Seaplane Base and runway 19 Mile Bay Proposed

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Invoking “discrimination” here is borderline offensive and not at all what is going on. If you are referring to the barges, see discussion above as to how those are being used as a necessity for town island residents to inhabit the islands.

The town wharf is not open for commercial use on a first come first serve basis. I can’t park my food truck there all day. A realtor can’t locate a sales shed there. A seaplane tour/charter business is not different.

Your comparisons are completely absurd. I think the more you talk I think the more the lurking readers of this forum see your point of view. I appreciate you exposing that and discussing this with me. You are completely discriminating against me because I fly an airplane.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

STOP the discrimination nonsense Epic!!! We are posting our opinions. I ask again when is the public hearing on your proposal scheduled for?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by DEJ

STOP the discrimination nonsense Epic!!! We are posting our opinions. I ask again when is the public hearing on your proposal scheduled for?

By definition it is discrimination...

noun
1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Sundancer320]

So, you came on here looking for an open discussion and when you’re pressed you get obstinate and a bit unhinged. It does not help your case by accusing people who will be affected by this operation of discrimination and insulting them. You’re argument of the barge use at the town dock is laughable. No matter how you slice it you are going to “base” your enterprise on the town dock and make money from its use. Residents who use the barges for delivery of supplies do so only sparingly, maybe once a season. You’re talking about several days a week, several times a day. If a barge operator were to sit at the town dock and hit up people for work or services, you might have a point. Even if you want to play semantics and say it’s not based there because you’re office is really in the garage at home, you’re still operating the business from a common place. The town dock.

[DEJ]

Epic, when is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Your comparisons are completely absurd. I think the more you talk I think the more the lurking readers of this forum see your point of view. I appreciate you exposing that and discussing this with me. You are completely discriminating against me because I fly an airplane.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[mhtranger]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.

As I see it it is quite different, the barge loads good and vacates the dock. Maybe there an hour or so as material is secured to the deck. To not return until the next load. Maybe same day maybe not.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by mhtranger

As I see it it is quite different, the barge loads good and vacates the dock. Maybe there an hour or so as material is secured to the deck. To not return until the next load. Maybe same day maybe not.

This is a good point. I will add that in all my years in Tuftonboro and regular use of the town wharf, I have seen a barge there less than a half dozen times. And never on the weekend, which is the busiest time for use of the wharf, and which would presumably be the same for prime operation of a charter/tour business.

[knowit]

I am in the process of having “No seaplanes at Union Wharf!” bumper stickers printed up. I will advise when they are available. We need to stop the for profit use of a town owned asset right now! Build your own damn dock!

[knowit]

And here’s another option for you, I know the Pier 19 Marina has an entire side of a dock finger they aren’t using. Why don’t you ask them for permission to use it?
Oh, that’s right, the Pier 19 Store is at war with their own association. She’s such a great business owner that she tried to block their access to their own docks! No thanks, we don’t need her entitled crap.

[Sundancer320]

I think this venture has too much liability exposure to the town. All it takes is one clumsy, overweight, near sighted, inebriated etc... passenger to take a tumble off the plane/dock/float and get seriously injured for the town to be pulled into a lawsuit. I spent my life in aviation and a lot of time working around floatplanes. It can be hazardous..I don’t care how much training or experience an operator has. Sometimes they can’t control the unknown factor called “passenger”

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by Sundancer320

I think this venture has too much liability exposure to the town. All it takes is one clumsy, overweight, near sighted, inebriated etc... passenger to take a tumble off the plane/dock/float and get seriously injured for the town to be pulled into a lawsuit. I spent my life in aviation and a lot of time working around floatplanes. It can be hazardous..I don’t care how much training or experience an operator has. Sometimes they can’t control the unknown factor called “passenger”

Sorry please tell me how this is any different than people coming up to the dock with a boat?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by knowit

I am in the process of having “No seaplanes at Union Wharf!” bumper stickers printed up. I will advise when they are available. We need to stop the for profit use of a town owned asset right now! Build your own damn dock!

So you can put it next to your " coexist" sticker.

I get it, you don't want Seaplanes there, but other commercial operations are completely fine.

Logical.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[knowit]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

So you can put it next to your " coexist" sticker.

I get it, you don't want Seaplanes there, but other commercial operations are completely fine.

Logical.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Your condescending attitude is not helping your cause very much.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by knowit

Your condescending attitude is not helping your cause very much.

We just want to be all inclusive, not single out anyone, or any business, and promote the town.

We live this town, we love this lake, and we love you too. I would never try to block access to a public pier. Not for a barge, a boat, an airboat (with a big scary propeller), not anyone...

I'm working with the town to have the dock posts lowered to allow for safer access to the dock for everyone. I'm sure the barge owners would love the posts lowered too. Loading and unloading equipment is very difficult with the dock posts so high.

This is a win for everyone and the town.

Even if the town decided that a commercial operator cannot access the pier we then shift directly to the access for a private owner so the issue doesn't go away at all.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Epic, for the sake of conversation what if the town says no to your proposed modification of the wharf posts so you can operate your scenic flights from town property?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I like planes. And I probably would’ve been a customer if you had a private base or were located at an airport. Not a town owned wharf. And my verdict is still open if you were based at a private dock in the bay (I would want to better understand the safety issues there).

Tell me, please. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to park my food truck on the wharf for half the day? Or tie up my pontoon with an ice cream stand?

By feigning discrimination, you are ignoring the fundamental differences between basing a commercial operation on the wharf and incidental use. You say the operation would not be based there—but if tours take off there, land there, have safety briefings there, and park there, and have the plane there for half the day, it’s based there.

[DEJ]

CowTimes, he has the ability to operate his business from his private dock on mirror lake where he keeps his plane in the water much of the summer. He could advertise these scenic flights right from there and avoid the congestion and fireboat and emergency vehicle issues and wharf issues etc... by conducting his business there. Problem solved.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks

Epic Seaplane Adventures

“You don’t like airplanes we get it.”

I think you should spend a little time retreading and editing before you post. My Dad had a 172 and some of the best times with him I remember were flights to remote airports for lunch, scenic flights in the fall to NH, ME, VT airports, flying to visit relatives in the Midwest, etc. I love airplanes.

The issue here has nothing to do with airplanes. It is your request to the town to make an accommodation for you so you can run your business from town property. I have yet to hear of any barge owner asking the town to cut down the tie posts so they could run their business from the dock.

I watched the selectmen’s meeting and was appalled when the store owner commented that someone could cut the tie posts in the middle of the night. Wow, that tells me all I need to know about your partner.

I wish you luck but, your prospects appear slimmer than Sisyphus pushing his rock up the mountain.


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[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

“You don’t like airplanes we get it.”

I think you should spend a little time retreading and editing before you post. My Dad had a 172 and some of the best times with him I remember were flights to remote airports for lunch, scenic flights in the fall to NH, ME, VT airports, flying to visit relatives in the Midwest, etc. I love airplanes.

The issue here has nothing to do with airplanes. It is your request to the town to make an accommodation for you so you can run your business from town property. I have yet to hear of any barge owner asking the town to cut down the tie posts so they could run their business from the dock.

I watched the selectmen’s meeting and was appalled when the store owner commented that someone could cut the tie posts in the middle of the night. Wow, that tells me all I need to know about your partner.

I wish you luck but, your prospects appear slimmer than Sisyphus pushing his rock up the mountain.


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Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Facts, please. How high off the wharf do the posts currently extend? How high off the wharf do you want/need the posts to be? Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts? Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

P.S. I like airplanes. See my avatar.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

Facts, please. How high off the wharf do the posts currently extend? How high off the wharf do you want/need the posts to be? Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts? Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

P.S. I like airplanes. See my avatar.

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened? How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside? When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be? It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

[knowit]

If you want shorter posts, maybe you should try not quoting people and then adding your snobby, entitled, and condescending comments. Man your posts are hard to follow Epic.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Please stop with the platitudes about potential private use for pilots coming in to get an ice cream at the store. If you weren’t trying to run a tour/charter business from this town dock, you wouldn’t have formed an LLC and gone through all the time and hassle to get an approved runway. The private use is just a fig leaf to waive around to suggest there are non-commercial use that would benefit. I just don’t buy it, and I still doubt that many private planes are going to fly in just to grab an ice cream when they can’t get aviation fuel.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Barges pretty much use the shallow side of the wharf as the fireboat and fish and game boat block barges from using the deeper side that most boaters use. This time of year the shallower side is fine for most all boats as water level is at full pool right now. Different story later into the summer/fall. The barges do require that the posts be higher, surely if they were cut down to deck height they could not tie up.

[Just Wonderin]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

If the posts on Union Wharf were lowered to deck height (I know you said "leaving enough for boaters to tie to") what would you suggest boats tie to? Or would adding cleats be another modification the town would need to make for the wharf? Or are you suggesting that only the posts that impede your access be modified to fit your need?

Just as an FYI the height of the posts actually do serve a purpose. The current height of the posts is about 3 feet. Many boaters use that height as an assist when entering and exiting their boat.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

No, I just happen to like airplanes. I’ve made my position pretty clear about your request for an accommodation (cutting down tie posts) and ceding part of the dock to you to run your sightseeing business. If you want to run your business you should build the costs associated w/infrastructure (docks) into your business plan.


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[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

Taxiing and safety briefings don’t occur at the dock. They probably occur simultaneously, like on a commercial airplane. Why would you think half an hour of air time translates to half an hour on the dock?


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[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Taxiing and safety briefings don’t occur at the dock. They probably occur simultaneously, like on a commercial airplane. Why would you think half an hour of air time translates to half an hour on the dock?


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That’s a good question, which I have been asking all afternoon. My guess is that there are safety and liability issues that require the safety briefing before getting on the plane, given the noise in one of these vs a commercial plane. But I haven’t got a straight answer after asking the question several times as to how long the plane would be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations (and as others pointed out, that may not be the case)

[Sundancer320]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

That’s a good question, which I have been asking all afternoon. My guess is that there are safety and liability issues that require the safety briefing before getting on the plane, given the noise in one of these vs a commercial plane. But I haven’t got a straight answer after asking the question several times as to how long the plane would be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations (and as others pointed out, that may not be the case)

This is a single pilot operation. The pilot will conduct the briefings before they leave the dock and will not be able to safely maneuver the plane while also trying to give a safety brief. My guess is once all passengers are at the plane, they will receive a 10 minute or so safety brief then load and go.