigGuy]

It isn’t an ultralight. It is a Cessna float plane. I don’t believe it’s top speed exceeds 180 so it is only require to have 3” registration numbers.


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[The Real BigGuy]

Correction: it is not the speed of the aircraft, it is the date numbers were first applied or manufactured. From National Aviation Center - “These must be at least 12 inches high, with a few exceptions. An airplane that displays marks at least 2 inches high before November 1, 1981 and an aircraft manufactured after November 2, 1981, but before January 1, 1983, may display those marks until the aircraft is repainted or the marks are repainted, restored, or changed.” If this is the seaplane that wanted to sell rides from Pier 19 I believe it’s owner stated it was a pre 80’s model in one of his posts.


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[Descant]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

Correction: it is not the speed of the aircraft, it is the date numbers were first applied or manufactured. From National Aviation Center - “These must be at least 12 inches high, with a few exceptions. An airplane that displays marks at least 2 inches high before November 1, 1981 and an aircraft manufactured after November 2, 1981, but before January 1, 1983, may display those marks until the aircraft is repainted or the marks are repainted, restored, or changed.” If this is the seaplane that wanted to sell rides from Pier 19 I believe it’s owner stated it was a pre 80’s model in one of his posts.

I believe the speed reference quoted above applies to Experimental aircraft. "Experimental" is a very broad term in the aviation world, including everything form ultralights to kits like the BD-5 which I think is actually a jet.

Trying not to get too far off subject, but the OP didn't give much description or a picture, so there is speculation running through the thread.

[The Real BigGuy]

You can see the tail numbers, but can read them because of the original photo’s resolution, if you enlarge the picture. They are in the white just in front of and below the horizontal stabilizer.


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[ITD]

Seems like a lot of work to be lugging those gas cans around when you could be at Laconia or Moultonboro in a few minutes, land and fuel up. Maybe he has an autogas approval for the engine, but still, gas isn't light and I'm sure it takes much more than 5 gallons to satisfy that monster.

[The Real BigGuy]

That have 6 or so 5 gal containers in a cart that the wheel over to the plane. Still carrying the containers down the rocky incline, over the pontoons, and lifting up to the wing can’t be fun.


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[Descant]

Originally Posted by ITD

Seems like a lot of work to be lugging those gas cans around when you could be at Laconia or Moultonboro in a few minutes, land and fuel up. Maybe he has an autogas approval for the engine, but still, gas isn't light and I'm sure it takes much more than 5 gallons to satisfy that monster.

Don't you need wheels to land in Laconia or Moultonborough?

It appears to me this is something done to resolve an immediate fuel need, not something the pilot wants to do routinely.

[The Real BigGuy]

Don’t know if this is the case here but, most float planes have retractable wheels in the floats.


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[Descant]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

Don’t know if this is the case here but, most float planes have retractable wheels in the floats.

My active flying days are well in the past, but when I was active few floats had retractable wheels and the floats were changed out for winter flying and back to floats for summer. I also flew on skis for winter when I was operating out of a grass field.

[The Real BigGuy]

Out of curiosity, with no wheels, how did you get the plane in a position wher you could remove the floats, mount the skis, then get it to a surface where you could takeoff?


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[tis]

Didn't he live on Mirror Lake? Not sure if he still does.

[The Real BigGuy]

If you enlarge the previously posted picture you can see the nose wheels on this 180. Clearly an amphibian.


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[Excalibur]

Originally Posted by Descant

Agreed, but there is some animosity in the area about any seaplane. In other states, citizens have learned to share. No picture posted, but this could be an experimental aircraft, 3" numbers instead of 12"?

"Your N Number must be at least 3 inches high when the maximum cruising speed of the aircraft does not exceed 180 knots CAS. If the maximum cruising speed is over 180 knots CAS, then the size of the registration number must be 12 inches high."

I like this sign, they needed it in India for this flight

https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/...1-664af542dee6

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

Out of curiosity, with no wheels, how did you get the plane in a position wher you could remove the floats, mount the skis, then get it to a surface where you could takeoff?


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That is an interesting question, but one methodology I have seen done is to fly the float plane to a grass landing strip and plop it on the ground.... the same guy that did that, also had a dolly built that he could use to take off from the grass strip, with the floats on to get it back in the water.....

With that said, I also met a gentman, that had his home by a pond that was just big enough to land his plane and also take off.... He built a trailer, so that once a year he could move the boat to and from the pond.... and then kept it out on Winnipesaukee at a friends (my neighbors place) home for the float plane season.....

[The Real BigGuy]

Thanks. That is interesting but sounds like a ton of work. I guess I’ll stop complaining about trailering my boat a couple times a year.


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[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

Thanks. That is interesting but sounds like a ton of work. I guess I’ll stop complaining about trailering my boat a couple times a year.


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IT is not a light weight task for sure...... And when you are switching from floats to skis or floats to wheels it isn't like your average joe can do the work and call it done. The FAA requires that it be done and signed off by someone that is certified. That is why amphibious planes are great.....

[ITD]

Most float planes I've seen have retractable landing gears. Having a float only plane seems impractical to me.

[LIforrelaxin]

So curiosity got the better of me, I am not sure what plane is picture but to understand how much fuel a Cessna 180 would hold I decided to look it up... it appears a Cessna 180 holds between 55-60 gallons.... there was a long range option that added an additional 20 or so gallons of capacity.

With that said 6 5 gallon cans would give you 1/2 tank of fuel..... what that equates to for flight time I have no idea.....

When you look at the argument that ensued over crating a official runway, and float plane base in 19 mile bay, this looks like a stunt to me, to push the limits of what is allowable, to try and prove a point. From the photo, I can see the wheels on the floats so the plane is amphibious, and could easily land at Moultonborough or Laconia airports and fuel up, which would be much more convenient.........

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

With that said 6 5 gallon cans would give you 1/2 tank of fuel..... what that equates to for flight time I have no idea.....

When you look at the argument that ensued over crating a official runway, and float plane base in 19 mile bay, this looks like a stunt to me, to push the limits of what is allowable, to try and prove a point. From the photo, I can see the wheels on the floats so the plane is amphibious, and could easily land at Moultonborough or Laconia airports and fuel up, which would be much more convenient.........

You can figure roughly 8 - 9 MPG for a Cessna 180. It depends upon load, wind, and speed which have a significant impact on fuel burn.

Maybe they fueled the airplane this way because the fuel was cheaper than what they would pay at an airport. I know some boat owners fuel their boats from cans or the containers on wheels that hold about 20 gallons just to save from paying the high price at a marina.

I am just not sure I would jump to the conclusion it is a stunt.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

So curiosity got the better of me, I am not sure what plane is picture but to understand how much fuel a Cessna 180 would hold I decided to look it up... it appears a Cessna 180 holds between 55-60 gallons.... there was a long range option that added an additional 20 or so gallons of capacity.

With that said 6 5 gallon cans would give you 1/2 tank of fuel..... what that equates to for flight time I have no idea.....

When you look at the argument that ensued over crating a official runway, and float plane base in 19 mile bay, this looks like a stunt to me, to push the limits of what is allowable, to try and prove a point. From the photo, I can see the wheels on the floats so the plane is amphibious, and could easily land at Moultonborough or Laconia airports and fuel up, which would be much more convenient.........

Pilots think of fuel burn more in time aloft than miles per gallon. If it is a 180, it probably burns about 13gals/hour at 75% cruise. So 1/2 tank would give you a little less than 2 hours flying time to land with the faa required legal reserve. Not sure how fast it flies, but I would guess you could go 200 miles.

Not sure why this guy opts to fuel like this, there are many potential reasons. My best guess is that he has an STC for autogas (car gasoline) and saves himself a couple of bucks a gallon doing it this way.

I can almost guaranty that this guy is not doing this to irritate you or someone else or as a "stunt". Think positive thoughts.

[C-Bass]

If he has the ability to run that off of Autogas, which I never knew you could convert it but, I haven't flown light GA aircraft in a long time, he is saving a ton of money. 100LL which is the normal fuel for a light piston aircraft will run $6-7 a gallon.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by C-Bass

If he has the ability to run that off of Autogas, which I never knew you could convert it but, I haven't flown light GA aircraft in a long time, he is saving a ton of money. 100LL which is the normal fuel for a light piston aircraft will run $6-7 a gallon.

Certain engines can run on regular gasoline. But he's doing a lot of work, spending a lot of time, to save $60. I'm figuring from the time he puts 6 5 gallon jugs into his car, gets the gas, drives to the lake, lugs the cans from the car to the shore, lifts them up to the wing, empties them, then brings them back to his car, he's almost 2 hours into it. 30 gallons of gas weighs 180 pounds, that's a good workout for most people.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by ITD

I can almost guaranty that this guy is not doing this to irritate you or someone else or as a "stunt". Think positive thoughts.

I didn't mean stunt necessary in a negative sense. If this person is who I believe them to be, they are doing it to show that right now breaking no laws they can re-fuel their plane in 19 Mile Bay. I personally think it is being done to see if someone complains.... While the efforts to get a runway designation, and establish a float plane base appear to have stopped. I think that has only happened in the active sense. I believe we will see a continued push for this in the future.... The more activities that can be recorded over time as happening in the area, legally the better the chance are in the future for the agenda the desire to go through...... I personally don't understand all the objections... I think that it would be a nice feature for the area.....

[ITD]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I didn't mean stunt necessary in a negative sense. If this person is who I believe them to be, they are doing it to show that right now breaking no laws they can re-fuel their plane in 19 Mile Bay. I personally think it is being done to see if someone complains.... While the efforts to get a runway designation, and establish a float plane base appear to have stopped. I think that has only happened in the active sense. I believe we will see a continued push for this in the future.... The more activities that can be recorded over time as happening in the area, legally the better the chance are in the future for the agenda the desire to go through...... I personally don't understand all the objections... I think that it would be a nice feature for the area.....

Thanks for explaining, if indeed that's what this guy is doing, he has way too much time on his hands.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by ITD

Certain engines can run on regular gasoline. But he's doing a lot of work, spending a lot of time, to save $60. I'm figuring from the time he puts 6 5 gallon jugs into his car, gets the gas, drives to the lake, lugs the cans from the car to the shore, lifts them up to the wing, empties them, then brings them back to his car, he's almost 2 hours into it. 30 gallons of gas weighs 180 pounds, that's a good workout for most people.

He’s not picking the gas up and driving it. pier 19 store has a cart of 6 5gal containers for him. They just wheel it up the road.


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[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by ITD

Pilots think of fuel burn more in time aloft than miles per gallon. If it is a 180, it probably burns about 13gals/hour at 75% cruise. So 1/2 tank would give you a little less than 2 hours flying time to land with the faa required legal reserve. Not sure how fast it flies, but I would guess you could go 200 miles. .

The 180 w/o floats tops out at 170. I’m guessing that the drag from floats probably reduces that 5 - 10 mph.


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[ITD]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

The 180 w/o floats tops out at 170. I’m guessing that the drag from floats probably reduces that 5 - 10 mph.


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I'm guessing closer to 110 knots or a little less than 120 mph with the floats on. Those introduce a lot of drag.