Tow vehicle

[Chaselady]

This may have been already discussed. We are looking to upgrade our Ford Expedition (2007). We do a lot of towing of boats, and have a large snowmobile trailer. What gearing ratio (and I am not sure if this is what we are looking for) should we be looking for to get optimal towing performance?

[Red apple]

The lower the gears the better for towing hills. With that said the lower the gears the worse the gas milage is for regular driving. I would stay with anything from 3:42-3:73 gears now these numbers may be a bit different from non GM brands. It's a difficult question as if you are buying a truck just to tow or to tie and use as a daily driver. With some more information. That may help others answer better than me.

[Slickcraft]

Now that many vehicles have 6 speed auto transmissions you can have both a low gear ratio rear axle and two levels of overdrive for very good mileage when not towing.

We have a 2012 Toyota Tundra with the 5.7L V8 that is designed for towing, rated at about 10,000 lbs. It tows the 6K lbs. horse trailer with ease. It has a 4.30 gear ratio which is very low and has great starting power. It also has two overdrive gears and a lock-up on 6th gear. Best gas mileage of any pick-up I have owned by far. My 2012 was made in the USA with the highest percentage of American made parts of any truck sold in the USA that year and in 2013 was tied with the F150 for that honor.

BTW, when I was young and even more foolish, I had a 1968 mustang with a high performance 302 V8 and 4 speed tranny. My Tundra has a better 0-60 time, what we used to call a "sleeper".

[dave603]

How much weight are you towing for the boats?
My 2011 Nissan Titan with a V8 5.7 pulls our 22 foot Sea Ray, about 5k lbs with no problems, but I'd be a little leery of pulling anything much bigger and heavier.

[gf2020]

On a Ford, you want at least their 3.55 rear end and preferably 3.73. GM has a 3.42 rear available on most truck and SUV models with a 3.73 available on the 1500 series pickups as part of their Max Towing package.

I drive a 2010 Tundra and it tows well. The numerically high 4.3 rear end is offset by the overdrive gearing in 5th and 6th gear. For towing, you put the transmission in 5 for optimal performance. I can't claim the gas mileageis great - like above - but it's not bad for a 5800 pound truck with almost 400 HP.


Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by Red apple

The lower the gears the better for towing hills. With that said the lower the gears the worse the gas milage is for regular driving. I would stay with anything from 3:42-3:73 gears now these numbers may be a bit different from non GM brands. It's a difficult question as if you are buying a truck just to tow or to tie and use as a daily driver. With some more information. That may help others answer better than me.

Apologies, Red Apple, but you've got that exactly backwards. The lower the rear end ratio, the better your fuel mileage will be and towing "performance" will be less.
Chaselady, if you are purchasing a truck, say a GM, the rear end ratio options would be 3.42, 3.73, and 4.10 (other manufacturers would be similar). A higher or sometimes called "taller" gear ratio will give better towing performance and lesser fuel economy. If you are looking to tow a four sled enclosed trailer, I wouldn't go with any ratio less than the 3.73. My personal vehicle is a 10,000 lb GVW 3/4 ton pickup with the 4.10 rear axle ratio. I can tow anything anywhere...except past a gas station!!

BT

[Red apple]

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

Apologies, Red Apple, but you've got that exactly backwards. The lower the rear end ratio, the better your fuel mileage will be and towing "performance" will be less.
Chaselady, if you are purchasing a truck, say a GM, the rear end ratio options would be 3.42, 3.73, and 4.10 (other manufacturers would be similar). A higher or sometimes called "taller" gear ratio will give better towing performance and lesser fuel economy. If you are looking to tow a four sled enclosed trailer, I wouldn't go with any ratio less than the 3.73. My personal vehicle is a 10,000 lb GVW 3/4 ton pickup with the 4.10 rear axle ratio. I can tow anything anywhere...except past a gas station!!

BT

Blue Thunder you are correct and I was backwards on this. I guess I should should double check before I hit post..

[Grandpa Redneck]

Actually as far as gear ratios go,

The lower the number the better the mileage, the higher the number the easier it will pull.
IE,
the 4.10 ratio it takes 4.10 turns of the drive shaft to = 1 full turn of the tire.
the 3.55 ratio takes 3.55 turns of the drive shaft to = 1 full turn of the tire.

the 4.10 is actually the "lower" gearing

all else being equal the vehicle with the lower numerical ratio (3.55) will get the better mileage because at the same tire speed(MPH) the engine will be running at a lower RPM

[Lakegeezer]

It really comes down to how much do you need to tow. If you are in the 4500 lb range, then a smaller SUV, like a Pilot or Explorer may suffice. There, the gas mileage approaches 20, when you are not towing. If you have to move the larger tow vehicles, then your mileage will drop to the mid-teens all year long. This matters. If you drive 20,000 miles a year, with gas at $3.40, costs at 10 MPG is $6800, 15:$4500; 18:$3800; 20:$3400. Of course, the non-tower, driving a 30 MPG vehicle will only pay $2300. This is the hidden (or not so hidden) cost of owning a boat.

[Chaselady]

Originally Posted by dave603

How much weight are you towing for the boats?
My 2011 Nissan Titan with a V8 5.7 pulls our 22 foot Sea Ray, about 5k lbs with no problems, but I'd be a little leery of pulling anything much bigger and heavier.

I will be towing up to 5000 lbs.

[Chaselady]

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

Apologies, Red Apple, but you've got that exactly backwards. The lower the rear end ratio, the better your fuel mileage will be and towing "performance" will be less.
Chaselady, if you are purchasing a truck, say a GM, the rear end ratio options would be 3.42, 3.73, and 4.10 (other manufacturers would be similar). A higher or sometimes called "taller" gear ratio will give better towing performance and lesser fuel economy. If you are looking to tow a four sled enclosed trailer, I wouldn't go with any ratio less than the 3.73. My personal vehicle is a 10,000 lb GVW 3/4 ton pickup with the 4.10 rear axle ratio. I can tow anything anywhere...except past a gas station!!

BT

This is helpful. Thanks

[Chaselady]

Originally Posted by Grandpa Redneck

Actually as far as gear ratios go,

The lower the number the better the mileage, the higher the number the easier it will pull.
IE,
the 4.10 ratio it takes 4.10 turns of the drive shaft to = 1 full turn of the tire.
the 3.55 ratio takes 3.55 turns of the drive shaft to = 1 full turn of the tire.

the 4.10 is actually the "lower" gearing

all else being equal the vehicle with the lower numerical ratio (3.55) will get the better mileage because at the same tire speed(MPH) the engine will be running at a lower RPM

Thank you that is a good example. It makes sense. I always thought the lower gear ratio the better the towing power. I was getting confused by shifting into 1st gear gave you get stronger take off or pulling performance. But with your example putting into 1st gear the ratio would be higher. Now I understand

[Chaselady]

Several have responded with posting their preference on different trucks and SUV's. I'm planning on going to the International Car Show this weekend in Boston. (I know I'm going to get a whole range of responses to this question). What SUV would you recommend I check out and why? I have had great luck with my 2007 Expedition. But I know, just like boats, there are many choices out there.
I appreciate all of your help and guidance

[Grandpa Redneck]

We originally had an 07 Explorer V6 with the 5500 lb tow package, it towed our pontoon fine, and got around 17-18 MPG when not towing around 11 when towing.
The only problem was if you caught a cross wind(the Pontoon catches a LOT of air) it would actually move the Explorer around. (caused some real pucker factor moments)

We traded the Explorer for an 09 Expedition and it has been great, If I am careful with the right foot it averages 20-21 MPG not towing (I have gotten as good as 25 MPG) and 13-14 when towing. It doesn't get moved by the wind.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by Chaselady

Several have responded with posting their preference on different trucks and SUV's. I'm planning on going to the International Car Show this weekend in Boston. (I know I'm going to get a whole range of responses to this question). What SUV would you recommend I check out and why? I have had great luck with my 2007 Expedition. But I know, just like boats, there are many choices out there.
I appreciate all of your help and guidance

If you are only towing up to 5000 lbs check out the VW touareg. I have a 2013 and it tows WAAAY better than my 2000 expedition did. It's rock solid towing my 6000lb 24' Four Winns. Tow capacity os 7700lbs
I have the gas engine so I will admit its a bit underpowered up hills towing but with the 8 speed transmission there is always a gear to keep you going the speed limit.
The diesel model will pull anything with ease and get 30+MPG when not towing. It's drives small and sporty but has very good capability.

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

If you are only towing up to 5000 lbs check out the VW touareg. I have a 2013 and it tows WAAAY better than my 2000 expedition did. It's rock solid towing my 6000lb 24' Four Winns. Tow capacity os 7700lbs
I have the gas engine so I will admit its a bit underpowered up hills towing but with the 8 speed transmission there is always a gear to keep you going the speed limit.
The diesel model will pull anything with ease and get 30+MPG when not towing. It's drives small and sporty but has very good capability.

Wow that's great information. I will check out the VW Touareg at the show. I would have never considered the VW Touareg. Do you have the diesel? Where is the closest dealer in the Lakes Region?

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by Grandpa Redneck

We originally had an 07 Explorer V6 with the 5500 lb tow package, it towed our pontoon fine, and got around 17-18 MPG when not towing around 11 when towing.
The only problem was if you caught a cross wind(the Pontoon catches a LOT of air) it would actually move the Explorer around. (caused some real pucker factor moments)

We traded the Explorer for an 09 Expedition and it has been great, If I am careful with the right foot it averages 20-21 MPG not towing (I have gotten as good as 25 MPG) and 13-14 when towing. It doesn't get moved by the wind.

I was going to check out the Explorer but with your information I would stick with the Expedition. I have a 27 foot snowmobile trailer and the wind does move it.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

Wow that's great information. I will check out the VW Touareg at the show. I would have never considered the VW Touareg. Do you have the diesel? Where is the closest dealer in the Lakes Region?

I have the gas model but the diesel is the one to have. It just cost more $$ and I was already at my max budget with the gas. Google Touareg and towing and you will get a bunch of good info. I think there is a dealer at exit 20??

How long is your sled trailer? It's a short vehicle comaperd to an Expedition so the trailer length is probably more important than the weight for the VW. The Audi Q7 is very similar and is a bit longer but has reduced (6500lb) capacity. Either can come with the same diesel.

[LIforrelaxin]

Chaselady,

To really have a meaningful conversation about tow vehicles a little more information is needed. You mention towing boats, well what kind of boat do you currently have? Are you planning to upgrade you boat at some point in time?Also what do you mean by large snowmobile trailer? How many sleds? Finally how often are you pulling these things? and How far are you pulling these items.

While the information on gear ratios here has all be good, it has to be taken with a certain grain of salt.

You realistically want a 3.73 or 4.10 gear ratio, if you are pulling something constantly... But if you are really just pulling something once in a while you might be able to get away with 3.43...

My self for instance My next truck is likely to be something with a 3.43 gear, mainly because my boat is all I really to, and it is primarily a twice a year ordeal.... So it make sense to by a truck that will give me better gas miliage... However if I was a trailer boater, with the same boat, and hauling it every weekend, I would probably get a 4.10 rear end, to save some where and tear on the engine.

If you are happy with your Expedition, I would good to Ford and give them you VIN #... They should be able to give you the spec on the rear end, and the specs of the engine.... Use that as you compare new vehicles....

[lakershaker]

We have the VW Touareg TDI diesel, and love it. Great torque, and excellent fuel efficiency. Generally I drive it a bit too fast to get optimum results, but my best long trip on a state road driving around 55mph was an average of 38mpg! Usually on the highway you can get 30mpg. The Touareg is sporty, and you forget you are driving a diesel. Also, get about 750 miles on a full tank. This is a good review of it towing a big boat (it's in the UK so right-hand drive, but otherwise the same SUV as mine). So far at 50,000 miles, I haven't had any problems at all.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3r0eerilKA

[HellRaZoR004]

Looks like the VW has the power to get up and go but does it have enough braking power to stop something that big? Stopping power is also something to consider when buying a vehicle for towing.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by HellRaZoR004

Looks like the VW has the power to get up and go but does it have enough braking power to stop something that big? Stopping power is also something to consider when buying a vehicle for towing.

The trailer should have enough brake power to stop itself and then some, and tow vehicle should be able to stop itself and then some. Think about it like a semi- the tractor does not have enough stopping power to stop 80K pounds on its own, but will in concert with the trailer brakes.
Bottom line, the trailer (over 2000 pound GVW) needs good brakes too!

[HellRaZoR004]

While I agree the trailer needs to have sufficient brakes. Just keep in mind that most boat trailers use a surge braking system. These brakes are not active when the vehicle is in reverse (really when the trailer is going backwards). So, will the vehicle brakes now be able to stop you from going in the drink?

I'm no expert so I'm just throwing this out there as something to ask the experts about.

[dave603]

Originally Posted by Chaselady

I will be towing up to 5000 lbs.

I used to tow our boat ( 5K LBs ) with a Dodge Dakota with an V8.
I didn't think it's so much gear ratio as to how the vehicle weighs and handles the tow itself.
The Dodge was "supposed" to handle as much as the bigger Dodges and it did it well for getting up and towing to speed, the problem was handling during the tow.

Didn't handle that well at all, lot's of swaying by the trailer during trying to stop when getting cut off on the highways. Sometimes, really out of hand swaying just trying to slow to avoid that. ( not the trailer brakes being a problem, paid heavy to find that out )

Never had the problems I had using the Titan, I think because it's a larger heavier truck than the Dakota was.

So just make sure what you do buy has the gumption to play on the road with a trailer with some weight to it.

[Pricestavern]

Lakershaker - what are the maintenance bills like for your VW? My wife used to drive a VW car and any maintenance on it was much more expensive than anything we'd come across before. Even little things like changing the oil filter cost an arm and a leg, it seemed.

[Charlie T]

I'm anxiously waiting for the New GMC Yukon's to arrive at the dealerships in the next 30-60 days. This is an all new upgraded truck with the Chevy Tahoe and the Caddy Escalade being on the same platform. I'm currently driving my 5th GMC Yukon Denali and I love it. 8800 lbs tow rating with tons of power, the new version is rumored to get 23+ mpg on the highway with 420 hp for towing. I'm sure you will see them on display at the auto show, be sure to check them out.

Good Luck
CT

[lakershaker]

Originally Posted by Pricestavern

Lakershaker - what are the maintenance bills like for your VW? My wife used to drive a VW car and any maintenance on it was much more expensive than anything we'd come across before. Even little things like changing the oil filter cost an arm and a leg, it seemed.

The VW came with maintenance included for the first 36k miles. Service interval is 10k (nothing in between, including oil). Paid $300 at the dealer for the 40k, but soon realized they were a ripoff for what was essentially just an oil change and inspection. I'm due on the 50k right now, and am going to a local repair shop that works on VW & Audis. So far, everything has been great. Will need to look at brakes and tires at some point in the next 10k miles.

I used to have a 1996 VW Passat VR6 5-speed, and also had very good luck with that. So far, I've been really happy with VW and would buy another one.

[mikea]

Originally Posted by lakershaker

We have the VW Touareg TDI diesel, and love it. Great torque, and excellent fuel efficiency. Generally I drive it a bit too fast to get optimum results, but my best long trip on a state road driving around 55mph was an average of 38mpg! Usually on the highway you can get 30mpg. The Touareg is sporty, and you forget you are driving a diesel. Also, get about 750 miles on a full tank. This is a good review of it towing a big boat (it's in the UK so right-hand drive, but otherwise the same SUV as mine). So far at 50,000 miles, I haven't had any problems at all.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3r0eerilKA

Excellent review... but I think it's New Zealand and not the UK ...

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by HellRaZoR004

While I agree the trailer needs to have sufficient brakes. Just keep in mind that most boat trailers use a surge braking system. These brakes are not active when the vehicle is in reverse (really when the trailer is going backwards). So, will the vehicle brakes now be able to stop you from going in the drink?

I'm no expert so I'm just throwing this out there as something to ask the experts about.

The brakes are great. 6 Piston calipers on the front. Same as the Porsche Cayenne SUV. They are certainly WAAAAY better than my old Expedition brakes. The only thing with the VW is its a reasonable short wheelbase. It tows, and stops, my 24' Four winns great. I can't provide an opinion on a 27' sled trailer though....
If money is no object, look at the Porsche Cayenne. You can get it with a V8 and air suspesion as well. Your probably at $90K at theat point though

[pcmc]

Originally Posted by Charlie T

I'm anxiously waiting for the New GMC Yukon's to arrive at the dealerships in the next 30-60 days. This is an all new upgraded truck with the Chevy Tahoe and the Caddy Escalade being on the same platform. I'm currently driving my 5th GMC Yukon Denali and I love it. 8800 lbs tow rating with tons of power, the new version is rumored to get 23+ mpg on the highway with 420 hp for towing. I'm sure you will see them on display at the auto show, be sure to check them out.

Good Luck
CT

Someday I would like to get one of those, to pricy for now. I went to a Chevy dealer this past fall, Sept 13. My son saw a truck he was awed by and asked if we could stop. We had just been to the Big E and visited the Chevy display so he was car expert now. Anyway, we struck up a conversation with a salesman and I asked about the gas mileage on the trucks and vans and I wanted to know why the mileage hasn't improved much. I said I thought the Government required higher gas mileage from trucks. His answer stunned me when he told me that a loop hole in the system requires that the manufacturer must meet an improved gas mileage and not each vehicle. He said by releasing the electric Volt model, this more than met their required average and not to expect mileage to get any better. I was bummed to say the least.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by pcmc

Someday I would like to get one of those, to pricy for now. I went to a Chevy dealer this past fall, Sept 13. My son saw a truck he was awed by and asked if we could stop. We had just been to the Big E and visited the Chevy display so he was car expert now. Anyway, we struck up a conversation with a salesman and I asked about the gas mileage on the trucks and vans and I wanted to know why the mileage hasn't improved much. I said I thought the Government required higher gas mileage from trucks. His answer stunned me when he told me that a loop hole in the system requires that the manufacturer must meet an improved gas mileage and not each vehicle. He said by releasing the electric Volt model, this more than met their required average and not to expect mileage to get any better. I was bummed to say the least.

Not perfect but the system does work though. Without CAFE (Corporate average Fuel economy) you probably would not have the volt and cruze diesel.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

This may help with towing capacity questions for any vehicle: http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-towing-guides/.

Also, people need to be aware of the hitch capacities for the hitch on their tow vehicle. Nowadays, it seems they're putting combination hitches on many vehicles that come with two specifications depending on whether you're using a weight-carrying hitch or a weight-distributing hitch.

For instance, my 2011 Ford F250 came with a Class III/IV hitch. For weight-carrying, it was a Class III with limits of 600 lb tongue weight and 6,000 lb trailer weight. For weight-distributing, it was a Class IV hitch with limits of 1,000 lb tongue weight and 10,000 lb trailer weight. My 25ft Baja and trailer weigh in at approx. 7,200 lbs with a measured tongue weight of 656 lbs. I'm not using a weight-distributing hitch so I removed the factory receiver hitch and installed a Class V Curt hitch (weight-carrying, 1,500 lb tongue, 15,000 lb trailer). With a Rapid Hitch adjustable height aluminum hitch rated for 1,500 lb tongue weight, I'm good to tow. Strangely, the tow guides linked above tell me my truck will tow 12,200 lbs but the factory hitch on the truck doesn't come close to those numbers (go figure!). This is why people have to be aware of the hitch limitations on their vehicle!

One more comment about axle ratios. I've seen many discussions where people were arguing about high and low axle ratios. Grandpa Redneck explained it the best and I'd like to take it a bit further.

The lower the number the better the mileage, the higher the number the easier it will pull.

A high numerical ratio (4.10) is considered LOW gearing while a low numerical value (3.23) is considered HIGH gearing. Depending on the situation, what's considered high or low can vary. Tow vehicles would want low gearing (high numerical ratio) for pulling power while an economy car would want high gearing (low numerical ratio) for fuel economy. Think of 1st or low gear in a manual transmission; it'll get the vehicle moving but you wouldn't want to drive all day in low gear. High gear is just the opposite; you'll want to drive all day in high but it's just about impossible to get the vehicle moving from a dead stop.

Lastly, maybe it's just me but I don't think I'd trust a VW Touareg with 7700 lbs, that seems like a lot of weight for such a short wheelbase vehicle. Not to mention, I wouldn't want to pay the maintenance bills on that rig once it gets a few years on it either.

Happy towing!

[pcmc]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

Not perfect but the system does work though. Without CAFE (Corporate average Fuel economy) you probably would not have the volt and cruze diesel.

My point was vehicles like the Volt falsely boost the average mpg "on paper" for the manufacturer so they met the required guide lines. So now the manufacturer does not need to improve "each vehicles" mpg, therefore bigger gas engines no longer have incentive to achieve higher gas mileage. This system maybe working, but not for the average consumer, imo.
I have spoken to many who like the electric cars, I'm one of them.
Again, imo, the cars aren't practical yet. The size and range of travel, and the overall use, just don't seem to cut it yet. One person I know that had a Volt got rid of it in a few months and bought a Tesla. He says he loves the car, but you can't go anywhere because you are so limited to distance and stressed out about getting stranded before you can make it back. This was during the summer without any concerns of the winter months.
Being the towing thread another issue regarding the electric cars is now I need two vehicles so I can tow my boat. Where is the savings?
(4Fun, I'm just replying in general, NOT arguing with you.)

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by pcmc

My point was vehicles like the Volt falsely boost the average mpg "on paper" for the manufacturer so they met the required guide lines. So now the manufacturer does not need to improve "each vehicles" mpg, therefore bigger gas engines no longer have incentive to achieve higher gas mileage. This system maybe working, but not for the average consumer, imo.
I have spoken to many who like the electric cars, I'm one of them.
Again, imo, the cars aren't practical yet. The size and range of travel, and the overall use, just don't seem to cut it yet. One person I know that had a Volt got rid of it in a few months and bought a Tesla. He says he loves the car, but you can't go anywhere because you are so limited to distance and stressed out about getting stranded before you can make it back. This was during the summer without any concerns of the winter months.
Being the towing thread another issue regarding the electric cars is now I need two vehicles so I can tow my boat. Where is the savings?
(4Fun, I'm just replying in general, NOT arguing with you.)

The Volt powrtrain seems like the best of both worlds. Except for styling. If the Tesla looked like the volt they would be out of business.

If the automakers make a 3 row SUV with 7500LB towing capacity with a Volt/Diesel powertrain you would have it all. Might cost $100K though....