West Alton Marina manager arrest for alleged sex crimes

[nvmbr9]

Anyone know the full story here?

[mcdude]

Here's the link from the daily Sun
https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...59aca1894.html

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by mcdude

Here's the link from the daily Sun
https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...59aca1894.html

I had seen this two days ago but I was very hesitant to post due to the nature of the charges against the employee


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[DickR]

I hope this forum and the media in general will be very careful not to delve too deeply into this, and will be super sensitive to the privacy of the victims. Let the court deal with the perpetrator, quietly (and harshly if found guilty).

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by DickR

I hope this forum and the media in general will be very careful not to delve too deeply into this, and will be super sensitive to the privacy of the victims. Let the court deal with the perpetrator, quietly (and harshly if found guilty).

I agree, hence I did not start a thread. Time to end the discussion here.


Alan

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

I agree, hence I did not start a thread. Time to end the discussion here.

Certainly there should be no identification of the young victims, but the alleged perpetrator should not "get a bye."

As details become available and are made public I see nothing wrong with reporting them here, as this story clearly is of public interest.

[TiltonBB]

The owner, Brian A. Fortier, 50, was indicted by a Belknap County Grand Jury on April 21, on several felonies.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...9dce2a182.html

[Descant]

We've been through this before when the courts told a business owner to divest and not associate with others in the business. Nothing to se here, folks. Move along.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Descant

We've been through this before when the courts told a business owner to divest and not associate with others in the business. Nothing to se here, folks. Move along.

That could happen here. There are already inquiries happening by at least one other marina owner should the property be sold.

At this point it might be nice to see a change of ownership. After front page stories, and whatever else comes out in public as the legal process continues, it will be difficult to move beyond this.

[tis]

Where was the other owner or owners when all this was happening?

[GilfordSonny]

The owner was arrested on similar charges as the manager was last year. And if the allegations are proved to be true I think it would be a little slice of justice if the alleged victims end up owning the marina, or the cash that a sale would generate.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by GilfordSonny

The owner was arrested on similar charges as the manager was last year. And if the allegations are proved to be true I think it would be a little slice of justice if the alleged victims end up owning the marina, or the cash that a sale would generate.

This is one of those funny things where it's a shock that there are two of them, and then on reflection it makes perfect sense that they live together. On the other side of the equation, we should not be surprised if there are more victims than we know of today.

[tis]

Originally Posted by GilfordSonny

The owner was arrested on similar charges as the manager was last year. And if the allegations are proved to be true I think it would be a little slice of justice if the alleged victims end up owning the marina, or the cash that a sale would generate.

On WMUR it said ONE of the owners, so I wonder where the other owner (s) were when all this was happening. And yes, apparently the manager and the one owner are a couple.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by tis

On WMUR it said ONE of the owners, so I wonder where the other owner (s) were when all this was happening. And yes, apparently the manager and the one owner are a couple.

The other owner is Fortier's sister but she has a different last name.

[tis]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

The other owner is Fortier's sister but she has a different last name.

Ok thanks. Well, sister and brother, no wonder.

[lagoon]

Originally Posted by Descant

We've been through this before when the courts told a business owner to divest and not associate with others in the business. Nothing to se here, folks. Move along.

This does not surprise me at all. I have dealt with him and his partner and felt the overtones of what has happened here. He was particularly rude last time I was at his business and will never go back there no matter what unless he's not involved. I will say his sister was very gracious but that does not make up for him. Should this all be proven true he will no longer be in the marina business I am quite sure.

I do remember the statement below from the owner. Now it appears this statement was issued while he was alleged to be asking victims to not report the crimes accurately, which itself is a crime.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

During the same time that Fortier was alleged to have been pressuring witnesses to withhold information from investigators, he provided the following statement to The Laconia Daily Sun:

​​“Our family is shocked and deeply saddened by the disturbing allegations against former employee John Murray," wrote Fortier. “Our hearts are broken and our thoughts and prayers are with everyone affected. We have hired outside counsel and consultants to undertake a thorough review of this matter. We will use this information to adapt policies and procedures that will ensure a safe environment for employees and the public. We will continue to carry on the vision of our parents and grandparents and dedicate our lives to making West Alton Marina a fun, loving, family destination.”

[TiltonBB]

Well, you knew this was coming, it was just a matter of time.

"The suit also alleges that employees (including the plaintiff) that spurned Murray’s advances were punished by receiving harder responsibilities and being denied work hours. Those that capitulated were rewarded with “favorable performance reviews, assigning easier responsibilities, assigning more and better work hours, and in other ways.”

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...84ab0a2bd.html

[Woodsy]

Looks like this kid's family is smart... Not sure what the liability limits are, but I am sure this is just the first of many lawsuits.

I don't think this is the last of it... Should be interesting to see who else this tangled web might ensnare.



Woodsy

[codeman671]

This one may be hard to recover from. I would imagine that their business certainly won't be affected much as slips are so scarce, but would think this will hurt their ability to hire seasonal employees which will trickle down to customer treatment. Probably some major conflict within the family/partners as well. Buyout or complete sale?

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Probably some major conflict within the family/partners as well. Buyout or complete sale?

I know nothing of this family and their wealth but unless they're very well-heeled he'll probably need to sell his interest in the business to pay for top-notch attorneys to defend him.

[TiltonBB]

A co-owner of the West Alton Marina, who was recently charged with sexual assault, has been jailed for allegedly having unsupervised contact with a minor in violation of the terms of his bail.

On Monday Superior Court Judge Jacki Smith ordered Fortier to be held at the county jail until he was outfitted with an electronic monitoring ankle bracelet and placed under the oversight of the Correction Department’s pretrial services office.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...97e28bdd6.html

[FlyingScot]

I'm good with innocent until proven guilty, but this bail is a joke. First, it's only $10K for a guy facing serious time and plenty of assets. Second, he violates bail in a way that's in direct relation to the case (as opposed to, say, drug possession or a bar fight), and they're going to let him right back out?

[TiltonBB]

Now you know what happened to the Gilford Police Chief and why he resigned.

One of the suits alleges that Murray told the plaintiff that it would be useless for him to go to police because he was having sex with the Gilford police chief and another officer and so was “untouchable.”

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...3d4720ec6.html

[mcdude]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

I agree, hence I did not start a thread. Time to end the discussion here.
Alan

Just a comment: This topic has been explored appropriately and with prudence IMHO. No names have been named and no ugly off-topic comments have been made. I applaud you, fellow forumites.

[bchbum]

Hide your kids if you have a slip there

[steve-on-mark]

We can all speculate until we're blue in the face, but I feel like some things are better left unsaid. I'm sure that whoever will be investigating this nonsense will do a good and thorough job, all the facts will come out, and justice will fall where it may.

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[LoveLakeLife]

Lol The opposite resulted in the safe spaces, no hurt feelings, participation trophy generation.


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

Lol The opposite resulted in the safe spaces, no hurt feelings, participation trophy generation.


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Ummm...you know that there is a lot of space between beating your kids and having zero consequences, right?!

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[LoveLakeLife]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Ummm...you know that there is a lot of space between beating your kids and having zero consequences, right?!

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Ummmmmmmmmm yes I’m aware, Think. I think everybody is. lol


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[Poor Richard]

I'd a take safe spaces any day over a kid being in 5th grade and lying to his teacher and guidance counselor about how the bruises ended up across his face, knowing full well that if he did tell the truth he'd likely lose his brother and sister to the state's child care services.

I'd also take participation trophies and no hurt feelings over a kid getting whacked with Lincoln Logs, cooking spoons or just generally getting an ass whooping usually while being held down in the process.

I'd suspect that young man would eventually learn that he's not worth experiencing the love that so many of his friends seemed lucky enough to experience and from that, I'd guess he may end up making some incredibly poor choices as time went on because, who really cares anyway?

Yeah, the beatings definitely work, absolutely no mental scars.

I can only imagine what would happen if the individual that has been described above were to work at a place such as WAM.

[LoveLakeLife]

Originally Posted by Poor Richard

I'd a take safe spaces any day over a kid being in 5th grade and lying to his teacher and guidance counselor about how the bruises ended up across his face, knowing full well that if he did tell the truth he'd likely lose his brother and sister to the state's child care services.

I'd also take participation trophies and no hurt feelings over a kid getting whacked with Lincoln Logs, cooking spoons or just generally getting an ass whooping usually while being held down in the process.

I'd suspect that young man would eventually learn that he's not worth experiencing the love that so many of his friends seemed lucky enough to experience and from that, I'd guess he may end up making some incredibly poor choices as time went on because, who really cares anyway?

Yeah, the beatings definitely work, absolutely no mental scars.

I can only imagine what would happen if the individual that has been described above were to work at a place such as WAM.

An elementary school having a “guidance counselor” is a problem in itself. Lincoln Logs and cooking spoons?? Amateur hour, they’d practically be a reward. Mental “scarring” is internally manufactured and then whines about like “stress”. Non-snowflakes choose their own attitude.

Is the implication really that the WAM people can blame their childhood for consciously deciding to do certain acts as adults? That would be a strange outlook.


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[John Mercier]

Do elementary schools have guidance counselors?
I know that I had one in my high school upperclassman years as the school felt it necessary to get the best outcome after graduation.

Because I don't think I have ever had bruises...

But to be fair... eating some of the bar of soap I found much worse, I think that may have taken some years off my life.

[Poor Richard]

Mr Mercier - perhaps "guidance counselor" isn't the proper term? It's really anyone's guess as to what his role actually was. Could have been that the school called someone in, hard to say for sure. My apologies if that phrasing was misleading.

[Poor Richard]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

An elementary school having a “guidance counselor” is a problem in itself. Lincoln Logs and cooking spoons?? Amateur hour, they’d practically be a reward. Mental “scarring” is internally manufactured and then whines about like “stress”. Non-snowflakes choose their own attitude.

Is the implication really that the WAM people can blame their childhood for consciously deciding to do certain acts as adults? That would be a strange outlook.


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Well, consider yourself lucky that your whoopings only resulted in a mid double-digit IQ.

My post had absolutely nothing to do with what the offenders at WAM can blame on their childhood. What I outlined in my post was a child who grew up not knowing his self worth. Are you going to need explanation beyond the combination of a low-esteemed youth and a work environment such what was going on at WAM?

What you got growing up was a warming of the ass. What I describe in my previous post is only a smidgen of things you've never experienced yourself throughout your entire childhood.

I had a lot more to say but, it's just not worth it. Your minimizing of the examples in my previous post only goes to show how lucky you were. Be glad about that.

[LoveLakeLife]

Originally Posted by Poor Richard

Well, consider yourself lucky that your whoopings only resulted in a mid double-digit IQ.

My post had absolutely nothing to do with what the offenders at WAM can blame on their childhood. What I outlined in my post was a child who grew up not knowing his self worth. Are you going to need explanation beyond the combination of a low-esteemed youth and a work environment such what was going on at WAM?

What you got growing up was a warming of the ass. What I describe in my previous post is only a smidgen of things you've never experienced yourself throughout your entire childhood.

I had a lot more to say but, it's just not worth it. Your minimizing of the examples in my previous post only goes to show how lucky you were. Be glad about that.

haha So now you believe I have a low IQ because you disagree with something I said? Typical level of argument from an armchair psychologist fixated on “self esteem.” “Self esteem” by definition is established by oneself, not outside influences.

John, I can empathize with the aftertaste of a bar of soap along with the immediate sensation of pepper on the tongue. lol


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[Poor Richard]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

haha So now you believe I have a low IQ because you disagree with something I said? Typical level of argument from an armchair psychologist fixated on “self esteem.” “Self esteem” by definition is established by oneself, not outside influences.

Only thing I believe is that the quality of content in your last few posts is quite low. I am simply responding accordingly.

Again, you are more lucky than you realize with regards to your punishments and continuing to minimize the experiences of others along with your strong opinion of things you know nothing about all comes out as a person with relatively low IQ. :shrug:

[LoveLakeLife]

Originally Posted by Poor Richard

Only thing I believe is that the quality of content in your last few posts is quite low. I am simply responding accordingly.

Again, you are more lucky than you realize with regards to your punishments and continuing to minimize the experiences of others along with your strong opinion of things you know nothing about all comes out as a person with relatively low IQ. :shrug:

I can’t influence your internal reaction to someone else’s opinion. I can only only give your opinion of my opinion all the weight that it deserves. I offer no assessment of your, or anyone’’s, IQ.


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[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

Lol The opposite resulted in the safe spaces, no hurt feelings, participation trophy generation.


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There is a high correlation between physical abuse in childhood and going on to commit abuse against children and animals in childhood through adulthood. Children who are abused with physical punishments do not grow up to become competent parents.

Regarding guidance counselors, many elementary schools have a psychologist on staff.

[John Mercier]

You mean people that have been physically abused are more often to take on a victim-mentality? And that they may act out to reassert their control?

[Descant]

OK. OK! Time for all the amateur Psychologists and Psychiatrists to put down your mouse and post something that is related to WAM, or start your own thread about corporal punishment. Hopefully on a non-Winnipesaukee Forum. Alternatively, get out behind the woodshed and cut a switch.

[John Mercier]

I'm sort of wondering whether the response to the WAM situation is what this is.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

You mean people that have been physically abused are more often to take on a victim-mentality? And that they may act out to reassert their control?

No. I mean that they conceive of human relationships in terms of pain and cruelty and then go on to imitate what was done to them, perhaps in worse form. Same for cruelty to animals. The evidence is that very early experiences of abuse rather than love change the brain chemistry.

[LoveLakeLife]

It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent. Now I will take Descant’s advice and focus on the great weather and some jet skiing.


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[Garcia]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent. Now I will take Descant’s advice and focus on the great weather and some jet skiing.


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I work in an elementary school and what I find much more problematic than the presence of psychologists is the need some students have for mental health (and other) services coupled with the lack of availability. Blame whoever you want for the need, but in my first hand experience it is very real.

That said, round one of waterskiing was great, round two, with some wakeboarding thrown in, starts now!

[mcdude]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent.


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Middle Schools and High Schools have school psychologists as well. As a (retired) school psychologist I'd be curious to hear you expound on this "problem".

[John Mercier]

It means that we have a lot more ''damage'' in the shadows of our society than we know about.

I always felt when growing up that my grandparents, no matter how ruthless others thought them to be, were greatly concerned about what would happen should I have to face a Great Recession or war with the restrictions of WWII and not have the mental hardness necessary to cope.

[LoveLakeLife]

Originally Posted by mcdude

Middle Schools and High Schools have school psychologists as well. As a (retired) school psychologist I'd be curious to hear you expound on this "problem".

I would echo what I believe is John’s observation: mental hardness. For hundreds of years no one heard of and there were no such things as school psychologists or “grief counselors.” If someone truly were to need some help in that area, it would be arranged by the family, not the government. “Toughen up, stiff upper lip, ‘sticks and stones,’ ‘walk it off,” were all sensical attitudes for generation after generation of normal Americans before and since the Founding. Now look what’s happened.

It was a great day to be on the lake. Skiing next weekend!


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[John Mercier]

It could be we're noticing more abuse than training.

I was never punished for anything that I knew beforehand that I was going to be punished for should I partake in the action.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

I would echo what I believe is John’s observation: mental hardness. For hundreds of years no one heard of and there were no such things as school psychologists or “grief counselors.” If someone truly were to need some help in that area, it would be arranged by the family, not the government.

And then along came Freud, who ruined a perfectly healthy society by discovering some of the reasons why people do the odd things they do and feel as they do. Actually, mental illness was known to the ancient Greeks. It might not be a good idea to extrapolate your personal experience to most people. If it were true that families were arranging psychological help for family members who need it, we would not be the pathological society that we are.

An interesting read is "Love at Goon Park: Harry Harlow and the Science of Affection" https://www.amazon.com/Love-Goon-Par.../dp/046502601X It explains how the parenting style of the early to mid 20th century evolved: lack of understanding in the 19th century of how germs were spread led parents to withhold physical affection from children out of fear of contaminating them with germs. This resulted in a hands-off parenting style that was passed from generation to generation. Your "mental hardness" philosophy is an extension of that historical trend. Harry Harlow's experiments with baby monkeys showed how that parenting style led to severe pathology due to the lack of bonding between parents and children. This was the beginning of attachment science. That's right, psychology is a science.

[John Mercier]

That is fair... but we went through quite a bit when I was young because teachers didn't want to accept that I was an introvert.

We then had to go through it with my nieces and nephews because someone at school placed it in their heads that the terrorist on 9/11 would come for them.

While it is nice that those outside the family are concerned... once the problem is determined, they have to learn to accept it.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

We then had to go through it with my nieces and nephews because someone at school placed it in their heads that the terrorist on 9/11 would come for them.

In the 1960s it was placed in children's heads that the Russians were coming for us via a nuclear attack from the air. We had regular air raid drills where we hid under our desks. No one thought about the emotional impact on young children of the news that we were going to be killed. I had nightmares about being bombed by the Russians for 30 years. Sadly this reality is being experienced by Ukranian children today.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

In the 1960s it was placed in children's heads that the Russians were coming for us via a nuclear attack from the air. We had regular air raid drills where we hid under our desks. No one thought about the emotional impact on young children of the news that we were going to be killed. I had nightmares about being bombed by the Russians for 30 years. Sadly this reality is being experienced by Ukranian children today.

I vividly remember those drills as well!! Always wondered what good hiding under a desk would do!

Dan

[garysanfran]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

In the 1960s it was placed in children's heads that the Russians were coming for us via a nuclear attack from the air. We had regular air raid drills where we hid under our desks. No one thought about the emotional impact on young children of the news that we were going to be killed. I had nightmares about being bombed by the Russians for 30 years. Sadly this reality is being experienced by Ukranian children today.

I went through the same, only my school had a bomb-shelter. I also remember my history and geography books always showed photos of the Soviet Union in black & white. The result was a subliminal indoctrination that those citizens had no color in their lives.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

I went through the same, only my school had a bomb-shelter. I also remember my history and geography books always showed photos of the Soviet Union in black & white. The result was a subliminal indoctrination that those citizens had no color in their lives.

And mostly they dont!

But you make a very interesting point about how we are all manipulated from an early age to believe whatever someone wants to think ;-)

[LoveLakeLife]

Originally Posted by mcdude

Middle Schools and High Schools have school psychologists as well. As a (retired) school psychologist I'd be curious to hear you expound on this "problem".

McDude I have no doubt of your skills and caring as a psychologist. My commentary was on the broader subject. I’ve enjoyed your posts for years.


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[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent.

I used to be a teacher, K-12. In elementary schools it was obvious in kindergarten and grade 1 which children were already handicapped by negative conditions in their homes, whether abuse, emotional deprivation, physical deprivation, etc. I forget what the protocol was for notifying parents, but I assure you that there are many children in elementary schools who have a great need for emotional support in and outside the classroom. Psychological support is a way to try to level the playing field so that these children can have an equal chance at success in school. School psychologists and social workers try to educate parents about children's emotional and developmental needs and enlist them in creating a healthy home environment. The whole family benefits.

[thinkxingu]

On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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They could give out free gas and you wont catch me going there! Too much of a "stain" on the map for me and until that stain is fully removed from there (which it is not!) I refuse to support it in any way.

The best thing that could happen to that place is it is sold to highest bidder and the all the proceeds go to the victims...

Dan

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

They could give out free gas and you wont catch me going there! Too much of a "stain" on the map for me and until that stain is fully removed from there (which it is not!) I refuse to support it in any way.

The best thing that could happen to that place is it is sold to highest bidder and the all the proceeds go to the victims...

Dan

Bravo, well said!

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

They could give out free gas and you wont catch me going there! Too much of a "stain" on the map for me and until that stain is fully removed from there (which it is not!) I refuse to support it in any way.

The best thing that could happen to that place is it is sold to highest bidder and the all the proceeds go to the victims...

Dan

My wife said it was a terrible joke, but y'all seem less offended by it then as an opportunity for virtue signaling.

Of course nobody wants to directly support whomever was involved in this situation—it's horrible.

There is the the reality, however, of all the others involved—people who could lose their investments, other owners, the workers themselves, etc.

I'm nowhere near WAM, but if I were I'm not so sure I'd be boycotting them just yet.

I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?

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[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

My wife said it was a terrible joke, but y'all seem less offended by it then as an opportunity for virtue signaling.

Of course nobody wants to directly support whomever was involved in this situation—it's horrible.

There is the the reality, however, of all the others involved—people who could lose their investments, other owners, the workers themselves, etc.

I'm nowhere near WAM, but if I were I'm not so sure I'd be boycotting them just yet.

I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?

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Unfortunately Think, only the "tip of the iceberg" has been exposed thus far. There will be a LOT more coming out as the investigation continues...

What bothers me the most is how many people closed their eyes to what was going on there. It's sickening as it doesn't just involve the two people you see in the headlines...

The safety of our local children working there should of been a priority and it wasn't!! No one wants to talk about it because it involves kids... Well I call BS on that! Everyone was so concerned and talking about the safety of kids at lake camps when the almighty speed limit debates were going on but now their safety can't be talked about??....Really??

Dan

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Unfortunately Think, only the "tip of the iceberg" has been exposed thus far. There will be a LOT more coming out as the investigation continues...

What bothers me the most is how many people closed their eyes to what was going on there. It's sickening as it doesn't just involve the two people you see in the headlines...

The safety of our local children working there should of been a priority and it wasn't!! No one wants to talk about it because it involves kids... Well I call BS on that! Everyone was so concerned and talking about the safety of kids at lake camps when the almighty speed limit debates were going on but now their safety can't be talked about??....Really??

Dan

Again well said, cant add to this.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Unfortunately Think, only the "tip of the iceberg" has been exposed thus far. There will be a LOT more coming out as the investigation continues...

What bothers me the most is how many people closed their eyes to what was going on there. It's sickening as it doesn't just involve the two people you see in the headlines...

The safety of our local children working there should of been a priority and it wasn't!! No one wants to talk about it because it involves kids... Well I call BS on that! Everyone was so concerned and talking about the safety of kids at lake camps when the almighty speed limit debates were going on but now their safety can't be talked about??....Really??

Dan

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good (wo)men to do nothing."

It seems like this applies to sooo many things these days.

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[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?

Really? You don't think you've seen and heard enough evidence? Do you think the kids are lying?

I don't care if you choose to buy stuff there, that's your choice. But when you say "does anybody have a confirmed story and participants", aren't you suggesting the kids that have come forward are not being truthful?

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by LikeLakes

Really? You don't think you've seen and heard enough evidence? Do you think the kids are lying?

I don't care if you choose to buy stuff there, that's your choice. But when you say "does anybody have a confirmed story and participants", aren't you suggesting the kids that have come forward are not being truthful?

Not at all—I'm talking in terms of scope and who was responsible/negligent.

There are a lot of people relying on WAM to remain in business—whether I choose to support that or not (through my spending) would require knowing whom doesn't deserve my support.

For example, if two people are responsible and dozens aren't, that would be much different than a host of leadership AND employees covering up.

I don't know those things at this point.

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[LikeLakes]

What I think we know, again not convicted in a court of law but enough evidence for me as a citizen, is that one of the owners and the general manager were abusing kids. That's enough for me. I realized others have jobs there and respect your view that you don't want them to be hurt if they were not involved. But I feel like the reward of doing business there goes to the owners and hopefully they will be removed, new ownership will retain the good employees, but in the meantime I'm not going there.

[Woodsy]

Certainly there is a lot to digest here....

This is a no win situation for many people... and I am pretty sure there is more of this scandal to come. How much did the other owners & employees know? Who else may be implicated?

The current employees and customers are no doubt very conflicted about all of the accusations. I cannot imagine what the employees are thinking.. they worked with these people every day. Unfortunately, because there is a lack of slips available on the lake, most customers cannot vote with their wallet and are going to have to stay put.

Next up will be the inevitable bankruptcy filing (to protect whatever assets they can from the lawsuits) and subsequent fire sale that goes with it.

Woodsy

[Lakeboater]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

My wife said it was a terrible joke, but y'all seem less offended by it then as an opportunity for virtue signaling.

Of course nobody wants to directly support whomever was involved in this situation—it's horrible.

There is the the reality, however, of all the others involved—people who could lose their investments, other owners, the workers themselves, etc.

I'm nowhere near WAM, but if I were I'm not so sure I'd be boycotting them just yet.

I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?

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Apparently you just don’t get it.
The owners are the problem.
I doubt the general workers are involved in ownership.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Lakeboater

Apparently you just don’t get it.

The owners are the problem.

I doubt the general workers are involved in ownership.

Apparently.

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[wentworthwhitbreadIII]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Apparently.

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It would be nice if the former Gilford Police Chief would shed some light on what his alleged involvement was with the former manager.


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[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by wentworthwhitbreadIII

It would be nice if the former Gilford Police Chief would shed some light on what his alleged involvement was with the former manager.

What he did in his time off is NOYB so long as it was legal and consensual.

As far of boycotting WAM: LOL. What other convenient, available options are there?

None.

[mowtorman]

Is the key benign existential indifference? Like Freddie Mercury said... nothing really matters.

We could really roll with it.

Are public officials held to a higher moral standard?.....watch the news it doesn't appear so.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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Yes the next owner will get really nice grounds and facilities!

Lets just hope that they are better people,,,

[Lakeboater]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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I do understand how people that keep their boat at WAM remain there due to lack of available slips. I do not understand how anyone not tied to a slip would support them by purchasing cheap gas and wanting anything for the kids from them.

I’m with Dan on this…..completely agree

[LoveLakeLife]

Richard is an honorable, upstanding guy whom we can all be proud to have as a fellow Forum member. What a nice surprise.


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

Richard is an honorable, upstanding guy whom we can all be proud to have as a fellow Forum member. What a nice surprise.


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I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but he—along with iShoot, Phantom, 8gv, Garcia, Joey, Descant, and a few others I'm presently spacing on—have all reached out behind the scenes and offered help and/or advice in the past.

It's a pretty awesome community here, for sure.

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[LoveLakeLife]

Sailin, if you read the lines (no need for venturing between them), Richard was not apologizing for his opinion. Neither he nor anyone else should be expected to do so. He was apologizing for his tenor, and I was glad to accept the apology immediately upon reading it. You have your own opinions, as you should, but you imply that everyone should agree with them. That’s where we diverge.


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[dickiej]

Here’s where we’re at in society: Former Facebook exec: "I think we have created tools that are ripping apart the social fabric of how society works. The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops we’ve created are destroying how society works. No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth. You are being programmed

Social media has completely changed the way we interact in society. I was taught that reasonable people can disagree reasonably. Not any more. Increasingly, more and more people (particularly young people) need the instant feedback from “likes” or “comments “ and they fall apart, lose their impulse control, and lash out if they don’t accumulate enough positive responses.
We are doomed unless this ends.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by dickiej

Here’s where we’re at in society: Former Facebook exec: "I think we have created tools that are ripping apart the social fabric of how society works. The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops we’ve created are destroying how society works. No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth." You are being programmed. Social media has completely changed the way we interact in society. I was taught that reasonable people can disagree reasonably. Not any more. Increasingly, more and more people (particularly young people) need the instant feedback from “likes” or “comments “ and they fall apart, lose their impulse control, and lash out if they don’t accumulate enough positive responses. We are doomed unless this ends.

I don't disagree with what you've written, but I just want to point out how difficult it is to chose the right response to nefarious actions. Our response is in part generational. As a baby boomer, I was actively taught by my high school and college teachers to respond loudly and decisively to things like the Vietnam War and racism. I believe this was in part due to the passive response of the world, including the United States, to the Holocaust. Once we learned what happened in the Holocaust, we realized that individuals and nations should have intervened forcibly much earlier rather than agreeing to "disagree reasonably." Moral and ethical reasoning was actively taught in high school and college curriculums.

By the 1990s the pendulum swung in the opposite direction toward valuing positive communication and working cooperatively in groups. This was very actively taught in my graduate teacher education program. Suddenly baby boomers who had been taught to "speak truth to power" and stand up for right moral conduct were called out for not playing nicely in the sandbox.

Today there has been an incredible increase in social aggression, including in social media. You quote, "No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth." The question is, what's the appropriate response when you witness misinformation, misconduct, etc.? While civil discourse and cooperation are noble goals, today people are indicating that they don't want to find common ground with people whose views and conduct they find abhorrent. My personal view is that certain much larger goals, like preserving the planet and preventing the collapse of our democracy, are more important than maintaining peace with your neighbors.

I witnessed an example of this in my own town when one group of citizens waged a successful long, loud battle to achieve an environmental goal while another group---who would have been directly negatively impacted if that campaign had failed---stood by and did nothing, in the interests of keeping the peace. Today the silent ones who benefited from that win (it positively impacted their property values!) probably still think ill of the "strident" campaigners who invested hundreds of hours in the town's future. Don't forget that we are here in this country today because of the actions of a group of strident dissenters 250 years ago!

I don't want to be a passive bystander. Sure, Plan A is to disagree politely. That's easier to do when the issue is whether marijuana should be legalized. It's much harder when the issue is whether climate change is real and caused by humans, or whether Covid-19 is real and dangerous. Then I move to Plan B, which prioritizes the issues and their consequences over keeping the peace with people who spread misinformation. That explains why I might express strong opposition to climate change deniers, pandemic deniers, and abuse deniers who think that having psychologists in schools is a bad thing.

Why is all this related to what happened at the marina? Because sexual predators always pressure their victims to not tell the truth and in past eras, even family members were complicit in hiding the truth to avoid public shame and "keep the peace." Keeping the peace sounds good on the surface but it fails in the case of evil mistruths.

Finally, there is probably a place in society for peace makers and dissenters who confront evil. I guess you can choose which kind of person you want to be. Hopefully both, but it's a difficult balancing act. All of the above is played out in this forum, so the conflicts should come as no surprise.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by dickiej

Here’s where we’re at in society: Former Facebook exec: "I think we have created tools that are ripping apart the social fabric of how society works. The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops we’ve created are destroying how society works. No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth. You are being programmed

Social media has completely changed the way we interact in society. I was taught that reasonable people can disagree reasonably. Not any more. Increasingly, more and more people (particularly young people) need the instant feedback from “likes” or “comments “ and they fall apart, lose their impulse control, and lash out if they don’t accumulate enough positive responses.
We are doomed unless this ends.

Social media is just being used as a scapegoat for bad behavior.
I see the same thing everyday in the real world.

[dickiej]

But that's the whole point...social media is causing the everyday behavior you are talking about.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by dickiej

But that's the whole point...social media is causing the everyday behavior you are talking about.

Social media is a large part of the problem, but I first noticed really bad social behaviors at least 25 years ago. Think back to when the F word first became really prevalent on the street. When you first heard about road rage. Etc. Undeniably, the anonymity of the internet allowed uncivil behavior to flourish. People imitate what they see, and with social media people are far more aware of other people's aggression---aggressive people now have an audience of millions.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by dickiej

But that's the whole point...social media is causing the everyday behavior you are talking about.

Not from what I see.

Social media doesn't make a 60 year old verbally attack a counter person and get upset when they don't get immediate attention.
Social media doesn't make a 70 year old run the exit only side of a fence after the store is closed and then spend an inordinate amount of time concerned with a discount on an $8 purchase because they know that we all want to go home.

Those are just inherently bad behaviors that stand out because no one in the real world wants to stand up to them and point it out.

The accused, I doubt suspect that a local outcry for their release will be forthcoming should they be convicted.

[LoveLakeLife]

Sailin, calling people “deniers” is half the problem. “Climate change” = weather. Some people disagree and say the world will end in another 6-7 years I think it is.

Believe what you like. Try to persuade others if you like. Don’t delude yourself, though, that everyone gives weight to what you think just because it is you who thinks it. That’s not unique to you, it’s true for everyone.

If you don’t want to be a passive bystander, then don’t be, but don’t expect others to have the same attitude. Don’t think people will be persuaded when you throw out the oblique dig of “you can choose which kind of person you want to be.” No one here is trying to please you, or concerned about what you might think of them. Your internal standards are your own to live by, and are no more valid than anyone else’s.

Your posts are sincere and thought-provoking, but not so much when you embed, whether directly or slyly, needless invective, i.e., the “which type of person” stuff.

What did everyone do on the lake today?!


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[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

Don’t think people will be persuaded when you throw out the oblique dig of “you can choose which kind of person you want to be.” . . . needless invective, i.e., the “which type of person” stuff.

Where do you see invective in choosing whether you want to be a peace maker or a dissenter? My point was very simple: "There is probably a place in society for peace makers and dissenters." And I added that hopefully we choose to do both. There is no invective implied or intended there.

If I wanted to use invective I might say something like "when you make a statement like 'Climate change = weather' you practically force someone to question your IQ, unless you know something that 98% of the world's scientists don't know." No, wait, a statement of fact isn't really invective. Sorry, bad example.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Where do you see invective in choosing whether you want to be a peace maker or a dissenter? My point was very simple: "There is probably a place in society for peace makers and dissenters." And I added that hopefully we choose to do both. There is no invective implied or intended there.

If I wanted to use invective I might say something like "when you make a statement like 'Climate change = weather' you practically force someone to question your IQ, unless you know something that 98% of the world's scientists don't know." No, wait, a statement of fact isn't really invective. Sorry, bad example.

Well I do know one thing that is an absolute about the climate change matter, your classic environmentalists are NOT in agreement with the climate change activists. It seem that the green movement is not actually all that green and that if humans are to continue (as opposed to the 12 year extinction quoted by someone else) then we will need a hot planet with lots of green house gasses to grow food and to make oxygen for the rapidly growing population. We just need it to be free of toxic material generation that too many of the new green deal people are going to create, such as lithium battery powered everything! Time to get back to the concept of cradle to grave, as opposed to the short term big money and big profit new green concepts.

But then this thread is not about any of that, so best we drop all the environmental talk and get back to our scathing assessment of the evil men do, and are doing, and are getting away with EVERY day!

And in this matter, regardless of the final outcome, they mostly got away with it AND for a long time, and impacted way too many lives. And that is the tragedy. How this continued for as long as it did is inexcusable. There can be no meaningful justice for such offenses, only paper resolutions. One can only hope for a special place in hell for such creatures, and I hope to be there waiting for them. I have my pitchfork all picked out and I look forward to doling out eternal torment, as I harbor no delusions that I am any golden winged angel. I will simply be happy enough to be one of the few who can take the heat for my wrong doings and who gets to exact dues from those worse than me!

Are we done yet?

[LoveLakeLife]

I might have misinterpreted when you used the terms peacemaker and dissenter. If so, my apologies.

Now you’ve taking up the mantle that Richard appropriately abandoned and lowered yourself to the “questioning IQ” gambit.

Yes, I know common sense. The weather is the weather. Weren’t we supposed to be under water or frozen over by now according to “scientists” of the 20th century? One man’s facts are another man’s fallacies. Saying something is a fact doesn’t make it so. Only a few hundred years ago the world was, in fact, flat. Only a few months ago the vaccine, in fact, cured the virus. Which was it, naïveté or gullibility, on the part of the masses who slavishly believed the “scientists”?


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

Only a few months ago the vaccine, in fact, cured the virus. Which was it, naïveté or gullibility, on the part of the masses who slavishly believed the “scientists”?

If you're going to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, you should at least get the facts straight. The scientific community never said the vaccines would cure the virus, and no one ever said they were perfect. They said it would prevent specific strains of virus in large numbers of people and would minimize severity in just about all. They did both of these things.

I have not looked at the numbers in many months, but I'm pretty sure that if you look at COVID deaths, the deceased were disproportionately unvaccinated

[John Mercier]

Climate does not equal weather.

And vaccines do not make people immune.

The climate is a long term pattern, weather is a short term pattern.

Vaccines trick the immune system into believing that the body is being attacked by an infection of the specified pathogen and causes it to build up a defense without ever actually being infected.

Social media has made those a more vigorous a discussion; but those discussions were pretty vigorous before social media existed.

I doubt that social media is making pedophilia more acceptable, or that the accused expects that if convicted social media will come to their defense.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Climate does not equal weather.

And vaccines do not make people immune.

And finally something we can agree on, except that it has no place in this thread! So based on your previously defined forum standards, this should not be here! I guess we are both off the rails,,,

So again, are we done yet,,,

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

If you're going to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, you should at least get the facts straight. The scientific community never said the vaccines would cure the virus, and no one ever said they were perfect. They said it would prevent specific strains of virus in large numbers of people and would minimize severity in just about all. They did both of these things.

I have not looked at the numbers in many months, but I'm pretty sure that if you look at COVID deaths, the deceased were disproportionately unvaccinated

And here I thought the deceased were disproportionately over 80 and had preexisting health problems,,, or were they disproportionately not members of this forum so they didnt know what the facts are/were/will be, I keep mixing up all the COVID facts as they keep changing based on CDC and the status of politics and the media.

Oh sorry, isnt this thread about another matter,,,

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

I might have misinterpreted when you used the terms peacemaker and dissenter. If so, my apologies. Now you’ve taking up the mantle that Richard appropriately abandoned and lowered yourself to the “questioning IQ” gambit. Yes, I know common sense. The weather is the weather. Weren’t we supposed to be under water or frozen over by now according to “scientists” of the 20th century? One man’s facts are another man’s fallacies. Saying something is a fact doesn’t make it so. Only a few hundred years ago the world was, in fact, flat. Only a few months ago the vaccine, in fact, cured the virus. Which was it, naïveté or gullibility, on the part of the masses who slavishly believed the “scientists”?

Smart people recognize when they are not experts on a topic and they look to experts for information rather than relying on personal opinion and bias when the issue is a question of fact. I would rather rely on people who study something all day every day than on my personal opinion, especially if 98% of experts in a field agree on the issue.

Smart people also take the time to examine the source of their opinion on a topic. Does it come from my reading of reports from experts? From my political beliefs? My religious beliefs? My parents, schooling, friends, news media, the government, personal experience, etc etc.? Not smart people hold firm but unexamined beliefs about issues that relate more to facts than opinions, like flat earthers. You can't really have an opinion on whether the earth is flat. You can have either knowledge or ignorance of that fact. (Or you can pretend you don't know the facts and present untruths because you have some other agenda.)

By those definitions of smart and not smart, you seem to be going out of your way to place yourself in the latter category.

[LoveLakeLife]

More labeling and ad hominem attacks, so regrettable. Now the implication is over smartness and has gone beyond the IQ realm. If you only were to know …..

I hope someday to be so smart that life experience and observation will count for nothing and I’ll just blindly follow the crowd. Until then I’ll pretend to hope against hope that the prediction of 12 years until human extinction, made five years or so ago, is off at least a few months to the good. Then I can enjoy the lake for a few months before the eastern seaboard sinks. Hopefully that’ll happen in the winter. Wait, will winter still be a thing by then?


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[LoveLakeLife]

We’re done XCR. Thanks for bringing it around.


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[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

We’re done XCR. Thanks for bringing it around.


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On a personal note LLL you have proven yourself to be a highly intelligent poster on this forum and I look forward to more of your posts! Please keep them coming!

Dan