Apartment Building Proposed at the Weirs Rotary

[TiltonBB]

The Laconia Zoning Board of Adjustment has a hearing scheduled for April 15,2024 regarding the lot at the Weirs Rotary where Carl's Restaurant used to be. The proposal is to build 27 units.

Applicant is seeking a variance from Article VI section 235-37 to deviate from the prescribed building height limit of 35 feet to allow for a building height of up to 55 feet in the CR Zone for residential use.

Applicant is seeking a variance from Article VI Section 235-33 for maximum unit density to allow for 27 units where only 6 would be allowed.

https://www.laconianh.gov/AgendaCent...5?fileID=48142

[ITD]

Looks nice

[8gv]

I hope it gets approved.

[Biggd]

Wondering if it will be rentals or condo's!

[WinnisquamZ]

Last project similar to this was on Elm street. Approved as apartments. Some market rate some low income. As building was completed he switched to condominiums. Can see the same thing happening here


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[map]

Great. More traffic.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by map

Great. More traffic.

Something was eventually going to be built there. Residential units, many I suspect will be occupied as second homes, will bring less traffic than commercial or retail.

Whatever is built should be an improvement over the chain link fence that has been there for years.

Five stories seems a bit much and overwhelming for the lot. Three stories would be a lot better looking and a better fit.

But, at least it is a decent style, unlike the chicken coops being built up the street!

[John Mercier]

The final build is always different than the initial renderings.
For the Lookout that is pretty obvious when you look at the initial renders.
Even what was built at Barton's.

Both of those initially had an ''adirondack'' flavor like the condos built on the old BK parking lot.

This one may have a better chance... though I can't tell from the renderings it looks like they will use the insulation and acrylic stucco version that is used on the Best Western Plus (Landmark Inn) reface; and have already gone into the lighter colors that are trending.

Of course if they can't get the variance, then the whole project will need to change to make the numbers work.

[ITD]

Where’s the parking?

[WinnisquamZ]

Parking is a sore topic for the city zoning and planning boards. Hold to the rules and the developers threaten to sue. The city caves, they bitch but caves


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[8gv]

Originally Posted by ITD

Where’s the parking?

Maybe it's underneath the building on the first floor.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by ITD

Where’s the parking?

The lot has a good size "dog leg" that goes up the hill behind the Gulbicki property and the telephone building. The city code is 1.5 parking spaces per unit and it looks like they are proposing 41 total spaces. Sorry for the picture quality.

[John Mercier]

If they didn't suspect they would have enough parking, they would have asked for a variance.
But the city caving? I seem to remember proposed housing for people that would be too poor to own a vehicle being rejected due to parking spaces provided.

Usually they try to ''tone down'' the height - which is what created the roof effect at Barton's, and some of what happened at Lookout. They have also loved seeing renderings with expensive brick, stone, and wood cedar shake exteriors with expensive fir beams. Hopefully they are getting over that and can accept the new architectural direction. After all, they are the ones that are promoting the area as a party palace.

[WinnisquamZ]

Yes, they caved on the parking issue for “poor people” as you say. Once approved the parking issue remains even if “poor people” no longer occupy the housing. Can someone clarify the lot in question? Is it the diner location on the channel or the paved lot across the street?


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[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Yes, they caved on the parking issue for “poor people” as you say. Once approved the parking issue remains even if “poor people” no longer occupy the housing. Can someone clarify the lot in question? Is it the diner location on the channel or the paved lot across the street?


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The subject property is the paved lot that is not on the water, across the street from the diner. It has frontage on the traffic circle and Endicott Street North.

The lot with the diner, and the very tired looking house that is adjacent to the bridge has been on the market for quite a while. My understanding is they are asking somewhere over $1 million. It is a tough site with docking for maybe 3 boats in a place where your boat is subject to being struck. The Channel traffic that includes inexperienced boat renters departing Northwater Marine, in sometimes difficult current, passes by just where the Channel narrows.

[John Mercier]

Just the noise and crossing the traffic circle on a busy weekend is not going to be that ''fun''.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Yes, they caved on the parking issue for “poor people” as you say. Once approved the parking issue remains even if “poor people” no longer occupy the housing. Can someone clarify the lot in question? Is it the diner location on the channel or the paved lot across the street?


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That would be interesting...
But I don't perceive a time when Laconia will run out of ''poor people''.
Currently they are even shrinking middle class at a spectacular rate.

[fatlazyless]

Things-to-do for residents living at the proposed new building on the Weirs roundabout:

Walk or pedal the long sidewalk up the Route 3 hill, walking past www.kellerhaus.com and past newly constructed www.lookoutnh.com to Tower St, and go down the very steep, long Tower St to Lakeside Ave and back to the Weirs roundabout, starting point. That could a be a good two mile walk or pedal using the recently constructed city sidewalks, and/or the Weirs boardwalk.

Carry a stand-up paddle board over to the nearby Weirs sandy beach and go paddle boarding in either the Weirs Channel or out beyond the swim rope line at the public beach on Lake Winnipesaukee. Just out beyond that swim rope line is a totally excellent safe spot to hit the lake with a sup ...... like totally safe with a smooth sandy lake floor..... and someday there may actually be lifeguards there because the city has purchased new life guard tower seats.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

The subject property is the paved lot that is not on the water, across the street from the diner. It has frontage on the traffic circle and Endicott Street North.

The lot with the diner, and the very tired looking house that is adjacent to the bridge has been on the market for quite a while. My understanding is they are asking somewhere over $1 million. It is a tough site with docking for maybe 3 boats in a place where your boat is subject to being struck. The Channel traffic that includes inexperienced boat renters departing Northwater Marine, in sometimes difficult current, passes by just where the Channel narrows.

Thank you for the clarification on the lot. Agree with you John, Laconia is making it very difficult for the lower to middle class to live here.


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[John Mercier]

You have plenty of lower class.
We used to call it the lower middle class... but that was considered demeaning.

They changed it to workforce... which is what Laconia actually considers middle class.


The actual middle class has financial stability...
Which generally means enough emergency funds and retirement funds to meet a certain age-based standard relative to household income.

Laconia has a household income of $70K - seems low to me. Which means a middle class household headed up by someone in the 35-40 year old range should have emergency savings of around $21K and retirement fund around $140k. Someone in the 55-60 range should be around $70K in emergency funds, and around $560k in retirement funds. That means that they can sustain their household standard or living through retirement years even with the cuts expected in SS and increased Medicare premiums.

Laconia has a lot of residents that have housing, and a full time job, but only have the appearance of being middle class.

Same thing with the people that believe themselves to be in the upper middle. They generally have higher annual household incomes (above $105K per standards), but may not have enough emergency funds and fall far short of the retirement requirements.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

The lot has a good size "dog leg" that goes up the hill behind the Gulbicki property and the telephone building. The city code is 1.5 parking spaces per unit and it looks like they are proposing 41 total spaces. Sorry for the picture quality.

So where can you buy a half car to fit that half space?

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Biggd

So where can you buy a half car to fit that half space?

Not just Laconia. Zoning reg's all over the place are short of parking for residential complexes. They assume one car per unit and some shared guest parking. In reality, it's more like two cars per unit and 1/2 car for the 30 something kid who still lives at home. No room for any guests or staffing/maintenance folks to park. On the other hand, there is ample parking required for big box stores so they fill it up with "seasonal" merchandise, not customer cars.

[sky's]

i love the town of Sandwhich more and more.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Descant

Not just Laconia. Zoning reg's all over the place are short of parking for residential complexes. They assume one car per unit and some shared guest parking. In reality, it's more like two cars per unit and 1/2 car for the 30 something kid who still lives at home. No room for any guests or staffing/maintenance folks to park. On the other hand, there is ample parking required for big box stores so they fill it up with "seasonal" merchandise, not customer cars.

Actually a marketing thing that doesn't really work as well as they would hope.
When I was at Tilton, I would use the side apron that was to hold overstock instead of using the parking lot.

Didn't have to bring a hose across the pavement, and could set up the side apron like a small park to give people ideas for the backyard.

[Woodsy]

5 stories is a bit large and definitely out of character for the neighborhood. A 3 story building would be a nice addition. However, I suspect a bait and switch to condos!


Woodsy

[John Mercier]

Not really that much different.
In other cities throughout the world, you can buy your apartment. Pretty much making it what we call a condo.

And even some condos are LTR.

It is really more a difference on the financial side.
The developer can reacquire the capital expense more quickly, and the investor can either inhabit or lease out the condo - not having to own the whole project.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Not really that much different.
In other cities throughout the world, you can buy your apartment. Pretty much making it what we call a condo.

And even some condos are LTR.

It is really more a difference on the financial side.
The developer can reacquire the capital expense more quickly, and the investor can either inhabit or lease out the condo - not having to own the whole project.

This is not "other cities of the world"... this is Laconia. There is a great need for apartment space. There isn't a huge need for yet even more expensive condominium space. There is also an obviously much lower financial burden to rent an apartment. Everything should not be about the developer! The City should have a balanced approach to development, that seem to have forgotten. If they approve this monstrosity for 5 floors, I hope they make the developer pay for a new ladder truck for the Weirs!

Woodsy

[lakewinnie]

Why go through all of the trouble and expense of constructing a new apartment complex?

Just permanently park The Dive there.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

This is not "other cities of the world"... this is Laconia. There is a great need for apartment space. There isn't a huge need for yet even more expensive condominium space. There is also an obviously much lower financial burden to rent an apartment. Everything should not be about the developer! The City should have a balanced approach to development, that seem to have forgotten. If they approve this monstrosity for 5 floors, I hope they make the developer pay for a new ladder truck for the Weirs!

Woodsy

You seem to miss the point. If all the units are sold as Condos, and the owner chooses instead to lease it as an apartment... the same result happens.
Lots of condos in the area are actually rentals.

The owner of the condo could not afford to purchase the entire building, and the developer may want to sell part of it to someone else... the condo option is the easiest method to do so.

The City of Laconia is not worried about middle class housing... if so Legacy would be in the initial construction stages as we speak.

[WinnisquamZ]

Why apartments during the approval phase? Developers are aware of the city need for rentals. They use it as tool during the planning and permitting process. The zoning and planning board have no stones to hold there ground. Can the building be deeded as rental only?


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[John Mercier]

Its possible.
But whether one person/group owns the 27 units and received rent from leases, or 27 different people each own a unit and receive rent from a lease, really has no impact on the outcome.

The problem the city has is that it doesn't want to build enough units... so the current units are bought up, the prices rise, and gentrification sets in.

The need is for dramatically more housing units than the demand. The demand being both local and influx.

The problem has always been the limitations of capital.

The stock market got around it with stock splits to keep the price per share down... and then went to mutual funds to even further lower the cost of capital access.

REITs did it for commercial properties... but those still have a long way to go to have as many players and options as mutual funds.

[The Real BigGuy]

I disagree with your “buy as condo then rent” assumption. Most people who buy a condo in a vacation area only rent it “short term” (Air B&B, etc.) because they want to be able to use it and short term maximizes their return. Sounds like what most people are saying is Laconia needs more long term rentals.


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[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

I disagree with your “buy as condo then rent” assumption. Most people who buy a condo in a vacation area only rent it “short term” (Air B&B, etc.) because they want to be able to use it and short term maximizes their return. Sounds like what most people are saying is Laconia needs more long term rentals.


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Correct. 6 months minimum


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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

I disagree with your “buy as condo then rent” assumption. Most people who buy a condo in a vacation area only rent it “short term” (Air B&B, etc.) because they want to be able to use it and short term maximizes their return. Sounds like what most people are saying is Laconia needs more long term rentals.


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The planning board has the ability to restrict STR as part of the approval. Though only through enforcement efforts can it be determined that someone occupying the residence is either the owner or has a long term lease.

The problem Laconia has is not enough housing units for the demand. We know that because it has the same population as when Major and I were in high school... and we have built a lot more housing units since that time. Even changing over factories to housing units. The factories, some condos some apartments, tend not to rent well STR as they are not in the resort area.

But the apartment prices for the new builds are not going to be in the range of most of the workforce.