Frozen pipes

[Sue Doe-Nym]

This one is for you brainiacs who know all there is about closing a house for the winter months: Assuming that you have done almost everything possible to prevent a disaster in freezing weather, including draining the pipes, etc….if the house is on a slab, which makes emptying the hot water heater completely almost impossible,
my husband claims that the water heater would still contain some water. If that is so, and it’s a 50 gallon tank and there’s 10 to 20 gallons left in the tank, if there should be a freeze (power failure plus generator failure), wouldn’t the water, as it begins to freeze, merely expand to fill the available space in the tank and not result in a disaster?
This has been driving me nuts!
TIA for any useful advice.

Sue

[WinnisquamZ]

Can’t believe it would hold as much as you believe. The bottom drain valve should be lower enough to drain it completely


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

This one is for you brainiacs who know all there is about closing a house for the winter months: Assuming that you have done almost everything possible to prevent a disaster in freezing weather, including draining the pipes, etc….if the house is on a slab, which makes emptying the hot water heater completely almost impossible,
my husband claims that the water heater would still contain some water. If that is so, and it’s a 50 gallon tank and there’s 10 to 20 gallons left in the tank, if there should be a freeze (power failure plus generator failure), wouldn’t the water, as it begins to freeze, merely expand to fill the available space in the tank and not result in a disaster?
This has been driving me nuts!
TIA for any useful advice.

Sue

Hire a plumber to take care of the pipes and the water heater. You can have him come back year after year, or you can pay him to set up, then show you how to do the job yourself.

Personally I don't like leaving houses without temperature control for extended periods. Especially if it has sheet rock walls. Things just seem to deteriorate quickly.

[LIforrelaxin]

Even on a slab if you drain the hot water heater, it will be almost empty.... the residue water inside will be minimal.... unless you have to run the hose you attach to the drain up hill to get into a tub or sink or something.... if this is the case you can by a small pump that will help you with the draining process...

I simplely hook up a hose, and drain mine which sits inside my attached shed.... I don't tip it or do anything funny....

I do leave the drain open so anything residual can drip out.......

I have been doing this for lets see ummmm over 30+ years.... and am currently on the second water heater in that time span.... the failure of the original hot water heater, was some idiot forgetting to turn the power off as he drained it... and the element burnt out..... I figured at 20 years, I would bother rebuilding the dam thing, and just go a entirely new one.....

Not sure where you are on the lake, but feel free to reach out through a PM....

[bobkatfly]

When I lived in Wolfeboro the house was on a slab. Same situation as you. We winterized every year by draining the tank through its drain valve and then pressurizing the system with a compressor through an outdoor spigot (with all the faucets open of course). Never had an issue.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by bobkatfly

When I lived in Wolfeboro the house was on a slab. Same situation as you. We winterized every year by draining the tank through its drain valve and then pressurizing the system with a compressor through an outdoor spigot (with all the faucets open of course). Never had an issue.

I have a seasonal cabin behind my house and it is fed from the house. When it was put in there was too much ledge so the water line to the cabin is only about 1 foot under the ground.

At the house, I connect compressor to the line that feeds the cabin and blow out everything, including the hot water heater. I close the faucets and then shut down the compressor. Every year when I start it up in the spring there is still air pressure in the lines. The first time that happened it was a surprise to me.

[bobkatfly]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

I have a seasonal cabin behind my house and it is fed from the house. When it was put in there was too much ledge so the water line to the cabin is only about 1 foot under the ground.

At the house, I connect compressor to the line that feeds the cabin and blow out everything, including the hot water heater. I close the faucets and then shut down the compressor. Every year when I start it up in the spring there is still air pressure in the lines. The first time that happened it was a surprise to me.

Do you close the faucets under pressure on purpose?

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

This one is for you brainiacs who know all there is about closing a house for the winter months: Assuming that you have done almost everything possible to prevent a disaster in freezing weather, including draining the pipes, etc….if the house is on a slab, which makes emptying the hot water heater completely almost impossible,
my husband claims that the water heater would still contain some water. If that is so, and it’s a 50 gallon tank and there’s 10 to 20 gallons left in the tank, if there should be a freeze (power failure plus generator failure), wouldn’t the water, as it begins to freeze, merely expand to fill the available space in the tank and not result in a disaster?
This has been driving me nuts!
TIA for any useful advice.

Sue

If it has that much water left in the tank it will be on the bottom. When it freezes it won't freeze upwards, it will freeze outwards, drain the tank completely!
You can buy a small pump that hooks up to garden hoses to suck out all the water without making a mess. I think they should have them at Harbor Freight.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Thank you all for the many suggestions…..a great help. We’ll have to see which ones make the most sense for our situation.

[Descant]

I used to do all the winterizing myself. Never had issues. Attach a hose. Open the valve at the bottom of the tank and walk away. Close the valve in the spring after running some water through to flush whatever had settled in the tank. Now, I hire somebody. I like the convenience of just locking the door and leaving. I get an email in the spring saying everything works and the house is cozy. Same guy watches so there are no surprise trees that came down and fell into the living room. Anybody who goes away should have a "guy".

[bigdog]

I will be away from house this winter, and have a 'a guy' check house from time to time.

Question.....
Do I really need to drain hot water heater, I haven't int the past and everything has been fine. HW heater is in basement.

FYI, I leave my heat on at 52 degrees, and have a temperature sensor alarm, which lets me know if house temp drops below 50 degrees.

Thoughts ?

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by bobkatfly

Do you close the faucets under pressure on purpose?

Yes, and I could be wrong to do that. In the spring as soon as I open the faucets the rush of air tells me that there have been no underground leaks. I am concerned that once I turn the water on I would not notice a very small underground water leak.

Also, my thought is that the pressure may add some strength and a little protection to the line.

My ideas, and I could be wrong to do it this way.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by bigdog

I will be away from house this winter, and have a 'a guy' check house from time to time.

Question.....
Do I really need to drain hot water heater, I haven't int the past and everything has been fine. HW heater is in basement.

FYI, I leave my heat on at 52 degrees, and have a temperature sensor alarm, which lets me know if house temp drops below 50 degrees.

Thoughts ?

No reason to drain it if the heat is on.

[bobkatfly]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Yes, and I could be wrong to do that. In the spring as soon as I open the faucets the rush of air tells me that there have been no underground leaks. I am concerned that once I turn the water on I would not notice a very small underground water leak.

Also, my thought is that the pressure may add some strength and a little protection to the line.

My ideas, and I could be wrong to do it this way.

As long as the air pressure is low enough it shouldn't be an issue. Only thing I can think of is if a small air leak develops it could erode a seal enough to leak when water is applied. Gas leaks easier than liquids. I'm probably overthinking this though. Can't lose my engineers thought process

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by bigdog

I will be away from house this winter, and have a 'a guy' check house from time to time.

Question.....
Do I really need to drain hot water heater, I haven't int the past and everything has been fine. HW heater is in basement.

FYI, I leave my heat on at 52 degrees, and have a temperature sensor alarm, which lets me know if house temp drops below 50 degrees.

Thoughts ?

With the scenario you are describing I wouldn't worry to much..... I would suggest just leaving the water heater on..... it will be minimal cost and will be an additional heat source, along with your furnace to help maintain your 50 degree minimum...

The other piece of advice, would be to leave cabinet doors under sinks open... to help keep those spaces heated....

with that said why 50 degrees, why not 55, just to give yourself more cushion....

[Sue Doe-Nym]

We set the thermostat at 50 for the furnace, 45 for electric heat backup, and flip the circuit breakers for water pump and hot water heater. We should be fine, but I am a neurotic case re frozen pipes because we had a mess on our hands a few years back. An electrician we had did some rewiring and mislabeled the water pump! The result was catastrophic.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

We set the thermostat at 50 for the furnace, 45 for electric heat backup, and flip the circuit breakers for water pump and hot water heater. We should be fine, but I am a neurotic case re frozen pipes because we had a mess on our hands a few years back. An electrician we had did some rewiring and mislabeled the water pump! The result was catastrophic.

I don't think your being Neurotic, what you ask is a very good question.... things can get expensive fast if something happens.

And hey sometimes even when you do it right, things still happen....
You know those little sprayer with Kitchen sinks.... never thought or had a problem for 20 years with them.... But lately the sprayer keeps getting s split, because of a drop or two of residual water... .... this year I will just take the stupid thing apart.....

[randalnh]

Can't be too neurotic about having pipes freeze while you are away from the house. Water leaks lead to structural damage and mold/mildew issues if not dealt with immediately. A bad mold infestation is very hard and costly to truly eliminate.

When I leave my house for more than a couple of days in the winter, I leave the heat on, but shut off and drain the pipes anyway (a fairly easy process) - that way, should I lose power, I am much less likely to have a pipe issue. BTW, I have an automatic generator at my house and I still don't trust it (guess I am neurotic too).

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

This one is for you brainiacs who know all there is about closing a house for the winter months: Assuming that you have done almost everything possible to prevent a disaster in freezing weather, including draining the pipes, etc….if the house is on a slab, which makes emptying the hot water heater completely almost impossible,
my husband claims that the water heater would still contain some water. If that is so, and it’s a 50 gallon tank and there’s 10 to 20 gallons left in the tank, if there should be a freeze (power failure plus generator failure), wouldn’t the water, as it begins to freeze, merely expand to fill the available space in the tank and not result in a disaster?
This has been driving me nuts!
TIA for any useful advice.

Sue

Hi Sue,

Besides just draining why don’t you simply blow out your lines with an air compressor? This would ensure everything gets drained. It’s very simple to do just hookup a small compressor (preferably oiless) to your blue well tank (well-x-troll), set your compressor for 60 psi, then just repeatedly open and close all faucets, toilet tanks, washing machine, etc, etc, in your home until nothing but air comes out. It’s really pretty simple and will ensure your lines are completely drained.

Don’t forget to run RV antifreeze through your washing machine to avoid serious problems in the spring!

Good luck!

Dan

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Biggd

If it has that much water left in the tank it will be on the bottom. When it freezes it won't freeze upwards, it will freeze outwards, drain the tank completely! You can buy a small pump that hooks up to garden hoses to suck out all the water without making a mess. I think they should have them at Harbor Freight.

A neighbor shared this neat "kluge":

Drain the tank with a short (~3-foot) hose. When no more water drips out, raise the hose up fully and pour a half-cup of RV antifreeze down the hose. That is enough antifreeze to dilute safely any remaining water. Lowering the hose (to re-use the antifreeze) is optional.

[bigdog]

Originally Posted by Biggd

No reason to drain it if the heat is on.

On a side note, any reason I cannot shut-off main water valve in basement for the winter ? Furnace is gas propane and does not use water as an oil furnace would. Just trying to eliminate possible flooding.....

Sorry for any rudimentary questions but this is still new to me........

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by bigdog

On a side note, any reason I cannot shut-off main water valve in basement for the winter ? Furnace is gas propane and does not use water as an oil furnace would. Just trying to eliminate possible flooding.....

Sorry for any rudimentary questions but this is still new to me........

I always shut my circuit breaker but I still use my place all winter. If I wasn't around I would shut the water main valve also, but the safest bet is to drain everything in case your heat shuts down for an extended period.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Hi Sue,

Besides just draining why don’t you simply blow out your lines with an air compressor? This would ensure everything gets drained. It’s very simple to do just hookup a small compressor (preferably oiless) to your blue well tank (well-x-troll), set your compressor for 60 psi, then just repeatedly open and close all faucets, toilet tanks, washing machine, etc, etc, in your home until nothing but air comes out. It’s really pretty simple and will ensure your lines are completely drained.

Don’t forget to run RV antifreeze through your washing machine to avoid serious problems in the spring!

Good luck!

Dan

I started using the compressed air technique a few years ago.... I have great low point drains, but got tired of crawling under the camp..... Now that I have that all in place, my next improvement will be to create an enclosure for the pump and tank, added in some heat tape, and hopefully extend my season some... when I leave I will have things set up so I can blow out the lines that aren't protected... the the heat tape should be enough to keep the pump and tank from freezing up Just don't let my wife know, she thinks the season is long enough already.... I just want a few more weeks at the beginning of the season.

[phoenix]

I agree i use Smitty and he shuts down and opens up. I have forced hot water heat so all rooms area concern. I use a professional rather than guess and with him its worked for 10 years. Prior to that i used a plumber who is now retired so don't need to mention his name but he didnt do it right and we have three years of leakage in the ceiling. Smitty so far has been perfect

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I started using the compressed air technique a few years ago.... I have great low point drains, but got tired of crawling under the camp..... Now that I have that all in place, my next improvement will be to create an enclosure for the pump and tank, added in some heat tape, and hopefully extend my season some... when I leave I will have things set up so I can blow out the lines that aren't protected... the the heat tape should be enough to keep the pump and tank from freezing up Just don't let my wife know, she thinks the season is long enough already.... I just want a few more weeks at the beginning of the season.

Blowing out the lines with compressed air is always the safest bet. Sometimes you have pipes that are not pitched to drain or sag and hold water when just draining won't get it all out.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Blowing out the lines with compressed air is always the safest bet. Sometimes you have pipes that are not pitched to drain or sag and hold water when just draining won't get it all out.

The only reason for years that I trusted the low point drains, is because my father and I installed the entire system in the camp.... when I was younger crawling around under the camp was no big deal.... however I have a few more creaks than I used too... and by my age, my father had me to do that work, so he never had an issue either.... My kids are busy, and we just can't always make our schedules align to close the camp.... so I started down the road of just making things easier....

The camp next door, also has a low point drain, and has never had a problem... once again because it was designed that way, although they now have someone close who I believe also uses compressed air regardless....

[Biggd]

I used to have a 3-season camp in Alton Bay back in the 80's. My next-door neighbor built his camp with the kitchen and bathrooms over a corner of his house. He had everything draining into one small, insulated enclosure in the crawl space which he heated with a small propane wall heater. So he would just drain the pipes down to that room, put antifreeze in the traps, and just heat that area, very efficient!

[Sue Doe-Nym]

There are some really great suggestions here….much appreciated, that’s for sure. I really like the one using RV anti freeze…maybe that will work here. You just can’t be too careful with our frigid climate. With all the suggestions here, I hope that these are helpful to many of you. Happy winter 🥶!

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

There are some really great suggestions here….much appreciated, that’s for sure. I really like the one using RV anti freeze…maybe that will work here. You just can’t be too careful with our frigid climate. With all the suggestions here, I hope that these are helpful to many of you. Happy winter 🥶!

Sue, if you have a washing machine, you really have no choice but to use RV Antifreeze. There is no easy way to drain a washing machine fully. Below is a video I cut and pasted for you to show you how easy it is. The only thing I would do differently than the video is to use a full gallon of antifreeze and not a quart as they say. Also if you do blow out your lines there is no reason to remove the water lines from the back of your washer…

https://youtu.be/jp-zbirc_JI?feature=shared

Dan