Newspaper: How much is too much?

madrasahs · 08-19-2004, 07:35 AM

Excerpts, including one that rings familiar:

“You don’t need 1,000 horsepower on a recreational lake. Do people really need to get from Weirs Beach to Wolfeboro in 10 minutes? They’re offshore boats and that’s where they belong. Offshore. In the ocean,” Fay said. “Our sailboaters are petrified.”

"...Thurston said his concern is with the quality of the boating experience on the lake. He thinks it’s going downhill. It’s so rough out there. There’s so much traffic and so much wake from the big boats that it’s hard for smaller boats, not to mention sailboats and canoes, to get around. This has always been known as a family boating lake and I’m worried that we’re losing that emphasis on family,” Thurston said.

He said he’d like to see various options studied, including possible limits on speed, displacement, and size and length of boats.

Paul Polewarczyk of Sterling, Mass., who traded up from a 39-foot Carver to a 41-foot Regal express cruiser with a 750-horsepower engine, said he doesn’t think boats like his are such a big problem.... His biggest complaint is the effect on his eardrums. “The noise level on those go-fast boats is horrendous"

Boat registrations in New Hampshire now top 101,000 “There’s no doubt that the large boats do create bigger wakes.” Barrett said. He said the real issue is “how much is too much?”

http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...?article=42520

PROPELLER · 08-19-2004, 07:44 AM

Fays & Thurstons say they are concerned about the number & size of the boats on the lake but I am not aware of them limiting the size or the number of boats they sell. Can't have it both ways.

PROPELLER · 08-19-2004, 08:25 AM

What is Fays & Thurstons definition of too big & too much HP? Thurstons sells Cobalts & they have a 36' cruiser in their line that can have as much as 1050 HP, I know for a fact Thurstons has sold a 360 cruiser this year because there was one docked in MVYC earlier this summer with Thurstons employees installing accessory equipment. If any one of us goes to Thurstons & says we want to buy the Cobalt 360 with the twin 525 HP engines, are we going to be turned away because they feel its too much, no way!

Fays sells Chapparal boats & they have a 35' cruiser in their line with as much as 750 HP cable of terrorizing & knocking around his sailboat customers if the operator was so inclined. Right now on this web site classified section there is a 330 Chapparal cruiser for sale by Fays, I guess we know by Fays definition 33' cruisers are not too big. If any one of us goes to Fays & says we want to buy the 350 cruiser with the twin 375 HP engines, are they going to say no we will not sell you that boat because my sailboat customers are terrified of 35' cruisers loaded with HP, no way!

Is either Thurstons or Fays going to say in mid July that we have sold too many boats already and the lake is very crowded so we are shutting down our sales operation for the remainder of the season, no way!

Who are these two kidding?

Mee-n-Mac · 08-19-2004, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PROPELLER

{snip} Is either Thurstons or Fays going to say in mid July that we have sold too many boats already and the lake is very crowded so we are shutting down our sales operation for the remainder of the season, no way!

From my viewpoint in Alton Bay the above is more the issue than either boat LOA or displacement. I would agree w/Thurston that the "offshore" performance boats don't generate near as big a wake as the cruisers, ala Carvers and Silvertons, which can generate some big wakes. But when & where the lake gets crowded, (most) people slow down. Unfortunately they don't slow down to NWS but instead mush along where even a "small" boat generates "cruiser sized" wakes. Add 2 or 3 intersecting wakes and it's time to go surfing.

CMG · 08-19-2004, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PROPELLER

If any one of us goes to Thurstons & says we want to buy the Cobalt 360 with the twin 525 HP engines, are we going to be turned away because they feel its too much, no way!

Excellent point! That sob is selling a boat that does better than 80mph.

itchin for fishin · 08-20-2004, 08:23 PM

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out over the next 5-10 years. There is no question that the go-fast boats have increased significantly in the last 10 years. I feel a lot that happens will depend on them. If the trend continues, given the number of boats and the speed, the State will impose a speed limit. This is where the Baja's owners club, and others, can work to deal with the many legitimate issues that people have about the go-fast boats, most notably the arrogance of some (notice I did not say most).

I do respect their right to the lake as anyone else. The cruisers do have the privilege of the largest wakes, the go-fast boats have the issue of the least amount of time to correct for an error in judgement. This is what will ultimately cook them unless they take the lead on this.

madrasahs · 08-23-2004, 05:06 PM

From last weekend, this story from www.catsailor.com:

"My 15 year old son and I showed up at Hobie Beach for the scheduled races on Saturday the 17th. John set up the course the way that Tradewinds was set up, windward / leeward with a gate. We had scheduled 4 races for the day and had completed two and had just started the third. We were roughly 400 yards off shore and about 600 yards south of the Rickenbacker Causeway.

"We were on port tack heading west at about 8 knots, Scotty was on the wire and I was sitting inboard in an attempt to lift the hull a little. All of the sudden I hear my son say Dad!, Dad! I looked to the right and saw the port side of this huge powerboat still on a plane. At the same moment that I looked the impact occurred, I had no opportunity to maneuver my boat. His boat was already crunching mine. A fraction of a second after the impact it seemed as if he made a full hard turn to starboard and all I could thing about was propellers. Next thing I know I was underwater, I think it was only for 3-4 seconds. When my PFD popped me up I immediately started scanning the surface for my son, he was nowhere in sight.

"I started to panic but he came to the surface a few seconds later. He said he was pulled under by the trapeze and had to unhook to get free.

"I don't remember hearing anything until after I saw Scotty, then I head screaming on the power boat. All this happened so fast yet so slow. The images in my brain are very vivid, I noticed that I had lost a batten cap from the bottom batten as I saw the powerboat make impact. I can see the hole in the end of the boom where I had moved the block hanger. I can see the stainless rail on the powerboat and the chines in the lower section of the hull. I never saw the bow of the powerboat so that indicates that he hit me near the shrouds. That’s all I can say about that. Soon after, all the catsailors were back at the scene making sure we were not hurt, thank fully nothing too serious.

"He circled around and pulled us out of the water after about 5 minutes. The were apologetic although communication was difficult because of language barriers. I sat there on the powerboat watching my parts float away, everything was still connected by shrouds and sheets. Finally, a cop on a jet ski showed up and made sure we were OK and to report the accident to the Marine Patrol. He took the basic story, shook his head, and then ordered the power boat to stop and wait for the authorities. The coast guard stopped by but then left, finally the Miami Police came by.

"At this point my son and swam back to Hobie Beach to get my truck and to retrieve the mangled mess from the beach. The police took the powerboat to the Miami Yacht Club where I met up with them with the remains of my boat. Now they put us in separate rooms and took written statements from everybody involved. I was given a case number and asked to provide witnesses, then sent home.

"One of the eyewitnesses told me that the boat was traveling at "top speed" at the point of impact."

Footnotes:

I'd commend the professionalism shown by the authorities.

I've sailed off this very long, shallow, beach (miles long, good for beginning windsurfers). This collision occurred right where Gloria Estefán killed the Jet-Skier with her cruiser five years ago. Wide-open water, sunny day.

jrc · 08-24-2004, 09:22 AM

Wow, glad no one was hurt. Where is the Rickenbacker Causeway? Can't find it on my Bizer map, is it another name for the Governors Island bridge? Seems like both captains should be cited for failing to keep a proper lookout, at least.

Rob · 08-24-2004, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

Where is the Rickenbacker Causeway? Can't find it on my Bizer map

That's because the Rickenbacker Causeway isn't on Lake Winnipesaukee, or any lake, for that matter. It's on the Atlantic Ocean, in Miami, Florida. Of course, that information is buried at the very end of the article, so I can certainly understand the confusion.

When Gloria Estefan moves to the Lakes Region, then her boating record may be of interest to the Lake Winnipesaukee community, but at this point, I'm not sure what an accident that took place 5 years ago and over a thousand miles away, has to do with this lake.

I always thought that information posted on this site is about Lake Winnipesaukee, or at least, the Lakes Region in general. That's because at the home page for Winnipesaukee.com, I see this:

Quote:

Welcome to The Lake Winnipesaukee Home Page,

your online portal to the Lake and the communities that surround it.

Mee-n-Mac · 08-24-2004, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itchin for fishin

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out over the next 5-10 years. There is no question that the go-fast boats have increased significantly in the last 10 years. I feel a lot that happens will depend on them. If the trend continues, given the number of boats and the speed, the State will impose a speed limit. This is where the Baja's owners club, and others, can work to deal with the many legitimate issues that people have about the go-fast boats, most notably the arrogance of some (notice I did not say most).

I do respect their right to the lake as anyone else. The cruisers do have the privilege of the largest wakes, the go-fast boats have the issue of the least amount of time to correct for an error in judgement. This is what will ultimately cook them unless they take the lead on this.

I agree with what you said above. Certainly both the performance and cruiser clubs will have a say in curbing the excesses of the minority but I'm not sure this will preclude a speed limit or other restrictions. Imagine the case with just, but more, smaller boats using the lake as time goes by. There's going to be more mishaps and there'll be cries "to do something". Hopefully the regulators will make informed decisions but who knows. I've seen several thoughtful and innovative ideas posted before (ie - 1way/circular traffic flow around Eagle I) so perhaps an answer that preserves present privileges and still "does something" might be found right here ! (ie - stay right traffic buoys, my personal rant

)

madrasahs · 08-25-2004, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jack

so does the fact that these two guys might be hypocrites mean that their latest statements are not correct?

Fay and Thurston aren't hypocrites -- any more than we are when we pump 50 cents worth of Saudi oil with every gallon of gasoline into our gas tanks. We (and they) do it because they have to.

Fay admits to nearly 70 years on the lake, and I believe his comments to be altruistic. If not, are "Ocean Boats" sales really affecting sales of "Family Boats"? They certainly impact the enjoyment of Winnipesaukee boating -- even the "Big Boats" complained: Ocean Speedsters say that wakes from Ocean Cruisers can "flip their boats at high speeds". The Ocean Cruisers complain that the Ocean Speedsters "make ear-shattering noises".

Not so long ago, a 16-foot boat was just fine for waterskiing. (We skied two behind a 14-footer). Today, a docked 18-footer can take water over the transom, and there's horror stories on Winnipesaukee about even larger boats taking water over the bow! Time to "move up"? Today, it's not unusual to see a 28-footer towing a skier or tube.

From here, it certainly appears that Thurston's "Family" boaters "move up" in size every few years. That compounds the wake problem for other "Family" boaters, who are also forced to "move up". It's a cycle that benefits nobody (while I watch my shoreline soil and natural leaf cover wash into the lake).

Maybe news this weekend that NH Safety Commisioner Flynn may be on the way out will prompt some changes soon. (Increase registration fees was my suggestion last season -- except I'd go big with "wetted area" + engine displacement).

I think Director Barrett's comment "How much is too much?" can be answered every day -- at every stopped Marine Patrol boat.

When an MP stops a boat for an infraction, and infractions occur nearby while the summons is being written?

THAT'S TOO MUCH!

Kona Bay Girl · 08-26-2004, 03:31 PM

Actually, most of the oil going into the United States is not connected with terrorists in any ways.

In my experience on the lake, I've come across many a boat. The one that seems to frighten me the most is the Cabin Cruiser/Yacht. When a fast boat is at a plane, it can usually cut through the water with no problem. Their wakes are generally small. A boat the same size with a rounder hull will create a larger wake because the hull rides the waves instead of cutting through them. Plus, the offshore boats usually have a seat that will cradle you into looking over the windshield.

When I hear the words "big wakes," my mind doesn't immediately go to the fastest boats on the lake. Instead, I think of the largest.

I know the horsepower isn't needed in all of these "offshore" boats, and neither is their presence. If one lives on a boat, they could be my guest and cruise around. However, when I see boats that have more stories than my house does I get a little wary.

PROPELLER · 08-27-2004, 12:14 PM

Mad, your post does not make clear how pumping gas into our tanks makes us all hypocrits. My understanding of hypocrit is: you say one thing and & act in an opposing way. Your analogy has the act of pumping gas into our tank but it does not say what we are all saying in opposition to that act that makes us all hypocrits.

The fact that Fays & Thurstons has been selling large boats lets say for example the last 20 years & then to stand up at a meeting & complain that those same big boats are ruining the lake, I don't see how that is anything but hypocritical.

They do have a choice, they could sell what ever size boat they feel is appropriate for the lake & still make a very comfortable living.

Rolie · 08-27-2004, 12:47 PM

Now wait just a minute. The marinas are in business to sell boats...big boats, little boats, motor boats and wind powered ones. Whatever the customer wants to buy. That's business.
Is a book store owner a hypocrite if they sell books that promote or condone activities and ideas which they may not necessarily agree with. Certainly not.

PROPELLER · 08-27-2004, 02:37 PM

Rolie, I take it from your post you will be voting for Senator John Kerry, the most infamous hypocrit, for president?

Juawanna · 08-28-2004, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob

When Gloria Estefan moves to the Lakes Region, then her boating record may be of interest to the Lake Winnipesaukee community, but at this point, I'm not sure what an accident that took place 5 years ago and over a thousand miles away, has to do with this lake.[/font][/center]

Rob -
I realize this is not about the Lakes Region, but since you brought up her name, was Gloria Estefan not found guilty in this boating accident? I recall reading about this but can not recall the outcome. (and you're right her boating accident has nothing to do with the lake, but you peaked my curiosity - sorry

)

madrasahs · 08-29-2004, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Propeller

Mad, your post does not make clear how pumping gas into our tanks makes us all hypocrits.

Rolie's example can't be improved upon, but here's some more "trys":

1) We don't like Terrorists, right?

Kona Bay Girl stated most of our petrodollars don't fund Terror. But some does: http://slate.msn.com/?id=115757 (See Saudi, then Pakistan).

2) We all agree that China should never deploy an aircraft carrier. (But we buy computers, air conditioners, tents, and toys made in monolithic China because there are few other market alternatives today).

3) Librarians don't want men in big coats at the library's computers. (But they allow it because they're compelled to).

They, like Fay, are not hypocrites. Big Boats on Winnipesaukee are the Big Coats in libraries.
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by juanna

"...was Gloria Estefán not found guilty in this boating accident?

Actually, her hubby was at the helm, and was absolved. (But the Jet-Skier remains dead).
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob

I'm not sure what an accident that took place 5 years ago and over a thousand miles away, has to do with this lake.

Read it again: the collision I posted isn't two weeks old yet. It's the exact kind of collision that Merrill Fay fears for his rentals.

BTW, What does a bear helping himself to Rainier Beer in Seattle have to do with Winnipesaukee? A purple-and-gold carburetor in New Jersey? Back yard chickens? Lake Hopsalong?

Actually, I like -- and welcome -- the mix of threads here. But just because you complain about it, I'm not going to post the latest addition to lake water done by the enviro-friendly Dave Matthews Band.
.
.
.
.
.
Well, OK, but just this once: http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,...,00.html?tnews

(Remember, It Can't Happen Here)

08-19-2004, 07:35 AM	#1
madrasahs Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 381 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Newspaper: How much is too much? Excerpts, including one that rings familiar: “You don’t need 1,000 horsepower on a recreational lake. Do people really need to get from Weirs Beach to Wolfeboro in 10 minutes? They’re offshore boats and that’s where they belong. Offshore. In the ocean,” Fay said. “Our sailboaters are petrified.” "...Thurston said his concern is with the quality of the boating experience on the lake. He thinks it’s going downhill. It’s so rough out there. There’s so much traffic and so much wake from the big boats that it’s hard for smaller boats, not to mention sailboats and canoes, to get around. This has always been known as a family boating lake and I’m worried that we’re losing that emphasis on family,” Thurston said. He said he’d like to see various options studied, including possible limits on speed, displacement, and size and length of boats. Paul Polewarczyk of Sterling, Mass., who traded up from a 39-foot Carver to a 41-foot Regal express cruiser with a 750-horsepower engine, said he doesn’t think boats like his are such a big problem.... His biggest complaint is the effect on his eardrums. “The noise level on those go-fast boats is horrendous" Boat registrations in New Hampshire now top 101,000 “There’s no doubt that the large boats do create bigger wakes.” Barrett said. He said the real issue is “how much is too much?” http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...?article=42520

08-19-2004, 08:25 AM	#3
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	How much is too much? What is Fays & Thurstons definition of too big & too much HP? Thurstons sells Cobalts & they have a 36' cruiser in their line that can have as much as 1050 HP, I know for a fact Thurstons has sold a 360 cruiser this year because there was one docked in MVYC earlier this summer with Thurstons employees installing accessory equipment. If any one of us goes to Thurstons & says we want to buy the Cobalt 360 with the twin 525 HP engines, are we going to be turned away because they feel its too much, no way! Fays sells Chapparal boats & they have a 35' cruiser in their line with as much as 750 HP cable of terrorizing & knocking around his sailboat customers if the operator was so inclined. Right now on this web site classified section there is a 330 Chapparal cruiser for sale by Fays, I guess we know by Fays definition 33' cruisers are not too big. If any one of us goes to Fays & says we want to buy the 350 cruiser with the twin 375 HP engines, are they going to say no we will not sell you that boat because my sailboat customers are terrified of 35' cruisers loaded with HP, no way! Is either Thurstons or Fays going to say in mid July that we have sold too many boats already and the lake is very crowded so we are shutting down our sales operation for the remainder of the season, no way! Who are these two kidding? Last edited by PROPELLER; 08-19-2004 at 08:33 AM.

08-23-2004, 05:06 PM	#7
madrasahs Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 381 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Sailors are terrified? From last weekend, this story from www.catsailor.com: "My 15 year old son and I showed up at Hobie Beach for the scheduled races on Saturday the 17th. John set up the course the way that Tradewinds was set up, windward / leeward with a gate. We had scheduled 4 races for the day and had completed two and had just started the third. We were roughly 400 yards off shore and about 600 yards south of the Rickenbacker Causeway. "We were on port tack heading west at about 8 knots, Scotty was on the wire and I was sitting inboard in an attempt to lift the hull a little. All of the sudden I hear my son say Dad!, Dad! I looked to the right and saw the port side of this huge powerboat still on a plane. At the same moment that I looked the impact occurred, I had no opportunity to maneuver my boat. His boat was already crunching mine. A fraction of a second after the impact it seemed as if he made a full hard turn to starboard and all I could thing about was propellers. Next thing I know I was underwater, I think it was only for 3-4 seconds. When my PFD popped me up I immediately started scanning the surface for my son, he was nowhere in sight. "I started to panic but he came to the surface a few seconds later. He said he was pulled under by the trapeze and had to unhook to get free. "I don't remember hearing anything until after I saw Scotty, then I head screaming on the power boat. All this happened so fast yet so slow. The images in my brain are very vivid, I noticed that I had lost a batten cap from the bottom batten as I saw the powerboat make impact. I can see the hole in the end of the boom where I had moved the block hanger. I can see the stainless rail on the powerboat and the chines in the lower section of the hull. I never saw the bow of the powerboat so that indicates that he hit me near the shrouds. That’s all I can say about that. Soon after, all the catsailors were back at the scene making sure we were not hurt, thank fully nothing too serious. "He circled around and pulled us out of the water after about 5 minutes. The were apologetic although communication was difficult because of language barriers. I sat there on the powerboat watching my parts float away, everything was still connected by shrouds and sheets. Finally, a cop on a jet ski showed up and made sure we were OK and to report the accident to the Marine Patrol. He took the basic story, shook his head, and then ordered the power boat to stop and wait for the authorities. The coast guard stopped by but then left, finally the Miami Police came by. "At this point my son and swam back to Hobie Beach to get my truck and to retrieve the mangled mess from the beach. The police took the powerboat to the Miami Yacht Club where I met up with them with the remains of my boat. Now they put us in separate rooms and took written statements from everybody involved. I was given a case number and asked to provide witnesses, then sent home. "One of the eyewitnesses told me that the boat was traveling at "top speed" at the point of impact." Footnotes: I'd commend the professionalism shown by the authorities. I've sailed off this very long, shallow, beach (miles long, good for beginning windsurfers). This collision occurred right where Gloria Estefán killed the Jet-Skier with her cruiser five years ago. Wide-open water, sunny day.

08-26-2004, 03:31 PM	#12
Kona Bay Girl Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Middlesex County, MA Posts: 160 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Actually, most of the oil going into the United States is not connected with terrorists in any ways. In my experience on the lake, I've come across many a boat. The one that seems to frighten me the most is the Cabin Cruiser/Yacht. When a fast boat is at a plane, it can usually cut through the water with no problem. Their wakes are generally small. A boat the same size with a rounder hull will create a larger wake because the hull rides the waves instead of cutting through them. Plus, the offshore boats usually have a seat that will cradle you into looking over the windshield. When I hear the words "big wakes," my mind doesn't immediately go to the fastest boats on the lake. Instead, I think of the largest. I know the horsepower isn't needed in all of these "offshore" boats, and neither is their presence. If one lives on a boat, they could be my guest and cruise around. However, when I see boats that have more stories than my house does I get a little wary. __________________ Yo soy un casco.

08-27-2004, 12:14 PM	#13
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not Hypocrits? Mad, your post does not make clear how pumping gas into our tanks makes us all hypocrits. My understanding of hypocrit is: you say one thing and & act in an opposing way. Your analogy has the act of pumping gas into our tank but it does not say what we are all saying in opposition to that act that makes us all hypocrits. The fact that Fays & Thurstons has been selling large boats lets say for example the last 20 years & then to stand up at a meeting & complain that those same big boats are ruining the lake, I don't see how that is anything but hypocritical. They do have a choice, they could sell what ever size boat they feel is appropriate for the lake & still make a very comfortable living.

08-19-2004, 07:44 AM	#2
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Fays & Thurstons say they are concerned about the number & size of the boats on the lake but I am not aware of them limiting the size or the number of boats they sell. Can't have it both ways.

08-20-2004, 08:23 PM	#6
itchin for fishin Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 105 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	It will be interesting to see how this all plays out over the next 5-10 years. There is no question that the go-fast boats have increased significantly in the last 10 years. I feel a lot that happens will depend on them. If the trend continues, given the number of boats and the speed, the State will impose a speed limit. This is where the Baja's owners club, and others, can work to deal with the many legitimate issues that people have about the go-fast boats, most notably the arrogance of some (notice I did not say most). I do respect their right to the lake as anyone else. The cruisers do have the privilege of the largest wakes, the go-fast boats have the issue of the least amount of time to correct for an error in judgement. This is what will ultimately cook them unless they take the lead on this.

08-24-2004, 09:22 AM	#8
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Wow, glad no one was hurt. Where is the Rickenbacker Causeway? Can't find it on my Bizer map, is it another name for the Governors Island bridge? Seems like both captains should be cited for failing to keep a proper lookout, at least.

08-27-2004, 12:47 PM	#14
Rolie Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 57 Thanks: 4 Thanked 7 Times in 4 Posts	Now wait just a minute. The marinas are in business to sell boats...big boats, little boats, motor boats and wind powered ones. Whatever the customer wants to buy. That's business. Is a book store owner a hypocrite if they sell books that promote or condone activities and ideas which they may not necessarily agree with. Certainly not.

08-27-2004, 02:37 PM	#15
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Rolie, I take it from your post you will be voting for Senator John Kerry, the most infamous hypocrit, for president?