New bathhouse at Gilford Beach

[Seaplane Pilot]

Gilford wants to spend $1mm on a new 1792 square foot bathhouse at Gilford Beach. I can't wait to see the gold-plated fixtures, oriental rugs and platinum urinals, toilets & bidets gracing this palace...

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...ntent=headline

[John Mercier]

Just over $500 per square foot for a public building... shouldn't be too ritzy.

Everything has to be commercial grade and ADA compliant.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Just over $500 per square foot for a public building... shouldn't be too ritzy.

Everything has to be commercial grade and ADA compliant.

I think your reference to building codes is sort of making a related point to Seaplane's. It's a bathhouse at the beach. A big shed with some plywood walls, a cement floor, picnic table benches, and a few toilets should be sufficient.

[thebix]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I think your reference to building codes is sort of making a related point to Seaplane's. It's a bathhouse at the beach. A big shed with some plywood walls, a cement floor, picnic table benches, and a few toilets should be sufficient.

From the LDS article:
The building houses a concessions area, bathrooms, and storage used by lifeguards.

Food service is another standard that looks far different today than it did 50 years ago. The concessions area is so out of compliance, Greene said, that it won’t be able to get a license to serve food this year. Bringing it up to code would require the installation of a three-bay sink and modern appliances, for which there just isn’t space in the current building.

[Jeanzb1]

One million bucks for a small 1,792 sf building that will be used
only 3 1/2 months a year sounds absurd! The land is already owned land by the town, it needs only a couple of toilets, a minimal kitchen, just a slab base, and it doesn’t need heat. Even a figure close to one million dollars is outrageous!!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Descant]

Rent the space to a food truck. All revenue, no upfront expense. Use the old building for lifeguards storage and picnic shelter. Picnic shelters are the same now as they were in 1900. Same applies to toilets, except now they are low-flow.

[jeffk]

I guess it's up to the Gilford voters to decide what kind of facility they want for their beach. They get to use it and they pay for it. Sounds about right to me.

Understanding that the building houses a commercial kitchen made the cost more understandable to me. We are upgrading to a new, code required, ventilation/fire suppression system for the stoves at our church and it is costing over $6 grand. Everything in a public commercial kitchen is VERY pricey.

[codeman671]

The cost of materials is crazy these days. One would be surprised… I certainly am, we are wrapping up a large reno on our home and I am at least double what I expected. I thought I had a pretty good handle on it, but not even close. It needed more work than I thought and ended up being a full gut. Even the little things, yesterdays challenge was soffit material. Material alone using Boral was $10k plus painting. To go Versatex, $18k. And the number of rolls of black coil metal for trim and fascia? Holy crap….

[John Mercier]

Just be happy you didn't need to meet ADA or commercial specification to get insurance.

Wall hanging toilets and sinks with automated flushing and faucets is no joke.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Just be happy you didn't need to meet ADA or commercial specification to get insurance.

Wall hanging toilets and sinks with automated flushing and faucets is no joke.

Curious why they wouldn’t have to meet ADA requirements. It is a public area.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[John Mercier]

Codeman's house is residential.
He can let the public use his bathroom...
But it wouldn't need to meet the ADA requirements unless he requested it.

[ishoot308]

As a Gilford resident, I’m all for it! The Gilford town beach gets quite a bit of use and having nice bathroom facilities to keep the area clean only makes sense. The town has done a great job of keeping the Glendale ramp and facilities in great shape for the residents, It only makes sense that the town beach gets the same care and upkeep!

Proud to be a Gilford resident!

Dan

[codeman671]

As a Gilford resident I am for it as well.
Our taxes are cheap here (compared to Dover!) and it’s good to see them investing in what the people want, not just what the officials want. The new jet ski ramp at Glendale was badly needed and looks great.

[Winni P]

"In the decades since, construction standards have changed, making it difficult to keep the building maintained, Greene said. The building houses a concessions area, bathrooms, and storage used by lifeguards.

“Over the last couple of years, we’ve had lots of repair issues,” Greene said. Most problematic have been issues related to plumbing, as the building’s pipes are not up to modern code, and contractors are reluctant to make spot repairs without replacing all of the building’s plumbing."

As a Gilford taxpayer, I am all for bringing the building up to modern code - especially the plumbing!

[Seaplane Pilot]

I have no problem with a new, updated bathhouse. But a million bucks? Come on now. And you know there will be cost overruns, so what will the final cost really be?

The other problem I have is that I own several commercial properties in Gilford and pay a huge amount in taxes to the town. However, commercial property owners are not entitled to use the Gilford Beach or the Glendale launch ramp, so what’s the benefit to me and the hundreds of other commercial property owners in Gilford that contribute to these projects?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

The other problem I have is that I own several commercial properties in Gilford and pay a huge amount in taxes to the town. However, commercial property owners are not entitled to use the Gilford Beach or the Glendale launch ramp, so what’s the benefit to me and the hundreds of other commercial property owners in Gilford that contribute to these projects?

Commercial and residential taxpayers each subsidize things that disproportionately benefit the other, but this is an interesting point--are you saying that they will not let you on the beach for personal recreational use (as opposed to commercial use)? That sounds kind of mean-spirited.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Commercial and residential taxpayers each subsidize things that disproportionately benefit the other, but this is an interesting point--are you saying that they will not let you on the beach for personal recreational use (as opposed to commercial use)? That sounds kind of mean-spirited.

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. Commercial property owners / taxpayers should be given a sticker that allows just the property owner (not their tenants or employees) to use the beach and launch ramp for recreational purposes (not commercial purposes). But this is not the case.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

I have no problem with a new, updated bathhouse. But a million bucks? Come on now. And you know there will be cost overruns, so what will the final cost really be?

The other problem I have is that I own several commercial properties in Gilford and pay a huge amount in taxes to the town. However, commercial property owners are not entitled to use the Gilford Beach or the Glendale launch ramp, so what’s the benefit to me and the hundreds of other commercial property owners in Gilford that contribute to these projects?

Commercial property anywhere is considered a ''transaction''.
Because I own stock in several national retailers, among other things, I am technically an owner of property in several, if not all jurisdictions... both here and overseas. But I am not embedded in the welfare of that jurisdiction beyond the commercial value they represent.

And I think in the trespass thread that Codeman started about his island property, I put forth the concept that a modern bathhouse would cost a lot more than people not in the industry realized.

Gilford will not be the only one rebuilding, or building, new bathhouses to protect the lakes.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

I have no problem with a new, updated bathhouse. But a million bucks? Come on now. And you know there will be cost overruns, so what will the final cost really be?

The other problem I have is that I own several commercial properties in Gilford and pay a huge amount in taxes to the town. However, commercial property owners are not entitled to use the Gilford Beach or the Glendale launch ramp, so what’s the benefit to me and the hundreds of other commercial property owners in Gilford that contribute to these projects?

People who own Gilford waterfront homes have little or no use for the beach and pay a lot of taxes too.

For 20 plus years I owned a slip at Mountain View Yacht Club, paid taxes to the town, and my understanding was that we could not use the Gilford beach or the recycle center. I was never offered or issued a town sticker.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

People who own Gilford waterfront homes have little or no use for the beach and pay a lot of taxes too.

Quite correct! I am in the same boat and have only used the town beach in the winter to access the lake / ice.

I am also under the realization that not everyone in town can afford waterfront homes yet should be able to comfortably access and use the waterfront resource we share as Gilford residents. That is why I am all for the renovations. This resource should be limited to town residents and not out of town entities or investors. The “residents” of the town are the rightful users of this resource.

Dan

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Quite correct! I am in the same boat and have only used the town beach in the winter to access the lake / ice.

I am also under the realization that not everyone in town can afford waterfront homes yet should be able to comfortably access and use the waterfront resource we share as Gilford residents. That is why I am all for the renovations. This resource should be limited to town residents and not out of town entities or investors. The “residents” of the town are the rightful users of this resource.

Dan

Dan, just a note that maybe you want to confirm as a Gilford resident: if any federal (and maybe state) money is taken, the resource has to be open to the public.

We dealt with this in my town a few years back when out-of-towners were coming to our town's beach and destroying it. Since federal moneys had been taken, we were unable to shut it down and had to come up with a workaround to...reduce its attraction.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Dan, just a note that maybe you want to confirm as a Gilford resident: if any federal (and maybe state) money is taken, the resource has to be open to the public.

We dealt with this in my town a few years back when out-of-towners were coming to our town's beach and destroying it. Since federal moneys had been taken, we were unable to shut it down and had to come up with a workaround to...reduce its attraction.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

Think,

I am not certain but doubt any federal or state money would be involved in this project. I believe funds would strictly come from the towns tax base…can’t say that for certain though…

Dan

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Dan, just a note that maybe you want to confirm as a Gilford resident: if any federal (and maybe state) money is taken, the resource has to be open to the public.

We dealt with this in my town a few years back when out-of-towners were coming to our town's beach and destroying it. Since federal moneys had been taken, we were unable to shut it down and had to come up with a workaround to...reduce its attraction.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

That is correct. Laconia accepts federal funds to maintain Weirs Beach. That is why the beach is open to the public. Because of the amount of garbage left by the people who use it, the city council opt to close the beach to the public. The city attorney bought this up.

Gilford may not use state and federal funds to upgrade/maintain the beach.

[fatlazyless]

Gilford Town Beach; visiting with pets in the off-season, like today, January 11 is not doable because there's no place to park your car, the gate is closed, you'll get a parking ticket, and your car will be towed away. This applies to Gilford residents with parking stickers, too.

Unless you walk or ride a bicycle to get to Gilford Town Beach, or park it at Fay's Boat Yard it is essentially closed to visitors in the off-season who want to walk along their 1100' sandy beach and take in the winter views.

Ellacoya State Park: Pets are prohibited seasonally from May 1 to October 31 but are welcome on a six foot leash from November 1 to April 30.

https://www.nhstateparks.org/plannin...friendly-parks

Parking during the off-season is allowed by parking off the paved road, on the gravel shoulder area, outside the closed gate. Do not block the entry gate.

There is an iron ranger deposit box should you want to drop cash to NH State Parks in the off-season. NH State Parks are supposedly 100% funded by user fees with no funding ... R ... from the NH annual budget.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Gilford Town Beach; visiting with pets in the off-season, like today, January 11 is not doable because there's no place to park your car, the gate is closed, you'll get a parking ticket, and your car will be towed away. This applies to Gilford residents with parking stickers, too.

Unless you walk or ride a bicycle to get to Gilford Town Beach, or park it at Fay's Boat Yard it is essentially closed to visitors in the off-season who want to walk along their 1100' sandy beach and take in the winter views.

Not true! The gate gets opened when the ice is considered safe for lake access to fishermen, snowmobiles, skaters, Ice kites and any other outdoor form of recreation. There is plenty of parking...

Dan

[The Real BigGuy]

It would seem to me that it should operate similar to the way most local transfer stations operate:

A residential tax payer should be able to acquire a yearly “beach sticker” to for a vehicle at a nominal cost ($5 or $10/sticker) with a household limit of 2 stickers;

A a non-resident hospitality business (hotel, motel, B&B taxpayer should also be able to acquire up to 2 passes (so they can be temporarily distributed among employees at the owner/managers discretion) at a more substantial cost ($25-50/sticker);

Residential hospitality business can acquire up to the 8 passes previously mentioned but at a cost of $100 per pass. (I believe the price is justified because the business will be able to make a profit by selling use of the pass)

The town could also sell stickers to non residents for a yearly fee and make it substantial if they want to “keep outsiders out”.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

It would seem to me that it should operate similar to the way most local transfer stations operate:

A residential tax payer should be able to acquire a yearly “beach sticker” to for a vehicle at a nominal cost ($5 or $10/sticker) with a household limit of 2 stickers;

A a non-resident hospitality business (hotel, motel, B&B taxpayer should also be able to acquire up to 2 passes (so they can be temporarily distributed among employees at the owner/managers discretion) at a more substantial cost ($25-50/sticker);

Residential hospitality business can acquire up to the 8 passes previously mentioned but at a cost of $100 per pass. (I believe the price is justified because the business will be able to make a profit by selling use of the pass)

The town could also sell stickers to non residents for a yearly fee and make it substantial if they want to “keep outsiders out”.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

The transfer station expects you to go in, drop off, and leave... not park all day.

The town/city beaches only have so much parking area... and in Gilford's case has 7000+ potential resident users. When you add even more to that, the risk that someone gets turned away increases... especially on high use days.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The transfer station expects you to go in, drop off, and leave... not park all day.

The town/city beaches only have so much parking area... and in Gilford's case has 7000+ potential resident users. When you add even more to that, the risk that someone gets turned away increases... especially on high use days.

But with 7000+ residents the potential to be turned away is already high.

If they are not going to allow all taxpayers the opportunity to use the beach then the only fair way to do it is to require tax paying residents who want to use the beach to buy stickers, priced high enough to bear all costs (both fixed and variable) so that other taxpayers (non-resident & business) do not bear any of the costs.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[root1]

F.W.I.W ....
How about installing a precast concrete bathroom facility. Costs about the same as a (really) nice car, vandal proof, and meets all current building/ADA codes. We've installed them in our parks with much success. Some models are very posh, too.

This doesn't resolve the situation for 'non-residents'. But, to temporarily circumvent the sticker restriction, is it possible to visit the Gilford clerk's office to change your primary residence to Gilford (maybe for a week or two), obtain the sticker, and then change your residence back? I don't think it costs anything to change your residence.

[John Mercier]

That seems a bit small as compared tot he current unit... and no concession stand that is used to help offset the cost of daily maintenance/housekeeping.

Since they already allow deeded taxpayers... the other point would be moot.
Other than that... the clerk would work off a change of license and registration of vehicles.

[Descant]

In early posts, it was noted by town officials that the current food prep area won't pass inspection. It was also stated that the new building, if authorized by Town Meeting would not be operational until an uncertain date in 2024.
There hasn't been much discussion about interim plans for this year and possibly 2024. (Food trucks? A food truck has no overhead for the town, hiring employees that are in short supply, etc).
Also, not much discussion about operating costs.
Financing alternatives haven't had much discussion either. If this has been in the CIP for a few years, why hasn't a Capital Reserve Fund been established for this project? Locally, we've used CRF for many years to keep the tax rate stable, and plan for future needs, from ambulance to salt shed and Milfoil control. Another alternative: the BOS has the authority to enter into leases and you can do a lease/buy for 5 years, putting funds into the budget which requires a majority vote instead of the super majority needed for a bond.

[John Mercier]

A doubt a food truck would be willing to sit there all day... pay a lease to the town... or clean the bathrooms.

The concession stand has worked for 50 years. I doubt they will change.

They could bond rather than CRF... and it probably wasn't even on the radar until recently.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

A doubt a food truck would be willing to sit there all day... pay a lease to the town... or clean the bathrooms.

The concession stand has worked for 50 years. I doubt they will change.

They could bond rather than CRF... and it probably wasn't even on the radar until recently.

The point is/was, they have indicated they can't use the existing kitchen, so they will need some sort of alternative. A lease or license fee does not have to be prohibitive. The hot dog carts in Wolfeboro and Center Harbor seem to do just fine.
The point of the alternative financing was 50% vote instead of 67%. If it has been in the Capital Improvement Plan, it is not likely relatively new. Those are defined as 6 year plans, approved in the fall prior to developing a town budget in most cases. The CIP includes town school, sometimes a village district so that major projects can be planned in a way that they don't all hit the tax rate at the same time.

P & R Director Greene, quoted in the LDS in an earlier post:
“It’s probably more fiscally responsible to construct a new facility,” Greene said, noting that the building has been on the town’s capital improvement plan for a few years."

What happened at the hearting on January 11 ?

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Descant

The point is/was, they have indicated they can't use the existing kitchen, so they will need some sort of alternative. A lease or license fee does not have to be prohibitive. The hot dog carts in Wolfeboro and Center Harbor seem to do just fine.
The point of the alternative financing was 50% vote instead of 67%. If it has been in the Capital Improvement Plan, it is not likely relatively new. Those are defined as 6 year plans, approved in the fall prior to developing a town budget in most cases. The CIP includes town school, sometimes a village district so that major projects can be planned in a way that they don't all hit the tax rate at the same time.

P & R Director Greene, quoted in the LDS in an earlier post:
“It’s probably more fiscally responsible to construct a new facility,” Greene said, noting that the building has been on the town’s capital improvement plan for a few years."

What happened at the hearting on January 11 ?

You missed the point that the owner of the food truck/hot dog cart, is not going to want to clean and restock the bathroom.

I would bet that getting 67% of the vote will not really be that hard once the details are worked out. Doing a smaller sum at 50% vote every budget cycle would have been easier... but that is really no longer an option.

If the toilets fail; the beach would need to be shutdown. If they go without the revenue part of the building, they will still need to focus some resources on the beach/bath house.

They just aren't likely to change a format that they have used for 50 years because the building needs a rehab.

[TiltonBB]

The warrant article has been pulled.

After hearing the price, residents and selectboard members expressed a desire to analyze the construction estimate for accuracy, and if it proves to be that costly to replace the building, to look at design alternatives that wouldn’t carry such a high price.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...8e2172a34.html

[FlyingScot]

Looks like a great discussion and a good process for figuring out what's best

[John Mercier]

They could make it smaller.

It wouldn't change the demolition and debris removal costs, or the shoreline permitting... but the $200/square foot, for what is basically a one story garage, would be against a smaller footprint bringing that line time down.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by root1

This doesn't resolve the situation for 'non-residents'. But, to temporarily circumvent the sticker restriction, is it possible to visit the Gilford clerk's office to change your primary residence to Gilford (maybe for a week or two), obtain the sticker, and then change your residence back? I don't think it costs anything to change your residence.

For Gilford homeowners, your Gilford home does not need to be your primary residence to qualify for a town sticker. You can get your sticker at town hall and they actually ask if you want a sticker when you register your car. There would be no need to change anything. The Gilford Clerk's office is very well run and everyone transacting any business there is treated with a lot of respect. That has not always been the case in other town halls I have been in.

[steve-on-mark]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

For Gilford homeowners, your Gilford home does not need to be your primary residence to qualify for a town sticker. You can get your sticker at town hall and they actually ask if you want a sticker when you register your car. There would be no need to change anything. The Gilford Clerk's office is very well run and everyone transacting any business there is treated with a lot of respect. That has not always been the case in other town halls I have been in.

The ladies at Gilford Town Hall are awesome! We live on Mark for 7 or 8 months out of the year, but our " primary" residence is in Epping. Gilford stickers are always sent to me in a timely fashion when requested...they even write " have a great summer" when they send them!

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by steve-on-mark

The ladies at Gilford Town Hall are awesome! We live in Mark for 7 or 8 months out of the year, but our " primary" residence is in Epping. Gilford stickers are always sent to me in a timely fashion when requested...they even write " have a great summer" when they send them!

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

Couldn’t agree more Steve! The “Gilford Gals” are awesome! Always helpful and kind!

Dan

[Descant]

Dan and others are absolutely correct. The Gilford Town Clerk's office--everybody--is/are always helpful and way ahead of the game.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by steve-on-mark

The ladies at Gilford Town Hall are awesome! We live in Mark for 7 or 8 months out of the year, but our " primary" residence is in Epping. Gilford stickers are always sent to me in a timely fashion when requested...they even write " have a great summer" when they send them!

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

I understand the notes they put in the renewal envelope. I got "Merry Christmas" on one of mine but I may have rushed the boating season a little!

[steve-on-mark]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

I understand the notes they put in the renewal envelope. I got "Merry Christmas" on one of mine but I may have rushed the boating season a little!

Stop rubbing it in with the snow bird pics, damn it! Although, 55 degrees felt pretty good today!!

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

I understand the notes they put in the renewal envelope. I got "Merry Christmas" on one of mine but I may have rushed the boating season a little!

That’s so unfair!!

Dan

[fatlazyless]

Here's my recommendation on two very different local New Hampshire food trucks if the Gilford Town Beach wants to go with a food truck.

This Next Level ..... www.waterville.com/next-level-food-truck ..... actually has a gross vehicle weight above 12-tons, so it needs a cdl-driver to drive it and has enough torque to trailer an M1-Abrams tank. Is unknown if the driver is also a gourmet chef as well?

And, here's the big red yummy pizza van ...... www.youtube.com/watch/watch?v=TtarWUiUN34 ...... Tartaglia's Pizza food truck from Exit 28-Campton ..... which is all about the food.