Power Outage History

CateP · 02-22-2011, 07:28 PM

Hello forum friends.
We were wondering about the history of power outages in the area. I know there was a big ice storm in 2008 and people were out of power for 11 days, but I was wondering how the lakes region fared in that incident.

How common are power outages and do most people have generators so they can keep things going (like water pumps)?

lawn psycho · 02-22-2011, 08:28 PM

Total crap shoot but I highly recommend a generator for your house. Do you see all those wires along side the road? One ice storm, heavy snow, heavy winds and you can be without power. You can get a portable generator and just have a cable that is run into the electrical panel that plugs directly into the generator.

I would not be without one.

beaner · 02-22-2011, 10:10 PM

In general, it depends upon where you're located - the further out of town, the more likely you will lose power. The more people on your street, the more quickly it will be restored (more customers = higher priority). If you're in downtown Wolfeboro, for example, it will rarely go out, and when it does, it's almost always restored very quickly. That was true for even in the big ice storm several years ago. I figure that might be because they don't like to leave emergency services & downtown businesses running on generator backup for very long.

Owning a home with underground utilities will also decrease the odds of power outages.

Lucky1 · 02-22-2011, 10:22 PM

In summer for a few hours now and then power can go out. Other than that I have not had any problem. I did purchase one of those large Durecell batteries that are supposedly for power and also for jumping car batteries etc.
I guess the time for deciding how many problems you want is now, before you rush in and buy. I am not a big fan of places that lose power a lot and don't have cable etc. Winter places are best appreciated by me when they have a foundation instead of a crawl space etc. Never had a need for a generator so cannot offer my any experience with that.

There is a woodstove on the lower level that has never been used. Guess that might have some heat if it was ever needed. The house is simple, but it is very very well insulated and seems to hold the heat well. When my daughter was 17 she put wood in the wood stove and forgot to open the damper? in the pipe going into the chimney. The house quickly filled with smoke and that was it for trying a wood stove for me. I guess if needed though, it might make a difference.

lawn psycho · 02-22-2011, 11:02 PM

Another way to approach this is to have the generator hook up ready to go. If you encounter a prolonged powere outage you can then buy a generator (assuming there still available at that time). The cable is about $75 for a 20-25 ft long cord that's good for 30A. An electrician should charge maybe $150 to install the cord into the panel. You then get to use the existing breakers in your panel as to what you want to power up. It's also a selling feature if you ever decide to sell the house. I'll take a picture of mine and post how it's set up.

Cheap insurance IMO.

Rusty · 02-23-2011, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

Another way to approach this is to have the generator hook up ready to go. If you encounter a prolonged powere outage you can then buy a generator (assuming there still available at that time). The cable is about $75 for a 20-25 ft long cord that's good for 30A. An electrician should charge maybe $150 to install the cord into the panel. You then get to use the existing breakers in your panel as to what you want to power up. It's also a selling feature if you ever decide to sell the house. I'll take a picture of mine and post how it's set up.

Cheap insurance IMO.

Hooking up $75, 20-25 ft long cord to your existing circuit panel without a transfer switch is not recommended. I don’t know of any licensed electrician who will just hookup a power cord directly to your circuit panel.
A transfer switch is necessary to isolate the generator from the utility system when you install a back-up generator to your house’s wiring system. Failure to properly transfer your power places, you, your family, and utility workers at great risk of electrocution. Connecting a generator directly to any point of the home’s electrical wiring without a transfer switch is dangerous due to the possibility of “back-feeding.” Back-feeding happens when you connect your back-up generator directly to the home’s wiring without having a transfer switch. Without a transfer switch, your generator’s electricity can be sent back into the power grid from your house. This will energize the utility’s power lines in your street. This poses an electrocution hazard for utility workers and your neighbors who may not know that your voltage is present on the shared lines. If utility power is restored, your back-up generator and house wiring may be severely damaged.

I wired a transfer switch to my main circuit panel @ 15 yrs ago and I paid @ $300.00 for the transfer switch, wire and cable. I don’t know what the hardware and labor to install one would cost you.

ishoot308 · 02-23-2011, 08:51 AM

Hi Cate;

Having a generator backup is cheap insurance in my opinion and I wouldn't be without one.

As an fyi, when I had my recent house hooked up with a generator (about 4 years ago) my electrician simply changed out the entire circuit panel to one that has a built in transfer switch. The cost was no higher than adding a separate "gentran" panel (transfer switch) and allows you to switch on and off any circuit in the house when running on your generator as opposed to being limited to what your gentran has for circuits (usually 6 or 8).

Just last year I had the same thing done to my island camp on Winni. It worked out well as I had to increase my service panel anyway and a generator panel was no more money than a standard service panel.

FWIW;

Dan

CateP · 02-23-2011, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Having a generator backup is cheap insurance in my opinion and I wouldn't be without one.
Dan

Hi Dan,
Did you get a whole house generator or a portable one? I'm trying to create a budget for capital improvements for the house we buy. Glad I asked about power outages. It looks like most responses are advocating for getting a generator hooked up.
Cate

Lakesrider · 02-23-2011, 09:41 AM

I have a generator as well. Actually, I don't care where you live in New England you should have a generator.
BTW, No licensed electrician is going to hook a cable to your breaker box. First off it is illegal, secondly a fire hazard.
You need a switch box which is around $300.00.

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....m=shop+portals

Then you need to have someone get the connection mounted to the house, usually done by the electrician as well. All of this is done to protect the line workers from getting zapped by your generator. I believe that there is a hefty fine if they find out you were the one to zap a worker. More so if he dies.

You don't need a generator designed to run the town. A small one with enough power to run the fridge, furnace or propane stove, and a couple outlets.

Like this if you want a portable generator....

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....tor/p1843.html

or like this if you want an permanent mounted generator....

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....generators.php

Mine is a portable gasoline style that last about 6-7 hours at 1/2 load.
The bigger the gas tank and the longer the run time the better. Or you will need to refill more often, and at night that is a real pain in the frozen....ummm... behind.

Remember, "most" Outages last only a few hours. You will also need a very good system to lock up a portable one, from being stolen. A nice Kryponite cable motorcycle lock does a nice job to thwart thieves.
If your life depends on your computers you should invest in a computer compatible generator.
And while you have an electrician at your house you should have a whole home surge protector installed. Costs a few bucks but is actually cheap insurance for your home. Most electricians will suggest these for you.
And Cate I think you said you work from home so this especially important to protect your computers. My wife works from home quite often and uses company supplied computers so I had one installed for us. It protects everything in the home from surges or lightning strikes on the utility lines.

Another investment I made is to get an APC power backup for my electronics. This is because my generator does not have a line cleaner on it. Get one like this one....
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...0287&CatId=234
Doesn't have to be real expensive just one that says line conditioning on it.
This is important for your big screen TVs and computers. In Moultonborough you can watch your lights flicker on a minute by minute basis. Go to the Village Kitchen, the Library, Gas stations and sit there and watch the lights at night. They get bright and then go dim. Dim, then even dimmer, etc. It is the lovely NH Coop power we pay so much for. Nothing like bad power to ruin your electronics. This can shorten the life of your LCD or LED screens by years.
Sorry to ramble but I am a huge safety freak. I like to do most things myself. Electrical stuff is not one of them I always pay a professional for that stuff. So pay an electrician to install things properly. It could save your life.

CateP · 02-23-2011, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakesrider

If your life depends on your computers you should invest in a computer compatible generator.

Hi Lakesrider-amazing info. Thanks!! One thing I'm not clear about is a computer compatible generator. What is that and what feature am I looking for? It is essential that I am able to have reliable power and a high speed internet connection to do my work 24/7- 365 days.

Sue Doe-Nym · 02-23-2011, 10:24 AM

Part of your question deals with power outages, which depends to some extent on where you located. Several years ago NHEC embarked on an intense tree trimming program and it has paid dividends in terms of reducing outages. NHEC serves a number of towns in the Lakes Region but not all. However, basing a house buying decision on a specific electric utility is questionable.

As you can see from the above comments, everyone has their own opinion, there is no right or wrong to this question. Do what makes sense for YOU and your own situation.

upthesaukee · 02-23-2011, 10:27 AM

...and a generator will give you that.

The high speed internet connection can be interrupted by power outages, and perhaps you may want to look at one of those devices sold by Verizon, Sprint, etc. that allow you to connect via cell towers. Verizon has pay as you go and you can get coverage for a day, week, or month, with limitations on the amount of data that you can receive.

May be another form of back up you want to look into.

lawn psycho · 02-23-2011, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

Hooking up $75, 20-25 ft long cord to your existing circuit panel without a transfer switch is not recommended. I don’t know of any licensed electrician who will just hookup a power cord directly to your circuit panel.
A transfer switch is necessary to isolate the generator from the utility system when you install a back-up generator to your house’s wiring system. Failure to properly transfer your power places, you, your family, and utility workers at great risk of electrocution. Connecting a generator directly to any point of the home’s electrical wiring without a transfer switch is dangerous due to the possibility of “back-feeding.” Back-feeding happens when you connect your back-up generator directly to the home’s wiring without having a transfer switch. Without a transfer switch, your generator’s electricity can be sent back into the power grid from your house. This will energize the utility’s power lines in your street. This poses an electrocution hazard for utility workers and your neighbors who may not know that your voltage is present on the shared lines. If utility power is restored, your back-up generator and house wiring may be severely damaged.

I wired a transfer switch to my main circuit panel @ 15 yrs ago and I paid @ $300.00 for the transfer switch, wire and cable. I don’t know what the hardware and labor to install one would cost you.

Um, do you guys even have a clue what you are talking about?? I'll get the pictures.

Lakesrider · 02-23-2011, 10:39 AM

Good question. Most of the big, permanent mounted style generators provide clean power. Clean sine wave pattern for computers. However if you are only using the generator on sparse occasions and have only a small portable type your APC or UPS backup should do a very good job at cleaning the power up from the generator. That is why they have a line conditioner in them. To protect your electronics from dirty, spikey voltage.
Now the internet part is a whole 'nother issue. If you have and ice storm more than likely the internet is going to be disrupted as well. Not always but if a line breaks...your out. Kinda like the land based phone. remember the old school type that just plugged into the jack? Well you'll need one of those too, because if you have the wireless hand held style, those don't work when the power is out. We keep one of the old Slimline phones in a cabinet in the kitchen just for those times...

CateP · 02-23-2011, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

The high speed internet connection can be interrupted by power outages, and perhaps you may want to look at one of those devices sold by Verizon, Sprint, etc. that allow you to connect via cell towers.

More excellent advice here. Verizon has 4g usb modems that should fit the bill ...or should I say create a NEW bill

ishoot308 · 02-23-2011, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CateP

Hi Dan,
Did you get a whole house generator or a portable one? I'm trying to create a budget for capital improvements for the house we buy. Glad I asked about power outages. It looks like most responses are advocating for getting a generator hooked up.
Cate

Hi Cate;

I have two portable gas generators. One will do the entire house as it is 17500 watt beast and the other is a 6000 watt Honda. The 17500 watt one is a recent purchase. We bought it after the major ice storm we had a couple years ago when we lost power for well over a week. My wife wanted to be able to use everything in the house including the electric oven and washer and dryer if necessary!! (What can I tell you, she is a creature of comfort!

) The Honda is great for night time use as it is extremely quiet and sips fuel unlike the 17000 watt beast!

Believe it or not the Honda was more expensive! One thing about gas generators is the quieter they are, the more expensive they are!! (Haven't quite figured that out yet!

)

I guess it all depends what your budget is... In my previous home I got by for 15 years with a simple 6000 watt Coleman Powermate generator that I purchased at Sam's club for about $400.00. You just need to be careful how many circuits you turn on especially if you have a well pump as that draws a lot of juice. You can very easily burn out your well pump if you under power it, but I never had any issues and that generator paid for itself many times over and I still have it today!!

If you can afford it and in my opinion the best way to go is an automatic propane stand by generator like this one.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...5132_200365132

You set it and forget it! When you lose power it automatically starts up. It also starts up automatically once a month just to run for maintenance purposes. They cost more than a comparable portable gas generator of the same wattage, (between $3,000.00 - $5,000.00 depending on size selected) and you need a separate propane tank unless you have propane for other reasons in your home.

I think if you were to go portable gas, I would recommend something no less than 6000 watts. Cost for that size generator will run anywhere from $500.00 - $2,000.00 depending on brand and how quiet you want it.

I'm sure there are some electricians on here that can answer you better than I. This has just been my experience and what I know about generators thus far.

Good Luck!

Dan

lawn psycho · 02-23-2011, 10:55 AM

OK folks, let's get the misinformation corrected from Rusty and Lakerider.

I just snapped a quick image of one of my panels. Notice the upper right breaker and the steel plate just above it that also connects to the main "feed" breaker. That is an interlock. When power goes out, I open the main breaker, interlock goes up, and the 30A breaker connected to the generator cord gets closed. This gives the option of powering any circuit I want in the house of my chosing. You can't see in the picture but there are little white paint marks on the breakers I made so if I'm traveling I made it easier for my wife to not have to even think.

Totally legal, totally to code. Very efficient. I have a lot of money connected to my panel including line filtering and surge protection. I did not want a permanent generator for several reasons least of which I didn't like where I was going to have to place it and needing a huge gas bottle (ugly). I just built my house 2 years ago and went though the decision process.

This is precisely how a breaker panel in an existing home would be wired in (and the most economical) for a portable generator.

ishoot308 · 02-23-2011, 11:02 AM

That is a circuit panel with a built in transfer switch. This is exactly what I have and in my opinion the best way to go over a separate gentran switch.

I think Rusty and Lakesrider thought you were simply hard wiring your generator to your panel without a built in switch. Unfortunately many people do that and it's not a good thing.

Dan

Seeker · 02-23-2011, 11:30 AM

I highly recommend a standby generator for anywhere in this area. Also, I would not be without an automatic transfer switch. Suppose you are down in Mass when the power goes out for a few days and you can't get back here due to conditions?

You do not have to power the entire house. I have only 6 circuits on my Generac. They power the water pump, 75% of my lights and wall outlets, refrig/freezer, TV/PC and one of my garages. In hindsight I wish I had added a couple more for my back garage but I hadn't built it at that time.

The generator cycles every Sunday afternoon for 15 minutes or so.

Lakesrider · 02-23-2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

Um, do you guys even have a clue what you are talking about?? I'll get the pictures.

Nice! Well first off in your original post you didn't mention the fact that your main is locked out or that you had the cable wired to a breaker that had an interlock installed. I took it as you simply wired a cable into your panel. Not speaking for Rusty but I'll bet he thought the same thing.

I emailed two electricians a copy of your pic. One said "no way not code." "You cannot install a permanent extension cord in place of hardwired to a generator. Not only an electrical violation but also a fire violation. An extension cord is not supposed to be placed through windows or doors, and should be protected from damage. Hence a permanently installed, hard wired switch box is used, placing the connection outside on the wall."
I haven't heard back from the other one.
But hey it is your wife hooking up to a generator, not mine.

A switch box will simply allow you to the flexibility, and safety to not have to shut off your main breaker because the circuits are isolated by the switch.
When the power comes back on the lights and other things in the house will come on and alert you that the power is back on so you can shut off your generator.

So next time you want to tell people we don't know what we are talking about....be a bit nicer. I may not know everything...but I am smarter than a 5th grader.

lawn psycho · 02-23-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakesrider

Nice! Well first off in your original post you didn't mention the fact that your main is locked out or that you had the cable wired to a breaker that had an interlock installed. I took it as you simply wired a cable into your panel. Not speaking for Rusty but I'll bet he thought the same thing.

I emailed two electricians a copy of your pic. One said "no way not code." "You cannot install a permanent extension cord in place of hardwired to a generator. Not only an electrical violation but also a fire violation. An extension cord is not supposed to be placed through windows or doors, and should be protected from damage. Hence a permanently installed, hard wired switch box is used, placing the connection outside on the wall."
I haven't heard back from the other one.
But hey it is your wife hooking up to a generator, not mine.

A switch box will simply allow you to the flexibility, and safety to not have to shut off your main breaker because the circuits are isolated by the switch.
When the power comes back on the lights and other things in the house will come on and alert you that the power is back on so you can shut off your generator.

So next time you want to tell people we don't know what we are talking about....be a bit nicer. I may not know everything...but I am smarter than a 5th grader.

You need to find a new electrician

Rusty · 02-23-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

Um, do you guys even have a clue what you are talking about?? I'll get the pictures.

Why can't you answer a post without being sarcastic?

I said "Hooking up $75, 20-25 ft long cord to your existing circuit panel without a transfer switch is not recommended". The key words in my statement are "without a transfer switch". You didn't say that you hooked it to an interlock switch or anything else.
Maybe you think that average person should know that, but I don't think so.

Lakesrider · 02-23-2011, 11:50 AM

OK so getting back to it...Cate....just make sure you get it professionally installed. This way if there were ever an issue you'll be covered on your home insurance.

BTW...I love the fact that we agree to disagree here.

. I just want her to get it done safely and correctly that is all.

lawn psycho · 02-23-2011, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakesrider

OK so getting back to it...Cate....just make sure you get it professionally installed. This way if there were ever an issue you'll be covered on your home insurance.

BTW...I love the fact that we agree to disagree here.

. I just want her to get it done safely and correctly that is all.

I actually just called the State Fire Marshall's office (in NH) to close this out.

The panel interlock is new(er) technology and removes the need for the gentran switch.....

Lakesrider · 02-23-2011, 12:10 PM

Oky Doky...I just talked to a local generator company. They say it is legal to have the interlock such as the one in the picture. However they only install #10 hard wire inside the box and wire through the sill to a the female outlet with the twist lock plug going to the generator. If you want a switch it is primarily for the convenience that I mentioned.

So there are two sets of ideas going, which is why I suggest a professional install it and she is covered.

So I'll eat half a crow on this one and call it a day!

lawn psycho · 02-23-2011, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

Why can't you answer a post without being sarcastic?

I said "Hooking up $75, 20-25 ft long cord to your existing circuit panel without a transfer switch is not recommended". The key words in my statement are "without a transfer switch". You didn't say that you hooked it to an interlock switch or anything else.
Maybe you think that average person should know that, but I don't think so.

No, I think you guys are too sensitive. I wasn't being sarcastic.

A licensed electrician would know about the interlock (this is not a transfer switch). I was giving a geveral description of how the generator is hooked up, not a detailed "how-to". Hey, all I'm trying to do is give someone the information about the most economical way to get a generator set-up.

And to add, the Fire Marshall's office said that the generator is to be 10 ft from the house. I did not get into details about portable vs fixed and venting, etc, etc. The NEC is also subject too interpretation and despite all their efforts, ambiguity still exists. I also happen to have an NEC code book right on my desk....

Lakesrider · 02-23-2011, 12:14 PM

Hey I am all about learning stuff and I learned stuff today. It's a good day! Let's all have a beer for lunch!

lawn psycho · 02-23-2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakesrider

Hey I am all about learning stuff and Learned stuff today. It's a good day! Let all have a beer for lunch!

I only drink JD but I'll raise one too ya!

chipj29 · 02-23-2011, 12:51 PM

Cate, I bought a 6500 Watt (8500 Watt startup) portable generator recently. The first time I used it was only with extension cords, with it running only a few things (fridge, TV, oil furnace).
I recently had a transfer switch installed. It has 10 circuits, so I can power my well, furnace, TV, fridge, a bathroom and my bedroom. I have a couple other circuits as well, but would not run all 10 at once, not enough power. But to run only the essentials, my 6500W generator is plenty.

The transfer switch is hard-wired to the main circuit panel. It is also hard-wired to an outlet/receptacle that is mounted to the outside of the house, which is what the generator plugs in to. When there is a power outage, I just wheel the generator outside, fire it up, and plug it in. Then on the transfer panel I select which circuits I want to power up with the generator. It is pretty simple, but it is all manual.

The whole set-up, including the generator, transfer switch and installation of the transfer switch cost me about $1300.

jrc · 02-23-2011, 01:19 PM

I hate to go against the flow here but I would wait to decide on a generator. If you buy in a city, near the center of town, in a heavily populated area or near a main road then a generator is really not needed.

Sure you will lose power a few times a year for an hour or less. I'm sure that happens where you live now. Do you have generator now?

Now if you live away from sturdy infrastructure, then buy a generator. It's an expensive initial outlay and carries a maintenance cost. Unless you spend a fortune it will only provide emergency services. You have to make sure you have fresh and adequate fuel for it.

I would wait until you pick the house, if everyone around you has a generator then you probably need one. Otherwise, I would save my money. When the power goes out, jump in the car and drive to nice hotel, they're all empty in the winter.

CateP · 02-23-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

Sure you will lose power a few times a year for an hour or less. I'm sure that happens where you live now. Do you have generator now?

I would wait until you pick the house, if everyone around you has a generator then you probably need one. Otherwise, I would save my money. When the power goes out, jump in the car and drive to nice hotel, they're all empty in the winter.

This is also great advice and we aren't jumping into anything yet, just planning a budget.

I am not totally confident about our U.S. power grid, never mind PSNH 's reliability. I am fairly sure we are going to buy some kind of back up power, because that will make us feel better prepared.

Nobody has replied about what happened in the lakes region during the ice storm of 2008. Did the power stay out for 11 days?

winni83 · 02-23-2011, 02:08 PM

I just had an Interlock Kit http://www.interlockkit.com/index.htm installed by my electrician. It passed local code and is UL approved. See attached photo (not my set up). He also put in an outside connection box which feeds the generator into the circuit panel. It is designed so that you cannot turn on the breaker for the generator to power the panel unless the main breaker is off. Like others here, I had a portable generator that I used primarily during that big ice storm a few years ago and during another lengthy local power outage last year. I tired of running extension cords, dealing with getting power to the furnace, etc. I looked at both the traditional transfer switch with 6 to 10 circuits which must be chosen in advance and once chosen cannot be easily changed and the interlock kit. I went with the interlock kit because it supplies power to the entire circuit breaker panel. Obviously, you need to know how much you can power at once, but the interlock does give you the flexibility of, say, powering off most everything to run the microwave, oven, dryer or other high watt items if your generator can handle it. Now I am thinking of getting a bigger generator. Marking the essential circuits, the other circuits one might like and the circuits which should not be used unless most everything else is off (dryer, microwave, oven, etc.) makes it pretty easy. I run two refrigerators, two sump pumps, oil furnace and 5 or 6 lights all at once with no problem. A week after it was installed, we lost power for 5 hours and it was a breeze compared with the extension cord route. I turned on all circuits except the dryer and the stove and was careful not to turn on all the lights in the house.

To answer the question about the 2008 ice storm, in the southern area of the state, people were without power for anywhere from 2 to 3 days to upwards of a week or more. In the lakes region, my house was without power only for 4 to 5 hours (thank god for Freeze Alarms!!). Go figure, but the ice was much worse in the southern and western parts of the state than further to the north.

jrc · 02-23-2011, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CateP

...Nobody has replied about what happened in the lakes region during the ice storm of 2008. Did the power stay out for 11 days?

Well I don't live in the lakes region, but in Southern NH the power was out at my house for about 8 hours. I live in Hollis which is pretty rural but not isolated. My co-worker in New Boston, was out for four days, but he lives on top of a hill and miles from a paved road.

camp guy · 02-23-2011, 02:38 PM

In 2008 there were pockets of outage which may have lasted as long as 11 days, but this is very unusual. As someone said, PSNH has upgraded its tree trimming program, and so have many of the towns.

Besides all the discussion of how to wire it up, what is/is not Code, and who is giving the best advice, might I offer this nugget: If you end up living outside your Town's public water distribution system (which is very probable in rural NH and the Lakes Region) you will be getting your water from a well, and you need to realize that when there is a power outage you will be without water which translates to no toilet (!) (unless you have some containers set aside just for this circumstance). This, alone, may help you decide if you want a generator.

If you end up building a new home, certainly have it wired to be totally generator compatible, whether you install a generator at that time or not. If, down the road, you want to add the generator, it will be significantly easier to do, and, even in a totally generator compatible initial wiring job, you can still control how much you actually use with your breakers.

You raised a great question, Cate, and clearly one that got a lot of attention.

The question of a generator is certainly one which needs careful study, and the installation may vary from town to town, but never, never, take the cheap road, it just isn't worth it.

WINNOCTURN · 02-23-2011, 02:40 PM

I use an interlock setup on my panel. I prefer it to a transfer switch with a limited number of circuits available. With the interlock you can use of any circuit with in reason. One important aspect of setting up the panel is to balance the load on each "leg" L1 and L2. As you go down the panel each breaker is on a different Leg. You do not want two heavy Load appliances on the same leg, say the electric stove and a well pump. It takes more time moving breakers around to get a balanced load than installing the interlock, running the cable from the outside receptacle and wiring the panel.

SIKSUKR · 02-23-2011, 03:23 PM

I'll chime in here. First off, I won't be without a generator again. I have had a couple outages that lasted multiple days and when your house is about to totally freeze up that's not a fun thing to deal with. I have a couple portable 6000 watt units but only to use another one for others. I am the bad guy that hooked his up to a spare double pole breaker to power the whole panel. I do like the interlock setup that I see here though. I don't bother switching breakers on or off, I just power up everything. My brain is the switch. I run anything that is needed like my well pump, fridge, furnace, any lights and certainly my tv. Just can't run hi power users like oven and dryer. One burner on my stove is even fine. If it were me I would at least get a portable for convienence sake. Its nice to have the outside lights on watching tv while the neighbors are sitting with candles.

donnamatrix · 02-23-2011, 04:05 PM

Wow. so much information. We live in Moultonboro - in Suissevale. My husband is self employed and works from home. In 2007, at the time of the VA Tech shootings, our power was out for several days. But, it's okay because we have a portable generator. We had Emerson Electric install the switch panel and all the other goodies. It runs everything in the office, the fridge, lights, etc. I run a single extension cord to keep the small freezer in teh basement running. I would not ever be without a generator living in our part of Moultonboro- there are many instances where we've lost power, this is just one story. All in all the generator was about $1,000 and the installation was about $1,000 and well worth it.

codeman671 · 02-23-2011, 04:12 PM

We installed a 15kw GE permanent backup system with a whole house transfer switch and a dedicated 320 gallon propane tank. We can go for a long time without power. With a new baby in the house and my company relocating from a 5 minute to a 30 minute commute, I did not want to have to rush home if the power went out to keep my wife happy. This system fires up within 10 seconds of the power going out and I am fully operational within 25 seconds of initial loss.

I can run an entire 4300sqft home including the hot tub with it. The only problem I have ever noticed is startup load. In the summer, if the power goes out the generator will kick out if trying to start all 3 AC condensers and the hot tub at once. That is a huge load. It will run them all as long as they are not turned on at the same time.

I also have a 5kw portable that will actually run more than one would think. A few years ago we tied it in and ran the entire house except for the dryer and oven. It was done in a pinch but it got us through. We tied into the box outside for the hot tub and shut off the main as not to backfeed the lines. Certainly not code (or recommended) but probably a lot safer than some of the nightmares I have seen other people do when desperate.

The moral of the story is have it done professionally and make sure whatever you do, you size it properly.

winni83 · 02-23-2011, 05:08 PM

One issue to keep in mind with the gasoline powered generators is that they need GAS. I keep about 4 five gallon containers on hand, treated with the blue stuff, and try to use them up each year, or put into the car. With extensive outages, finding a gas station that can pump gas can be a problem. During the ice storm in 2008 my son in law in the western part of the state had to drive 15 miles to get gas -- and there were lines of cars. If I were building from scratch I would go the propane powered whole house route. Also, having a gas stove, gas dryer and gas hot water heater, or hot water off the furnace will reduce your load needs considerably.

wifi · 02-23-2011, 06:40 PM

I agree with propane fuel, I have 4 different size gennies standing by, but if you have an oil furnace, you might consider a diesel with some expanded storage..

upthesaukee · 02-23-2011, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CateP

This is also great advice and we aren't jumping into anything yet, just planning a budget.

I am not totally confident about our U.S. power grid, never mind PSNH 's reliability. I am fairly sure we are going to buy some kind of back up power, because that will make us feel better prepared.

Nobody has replied about what happened in the lakes region during the ice storm of 2008. Did the power stay out for 11 days?

I am sure there were certain areas that had extended outages. My street in Alton had about 7 or 8 houses that had no power for I think I was 5 days, maybe 6. When the power companies work at restoring power, it is the larger population areas first, which are often the easiest to get repaired. Then it is out into usually more rural areas, with the most rural and least populated being the last to get back on line.

Bottom line, one of these days when we have some spare change, we will get a generator, but in the meantime, it is the woodstove aroaring, drinking water from our daughter's house who is on town water, and cook on the gas stove. Love NH, and sometimes it's fun not having TV and only having the candles and woodstove for light. Makes for some nice conversation.

Natt · 02-23-2011, 09:01 PM

Probably best to wait and see what you buy for a house. We live out in the boonies, have underground power to the house and hardly ever lose power anymore. And when we do, it is not for too long. We heat with wood, so no problem there and candles work great. But putting aside money for a generator is a good idea, just save it for awhile and decide later, IMO. Natt's wife

Rattlesnake Guy · 02-23-2011, 11:19 PM

I am so happy to have learned about the panel interlock. What a great solution.

The conversation reminds me of a conversation I had with my neighbor when Y2K was heating up and everyone was convinced that the power would go out on Jan 1, 2000. He installed a whole house generator and was ready for the impending crisis. When asked what my plan was, I replied that I had purchased a 600 foot extension cord. At least he laughed.

http://www.interlockkit.com/intro2.htm

RLW · 02-24-2011, 07:15 AM

I have noticed several threads saying that they have underground service and haven't had any or very little power outages at their homes. Having underground wire only helps an individual that has lot's of tree in ones yard that may fall and disconnect the power, however most power outages happen miles away from ones underground services making that part of the installation useless.
I'm a great believer in a FULL home backup electricity both when one is a seasonal resident with a heated home or if they are year round residents. One has the greatest peace of mind just knowing that EVERYTHING will be working when it is needed. I have been on the lake now for 54 years (seasonal/full time) and installed the generator 2 years ago and it sure was well worth it for my wife and I. We can take off for any length of time and not worry. We also have an alarm to notify us if temp goes to low for a burner service problem and whole house security/fire alarm is always doing it's job.

lawn psycho · 02-24-2011, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WINNOCTURN

I use an interlock setup on my panel. I prefer it to a transfer switch with a limited number of circuits available. With the interlock you can use of any circuit with in reason. One important aspect of setting up the panel is to balance the load on each "leg" L1 and L2. As you go down the panel each breaker is on a different Leg. You do not want two heavy Load appliances on the same leg, say the electric stove and a well pump. It takes more time moving breakers around to get a balanced load than installing the interlock, running the cable from the outside receptacle and wiring the panel.

WINNOCTURN, when balancing loads it is based on continuous rating. Note that if you add up all the breaker current ratings that they greatly exceed the 200A rating. You would have to know exactly how long each light and appliance is running and at what times to "balance" the loads. In most cases, it's impossible to do.

Also, the buses are designed to more or less balance the loads for you (notice how the tabs alternate). The balanced load concept is a hold-over from the old days with 60A fuse panels.

This conversation could get really in-depth but this is what I do for a living.

LIforrelaxin · 02-24-2011, 11:36 AM

Some thoughts on Generators... It funny that this has become such a concern in say the last 20 years. But Hey it is hard to get along with out all the conveniences you are used to. Now when looking at whether or not you need to get a generator or not, and additionally if you get a generator, is a major question which needs a good deal of thought.

Over the years I have pondered this question often. Every time I end up at the same point, that yes a generator would be nice to have, but I would rather tie the money up else where. I have lived through several multiday outages and always survived with minimal inconvenience.

Now am I saying that I don't believe a generator is a wise investment, I am saying that you need to make sure its justified for you case.

Some of the questions that need to be answered are:

if you lose power do you still have a water source? -- if you have a well the answer is no, and a generator will help solve this issue

if you loose power and have water, will you have hot water? -- If you have a propane water heater the answer to this could be yes, otherwise the answer is no, and once again may add fuel to getting a generator

Do you have reliable light source if the power is out? --- I personally still keep oil lamps around just for this purpose, and of course now married I have a wife that has a huge supply of scented candles which work too...

Can you keep yourself entertained with out your radio, tv, computer, and other electrical appliances? -- if the answer is no once again fuel for the generator.

Finally we have heat, How will you heat with no power? Well this is in most cases the driving issue... but here are some thing to think about.. loosing heat for six hours, how much will the house cool down? Loosing heat for 2 days how much will the house cool down. Well As I mentioned I have survived many multi day power outages... I have always had fireplaces to provide some heat, and at time propane heaters that continue to work with out power. I have had the power out for 4 to 5 days in very cold weather. While I will admit that houses get cold, I have never felt like I was going to have issue with pipe breaking etc. Was I comfortable well with a winter jacket on yes...

what is my bottom line, while you can get a small generator for a few hundred dollars, you are only going to be able to power certain things. If you spend thousands of dollars you can power most of your house. If you don't invest in the generator, what can you use the money for? Is it worth investing the money on the chance of the next big multi-day power outage? can you live with out power for 6-12 hours, for normal winter outages?
If you can't live with out the power you should invest in a big generator, the money will be worth it at some point. If you can live with inconvenience, but want to be ready just in case of the "big" multi-day event, then getting a 6000W generator can be advantages... And finally, if you just want to make sure that during a big multi-day event you can power, your refrigerator, freezer, a small heater, or a light one at a time through the course of a day, well then a 2000W generator and some extension cords go a long way.

For me, I still don't own a generator, I just don't feel like spending the money to watch it sit. If I was building a house, would I make sure the house was generator compatible? yes I would. I know far to may people that have bought a generator after being inconvenienced by one single multi-day event, and then never had the need to use it after. If and when I finally decide to get a generator, I alredy know, I am just going after a small unit 2000W or so... Just so I don't have to loose a freezer full of food, or can have a light to read bye. Everything else I can do with out for a few days. The only reason I would ever consider a bigger generator is if I had a well, and needed it to make sure I had water pressure.

WINNOCTURN · 02-24-2011, 11:38 AM

lawn psycho

Also, the buses are designed to more or less balance the loads for you (notice how the tabs alternate). The balanced load concept is a hold-over from the old days with 60A fuse panels.

I may have used used the wrong term as for "balancing" the load. What you refer to about the "TABs" is what I was looking at. When I refereed to L1 and L2 that was the Tabs. The attempt here is to avoid too many "high load" items on one leg. This is also done in an attempt to keep the Load on the generator even.

Not shown in the pics is an little box I wired with 2 amp meters to see the generator load, one on each leg and 2 "Green" panel lamps wired (and switched) to the L1 & L2 before the main breaker. This gives me a visual as to when the street side power comes back on.

I hemed and hawed for several years about getting a generator. I finally broke down an bought one three years ago. Talk about a good insurance policy, I have only needed to use it one since. I'm just waiting for the BIG ONE!

dpg · 02-24-2011, 11:51 AM

Cate - do you analyze grocery shopping this much? I'd starve living with you!

Kamper · 02-24-2011, 12:29 PM

If anything here is a repeat I apologise. I skimmed the responses and did not see it.

Get a battery back-up for your computer. That way you don't crash everytime the power flickers. Since you'll be drawing power out of the battery it will be 'compatable' with your computer. I'm a telecommuter and this allows me to service my current call before I need to hook up the emergency power.

I have a 3500 watt portable. This is enough for my furnace and to rotate among a few other things like my fridge. You may not feel comfortable doing to your furnace what I do to mine to use a portable genset. But it is a cheaper option than auto-switches and whole-house systems.

First I shut-off the circuit breaker for the furnace.

Next I go to the furnace emergency shut-off box. (Normally there are two. One is some where in the living spaces of the house and the other is near the furnace. My power comes in thrugh the switch near the furnace. If yours is different you might want to get it re-wired if you want to do this procedure.) I shut this switch off too, for now.

I disconnect ALL three strands of wire that lead to the C/B box. I want to be absolutely certain no power an get back into the lines, or have main power come in, if there's an unknown flaw somewhere. I have made up a plug on a length of romex cable. I tie and cap the loose ends into the leads going to the switch box and put the plug into a heavy duty cord to the generator.

Turn on the generator. Turn the furnace switch(es) back to "ON."

Hope for the best. So far, so good!

When power is restored, reverse the procedure. Turning off the genset and furnace switches while re-arranging the connections and leave the circuit-breaker for last.

You may hear people talk about a "suicide plug." That's where they have a double ended plugged cord (usually stove plugs or electric dryer plugs). One end to the generator and the other into the stove/dryer plug. Improperly done this can leak power back to the mains and endanger the line workers or a neighbor thinking their system is cold. I won't tell you the least dangerous way to set it up because I would not want to be responsible for being wrong.

Of course you use the advice on this thread at your own risk!

Good luck!

WINNOCTURN · 02-24-2011, 01:11 PM

kamper

Here is a neat and clean way to re-wire the furnace and not even have to turn the Furnace breaker off.

Slickcraft · 02-24-2011, 03:12 PM

WINNOCTURN, now that is so straightforward that many will have a hard time getting their mind around the concept!

Actually pretty neat. The only downside I can see is not having the use of the upstairs emergency shut off switch as I assume you have this right above the furnace.

We do have a single circuit transfer switch that I installed at the power panel to power the furnace.
http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Prod...il.aspx?TF151W

WINNOCTURN · 02-24-2011, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

WINNOCTURN, now that is so straightforward that many will have a hard time getting their mind around the concept!

Actually pretty neat. The only downside I can see is not having the use of the upstairs emergency shut off switch as I assume you have this right above the furnace.

We do have a single circuit transfer switch that I installed at the power panel to power the furnace.
http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Prod...il.aspx?TF151W

Slick,

The way my Furnace circuit is run, the cable starts at the breaker panel, goes to the first floor "Safety Switch" (the one with the RED cover plate) then down to the Furnace Shut Off switch witch is mounted directly to the side of the furnace. With this type of run the first floor switch could be used to initially turn the power off to the Receptacle and not have to go to the breaker.

On my switch box at the furnace there is a wired receptacle for my condensate pump (AC). When you power up the system you can plug in a lamp of some type to light up the area.

wifi · 02-24-2011, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WINNOCTURN

....(notice how the tabs alternate)......

Actually the alternating tabs serve the (additional and) primary function of allowing double wide 220V breakers to be placed anywhere.

WINNOCTURN · 02-24-2011, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wifi

Actually the alternating tabs serve the (additional and) primary function of allowing double wide 220V breakers to be placed anywhere.

I am lucky that I went with mostly Gas appliances (Heat, Hot water and Stove) so the only 220 single phase breakers I have are my Wife's Dryer and the well pump.

RLW · 02-24-2011, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Some thoughts on Generators... It funny that this has become such a concern in say the last 20 years. But Hey it is hard to get along with out all the conveniences you are used to. Now when looking at whether or not you need to get a generator or not, and additionally if you get a generator, is a major question which needs a good deal of thought.

Over the years I have pondered this question often. Every time I end up at the same point, that yes a generator would be nice to have, but I would rather tie the money up else where. I have lived through several multiday outages and always survived with minimal inconvenience.

Now am I saying that I don't believe a generator is a wise investment, I am saying that you need to make sure its justified for you case.

Some of the questions that need to be answered are:

if you lose power do you still have a water source? -- if you have a well the answer is no, and a generator will help solve this issue

if you loose power and have water, will you have hot water? -- If you have a propane water heater the answer to this could be yes, otherwise the answer is no, and once again may add fuel to getting a generator

Do you have reliable light source if the power is out? --- I personally still keep oil lamps around just for this purpose, and of course now married I have a wife that has a huge supply of scented candles which work too...

Can you keep yourself entertained with out your radio, tv, computer, and other electrical appliances? -- if the answer is no once again fuel for the generator.

Finally we have heat, How will you heat with no power? Well this is in most cases the driving issue... but here are some thing to think about.. loosing heat for six hours, how much will the house cool down? Loosing heat for 2 days how much will the house cool down. Well As I mentioned I have survived many multi day power outages... I have always had fireplaces to provide some heat, and at time propane heaters that continue to work with out power. I have had the power out for 4 to 5 days in very cold weather. While I will admit that houses get cold, I have never felt like I was going to have issue with pipe breaking etc. Was I comfortable well with a winter jacket on yes...

what is my bottom line, while you can get a small generator for a few hundred dollars, you are only going to be able to power certain things. If you spend thousands of dollars you can power most of your house. If you don't invest in the generator, what can you use the money for? Is it worth investing the money on the chance of the next big multi-day power outage? can you live with out power for 6-12 hours, for normal winter outages?
If you can't live with out the power you should invest in a big generator, the money will be worth it at some point. If you can live with inconvenience, but want to be ready just in case of the "big" multi-day event, then getting a 6000W generator can be advantages... And finally, if you just want to make sure that during a big multi-day event you can power, your refrigerator, freezer, a small heater, or a light one at a time through the course of a day, well then a 2000W generator and some extension cords go a long way.

For me, I still don't own a generator, I just don't feel like spending the money to watch it sit. If I was building a house, would I make sure the house was generator compatible? yes I would. I know far to may people that have bought a generator after being inconvenienced by one single multi-day event, and then never had the need to use it after. If and when I finally decide to get a generator, I alredy know, I am just going after a small unit 2000W or so... Just so I don't have to loose a freezer full of food, or can have a light to read bye. Everything else I can do with out for a few days. The only reason I would ever consider a bigger generator is if I had a well, and needed it to make sure I had water pressure.

Thats a well told story, however you left out one of the biggest concerns for many newer home owners and that is the pumped up septic system.

CateP · 02-24-2011, 06:01 PM

I just wanted to thank everyone who is posting on this subject. I think it is very educational. I have learned more about practical generator options and set ups than in most places I have researched. (Usually the folks who install and sell them) Would it be a more appropriate discussion for the Home, Cottage and Maintenance discussion area? I'm not sure everyone looks there.

And to dpg- I assume you were kidding around with me about that remark about over analyzing things. I don't think I have been over-analyzing. I have been asking questions that I am genuinely curious about and people have been responding. I consider this forum a place to share knowledge and opinion. I am trying to learn things here, not analyze things to death. Sheesh, if you want to talk about over-analysis look at the Ward Bird discussion...now THAT was a lot of analysis.

wifi · 02-24-2011, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLW

Thats a well told story, however you left out one of the biggest concerns for many newer home owners and that is the pumped up septic system.

How right you are, and if you have no power, or the pump is OOS, you are !$! out of luck

Kamper · 02-24-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WINNOCTURN

kamper

Here is a neat and clean way to re-wire the furnace and not even have to turn the Furnace breaker off. ...

Unfortunatly that is not in code. Neither is the way I do it but for an emergency situation nobody is going to bother me. Lovel the diagram though.

KDL · 02-24-2011, 07:59 PM

One more bit of information, interlocks on circuit breakers to transfer from normal power to generator power is not acceptable to some utility companies. Best to check with someone that knows local regulations before installation.

Rattlesnake Guy · 02-24-2011, 10:07 PM

From the New Hampshire Electric Coop Web Site.

If you've installed a generator anywhere in Co-op service territory, your Co-op needs to know about it. The Co-op offers a free inspection of any generator installed on our system. We’ll come to your property and make sure the transfer switch is wired properly to meet national electric codes. In addition to helping us update our records, you’ll also be keeping our line workers safe.
For more information or to schedule an inspection, please call 1-800-698-2007, or e-mail us.

WINNOCTURN · 02-25-2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

From the New Hampshire Electric Coop Web Site.

If you've installed a generator anywhere in Co-op service territory, your Co-op needs to know about it. The Co-op offers a free inspection of any generator installed on our system. We’ll come to your property and make sure the transfer switch is wired properly to meet national electric codes. In addition to helping us update our records, you’ll also be keeping our line workers safe.
For more information or to schedule an inspection, please call 1-800-698-2007, or e-mail us.

Good Advise! The guy you have to look out for is the one that back feeds the system through the DRYER PLUG and never bothers to open the main breaker.

Both Lowes and Home Depot carry them for Square D panels. They run around $12.00. Easy to install. I know neither would sell them if they were not approved in NH

jrc · 02-25-2011, 01:47 PM

I don't know if Gilford has NH Elec Coop but there are a few hundred boats there with generators and interlocks very similar to those shown in theis thread. I wonder if they want to inspect them all?

My boat has a generator and a sliding interlock setup so that shore power and the generator cannot both power the boat and the generator cannot backfeed the shore power line. Every boat with a generator I've seen had a similiar set-up I'm sure they meet the NEC.

SIKSUKR · 02-25-2011, 02:04 PM

This might be an appropriate thread for todays weather and may well answer the question. Very heavy wet snow/sleet/rain in the Manchester area will likely produce power outages in some parts of the state. As of 2:00 pm 1300 PSNH customers are without power, most being in southwest NH.

KDL · 02-25-2011, 10:48 PM

Just because a device is sold, UL listed, or meets NEC, does not automatically make it acceptable to all agencies in all locations. Not saying interlocks are a bad thing. Just need to check first. I wish they were allowed in more places.

TheProfessor · 02-26-2011, 09:38 AM

I don't have any generators.

But would I like one. Yes. I have found no urgent need for one yet.

But as mentioned there is the storm of the century. In southern NH where they went for weeks without power. And a few years before that over in the Enfield Canaan area - went for weeks without power. So it could happen here.

I think that the types of generators have been explained and how they hook up to circuit panel have been explained. Both the correct code way and the other ways.

As mentioned, if electricty goes out so does internet most times. So getting a generator may not solve any internet issues. Mostly, the hard wired land line old fashioned phones don't go out with any power outage. So a dial-up internet connection may still be available. But then you would need a dial-up ISP.

Portable generators versus the bigger generators. Well, that is a decision only you can make.

With the bigger stationary generators you may pay anywhere from $3,000 to $10,000. And you will need a source of fuel - usually propane. And a placement spot for both the generator and the propane tank. And if the house is not heated with propane - another fuel account for the propane. And you may pay a higher cost for propane if propane is not your primary souce of heating. Some propane companies have a sliding scale for cost versus usage. This year I have seen propane at close to $5.00 per gallon for spot. But this cost may be a non-issue as you may not use this generator very much. Some of the better ones are on a timer and do a self-check every month and are hooked up to telephones or even computers
so you do get a monthly reminder that all is working well.

The portable generators. $500.00, $1,000.00 etc. These need gasoline. And most newer ones have a 5 gallon tank. Then you need extra gasoline around the house/garage. And that will not last if there is a severe ice storm with long time outage. Yes, you can drive to other areas with empty gasoline cans and continually restock your gasolline supply. For basic necessities a 6,000 to 8,000 watt portable gasoline generator will do. And you need only to hook up the well pump, the furnace/heater, and refridgrator and a couple of lights. And you will get by.

If you do go with a portable generator stick with engines manufactured by Honda, Yamaha, or Subaru. A portable (all generators) generator has two parts. The engine and the electrical part. Honda, Yamaha, and Subaru do make both parts and can be more expensive. While other companies make the electrical part and use Honda, Yamaha, and Subaru engines. As I have stated before, stay away from no-name engines. China junk engines. Also, some of these portable generators have a battery and are electric start.

With the larger generators. Purchase from someone local who installs such and will be around to repair if necessary. Me, I would ask to visit some homeowners who have had such a generator installed. References, I guess. And with these also, check who manufactures the engine. If it is a no-name engine then walk away and purchase from someone else. And again, Briggs & Stratton are now manufacturing engines in China. And don't purchase anything with the name Sears on it.

Again, I don't have a generator. And I have managed fine. But if you want peace of mind then do take the plunge. Do it right the first time and you may come out ahead.

Just a side note and a tidbit story:

A friend purchased a new home constructed by one of the best known builders of lake front property in the Lakes Region. An expensive year round Summer home. Part of the purchase was a $10,000 "automatic" generator - propane powered. In this home the owner had a temperature sensor - a dial out if temperature inside reached a low number. On the first power outage the generator did not automatically turn on. It never turned on. The installer was called to fix. Nothing was found wrong with generator. The second power outage - another telephone call as inside temerature had gone down. Generator 2nd time did not automatically come on. Another call to installer/electrician. Again, no issues found. Note. By the time the electrician/installer arrived to check generator - the power had come back on. So installer/electrician never actually viewed generator with power off. Yes, installer/electrician did do all sorts of checks. And all components worked perfectly during these checks. What caused these malfunctions or issues with this expensive generator? Improper installation? Wrong brand of generator? Mabye all was eventually ironed out. I did not continue to follow story. The house was ultimately sold for other reasons.

CateP · 02-26-2011, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

As mentioned, if electricty goes out so does internet most times. So getting a generator may not solve any internet issues.

As always Professor your post is most informative. I should just copy and paste them into a Word doc called " Good to Know."

As for loss of internet service I am looking into a 4g USB modem from Verizon so I can use the cellular signal in an outage. As long as I can keep my computer powered and get a signal I'm good to go.

I'm going to take a lot of the great advice here and see what situation we end up in.

Thanks again Professor.

This'nThat · 03-01-2011, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

As mentioned, if electricty goes out so does internet most times. So getting a generator may not solve any internet issues.

Not true. Internet is separate, and my experience with power outages in the Lakes region is just the opposite -- the internet has always remained on. You'll need the generator for the modem and router, of course -- but not for the internet signal itself.

TheProfessor · 03-01-2011, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by This'nThat

Not true. Internet is separate, and my experience with power outages in the Lakes region is just the opposite -- the internet has always remained on. You'll need the generator for the modem and router, of course -- but not for the internet signal itself.

OK.

Here are the main types of interent connections:

1. Dial up

2. Broadband

3. DSL

4. Satellite

So yes, some will work and some will not work in a power outage.

This'nThat · 03-02-2011, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

OK.

Here are the main types of interent connections:

1. Dial up

2. Broadband

3. DSL

4. Satellite

So yes, some will work and some will not work in a power outage.

You're confusing people. Your original statement implied that a generator wouldn't help a person restore their internet connection. And that's simply not true. A person's internet signal is not tied to their house's electricity. It's separate, and is not linked to a general power outage. Therefore, if you can restore your electricity [to run the devices you need to connect to the internet], you can get back onto the internet.

tis · 03-02-2011, 07:40 AM

You know, Cate, after this long discussion, I have to say I don't believe power outages are that big of a deal in the Lakes Region-at least on the east side of the lake. Overall, we seldom lose our power and when we do, it is usually back on in less than an hour. The longest time I ever remember a long outage was the ice storm. So if I were moving here, it would be a minor concern for me. (Watch, after I said this we will get a major outage!)

Kamper · 03-02-2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by This'nThat

Not true. Internet is separate, ... -- the internet has always remained on. ...

If your 'net service comes over the wire and a tree takes out a line, or a vehicle knocks over a pole, you will lose service if you are 'down stream' from that break. Frequently the various services are deliverred to you from different directions and in the event of an outage, might be re-routed to you from different directions as well. The more remote your locaton is, the fewer routing options there might be with service reaching you through choke points and you might be at a service 'dead-end.' You might also be located between two switches and powerring up your section could charge a broken line which they do not want to do.

That's why you can lose one service without losing the rest, or recover some sooner than others.

.

lawn psycho · 03-02-2011, 08:58 AM

Go outside and look at the wires near your house. The top wires carry the power. As you go down you will see smaller wires. Depending on where you live there may be different sets but the lower wires are your phone, fiber optic lines, cable, etc.

A lot of times you can lose power as a tree limb that touches the wires and pulls on it and they are set to trip the after 2-3 surges. The lower lines stay connected so if you power your house up with a generator, everything else is good to go. It's only when the poles snap or wires actually short/arc that you lose cable/telephone/optic lines.

You ever notice how it's fairly rare for you low voltage land-line telephone to go out? It's partly do to system design (I'm sure there's tons of places to read about on the web about why it works so good and why it's been hard for companies to get rid of it) and because the wires are lower on the poles and get protection from up above.

My recommendation is to save the money on a UPS for the home and get a generator with electronic grade filtering. The different generator companies call them different names according to their trademarks but you'll see it in the specs for distortion. Most have started putting this on the output of their generators as a selling point once you get above the $500-600 cheapies. I have a contractor grade Generac generator and it's a pretty clean signal.

If you REALLY need a UPS system for your electronics, odds are you are tecnically inclined enough to not need advice from an internet forum on why you need it (like critical servers). A UPS for a single laptop/desktop is silly if you ask me and I'm one of those people who typically waste money on gadgets.

camp guy · 03-02-2011, 09:00 AM

After reading the most recent 18 or so posts about generators and hooking up generators I am scared to absolute death about what some of you are doing. Any one who thinks that no one worries about Code in an emergency is totally wrong. The Code is all about life safety, not whether or not you have power.

Please, people, DO NOT TAKE SHORT CUTS when wiring up a generator, of any type or size. Use the services of a qualified, licensed electrician, and keep in close touch with your local Building Inspector and Code Enforement Officer.

There is no substitute for doing it correctly.

RLW · 03-02-2011, 09:07 AM

My feelings regarding power outages is, one needs to install one of these to put yourself safely at ease. The $6K for the unit (17 KW), excavating, purchasing the 2 100 gallon gas tanks (7 day supply)and all labor for the gas and electrical conections and the best transfer switch is one hell'ave cheap cost for peace of mind.

lawn psycho · 03-02-2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camp guy

The Code is all about life safety, not whether or not you have power.

This is why the lineman either work the downed lines as assumed live or they physically disconnect the circuit they are working on. People always talk about protecting the power company but it's really to protect their personal electrical system and house.

A generator not disconnected from the lines won't like being turned into a motor when power is restored.

SIKSUKR · 03-02-2011, 10:14 AM

In the last 12 years and 3 extended outages of at least 2 days I have never lost my cable, only the electricity. As soon as my generator was started I was watching tv. On one outage I saw a Comcast truck down the road from me. When it was gone I saw they had placed a small generator at the pole. I assumed it was powering the cable because somehow the cable power feed was disconnected but the signal was there.

RLW · 03-02-2011, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

This is why the lineman either work the downed lines as assumed live or they physically disconnect the circuit they are working on. People always talk about protecting the power company but it's really to protect their personal electrical system and house.
A generator not disconnected from the lines won't like being turned into a motor when power is restored.

I have never said this in a forum before, but I am going to right now. I totally disagree with the under lined part of your statement. Line man can be working at several locations on a particular line and they do not shut the power off to ALL locations. SAFETY is the number 1 reason to notify the power company about generators and to have certified electricians wire units to CODE. If they didn't need to they wouldn't take the time to write the code for safety.

lawn psycho · 03-02-2011, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLW

I have never said this in a forum before, but I am going to right now. I totally disagree with the under lined part of your statement. Line man can be working at several locations on a particular line and they do not shut the power off to ALL locations. SAFETY is the number 1 reason to notify the power company about generators and to have certified electricians wire units to CODE. If they didn't need to they wouldn't take the time to write the code for safety.

This will be my last post in this thread as there is just too much generalization and "common knowledge" being passed along.

Lineman will use protocol to assume wires are live and use precautions as such. Call PSNH or talk to a lineman about what they do. Look closely at the aprons and gloves they are using. I've got hands-on working experience with working lines.

I know that in the couple times a year we lose power I don't have to sweat waiting for power to come back.

Rusty · 03-02-2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLW

I have never said this in a forum before, but I am going to right now. I totally disagree with the under lined part of your statement. Line man can be working at several locations on a particular line and they do not shut the power off to ALL locations. SAFETY is the number 1 reason to notify the power company about generators and to have certified electricians wire units to CODE. If they didn't need to they wouldn't take the time to write the code for safety.

I agree with you RLW...

This is what PSNH has to say about it:

"When improperly installed, a generator—no matter how small you might think it is—can backfeed dangerous amounts of electricity into the electrical grid beyond your home. The electricity, once on “the grid” is quickly “stepped up” to much higher and dangerous voltages. This can cause fires as well as be a danger to nearby residents, and to utility line technicians."

NoRegrets · 03-02-2011, 11:28 AM

I thought I would look up the term Jury Rigged and found this description:

"Jury rigging refers to makeshift repairs or temporary contrivances, made with only the tools and materials that happen to be on hand. Originally a nautical term, on sailing ships a jury rig is a replacement mast and yards improvised in case of damage or loss of the original mast." Wikepedia

We have lost power 4 times in the winter for more than 3 days over a 24 year period (twice within the past 5). We "jury rig" our setup but I always pull the main breaker insuring nothing can go out of my home circuits for the safety of the linemen. I do believe this is the most critical aspect of the operation. If you electricute yourself, you pay the price. It is not fair to place others at risk.

I am amazed I have not heard of horror stories of injury or death with all the generaters that have been purchased in the last 30 years. Maybe we are not as "dumb" as our laws suggest.

One of my main reasons for the generator was to prevent the house from freezing and having serious plumbing problems. Now that has been replaced by comfort. Another great Winni thread....

IslandRadio · 03-02-2011, 02:57 PM

I would absolutely get a generator. I have one and it is used at least 4 or 5 times per year, and sometimes for a long time (like, 10 days in a row!!!!).

A few random thoughts:

Internet Service Most cable systems RELY on street power. When the street power is out for more than some number of hours, the system dies and so does your Internet. DSL does not suffer from this problem, but it is also not available in many (most?) areas. If you depend on the Internet during a power outage, consider a backup solution for this as well.

Computers and UPSs Generators generally produce less than perfect, but perfectly usable power. Some UPSs are VERY sensitive to things like frequency (more than 2 cycles per second from the requisite 60 cycles (or Hz) is considered an "outage", and the UPS will revert to batteries. Check this!!!!! Generators usually do not produce a perfect 60Hz output, and in fact, it can vary 5Hz either way. Not a big problem for most equipment - AC motors that are synched to the line frequency will run faster or slower, depending... but not by much (5Hz is less than 10% of the line frequency).

Voltage: This is not nearly as big a problem as frequency, but can be. Check the voltage range of the UPS before it determines the power as "unusable".

How much power This depends on what you need to operate. If you have a well pump that runs on 240V and takes 20 amperes, that's 4800 watts right there, and you should have at least twice that capacity for other things to be able to work as well.

Portable of built in? Depends on your particular setup. You can get a 10kw portable, 120/240V output, and that's usually plenty for most homes unless you want to run several burners on your electric stove at the same time. Electric dryers should not be run - they suck a lot of power for a long time.

A handy person who knows electrical wiring can hook them up safely (your own house, of course), but if you don't know what you're doing, don't do it.

I have an old (1940s) military gas powered unit - 4 cyl, 12.5kW that puts out an unregulated 250 Volts, floating. I had to use an AC voltage regulator and a balancing center tapped transformer to produce standard 115/230V power. It does work very well.

Regards,

Steve

This'nThat · 03-02-2011, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IslandRadio

How much power This depends on what you need to operate. If you have a well pump that runs on 240V and takes 20 amperes, that's 4800 watts right there, and you should have at least twice that capacity for other things to be able to work as well.

IslandRadio is correct. You have to correctly size the generator. Here's a table of typical power requirements for some common appliances. Most generators sold these days have a "running wattage" rating and a "startup wattage" rating.

G EN E R A T O R W O R K S H E E T
	RUNNING WATTAGE REQUIREMENTS	ADDITIONAL STARTING WATTAGE REQUIREMENTS	TOTALS
HEATING/COOLING:
Furnace Fan, gas or fuel oil furnace
1/8 horsepower	300	500
1/6 horsepower	500	750
1/4 horsepower	600	1000
2/5 horsepower	700	1400
3/5 horsepower	875	2350
Central Air Conditioner
10,000 BTU	1500	2200
20,000 BTU	2500	3300
24,000 BTU	3800	4950
32,000 BTU	5000	6500
40,000 BTU	6000	6700
HEATING/COOLING:		SUB-TOTAL:
KITCHEN:
Refrigerator, Average	600	2200
Dish Washer - Cool Dry	700	1400
Dish Washer - Hot Dry	1450	1400
Clothes Dryer - Gas	700	1800
Clothes Dryer - Electric	5750	1800
Microwave Oven, 750W	750	800
Washing Machine	750	2300
Coffee Maker	850	0
Toaster 2-slice	1100	0
Toaster 4-slice	1650	0
Electric Skillet	1500	0
Electric Range 6-in. element	1500	0
Electric Range 8-in. element	2100	0
Freezer	2500	2200
KITCHEN		SUB-TOTAL:
BATHROOM
Hair Dryer	800 - 1700	0
Iron	1200	0
BATHROOM		SUB-TOTAL:
APPLIANCES
Lights- Wattage	Actual:
VCR	50	0
Heating Pad	65	0
Radio	100	0
Television - Black & White	100	0
Television - Color	300	0
Dehumidifier	400	0
Electric Blanket	400	0
Garage Door Opener - 1/4HP	550	1100
Garage Door Opener - 1/3HP	725	1400
Well Pump - 1/3 hp	750	1400
Well Pump - 1/2 hp	1000	2100
Sump Pump - 1/3 hp	500-1200	1700
Sump Pump - 1/2 hp	1050	2150
Vacuum Cleaner - Standard	800	0
Vacuum Cleaner - Deluxe	1100	0
APPLIANCES		SUB-TOTAL:
COMMERCIAL PRODUCTS:
1/4" Drill	300	300
Jigsaw	300	300
Electric Weed Trimmer	500	500
Router	1000	1000
Belt Sander	1000	1000
Disc Sander	1200	1200
Chain Saw	1200	1200
Worm Drive Saw	1560	3100
12" Concrete Cutter	1800	3600
7 1/4" Circular Saw	1500	3000
Disc Grinder	2000	4000
Air Compressor, Average	2000	4000
COMMERCIAL PRODUCTS:		SUB-TOTAL:
		GRAND TOTAL

KDL · 03-02-2011, 09:37 PM

Just a few more safety related items to keep in mind: The power produced by a generator is just as dangerous as what comes in over the lines. Treat it accordingly. Secondly, most often when a generator needs to be put into use it's under less than ideal conditions, usually in the dark, rain, cold etc. It's best not to leave any part of the hook-up to memory or chance. That's how accidents happen. It really does need to be fool proof. Be safe.

SIKSUKR · 03-08-2011, 01:03 PM

Thousands Still Without Power After Storm
Ice Makes Restoring Power Difficult
POSTED: 8:01 am EST March 8, 2011
UPDATED: 12:22 pm EST March 8, 2011

CHARLESTOWN, N.H. -- Utility crews worked to restore power to thousands of people left in the dark after Monday's heavy rain and snow.

Slightly fewer than 5,000 customers were still without power by noon Tuesday. New Hampshire Electric Co-op said most should have power restored by later Tuesday.

Steve Di. · 03-28-2011, 07:40 AM

I installed a whole-house generator in my house in Massachusetts. My system produces 16,000 watts and is powered by natural gas; this setup can power my entire house indefinitely.

The generator has an automatic transfer switch which monitors the power that is being provided to the house. During a power failure, the system starts the generator and brings the power on line. It will also switch the house back to utility power when electricity is restored. It is worth not having to drag out a portable generator and fumble with power lines during a storm, only to find the generator to be out of fuel.

I believe a standby generator is even more critical in New Hampshire where a majority of the houses have wells for drinking water. The whole-house system with an automatic transfer switch is the best way to go.

tummyman · 03-28-2011, 09:17 AM

And remember that if the house has a septic system that pumps from the holding tank up to a leach field, no electricity means no septic pump. Once the tank is full without electricity, you are in a world of hurt. A gravity fed leach field avoids this issue.

Sue Doe-Nym · 03-28-2011, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tummyman

And remember that if the house has a septic system that pumps from the holding tank up to a leach field, no electricity means no septic pump. Once the tank is full without electricity, you are in a world of hurt. A gravity fed leach field avoids this issue.

Wouldn't you be in a world full of a lot more than hurt?

wifi · 03-28-2011, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Di.

I installed a whole-house generator in my house in Massachusetts. My system produces 16,000 watts and is powered by natural gas; this setup can power my entire house indefinitely.......

Now if we could only get an endless and uninterruptable supply of natural gas here in NH ...

beltrams · 03-28-2011, 08:35 PM

Indeed we don't want to kill linemen working to repair power lines.

I am not a lineman, but I am an electrical engineer (in a former occupation anyhow) and I know a few things about what power crews do to safe guard themselves. Most times, they don't even touch the high voltage conductors if they don't have to. Instead, they use all manner of insulated grab poles and tools to move wires. There are also procedures that call for a line to be grounded first, before a crew person has to put hands on it (gloves or not.)

With all the generators that have been installed, to say nothing of the alternate energy, solar and wind systems being installed with several different kinds of utility-interactive and stand alone inverters, the days in which the power company could assume that a dead line really was and is dead are gone.

This is NOT to say that power customers don't have the continued responsibility to make sure that their equipment doesn't back feed the grid by any means, however.

'Just saying, the power companies are keenly aware of how much power more and more homeowners are generating on their own along with the implications for what it means for line crews.

02-22-2011, 10:22 PM	#4
Lucky1 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Moultonborough and FL Posts: 459 Thanks: 318 Thanked 123 Times in 53 Posts	Don't lose the power often... In summer for a few hours now and then power can go out. Other than that I have not had any problem. I did purchase one of those large Durecell batteries that are supposedly for power and also for jumping car batteries etc. I guess the time for deciding how many problems you want is now, before you rush in and buy. I am not a big fan of places that lose power a lot and don't have cable etc. Winter places are best appreciated by me when they have a foundation instead of a crawl space etc. Never had a need for a generator so cannot offer my any experience with that. There is a woodstove on the lower level that has never been used. Guess that might have some heat if it was ever needed. The house is simple, but it is very very well insulated and seems to hold the heat well. When my daughter was 17 she put wood in the wood stove and forgot to open the damper? in the pipe going into the chimney. The house quickly filled with smoke and that was it for trying a wood stove for me. I guess if needed though, it might make a difference. Last edited by Lucky1; 02-23-2011 at 06:20 PM. Reason: added information about the wood stove

02-23-2011, 10:27 AM	#12
upthesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alton Bay Posts: 5,548 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 2,398 Thanked 1,918 Times in 1,061 Posts	Power is one thing... ...and a generator will give you that. The high speed internet connection can be interrupted by power outages, and perhaps you may want to look at one of those devices sold by Verizon, Sprint, etc. that allow you to connect via cell towers. Verizon has pay as you go and you can get coverage for a day, week, or month, with limitations on the amount of data that you can receive. May be another form of back up you want to look into. __________________ I Live Here... I am always UPTHESAUKEE !!!!

02-23-2011, 10:55 AM	#17
lawn psycho Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: On the move... Posts: 987 Thanks: 113 Thanked 248 Times in 133 Posts	OK folks, let's get the misinformation corrected from Rusty and Lakerider. I just snapped a quick image of one of my panels. Notice the upper right breaker and the steel plate just above it that also connects to the main "feed" breaker. That is an interlock. When power goes out, I open the main breaker, interlock goes up, and the 30A breaker connected to the generator cord gets closed. This gives the option of powering any circuit I want in the house of my chosing. You can't see in the picture but there are little white paint marks on the breakers I made so if I'm traveling I made it easier for my wife to not have to even think. Totally legal, totally to code. Very efficient. I have a lot of money connected to my panel including line filtering and surge protection. I did not want a permanent generator for several reasons least of which I didn't like where I was going to have to place it and needing a huge gas bottle (ugly). I just built my house 2 years ago and went though the decision process. This is precisely how a breaker panel in an existing home would be wired in (and the most economical) for a portable generator. Attached Images

02-23-2011, 12:51 PM	#29
chipj29 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bow Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 521 Thanked 308 Times in 162 Posts	Cate, I bought a 6500 Watt (8500 Watt startup) portable generator recently. The first time I used it was only with extension cords, with it running only a few things (fridge, TV, oil furnace). I recently had a transfer switch installed. It has 10 circuits, so I can power my well, furnace, TV, fridge, a bathroom and my bedroom. I have a couple other circuits as well, but would not run all 10 at once, not enough power. But to run only the essentials, my 6500W generator is plenty. The transfer switch is hard-wired to the main circuit panel. It is also hard-wired to an outlet/receptacle that is mounted to the outside of the house, which is what the generator plugs in to. When there is a power outage, I just wheel the generator outside, fire it up, and plug it in. Then on the transfer panel I select which circuits I want to power up with the generator. It is pretty simple, but it is all manual. The whole set-up, including the generator, transfer switch and installation of the transfer switch cost me about $1300. __________________ Getting ready for winter!

02-23-2011, 02:08 PM	#32
winni83 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Moultonborough, NH Posts: 423 Thanks: 17 Thanked 212 Times in 134 Posts	Gererators and Power Outage I just had an Interlock Kit http://www.interlockkit.com/index.htm installed by my electrician. It passed local code and is UL approved. See attached photo (not my set up). He also put in an outside connection box which feeds the generator into the circuit panel. It is designed so that you cannot turn on the breaker for the generator to power the panel unless the main breaker is off. Like others here, I had a portable generator that I used primarily during that big ice storm a few years ago and during another lengthy local power outage last year. I tired of running extension cords, dealing with getting power to the furnace, etc. I looked at both the traditional transfer switch with 6 to 10 circuits which must be chosen in advance and once chosen cannot be easily changed and the interlock kit. I went with the interlock kit because it supplies power to the entire circuit breaker panel. Obviously, you need to know how much you can power at once, but the interlock does give you the flexibility of, say, powering off most everything to run the microwave, oven, dryer or other high watt items if your generator can handle it. Now I am thinking of getting a bigger generator. Marking the essential circuits, the other circuits one might like and the circuits which should not be used unless most everything else is off (dryer, microwave, oven, etc.) makes it pretty easy. I run two refrigerators, two sump pumps, oil furnace and 5 or 6 lights all at once with no problem. A week after it was installed, we lost power for 5 hours and it was a breeze compared with the extension cord route. I turned on all circuits except the dryer and the stove and was careful not to turn on all the lights in the house. To answer the question about the 2008 ice storm, in the southern area of the state, people were without power for anywhere from 2 to 3 days to upwards of a week or more. In the lakes region, my house was without power only for 4 to 5 hours (thank god for Freeze Alarms!!). Go figure, but the ice was much worse in the southern and western parts of the state than further to the north. Attached Images

02-22-2011, 07:28 PM	#1
CateP Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wolfeboro Posts: 868 Thanks: 584 Thanked 540 Times in 210 Posts	Power Outage History Hello forum friends. We were wondering about the history of power outages in the area. I know there was a big ice storm in 2008 and people were out of power for 11 days, but I was wondering how the lakes region fared in that incident. How common are power outages and do most people have generators so they can keep things going (like water pumps)?

02-22-2011, 08:28 PM	#2
lawn psycho Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: On the move... Posts: 987 Thanks: 113 Thanked 248 Times in 133 Posts	Total crap shoot but I highly recommend a generator for your house. Do you see all those wires along side the road? One ice storm, heavy snow, heavy winds and you can be without power. You can get a portable generator and just have a cable that is run into the electrical panel that plugs directly into the generator. I would not be without one.

02-22-2011, 10:10 PM	#3
beaner Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Wolfeboro Posts: 178 Thanks: 17 Thanked 37 Times in 23 Posts	In general, it depends upon where you're located - the further out of town, the more likely you will lose power. The more people on your street, the more quickly it will be restored (more customers = higher priority). If you're in downtown Wolfeboro, for example, it will rarely go out, and when it does, it's almost always restored very quickly. That was true for even in the big ice storm several years ago. I figure that might be because they don't like to leave emergency services & downtown businesses running on generator backup for very long. Owning a home with underground utilities will also decrease the odds of power outages.

02-22-2011, 11:02 PM	#5
lawn psycho Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: On the move... Posts: 987 Thanks: 113 Thanked 248 Times in 133 Posts	Another way to approach this is to have the generator hook up ready to go. If you encounter a prolonged powere outage you can then buy a generator (assuming there still available at that time). The cable is about $75 for a 20-25 ft long cord that's good for 30A. An electrician should charge maybe $150 to install the cord into the panel. You then get to use the existing breakers in your panel as to what you want to power up. It's also a selling feature if you ever decide to sell the house. I'll take a picture of mine and post how it's set up. Cheap insurance IMO.

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02-23-2011, 08:51 AM	#7
ishoot308 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Gilford, NH / Welch Island Posts: 5,932 Thanks: 2,290 Thanked 4,943 Times in 1,918 Posts	Hi Cate; Having a generator backup is cheap insurance in my opinion and I wouldn't be without one. As an fyi, when I had my recent house hooked up with a generator (about 4 years ago) my electrician simply changed out the entire circuit panel to one that has a built in transfer switch. The cost was no higher than adding a separate "gentran" panel (transfer switch) and allows you to switch on and off any circuit in the house when running on your generator as opposed to being limited to what your gentran has for circuits (usually 6 or 8). Just last year I had the same thing done to my island camp on Winni. It worked out well as I had to increase my service panel anyway and a generator panel was no more money than a standard service panel. FWIW; Dan

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02-23-2011, 09:41 AM	#9
Lakesrider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,129 Thanks: 380 Thanked 1,016 Times in 345 Posts	I have a generator as well. Actually, I don't care where you live in New England you should have a generator. BTW, No licensed electrician is going to hook a cable to your breaker box. First off it is illegal, secondly a fire hazard. You need a switch box which is around $300.00. http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....m=shop+portals Then you need to have someone get the connection mounted to the house, usually done by the electrician as well. All of this is done to protect the line workers from getting zapped by your generator. I believe that there is a hefty fine if they find out you were the one to zap a worker. More so if he dies. You don't need a generator designed to run the town. A small one with enough power to run the fridge, furnace or propane stove, and a couple outlets. Like this if you want a portable generator.... http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....tor/p1843.html or like this if you want an permanent mounted generator.... http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....generators.php Mine is a portable gasoline style that last about 6-7 hours at 1/2 load. The bigger the gas tank and the longer the run time the better. Or you will need to refill more often, and at night that is a real pain in the frozen....ummm... behind. Remember, "most" Outages last only a few hours. You will also need a very good system to lock up a portable one, from being stolen. A nice Kryponite cable motorcycle lock does a nice job to thwart thieves. If your life depends on your computers you should invest in a computer compatible generator. And while you have an electrician at your house you should have a whole home surge protector installed. Costs a few bucks but is actually cheap insurance for your home. Most electricians will suggest these for you. And Cate I think you said you work from home so this especially important to protect your computers. My wife works from home quite often and uses company supplied computers so I had one installed for us. It protects everything in the home from surges or lightning strikes on the utility lines. Another investment I made is to get an APC power backup for my electronics. This is because my generator does not have a line cleaner on it. Get one like this one.... http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...0287&CatId=234 Doesn't have to be real expensive just one that says line conditioning on it. This is important for your big screen TVs and computers. In Moultonborough you can watch your lights flicker on a minute by minute basis. Go to the Village Kitchen, the Library, Gas stations and sit there and watch the lights at night. They get bright and then go dim. Dim, then even dimmer, etc. It is the lovely NH Coop power we pay so much for. Nothing like bad power to ruin your electronics. This can shorten the life of your LCD or LED screens by years. Sorry to ramble but I am a huge safety freak. I like to do most things myself. Electrical stuff is not one of them I always pay a professional for that stuff. So pay an electrician to install things properly. It could save your life.

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Rusty (02-23-2011), Skip (02-23-2011)

02-23-2011, 10:24 AM	#11
Sue Doe-Nym Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,372 Thanks: 710 Thanked 758 Times in 393 Posts	Part of your question deals with power outages, which depends to some extent on where you located. Several years ago NHEC embarked on an intense tree trimming program and it has paid dividends in terms of reducing outages. NHEC serves a number of towns in the Lakes Region but not all. However, basing a house buying decision on a specific electric utility is questionable. As you can see from the above comments, everyone has their own opinion, there is no right or wrong to this question. Do what makes sense for YOU and your own situation.

02-23-2011, 10:39 AM	#14
Lakesrider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,129 Thanks: 380 Thanked 1,016 Times in 345 Posts	Good question. Most of the big, permanent mounted style generators provide clean power. Clean sine wave pattern for computers. However if you are only using the generator on sparse occasions and have only a small portable type your APC or UPS backup should do a very good job at cleaning the power up from the generator. That is why they have a line conditioner in them. To protect your electronics from dirty, spikey voltage. Now the internet part is a whole 'nother issue. If you have and ice storm more than likely the internet is going to be disrupted as well. Not always but if a line breaks...your out. Kinda like the land based phone. remember the old school type that just plugged into the jack? Well you'll need one of those too, because if you have the wireless hand held style, those don't work when the power is out. We keep one of the old Slimline phones in a cabinet in the kitchen just for those times...

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upthesaukee (02-23-2011)

02-23-2011, 11:02 AM	#18
ishoot308 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Gilford, NH / Welch Island Posts: 5,932 Thanks: 2,290 Thanked 4,943 Times in 1,918 Posts	That is a circuit panel with a built in transfer switch. This is exactly what I have and in my opinion the best way to go over a separate gentran switch. I think Rusty and Lakesrider thought you were simply hard wiring your generator to your panel without a built in switch. Unfortunately many people do that and it's not a good thing. Dan

02-23-2011, 11:30 AM	#19
Seeker Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Effingham Posts: 408 Thanks: 37 Thanked 19 Times in 15 Posts	I highly recommend a standby generator for anywhere in this area. Also, I would not be without an automatic transfer switch. Suppose you are down in Mass when the power goes out for a few days and you can't get back here due to conditions? You do not have to power the entire house. I have only 6 circuits on my Generac. They power the water pump, 75% of my lights and wall outlets, refrig/freezer, TV/PC and one of my garages. In hindsight I wish I had added a couple more for my back garage but I hadn't built it at that time. The generator cycles every Sunday afternoon for 15 minutes or so.

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02-23-2011, 11:50 AM	#23
Lakesrider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,129 Thanks: 380 Thanked 1,016 Times in 345 Posts	OK so getting back to it...Cate....just make sure you get it professionally installed. This way if there were ever an issue you'll be covered on your home insurance. BTW...I love the fact that we agree to disagree here. . I just want her to get it done safely and correctly that is all.

02-23-2011, 12:10 PM	#25
Lakesrider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,129 Thanks: 380 Thanked 1,016 Times in 345 Posts	Oky Doky...I just talked to a local generator company. They say it is legal to have the interlock such as the one in the picture. However they only install #10 hard wire inside the box and wire through the sill to a the female outlet with the twist lock plug going to the generator. If you want a switch it is primarily for the convenience that I mentioned. So there are two sets of ideas going, which is why I suggest a professional install it and she is covered. So I'll eat half a crow on this one and call it a day!

02-23-2011, 12:14 PM	#27
Lakesrider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,129 Thanks: 380 Thanked 1,016 Times in 345 Posts	Hey I am all about learning stuff and I learned stuff today. It's a good day! Let's all have a beer for lunch!

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Rusty (02-23-2011)

02-23-2011, 01:19 PM	#30
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I hate to go against the flow here but I would wait to decide on a generator. If you buy in a city, near the center of town, in a heavily populated area or near a main road then a generator is really not needed. Sure you will lose power a few times a year for an hour or less. I'm sure that happens where you live now. Do you have generator now? Now if you live away from sturdy infrastructure, then buy a generator. It's an expensive initial outlay and carries a maintenance cost. Unless you spend a fortune it will only provide emergency services. You have to make sure you have fresh and adequate fuel for it. I would wait until you pick the house, if everyone around you has a generator then you probably need one. Otherwise, I would save my money. When the power goes out, jump in the car and drive to nice hotel, they're all empty in the winter.

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02-23-2011, 02:38 PM	#34
camp guy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: formerly Winter Harbor, still Wolfeboro Posts: 1,135 Thanks: 284 Thanked 480 Times in 271 Posts	Power outage history In 2008 there were pockets of outage which may have lasted as long as 11 days, but this is very unusual. As someone said, PSNH has upgraded its tree trimming program, and so have many of the towns. Besides all the discussion of how to wire it up, what is/is not Code, and who is giving the best advice, might I offer this nugget: If you end up living outside your Town's public water distribution system (which is very probable in rural NH and the Lakes Region) you will be getting your water from a well, and you need to realize that when there is a power outage you will be without water which translates to no toilet (!) (unless you have some containers set aside just for this circumstance). This, alone, may help you decide if you want a generator. If you end up building a new home, certainly have it wired to be totally generator compatible, whether you install a generator at that time or not. If, down the road, you want to add the generator, it will be significantly easier to do, and, even in a totally generator compatible initial wiring job, you can still control how much you actually use with your breakers. You raised a great question, Cate, and clearly one that got a lot of attention. The question of a generator is certainly one which needs careful study, and the installation may vary from town to town, but never, never, take the cheap road, it just isn't worth it.

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trfour (02-23-2011)

02-23-2011, 03:23 PM	#36
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	I'll chime in here. First off, I won't be without a generator again. I have had a couple outages that lasted multiple days and when your house is about to totally freeze up that's not a fun thing to deal with. I have a couple portable 6000 watt units but only to use another one for others. I am the bad guy that hooked his up to a spare double pole breaker to power the whole panel. I do like the interlock setup that I see here though. I don't bother switching breakers on or off, I just power up everything. My brain is the switch. I run anything that is needed like my well pump, fridge, furnace, any lights and certainly my tv. Just can't run hi power users like oven and dryer. One burner on my stove is even fine. If it were me I would at least get a portable for convienence sake. Its nice to have the outside lights on watching tv while the neighbors are sitting with candles. __________________ SIKSUKR

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02-23-2011, 04:05 PM	#37
donnamatrix Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro Posts: 833 Thanks: 24 Thanked 258 Times in 120 Posts	Get the Generator Wow. so much information. We live in Moultonboro - in Suissevale. My husband is self employed and works from home. In 2007, at the time of the VA Tech shootings, our power was out for several days. But, it's okay because we have a portable generator. We had Emerson Electric install the switch panel and all the other goodies. It runs everything in the office, the fridge, lights, etc. I run a single extension cord to keep the small freezer in teh basement running. I would not ever be without a generator living in our part of Moultonboro- there are many instances where we've lost power, this is just one story. All in all the generator was about $1,000 and the installation was about $1,000 and well worth it.

02-23-2011, 04:12 PM	#38
codeman671 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,360 Thanks: 210 Thanked 764 Times in 448 Posts	We installed a 15kw GE permanent backup system with a whole house transfer switch and a dedicated 320 gallon propane tank. We can go for a long time without power. With a new baby in the house and my company relocating from a 5 minute to a 30 minute commute, I did not want to have to rush home if the power went out to keep my wife happy. This system fires up within 10 seconds of the power going out and I am fully operational within 25 seconds of initial loss. I can run an entire 4300sqft home including the hot tub with it. The only problem I have ever noticed is startup load. In the summer, if the power goes out the generator will kick out if trying to start all 3 AC condensers and the hot tub at once. That is a huge load. It will run them all as long as they are not turned on at the same time. I also have a 5kw portable that will actually run more than one would think. A few years ago we tied it in and ran the entire house except for the dryer and oven. It was done in a pinch but it got us through. We tied into the box outside for the hot tub and shut off the main as not to backfeed the lines. Certainly not code (or recommended) but probably a lot safer than some of the nightmares I have seen other people do when desperate. The moral of the story is have it done professionally and make sure whatever you do, you size it properly.

02-23-2011, 05:08 PM	#39
winni83 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Moultonborough, NH Posts: 423 Thanks: 17 Thanked 212 Times in 134 Posts	Fuel Issue One issue to keep in mind with the gasoline powered generators is that they need GAS. I keep about 4 five gallon containers on hand, treated with the blue stuff, and try to use them up each year, or put into the car. With extensive outages, finding a gas station that can pump gas can be a problem. During the ice storm in 2008 my son in law in the western part of the state had to drive 15 miles to get gas -- and there were lines of cars. If I were building from scratch I would go the propane powered whole house route. Also, having a gas stove, gas dryer and gas hot water heater, or hot water off the furnace will reduce your load needs considerably.

02-23-2011, 06:40 PM	#40
wifi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Lakes Region Posts: 1,321 Thanks: 282 Thanked 287 Times in 169 Posts	I agree with propane fuel, I have 4 different size gennies standing by, but if you have an oil furnace, you might consider a diesel with some expanded storage..