Alton Traffic Circle to become an intersection?

[Argie's Wife]

(This press realease is dated 4/3/08)


ALTON PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING
RECONSTRUCTION OF NH 11 AND NH 28 AT ALTON TRAFFIC CIRCLE

The New Hampshire Department of Transportation announces a combined Public Officials/Public Informational Meeting will be held Wednesday, April 16, 2008 to review and discuss reconstruction of the intersection of NH Route 11 and NH Route 28 at the Alton traffic circle.

This purpose of this meeting is to present citizens and public officials with
information regarding the proposed project, and to solicit public input in order to ensure that project decisions meet public transportation needs, community goals, and protect and enhance the environment.

The April 16 public meeting will be held at 7:00 PM at the Prospect Mountain High School cafeteria, 242 Suncook Valley Road in Alton, New Hampshire.



==============

Sounds like we're going to loose the traffic circle. Personally, I prefer a traffic circle if it's designed right and IF the drivers actually pay attention to the signs while they're driving. This should be interesting...

[chmeeee]

Perhaps they are considering converting it into a roundabout?

*ducks*

[mcdude]

There's a copy of the new traffic plan in Rueben's Hardware store. It is supposed to be a modified rotary. I noticed that they have begun construction on the new bridge on Rt. 28S over the Merrymeeting River.

[gtxrider]

Do I see a second traffic light in Alton's future? What is wrong with the current circle?

[eyenotall777]

There is nothing wrong w/ it at all. Drivers just need to pay attention to when they are suppose to yield. I have seen time and time again drivers that are suppose to "yield" do not and they give me "index finger" when they are totally in the wrong. The current traffic circle is a "characteristic" of Alton. When people see it for the first time in months coming from the South (not matter what South/East direction-snow birds, vacationers, adults re-visiting their childhood) they get that "euphoric" feeling. Hopefully they are just giving it an update and not changing it too much.

[John A. Birdsall]

Having come to Alton/Alton Bay since I was about 3 days old some sixty one years, I think this is wrong. I try to see how people will get around there and I see one heck of a mess. It works very well the way it is, You cannot educate some drivers, just as you have a hard time telling 150' they have a hard time learning what YIELD RIGHT OF WAY means, or CORTESY

[riverat]

I for one see nothing wrong with the current circle, I live a mile and a half away from it on rt.11 and go through atleast once a day and the only problem is some driver either do not care about the yield sign or they like living dangerously but most have no problem such as I. I think it is a waste of time and money but they seem to think something needs to be done for the sake of doing something.

[Resident 2B]

I recently read that the state is cutting costs and making decisions not to spend money in an attempt to get the budget under control. With that as a background, why is anyone trying to fix a problem that does not exist?

The Alton circle is fine the way it is. We do not need to spend any money to address a problem that is not there.

R2B

[camp guy]

Boy, oh boy, talk about spending money where it isn't needed - this is a classic case. As the posters ahead of me have said, the Circle works well. Now, leave it alone.

Considering how rough this winter was on the roads, I suggest the State take the $$$ to re-do the Circle and start fixing pot holes and broken down road shoulders on Rt 28 from the Wolfeboro line heading north. I only mention Wolfeboro roads because I live in Wolfeboro, and I am sure each of any of the other Towns represented on this Forum has pothole problems.

Please, NH-DOT, spend your (excuse me, OUR) money) on something more helpful to us all.

[ghfromaltonbay]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

I recently read that the state is cutting costs and making decisions not to spend money in an attempt to get the budget under control. With that as a background, why is anyone trying to fix a problem that does not exist?

The Alton circle is fine the way it is. We do not need to spend any money to address a problem that is not there.

R2B

AMEN, Brother!

[KBoater]

Does anyone remember when the current Alton Circle was built? I remember a different circle design.

[idigtractors]

Originally Posted by mcdude

There's a copy of the new traffic plan in Rueben's Hardware store. It is supposed to be a modified rotary. I noticed that they have begun construction on the new bridge on Rt. 28S over the Merrymeeting River.

I was told that, that was the temp bridge while they build the new on in the old location. I was told that at our friendly Jeri's barber shop some weeks ago.

[mcdude]

I poked around the NH Dept. of Transportation website and found this Power Point-type presentation (it's a PDF file) on the Alton Traffic Circle. There are three apporaches they are considering...

1.- Involves two traffic lights.

2.- is for a Round - a - bout like our fine friends up in Meredith are contending with...

or

3.- Some modification of the current rotary.

Existing Condition

Circle was constructed in 1962

Some entrances yield and others do not, causes confusion. Size and shape relate to higher speeds
Not very pedestrian or bike friendly

There is a map with each option.

Here's the link..

ALTON TRAFFIC CIRCLE PROJECT

[Merrymeeting]

Like others, I've been driving through here for 30+ years and cannot believe there is any discussion of a major overhaul here. Is there really that much extra money and time in the budget?

Having said that, I will admit that my wife and I have commented many times that the yield signs are counter to what people normally expect. I would not be opposed to a change in some of the behaviors in the rotary.

One would think that any change like this would be driven by accident rates, traffic patterns, etc. I have yet to see anything in this area that would indicate that a change is needed. Though it will be interesting to see what the development in the area brings (Hannafords, McD's, proposed medical center....)

[kjbathe]

Alas, no. There were two 1's behind the April when I read this...

I agree with the folks above - talk about fixing a problem that doesn't exist. I will offer that this "traffic circle" is a little different from other circles in that the vehicle in the circle/rotary often has to yield, but it works as is: Traffic flows, there's no major backup and I can't even recall the last time there was an accident at the circle. As for being pedestrian and cyclist friendly -- are we doing a rip-up in hope that some day there will actually be sufficient pedestrian and cyclist traffic to justify the change?

If confusion is the issue, spend $800, put up a bigger yield sign and call it good. If the thinking is that millions of dollars and a backhoe are going to eliminate driver confusion, one need only spend an hour in the car and observe that failure to yield isn't "confusion", it's a cultural problem. What will we plan to construct next for the segment of the population perpetually confused by the meaning of yellow and red traffic lights?

[eyenotall777]

DOT holding meeting
on traffic circle Wednesday
ALTON — The New
Hampshire Department of
Transportation (DOT) will
be conducting a combined
public officials/public informational
meeting to discuss
reconstruction at the Alton
Traffic Circle on Wednesday,
April 16, at Prospect Mountain
High School.
This meeting is being
held to discuss the project
(which may have an effect on
historical properties) and
gather input from officials
and the public.
The meeting is scheduled
to begin at 7 p.m. in the high
school cafeteria

[Weirs guy]

Ah, a solution looking for a problem. I don't know whether I would prefer DOT look at dysfunction junction at the Weirs first, or just stay away from here altogether!

[CanisLupusArctos]

Never mind the bigger signs or even fixing the thing. Just enforce existing laws. If the blue lights make sure the finger-givers know which side of the law they're on, we'll have the results we're looking for. People don't follow unenforced laws, so they keep getting bolder. But we keep trying to fix such lawlessness by pouring money into increased regulation (in this case, possible traffic lights?) instead of enforcing the laws we have.

I can think of a couple things that could bench this proposal pretty quickly, though.

1) Something goes wrong in some country we never heard of before, and we wake up the the TV news telling us that oil has surged to $150 a barrel as a result. The cost of the construction makes everyone say no before they even think twice about it.

2) Floods wash out roads this spring (see flood discussion in weather thread.) With washouts to repair (again) and oil currently around $110 a barrel, people realize they haven't got the money for a project whose necessity is in question.

[Argie's Wife]

I prefer traffic circles over intersections anytime because they're safer, overall. You never see anyone get t-boned in a traffic circle - maybe rear-ended or side-swiped but it's still a "safer" accident because there's not a direct head-on or side-on impact.

The thing that's "different" from the traffic circles I'm used to is that the drivers in the circle yield for those entering the circle. In my experience, like at the Epsom, NH, or Lee, NH or Portsmouth, NH circles, the drivers entering the circle yield for those in the circle - it's pretty much the opposite for the Alton circle except for the spokes entering from Route 28 - those are yields, while the ones from Route 11 aren't yields. It's just different.

But like other posters have said, once people read and OBEY the signs, then there's no problem. (And don't hold your breathe for that in the traffic circle or in the school zones!!)

[upthesaukee]

The Alton Circle is not a "circle, roundabout, or rotary" and was not intended to be so. Perhaps an elongated intersection helps to explain it, and as to who yields and who doesn't ( or at least is supposed to), Rte 11 is the right away and rte 28 and Old New Durham road are the streets/roads that need to yield.

That being said, and having lived in this town for 12 years, driving through the circle 5 days a week at a minimum, I have seldom seen many cars backed up on 28 or New Durham Rd. Even after Hannafords went in, it seems to have little effect. As such, I would rather see the money to improve the traffic flow at the circle go to other roads. In fact, a few years back, they re-paved route 11 from around Alton hardware to the bay, putting in sidewalks and drainage. Only problem is, there is more water running across rte 11 on the hill coming down to the Letter S road than there was before the construction, which creates a nice icy situation in the fall/winter/spring. Take the money and fix that.

Alas, it is probably not to be the way.

[snowbird]

I recall my intended-to-be-humorous observation, during the Meredith traffic circles discussion, that NH is construcing traffic circles while England is removing them. Now it appears that NH is also considering the removal of an existing circle. That's could be called having it both ways. Or is it just make work? or

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

The Alton Circle is not a "circle, roundabout, or rotary" and was not intended to be so. Perhaps an elongated intersection helps to explain it, and as to who yields and who doesn't ( or at least is supposed to), Rte 11 is the right away and rte 28 and Old New Durham road are the streets/roads that need to yield.

That being said, and having lived in this town for 12 years, driving through the circle 5 days a week at a minimum, I have seldom seen many cars backed up on 28 or New Durham Rd. Even after Hannafords went in, it seems to have little effect. As such, I would rather see the money to improve the traffic flow at the circle go to other roads. In fact, a few years back, they re-paved route 11 from around Alton hardware to the bay, putting in sidewalks and drainage. Only problem is, there is more water running across rte 11 on the hill coming down to the Letter S road than there was before the construction, which creates a nice icy situation in the fall/winter/spring. Take the money and fix that.

Alas, it is probably not to be the way.

If you want to be technical about it, semantically speaking, you're probably right but since we all seem to associate making continuous left hand turns with a "circle" then we refer to it as a the "Alton Traffic Circle".

And I agree with you that it is a rather efficient setup and there are probably better ways to fix the roads. I'd be happier if the darn speed limits on the roads were enforced - never mind the conditions of the roads!

That reminds me...

If you're ever on Route 11 coming from the Gilford or West Alton area, look out for a section of the road just before the lane splits into the travel/passing lane section of Route 11. There's a drop off in the pavement there that is going to make for some nice front end alignments later on! There's no "Bump" sign - from the size of the drop off it should say "Parachutes On!"

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

That reminds me...

If you're ever on Route 11 coming from the Gilford or West Alton area, look out for a section of the road just before the lane splits into the travel/passing lane section of Route 11. There's a drop off in the pavement there that is going to make for some nice front end alignments later on! There's no "Bump" sign - from the size of the drop off it should say "Parachutes On!"

Five times now I have forgot about that "bump" and each time it felt like I had wrecked the front end of my pick-up. Somehow my wife Subaru managed to float across with little effect. Maybe tomorrow I will remember.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

I am a big fan of traffic circles and agree with those who say that the Alton intersection is not a traffic circle. As my two sons learned to drive we made sure to pay special attention to educate them in the "unusual" arrangement of the intersection. Perhaps if the signs said stand on and give way.

[MAXUM]

The "circle" seems to be just fine, the only times I've seen it get a little congested is on the big holiday weekends and even then it's not terrible. That money as camp guy said would be fixing the busted up roads. I suggest the state take a look at 28 between Suncook Lake and the Alton traffic circle. That road has never been right and they just keep paving over the crappy road base. One winter later it's all tore up and falling apart. With the amount of traffic that travels 28 through the season that section should be high on the list of a complete do-over. I was hoping after a section of it washed out last spring they might do just that, but alas another quick and dirty patch and it's "OK" again. The other section of road that could use the same treatment is Rt 109 in Tuftonboro. Good grief another jaw breaking stretch, especially in frost heave season. While I certainly appreciate the frost heave warning signs that are posted in the early spring, it's not fixing the fundamental problem. Then again stuff like that makes way to much sense, therefore it'll never get done. Much better to fix something that does not need it.

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

The "circle" seems to be just fine, the only times I've seen it get a little congested is on the big holiday weekends and even then it's not terrible. That money as camp guy said would be fixing the busted up roads. I suggest the state take a look at 28 between Suncook Lake and the Alton traffic circle. That road has never been right and they just keep paving over the crappy road base. One winter later it's all tore up and falling apart. With the amount of traffic that travels 28 through the season that section should be high on the list of a complete do-over. I was hoping after a section of it washed out last spring they might do just that, but alas another quick and dirty patch and it's "OK" again. The other section of road that could use the same treatment is Rt 109 in Tuftonboro. Good grief another jaw breaking stretch, especially in frost heave season. While I certainly appreciate the frost heave warning signs that are posted in the early spring, it's not fixing the fundamental problem. Then again stuff like that makes way to much sense, therefore it'll never get done. Much better to fix something that does not need it.

I have a theory on this one, the towns over there do not want to repairs the roads because it would mean more traffic, that is why the sourthern part of the lake is always busy, keeps the tourists away, it does not stop me, but I know a lot of people comment on those roads and hate it. ALso keeps the motorcycles away!

[CanisLupusArctos]

Originally Posted by snowbird

I recall my intended-to-be-humorous observation, during the Meredith traffic circles discussion, that NH is construcing traffic circles while England is removing them.

I have a lot of friends from England, many of whom I met when they did vacation rentals here at the lake, and I keep hearing the same story from them all the time. They've mentioned everything from roundabouts to healthcare and other policies. They always ask "Why are Americans trying to be more like us? We like [our way] so much we're scaling it back." It's true though... I always hear American politicians saying with great envy, "Well in OTHER westernized countries like England they have ______ and we don't." But in 3 trips to England to visit those same friends I'd hear their sentiments all over the street: "Our way doesn't work and we should take a closer look the way the Americans do it." Therefore it might be our own snob-nosed politicians thinking that everything about Europe is hip & trendy and makes more sense.

[mcdude]

Selectmen recommend
minor changes to circle

BY BRENDAN BERUBE

Staff Writer

ALTON

— With the idea of converting the Alton Traffic Circle into a Europeanstyle roundabout wildly unpopular among residents, the
board of selectmen voted Monday night to recommend that the state Department of Transportation (DOT) pursue minor improvements aimed at making the existing circle function in a more conventional
way.
Chairman Alan Sherwood opened the discussion by proposing a three-part recommendation to the board. The first part, he said,would be to ask the DOT to put the roundabout option on “permanent hold” and focus on improvements designed to increase the safety and capacity of the circle.
The second part of Sherwood’s recommendation was to ask if the DOT would consider additional cosmetic improvements at the circle,such
as a sidewalk connecting the cemetery to the new Merrymeeting River bridge; a pedestrian crossing connecting the sidewalk at Hannaford
to the foot and bicycle path that runs along the railroad bed near Old Wolfeboro Road; and a park and ride lot. The third part, Sherwood said,would be to ask the DOT to research the origin of the $2.5 million appropriation earmarked for the circle, and determine if the language of
the earmark could be broadened in scope to include repairs to Route 28 between Alton and Barnstead. Selectman Peter Bolster felt that the reconfigured design, with new signage forcing incoming vehicles on
Route 11 west to yield when entering the circle, would “pretty well take care of” what he saw as the primary safety concern, the necessity
for vehicles heading toward New Durham Road to cut across both lanes at the Route 11 entrance. Bolster also thought the park and ride lot would reduce energy use, and represent a “really important savings” for the community. The sidewalks, he said, would also go a long way toward
promoting public health.
Selectman Steve McMahon supported the idea of a sidewalk along Route 28 from the bridge down to Prospect Mountain High School. With that area becoming more and more built-up, he said, the increased traffic flow poses a danger to both drivers and students walking or biking along the road.
“I’m very much behind this,” said Town Planner Sharon Penney, adding
that she particularly liked the idea of enhanced pedes trian access.
“It’s a real excellent planning opportunity to do something proactive,” she said, asking to be kept “in the information loop.”
Resident Reuben Wentworth, however, felt that the selectmen were in too much of a rush to make a decision. “What’s the hurry?” he asked. “The money is there; it’s not going anywhere.” The first step, Wentworth
suggested, should be to determine where the money originated from.
“Does the state have to match the earmark?” he asked, referring to concerns about funding raised by DOT representatives at a public
hearing on the project on April 16.
Sherwood explained that the discussion at the hearing occurred because the DOT was unsure if the earmarked funding would cover the cost
of a roundabout. There would most likely be money left over after the minor improvements, he added. Making incoming traffic yield, Wentworth said, could create backups on Route 11. “Right now, it does flow,”
he added. If anything, he suggested, the selectmen should ask the
state to move the yield sign across from Route 28 south to the left-hand side of the road, rather than the right-hand side, enabling drivers to notice it more. For Chris Consentino, whose family once owned Aubuchon Hardware, the proposed improvements were a matter of “if it ain’t broke,
don’t fix it.” “It really ain’t broke,” she said. “I can’t see all the rigmarole
about fixing it.” Addressing the issue of sidewalks, Consentino pointed
out that the sidewalk in front of Town Hall is in a severe state of disrepair.
“And you want us to put more in?” she asked. The only severe accident
Consentino remembered witnessing at the circle involved a truck that went over on its side, an accident that she said was caused not by the configuration of the circle, but by the fact that the driver was speeding.
Echoing Wentworth’s primary concern, Consentino suggested that the selectmen investigate to determine why the money was earmarked for
the circle, and where it came from. If possible, she added, the money should be used to “fix something that’s broke.” MaryBee Longabaugh
supported the selectmen’s recommendation, joking that she never met a roundabout she liked. “If you get in the wrong lane, you’re done for,” she
said, describing the dangers associated with two-lane roundabouts.
Referring to an article submitted to the board by her husband, Bob, on the popularity of roundabouts in the state of New York (which has already built 33 roundabouts, and has 24 more in the works), Longabaugh explained that she has driven through several of New York’s roundabouts.
“They’re beautiful, if you know what you’re doing,” she said, adding that a roundabout would not work in a community like Alton,which sees a large number of tourists during the summer, who would be unfamiliar with the new design. Ruth Messier also expressed a distrust of roundabouts,
explaining that she would prefer to travel around the other side of Lake Winnipesaukee to visit her daughter in Meredith rather than tackle the roundabout there. “It was the most stressful experience I’ve ever had as a driving woman,” she said. Messier’s primary concern with the selectmen’s recommendation was the proposal for a sidewalk along
Route 28. If she lived on that stretch of road and had school-aged
children who would have to walk to Prospect Mountain, she said, “I would never let them go to school.” Messier also asked whether the town or the state would ultimately be responsible for maintaining the sidewalk. Sherwood replied that the town would be responsible for all maintenance.
Highway Agent Ken Roberts suggested that as part of their recommendation, the selectmen look into beautifying the center of the circle. “It’s a rat hole,” he said. “I’m sorry, but it is.” Pointing out that the town no longer has even so much as a “Welcome to Alton” sign posted at the circle, Roberts urged the board to “do something with it.” Bolster said he had come across a landscaping plan for the circle that looked like it
had been drawn up in the late 1960s in a filing cabinet at the Community Church during his time as pastor there, and suggested that the town might have a copy. The board ultimately voted 3-0 to submit their recommendation to the DOT, with McMahon (who suggested that they wait and see if the money could be used to repair Route 28) abstaining.
Sherwood explained that the recommendation would more than likely mean a two year process, including a future public hearing on the DOT’s formal plan.

The Baysider

[Argie's Wife]

Kudos to the Alton Selectmen and administration for letting the public give so much input on this situation. I hope they do the right thing by exploring all options - it seems they're taking a conservative approach with this.

I'm cautious of money that comes from the government without a hook - improvement might be made with the money but the Selectmen should consider that upkeep to those improvements will cost money in the future. Someone at that meeting commented we should just make the absolute necessary improvements to the circle and return the money left over to Concord. Depending on the conditions of the "earmark", that might be the best avenue (no pun intended...)

[secondcurve]

This explains in a nut shell what is wrong with government. For some unknown reason, $2.5MM was earmarked for this circle by the state. No one in local government seems to know why. However, since the improvements are so unnecessary and stupid, the local residents don't want to spend the money on the proposed changes. What happens next is the local politicians will try to spend the money somewhere else since it has been designated as "theirs". The kicker is that it will take two years to consider changes to the earmark. Presumably if they wanted to use the funds to fix the unbroken circle they could start tomorrow. God help us.