Accident on the Broads

[Rattlesnake Gal]

This accident happened around 5:45 this evening. I do not know any details. Hope eveyone is all right.

[madrasahs]

Hey! Isn't that one of those whatchamacallit boats? With the special nose?

1) The one that a new owner can enjoy working on the engines?

2) That is fast so that one can see all of the lake in the shortest amount of time?

3) The one that pollutes less than other boats?

4) The one that gives the most comfort while on the Broads?

Well, the lake water is comfortable enough, so that boat meets every requirement!

('Didn't think about seeing under the surface, though).

[madrasahs]

A boat malfunction.

Could be.

Now that you mention it, the whatchamacallit boat I was thinking of usually "malfunctions" to an up-side-down posture.

Still, you should be hearing from the many folks who maintain that you're wrong. "It's not the boat -- it's the driver."


I think it's the boat.

[Sculpin]

I was out Salmon fishing and the boat that flipped Sat at 545 pm was 200-300 yds ahead of me doing donuts. they were going 50-60 yds straight and then turning sharp left turns, Powering up and down. If the boat was malfunctioning, (as someone suggested) why would it come back to straight and be powering up and down. It appeared that they were driving aggressively to say the least.
I was the closest boat , but 2-3 boats had them picked up b4 I could even start to get my lines up BY THE WAY I got a nice salmon 5 mins after the stunt men flipped the boat!!!!!!

[Just Sold]

First.... from what was said it appears no one was serioulsy hurt and that is a good thing.

Second...
From Sculpin's description the driver was driving recklessly and without regard for their passengers or others on the lake. There is no excuse for driving that way on any lake.

It goes to show you that there are those people who should not own or be allowed to use another person's high powered (off shore type) or regular power boat for that matter.

I am not sure it would work but some people I have talked to lately even promote a driving school and test requirement for all boaters along with the current Boating Safety Course.

You can show them the ropes of boating but they need to show more resonsibilty for their actions when on the water.

[Belmont Resident]

The boat was being operated by the owner who from what I heard and observed from his attitude when I met him, has a liking for reckless operation. I met him last year while at West Alton sand bar.
My impression is he has little or no regard for other boaters or the rules of the water. He is the type who gives all of us a bad reputation. The boat is a Cigarette boat purchased from a well know singer or actor who had it down in Florida. To bad it was a really nice looking boat.
Glad none of the passengers were hurt.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Now that I have the red and black figured out, someone starts placing white buoys?

[CMG]

Just Sold, if you were born after January 1, 1973 this would already apply to you: http://www.boat-ed.com/nh/course/p4-3_whomayoperate.htm
(it will apply to all by 2007)

A person under 16 years of age may not legally operate a vessel powered by more than 25 horsepower unless he or she is accompanied by a person 18 years of age or older who has a valid Safe Boater Education Certificate. The accompanying person is responsible for any injury or damage caused during operation of the vessel.

No one under the age of 16 years may legally operate a “ski craft” (a vessel less than 13 feet in length that is capable of exceeding 20 miles per hour and has capacity to carry no more than two persons).

Subject to the restrictions above, persons as shown on the table below may operate a vessel powered by more than 25 horsepower only if he or she has obtained a Safe Boater Education Certificate.

The certificate must be obtained by successfully completing a boating safety course or equivalency exam approved by the New Hampshire Marine Patrol or a National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA) approved course of another state.
The certificate must be carried onboard.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm just happy noone was killed. If anone hears the real details please post.
Thanks, Chris

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

"...My impression is he has little or no regard for other boaters or the rules of the water. He is the type who gives all of us a bad reputation. The boat is a Cigarette boat..."

"OPERATOR MADE A HIGH SPEED TURN CAUSING THE BOAT TO CAPSIZE. OPERATOR WAS CITED FOR FAILURE TO EXERCISE THE HIGHEST DEGREE OF CARE."

"He's" got company. That's a quote from a police report on a flipped Cigarette in Missouri last month. (Not a problem for family tubing, skiing, sightseers, night-time dinner trips, and sailboats if the "Offshores" are offshore in the ocean).

http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...ict=&ID=040025

[CMG]

The majority of "Offshore" boaters are safe and courteous (are all elderly drivers dangerous, did you see the news last night? old lady went thru roof of house!). We all deal with the sky rocketing insurance rates due to accidents like this and few deserve the rising cost and reputation. (btw, I have many years in offshore boats, never had an incident,insurance claim or ticket of any type) It seems most of the accidents like this happen with inexperienced operators, they try to find the limits of the boat and obviously go to far.

BTW, they are referred as "offshore" boats because of their ability to withstand offshore conditions - if you spend anytime on the lake you know how rough it can get. They are the only kind of boat to be on when the water kicks up, reagrdless of desired speed. Mine is only 31 feet and have been in monster conditions offshore and always make it back in 1 piece. I spend little time on the lake because it seems like an endless rookie trianing camp for new and discourteous boaters, reagrdless of type and size.
Happy boating!

[Just Sold]

CMG,

I did realize the law and the requirements for boating and the responsibility of the person driving. I am way before 1973....I started coming to the lake in the mid 50's... and took the course in 2002.

I am not against anyone owning or legally driving a boat. I only pointed out that there are those that do not follow what they had to have studied in the boating safety course. There are those that will always do what they want even if it endangers others including their passengers.

I am not against off shore boats or their owners either. It is just not the type of boating I enjoy.

We all share the precious resource of Lake Winnipesaukee and we should keep it safe for everyone. It is a privilege not a right!

[Belmont Resident]

I inquired on a previous post of madrashs opinion of boats by asking his opinion of what is an offshore. Basicly anything with a motor he dislikes.
My heart goes out to those people who are getting taxed off of the lake.
In his case I and many others I've talked to on the lake that read the postings on this forum will not miss him if this should happen.
madrashs your postings have gotten so bad I've noticed that Skip is one of the only few who bother to debate you. Most of us just see your name attached and don't bother to read.
I get frustrated with boating on the lake but I've never seen a more negative person in my life. One can only hope there are not more like him.

[MAXUM]

Good another one bites the dust. Serves this jack *** right!

[Bill B]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

Most of us just see your name attached and don't bother to read.

Hey Belmont Resident, how do you know what MOST of us think or read. I've never posted before, how do you know what I think? Why don't you speak for yourself?

Sorry to disappoint you but I think there is a lot of truth in what he says. A speed or HP limit is badly needed on this inland lake and will arrive someday. Mark my words.

[CMG]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Good another one bites the dust. Serves this jack *** right!

This is quite a site you have here - finding peasure in an accident that could have killed someone. Maxum, I am sure that you have never had a speeding ticket, an accident or whatever in a car. If you or one of your family dies in a drowning accident, you won't mind if some finds glee in it and posts a yahoo!
For the record, if he could afford a $400,000 boat, he'll get another one. Enjoy the couple of days that there is 1 less boat on your lake.

[MAXUM]

CMG-

Where the heck do you get off here anyways?

What am I supposed to feel bad for somebody who's own witnessed reckless actions caused this to happen? Ya OK you're right even though he was traveling at EXCESSIVE speed, taking ABRUPT and SHARP turns that was perfectly SAFE operation. Nah you're right that had NOTHING to do with it at all. If anything the poor guy must have been the victim of a faulty boat as it could not handle such safe and elementary operation. Oh and to heck with the fact that his irresponsible behavior put how much gas and oil into the lake? So sorry for my lack of compassion here but I find it extremely unfortuante that the Darwin theory was not applied here to save us all any future accidents waiting to happen courtesy for this idiot.

Oh and I'm not claiming the lake as my own either, where ever that came from. But excuse me if I don't get just slighty PO'd when a totally avoidable "accident" like this occurs as gas and oil don't do a whole heck of a lot to the water quality which in case you didn't know effects EVERYONE who uses the lake. Not to mention the cost of time and materials having the MP show up and deal with this whole thing, I'm sure his insurance will not refund the taxpayers for the full cost of time and materials on this one. I'm no tree hugger by any strech of the imagination, but I also do not condone irresponsible use of our natural resources either.

IF this had been an unfortunate accident then I would feel bad for everyone involved. This guy was clearly pushing the limits and found out the hard way what happens when you push to far. I hope he's d**nmed proud of himself.

Oh one last thing, as for speeding tickets and accidents, you are right never been in or had a one, but then again I choose not to break the law either which call me silly probably has something to do with my lack of either.

[CMG]

"Ya OK you're right even though he was traveling at EXCESSIVE speed, taking ABRUPT and SHARP turns that was perfectly SAFE operation."
At what point did I say that?

"If anything the poor guy must have been the victim of a faulty boat as it could not handle such safe and elementary operation"
This is news to me

"Oh one last thing, as for speeding tickets and accidents, you are right never been in or had a one, but then again I choose not to break the law either which call me silly probably has something to do with my lack of either."
Good for you gramps.

You have an over-active imagination, I said nothing to justify the incident or his operation of the boat, my problem is with a jack*** cheering an accident.

[MAXUM]

Simply stated, why should I feel bad for a person who was being reckless? Far from it, I stand by my inital comment. If this person had gotten killed I still would not feel bad. If this had really been an accident not caused by reckless operation then I would feel bad.

Nice call me gramps for being a good law abiding citizen. That certainly is a fine example to set. Oh and for the record here I have a VERY long way to go before you can call me gramps...

[madrasahs]

It's raining , so here goes:

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

I inquired on a previous post of madrashs opinion of boats by asking his opinion of what is an offshore. Basicly anything with a motor he dislikes.

I own a powerboat.

My heart goes out to those people who are getting taxed
off of the lake.

My neighbors (of a half-century) sold out last year because they couldn't maintain a repeat summer rental business. Reason? Big Wake damage to the renters' "small" boats.

In his case I and many others I've talked to on the lake
that read the postings on this forum will not miss him if this should happen.

My e-mailed "Fan-mail" and "Hate-mail" is running 50-50. Not bad, considering this straight-from-the shoulder, provocative style.

madrashs your postings have gotten so bad I've noticed that Skip is one of the only few who bother to debate you. Most of us just see your name attached and don't bother to read.

Thanks for reading.

I get frustrated with boating on the lake but I've never seen a more negative person in my life.

1) Yeah, I'm really down on ocean boats inappropriate for Winnipesaukee.
2) Negative? Wait a minute -- didn't you first post the terms "Weekend Warrior", "Drinking--while Boating Responsibly", "Staring-down a boater with the ROW?" and kayak "Speed Bumps"?

These posts just beg answering!

One can only hope there are not more like him.

If you don't like Winnipesaukee bald eagle sightings, old boats, handpumped wells, sailboating, local weather predicting, the quiet, leveling dock suggestions, swimming moose observations, mooring constructioin, the loons, bats, hummingbirds, kayak speedbumps, help with repairing your dock, locating sailboat sails, help finding a dog, moose/auto avoidance, finding Camp Wyanoke e-addresses, New Hampshire history...

or...

If you like Winnipesaukee water pollution, air pollution, milfoil, McMansions, Mega-Yachts, E. coli, silting-in, oil-spills, Big Wakes, unlighted boats at night, loud exhaust, non-enforcement of laws, Class "B" lake water, "View-Clearing", big green lawns, frantic drivers, extinctions, algae, burglar alarms, fishing the beds, murky water, Suburbia growing on Winnipesaukee's hills, Aspenization, monied interests, lobbyists, drunks, loose swim rafts, gas boycotts, bad drivers, and losing New Hampshire's small airports, there is always the buddy/ignore page: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...hp?do=editlist

Offshore boaters would still be happy if Lake Winnipesaukee was a mix of saltwater and ethylene glycol -- especially if that mixture caused those boats to gain 4 MPH.

Me, my parents -- and their parents -- have lived, sipped, and camped, Lake Winnipesaukee.

We would be unhappy.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Good another one bites the dust. .....

While I don't wish harm on anyone, I think it better he damaged his own boat and didn't hurt someone else. In that respect, I have to agree with MAXUM.

[Tyler]

that some are jumping on this issue as if it is normal activity regarding boating on the lake. Offshore or bow riders or sail boats all make mistakes and unfortunately there are a few yahoo's in each category that ruin it for all of us. I just wish that those who choose to bash a particular type of water craft on this site would expand their vision and realize that it is not just one category of boaters that are causing problems on winni, it is ALL of us. Until we come to terms with that there will never be a solution to boating issues on winni which I believe have been blown out of proportion on this site by a few posters.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by madrasahs

It's raining , so here goes: {snip}
Offshore boaters would still be happy if Lake Winnipesaukee was a mix of saltwater and ethylene glycol -- especially if that mixture caused those boats to gain 4 MPH.

Or to be more discerning, the way the messenger puts out his message (for me anyway). The snippet above is 1 example of the emotional drivel* you put forth to prop up your positions. Do you really think insulting all "offshore" operators is necessary ? Another is the cherry picking you do when finding boating accidents, presumably to show how bad the "bad boats" are. I just googled boating + accident and picked the 1'st 5 reports that listed boat size and were non-commercial. Here they are with boat size listed in () ;
http://www.kptv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1936820 (18' aluminum)

http://www.kxly.com/common/getStory.asp?id=37765 (22' )

http://www.baxterbulletin.com/news/updates/7166.html (18 ')

http://www.rbbi.com/folders/acc/lisland/lisland.htm (18')

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?n...d=455823&rfi=6 (16')

Not a 1 was an "offshore" nor "over-sized". Nor did you comment on the child that was killed when she fell out of her bowrider (too small a boat for your attention ?) although you did try to infer that the waves mentioned in 2 other accidents came from "too large" vessels (any evidence to support this ? Could be this is why the newspaper didn't state it as such). I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds this selective editting of accident reports as enlightening and as fair as the political ads we'll see on TV this year*. Don't get me wrong, I certainly support your "right" (wrong word but you get my meaning) to express your viewpoints, even when I disagree, but expect some arguments when your unbalanced claptrap* pegs somebodys BS meter.

With regard to this incident, we only have Sculpin's report of the happenings. I believe sharp turns, powering up & down and agressive were the key words. Since I have no idea of how close he was to other boaters, what the people in his boat were told, how fast he was actually going or his level of experience - I can't say he was reckless (from hyperdictionary: Inattentive to duty; careless; neglectful; indifferent.) as has been bandied about. He might well have been or maybe he just let his driving exceed his capabilities. Incompetence seems proven, reckless yet to come, perhaps.

As you mentioned above, it does seem possible that this may be another case of stepped hull hook-n-snag, as it appears last years flip was. So is this the boat or the driver ? I know your answer but I wonder if someone were to spin a vintage 911 (I think you have some experience with these) whilst cornering would you say this was the car or the driver ? Oh wait I recall your answer from last year from a similar discussion; the car is the driver as well. Silly me*. The rest of us go about thinking we're responsible for our actions, not trying to find fault with the devices we're operating. How very Old-Winni style of us*.

Lastly I would agree w/MAXUM (though I have less condemnation) in that I don't have much sympathy for the person at the helm. While I'm glad to hear nobody was hurt, it certainly seems he was testing the limits and found his.

*so how do you like my emotional, provocative, shoot from the lip style ? I could have phrased things differently, and still expressed the same views, but I wanted to make a point. Hope I did. I now return to my normal posting style.

[Tyler]

Thank you.

[Nellie]

I heard from a family friend who is an acquaintance of the people in the accident and apparently it was a mechanical error in the steering.

[NonVoting Taxpayer]

Of course it's mechanical, otherwise Insurance or warranty work wouldn't cover the costs of fixing it. From the eyewitness accounts, it may have been mechanical, but it was brought on by stupidity on the part of the driver.

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Or to be more discerning, the way the messenger puts out his message (for me anyway). The snippet above is 1 example of the emotional drivel* you put forth to prop up your positions.

True. I deleted my original reply that Belmont Resident (BR) would be happy on ANY lake, whereas I view the recent appearance of Big Boats and Offshores as an affront to those of us who continue to own the very same "unworthy" small boats as decades ago on Winnipesaukee.

BR advocates that I (we) should "Buy a bigger boat". A bit arrogant, don't you think?

OK, I jazzed it up with ethylene glycol. Big deal.

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Another is the cherry picking you do when finding boating accidents, presumably to show how bad the "bad boats" are. I just googled boating + accident...

No kidding, Sherlock! Oops, I mean "Worthy Adversary".

Try boating + accident + tragedy. Otherwise you'll cherry-pick reports of boaters falling within their own boats -- a very common injury (-- likely caused by "Waves").

Collision works with Google too; but it, too, cherry-picks by eliminating boating accidents by those who fall overboard while peeing.

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

"...although you did try to infer that the waves mentioned in 2 other accidents came from "too large" vessels (any evidence to support this ? Could be this is why the newspaper didn't state it as such).

No evidence: we're both mature enough to know that newpapers that sell "Big Boat" advertisements also have editors who are compelled to change a good reporter's "suspect wake" to "just waves, folks, move along...".

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

I certainly support your "right"...to express your viewpoints, even when I disagree, but expect some arguments when your unbalanced claptrap* pegs somebodys BS meter.

For the last three years of viewing this Forum, I recall three Offshore "incidents" -- one fatal. Not all make the newspapers, either -- a problem when trying to access back pages without paying $2 for the report.

There have been other fatal Offshore incidents -- and not just with stepped hulls -- on Winnipesaukee. For some reason, they seem to be taking place near me -- which I take to heart! The nearest Offshore fatality involved an experienced operator who omitted a key safety practice.

Sculpin was close enough to have become a victim had the same Offshore ommission occurred six days ago.

A bit too frequent an occurrence for the ~300 Offshores (and growing) on Winnipesaukee!

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

With regard to this incident, we only have Sculpin's report of the happenings...He might well have been or maybe he just let his driving exceed his capabilities. Incompetence seems proven, reckless yet to come, perhaps.

True. Eye-witness accounts are always suspect. These cases should appear in a Court of Law, where The Truth always comes out.

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

but I wonder if someone were to spin a vintage 911 (I think you have some experience with these) whilst cornering would you say this was the car or the driver ?

True, but I don't have experience spinning 911s, though I have much track-time in them. The secret to driving the original 911s, 356s, the original Mini-Coopers, and VW Beetles (the worst, as these would roll over before spinning) is "never to lift your foot in a turn".

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

...I recall your answer from last year from a similar discussion; [The Car is the Driver].

Still true today.

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

The rest of us go about thinking we're responsible for our actions, not trying to find fault with the devices we're operating.

Key Word: "Thinking".

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Lastly I would agree w/MAXUM (though I have less condemnation) in that I don't have much sympathy for the person at the helm.

No argument there.

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

*so how do you like my emotional, provocative, shoot from the lip style ? I could have phrased things differently, and still expressed the same views, but I wanted to make a point. Hope I did. I now return to my normal posting style.

I LIKED it!

[PROPELLER]

There is one simple solution to your numerous complaints. Move to another lake. There are plenty of beautiful lakes in northern NH, Maine or the Adirondacks in NY that maybe to your liking.

Are you the reincarnation of I.R. from the old Forum format? Your ramblings look very similar.

[Skip]

Ah,

The annual off-shore debate.

As they say, perception equals reality and nowhere is that adage more true than with a handful of prolific winni posters.

Mee-n-Mac, you hit the nail right on the head.

But let's let the facts get in the way of the bashing for a moment, because the actual accident statistics are readily available to anyone willing to take a few moments to research this issue.

The most relevant data to this debate is the annual boating accident statistics kept by the United State Coast Guard. The 44th annual report, covering 2002, is the most current available data.

Here are some pretty interesting statistics;

In 2002, 750 people died across the country in recreational boating accidents.

Of those 750 deaths, nearly half (331) died in accidents involving boats of less than 16 fet in length.

290 people died in boats from 16 to 26 feet in length.

In boats of 26 to 40 feet in length (the most popular size of the constantly assailed cigarette style boats bashed on this site) only 37 deaths occured. That's less than 5% of all reported fatalities!

92 more people died in boats 40 foot or greater.

As you can see, 621 of the 750 reported deaths (83%) occured in boats of less than 26 feet.

Perhaps that is why so much attention is spent on this size craft (26 foot and below)by law enforcement agencies nationwide. It also confirms reports from experienced law enforcement personnel that while larger off-shore type boats by their own size draw particular attention to themselves, it is the smaller family style runabouts, canoes, kayaks, jet skis and the likes that need the most attention.

It also explains the preference of news organizations to uplay an overturned off-shore boat (makes a great background for the anchorperson). I mean, what's the newsworthiness in a picture of an overturned row-boat or 17 foot skiff?

Anyway, I have a wealth of additional statistical data that debunks many of the myths posted about off-shores here....be glad to share it with anyone interested, just drop me a line. I won't clutter the site with mundane data as I am fairly sure most people's minds are pretty well set on this subject.

Be safe, and enjoy the nice weekend coming up again...

Skip

p.s. - don't own an off-shore, never have. I'm stuck in that "dangerous" 26 foot and below category.

[CMG]

Originally Posted by Skip

Ah,
Here are some pretty interesting statistics;

In 2002, 750 people died across the country in recreational boating accidents.

Of those 750 deaths, nearly half (331) died in accidents involving boats of less than 16 fet in length.

290 people died in boats from 16 to 26 feet in length.

In boats of 26 to 40 feet in length (the most popular size of the constantly assailed cigarette style boats bashed on this site) only 37 deaths occured. That's less than 5% of all reported fatalities!

92 more people died in boats 40 foot or greater.

As you can see, 621 of the 750 reported deaths (83%) occured in boats of less than 26 feet.

Perhaps that is why so much attention is spent on this size craft (26 foot and below)by law enforcement agencies nationwide. It also confirms reports from experienced law enforcement personnel that while larger off-shore type boats by their own size draw particular attention to themselves, it is the smaller family style runabouts, canoes, kayaks, jet skis and the likes that need the most attention..............
Skip

p.s. - don't own an off-shore, never have. I'm stuck in that "dangerous" 26 foot and below category.

Please let me save the Nancys some time;


Oh ya - well I bet the smaller boats were caught in the wakes of, run over by, distracted by, frightened by, an out of control OFFSHORE BOAT.
ya, thats it.

[PaulS]

It's not surprising the most of the accidents occur in boats < 26 feet, there are more of those boats in use. The statistic that would be more meaningful would be accidents per # of boats of a class. If there are 1,000,000 boats < 26 feet and 100 accidents, but 10,000 off-shores, with 25 accidents, then off shores would be more dangerous. I'm not saying that's the case, but the statistics presented don't in and of themselves prove the point that off-shores are safer or more dangerous.

[MAXUM]

Skip while I appreciate your data the numbers really are not a fair comparison. Let me explain why. We are breaking down the total number of accidents based on the size of boats involved. However that does not take under consideration how many of each size are actaully owned and on the water. I would venture to say that the number of accidents involving smaller boats would be high overall because there's far more of them out there than the bigger boats. OK let me put it another way, just about any average Joe pretty much could afford a boat or 20' or less, but a very small number of Joes can afford to drop 100K+ on a recreational toy. Most performance boats cost at least that much which greatly reduces the total number of them out there in use compared to a family runabout type.

That is like saying that driving an economy car versus driving a luxury car makes you more likely to get into an accident. Well no- it just means that there are more economy cars on the road therefore the odds are in favor of more accidents involving economy cars.

What should be used to report these numbers would be to compare the number of accidents in percentage based on the classification. IE what percentage of that class were involved in accidents.

To your stated statics:

Of those 750 deaths, nearly half (331) died in accidents involving boats of less than 16 feet in length

I bet you that most in that class were jetskis. I conclude this by making a simple observation. It'd be pretty tough to kill yourself in a boat this small unless it was a jetski. Common, what else falls in this category, a canoe, kayak, blow up boat, skiff, sunfish?

I'm not bashing neither jetskis nor off shore racers here, just trying to state a neutral point based on your data regardless of my own personal feelings on the matter.

[PROPELLER]

As a matter of fact, it could be canoes or skiffs, small aluminum fishing boats etc, Not Jetskis because many of those deaths maybe from tipping over and not wearing a life vest. This is very common in canoes. This happened to a police officer on Winnisquam this past spring, I believe.

[Skip]

Gentlemen,

Please go back and reread my post.

We all actually agree......

I just presented the numbers, I didn't draw any conclusions.

And you are right, there is obviously more boats in the under 26' class.

But the simple fact is only a handful of deaths occured in the 26 to 40 foot class. This class not only includes off-shores, but fishing boats, large bow riders, etc. So, the actual number of off-shore boat fatalities is even less than the 37 quoted. And this reporting area covers the entire United States & all associated Territories!

You have a much better chance of dying (or being injured) by slipping in a bath tub, being bit by a poisonous spider hiding in your grapes, or having a stroke after reading an internet posting than you do being killed by an errant off-shore.

Again, I have further statistics regarding injuries, losses adjusted for specific boat type & numbers, accidents cross related to boater education..ad nauseum!

The only point I was trying to make here is that a myriad of overwhelming statistical data contradict some (the operative word here is "some") of the outrageous claims being attributed to a single class of boat being operated on the Lake.

The data also shows that lack of formal boater training is a mitigating factor in many of the under 26 foot accidents.

And finally, the greatest contributing factor (neck & neck with operator inattention/negligence)to all accidents regardless of class type or size?

Alcohol.....

So what common thread is there throughout the myriad of statistics that can be researched?

Equipment type/failure plays a minimal role in accidents.

As has been pointed out numerous times by a variety of other posters, it doesn't matter what type of boat it is, it is the operator (in almost all cases reported) that makes the difference.

Anyway, if you want to know a particular stat please drop me an e-mail or a private note, I'll be glad to supply you with a quote and source....

Skip

[Skip]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

To your stated statics:

Of those 750 deaths, nearly half (331) died in accidents involving boats of less than 16 feet in length

I bet you that most in that class were jetskis. I conclude this by making a simple observation. It'd be pretty tough to kill yourself in a boat this small unless it was a jetski. Common, what else falls in this category, a canoe, kayak, blow up boat, skiff, sunfish?

I'm not bashing neither jetskis nor off shore racers here, just trying to state a neutral point based on your data regardless of my own personal feelings on the matter.

Tried to send you a private note & e-mail, no luck.

Good point, but another perception that does not meet the reality check.

In the under 16 foot class, of the 331 people who perished only 71 (or roughly 20%) were involving jet skis.

And since 1996 overall jet-ski accidents have been in a downward trend nationwide!

80% of those who died were operating what you guessed...skiffs, small sailboats, rowboats kayaks etc. And a great many of those who died in these smaller craft had no formal boating education.

As a matter of fact, 80% of the operators involved in fatal collisions have not attneded boating training!

Anyway, let's all be safe this summer and not become a statistic ourselves!

Thanks for taking the time to read & respond....

Skip

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Skip while I appreciate your data the numbers really are not a fair comparison. Let me explain why. We are breaking down the total number of accidents based on the size of boats involved. However that does not take under consideration how many of each size are actaully owned and on the water. I would venture to say that the number of accidents involving smaller boats would be high overall because there's far more of them out there than the bigger boats. {snip} What should be used to report these numbers would be to compare the number of accidents in percentage based on the classification. IE what percentage of that class were involved in accidents.

To your stated statics:

Of those 750 deaths, nearly half (331) died in accidents involving boats of less than 16 feet in length

I bet you that most in that class were jetskis. I conclude this by making a simple observation. It'd be pretty tough to kill yourself in a boat this small unless it was a jetski. Common, what else falls in this category, a canoe, kayak, blow up boat, skiff, sunfish?

I'm not bashing neither jetskis nor off shore racers here, just trying to state a neutral point based on your data regardless of my own personal feelings on the matter.

I guess you have to ask what's the concern here. Me (and I'd opine a lot of other people) aren't overly worried when some fool goes off and hurts or kills himself in whatever boat they're operating. Live and let die I might say. I'm more concerned about the fool who operates his/her boat in such a manner so as to hurt me. When viewed in this manner I think the majority of boats and the stats which apply to them are relevant. I suspect that %-wise there are as many idiots at the helm of "offshores" as say ... the typical bowrider ... but given there are sooo many more bowriders, it's the bowriders I'd worry about.

The point I was trying to make above was that Madrahsahs has an opinion that "offshores" (among other boats) are not "proper" for the lake. This is all well and good and he's not alone in this opinion. I'm not sure exactly why he thinks this but to support this opinion he drags up every instance of an accident involving said boats when he can. If accidents in and of themselves are one of the driving reasons that "offshores" aren't "appropriate" for the lake then why does that rationale not apply to other boat types when they are involved in accidents ? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. There may be valid reasons to dislike "offshores" (noise is 1 point I'd agree with but it's not limited to "offshores") and these can be rationally debated. It's the juvenile mud slinging that irks me.

I would also like people to ask themselves this question ... what if magically all the "offshores" disappeared overnight. What's the lake like tomorrow ? Would it be all that much different ? Would Capt B suddenly disappear from the lake ? Would you be able to get a slip in Meredith or Wolfeboro at noontime Sat ? Would you be able to boat back July 4'th night from the fireworks with nary a concern ? Let's say a ban on such boats where enacted (perhaps phased in over many years). Do you think the boats replacing the "offshores" would be significantly different other than in size ? Does a 22' - 24' performance boat worry people ? Me, I'm more concerned about the ever increasing number of boats on the lake, and the ills they bring, than the relatively few "large" boats.


ps - I think people falling out of boats and drowning* is the most frequent cause of death so I doubt PWCs lead this stat. Last time I bothered to check, the boat type most frequented in collisions were PWCs, usually with another PWC. This doesn't concern me at all. I just don't get excited if 2 or 3 guys out there riding together want to play games with each other and end up exceeding their collective skill level, hurting 1 or more in the process. I just must be lacking in compassion I guess.

pps - On this note, anybody got any thoughts on the CG pushing for mandatory wearing of PFDs by anyone in a <20' (might have been different LOA) boat ?

[John A. Birdsall]

I did realize the law and the requirements for boating and the responsibility of the person driving. I am way before 1973....I started coming to the lake in the mid 50's... and took the course in 2002.

I am not against anyone owning or legally driving a boat. I only pointed out that there are those that do not follow what they had to have studied in the boating safety course. There are those that will always do what they want even if it endangers others including their passengers.

I am not against off shore boats or their owners either. It is just not the type of boating I enjoy.

We all share the precious resource of Lake Winnipesaukee and we should keep it safe for everyone. It is a privilege not a right!

It seems to me that any boating instruction prior to granting a license would only make sense. You can go over the internet and get a license if you can pass the test. How many got that with the help of someone sitting beside them while taking it.

When I was in Jr. High school my father, my brother and I all took a coast guard boating coarse it lasted perhaps three months and their was homework. Most enjoyable homework that I ever had.

[Mee-n-Mac]

the following in regards to Sculpin's account of the event

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

With regard to this incident, we only have Sculpin's report of the happenings...{snip}

Originally Posted by madrasahs

True. Eye-witness accounts are always suspect. These cases should appear in a Court of Law, where The Truth always comes out.

I'm not sure of your point here, other than the courts aren't perfect (wow, really, do tell) My point was that I can't get a good visualization of the events from what Sculpin said. I was not inferring anything re: the veracity of his observations. I would ask people to recall the flap about the MP wringing out their new boat last year.

Originally Posted by madrasahs

True, but I don't have experience spinning 911s, though I have much track-time in them. The secret to driving the original 911s, 356s, the original Mini-Coopers, and VW Beetles (the worst, as these would roll over before spinning) is "never to lift your foot in a turn".

Add CRXs, Corvairs and MR2s to your list. Slow in, fast out is good advice. But the question remains ... for a car as legendary for spins as the 911, is it the car or the driver ? Seems from your experience it must be the driver. How could this be ?

[Mee-n-Mac]

Sorry Skip and Maxum, I didn't see the prior posts prior to my posting. Got them "below current level" blues. Skip did a better job than I why I see accidents as they pertain to "offshores" as much ado about nothing.

[Sculpin]

a lot has happened on this topic since i posted my eye witness account, i wish i had the amount of time some of you folks have to "rip it up" here with one another. anyhow, to answer someones question, I was the closet boat to the "stuntman". I was about 200 yards away, we were both in the middle of the broads, i was going 2.2 mph in about 105 feet of water, with two deep water trolling lines behind me, my only concern watching stunt boy was that he would come behind my boat and disrupt my lines (he never got that chance though). nobody else was near the boat while he was zooming around lefts and rights. In my opinion, he was testing the turn limits of the boat, and i guess its possible when adding cyntrificle stress to the outdrives, something went wrong.

after he flipped, i briefly thought about cranking them lines in, but before i could even get one out of the rod holder I noticed 2 other power boats heading his way, so i continued trolling and before i could sit down my lead core started ripping off, (6 colors deep, orange topgun, for those who care). landed a nice tough 15" salmon.

I have been on this lake for 38 years. I have seen morons in canoes, kayuks, bowriders, jetski's, sailboats, tubes, rafts and ski's.....i assure you people, the mecahnical devices are not to blame for chaos, it is the human being that is behind it, and this can hold true with most anything in our world.

for any of you that want to see the beauty of this lake in the summertime, get up at 4 am and go salmon fishing before the crowds head out, its a wonderfull place to be as the sun comes up. although last saturday wont be my last 5 pm fishing trip.....you got to be out there in the crowds to witness this stuff, the "comedy" just seems to write itself !

everyone, have a safe and fun weekend!
Sculpin

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by Skip

We all actually agree......

I'm BAAa-ck!

Originally Posted by Skip

80% of those who died were operating what you guessed: skiffs, small sailboats, rowboats kayaks etc...And a great many of those who died in these smaller craft had no formal boating education...80% of the operators involved in fatal collisions have not attneded boating training!

In New Hampshire, boaters (skiffs, small sailboats, rowboats kayaks etc.) with fewer than 25 HP are not required to take formal boating training.

Originally Posted by Mee&Mac

I'm more concerned about the fool who operates his/her boat in such a manner so as to hurt me.

At last, somebody approaches the crux of the matter.

Originally Posted by Mee&Mac

When viewed in this manner I think the majority of boats and the stats which apply to them are relevant.

Oh well, he's veered off...again.


Listen, the only stat that counts is boating Manslaughters.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by madrasahs

I'm BAAa-ck!

I'm sorry, I must have blinked. And you left, when?

Originally Posted by madrasahs

In New Hampshire, boaters (skiffs, small sailboats, rowboats kayaks etc.) with fewer than 25 HP are not required to take formal boating training.

And yet many more people die each year simply crossing the street or taking a bath. Perhaps we should have mandatory government regulated training for these activities also?

Perhaps, in your ample spare time, you could dig us up some stats on the perils of a regular shower stall versus a dangerous six foot porcelain tub....

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Mee'n'Mac

I'm more concerned about the fool who operates his/her boat in such a manner so as to hurt me.

Originally Posted by madrasahs

At last, somebody approaches the crux of the matter.

{snip}

Originally Posted by madrasahs

Listen, the only stat that counts is boating Manslaughters.

Hmmm, how very interesting that you should say so. Given this viewpoint what's with your agitation over this accident ... or last year's flip ? or the one in Missouri ?? If your argument is that said "offshore" powerboats are killers by design then I'd think you'd have sufficient evidence of such w/o dragging in non-relevant data points. I've always considered appealing to people's emotions rather than to their intellect to be a sign of a weak argument.

I think the stats cited above speak to how much concern is warranted to the "offshore" problem. IF safe boating were the sole concern, I'd really expect you to be pushing for the return of Prohibition.

[Belmont Resident]

You are 100% wrong. He stated that he had a mechanical failure to the MP.
I know someone who was talking with the MP and asked about that accident since there were no reports of it on the news. The MP inspected that whole boat and found no mechanical failure. I hope with the citation it means the insurance company can deny coverage for damages incurred due to negligence. I’m glad the passenger was not hurt.

[CMG]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

I hope with the citation it means the insurance company can deny coverage for damages incurred due to negligence. I’m glad the passenger was not hurt.

Hate to rain on your parade, they have pay to and will.

[MAXUM]

Now that does bring up a rather interesting question from the standpoint of insurance coverage and in a case like this whether or not they would cover the cost of damage/loss.

[ITD]

do not understand fractions........ or statistics.

Lighten up people.

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by Mee'n'Mac

Given this viewpoint what's with your agitation over this accident ... or last year's flip ? or the one in Missouri ??...If your argument is that "offshore" powerboats are killers by design then I'd think you'd have sufficient evidence...

These accidents indicate risk-taking personalities. That's fine in sky-diving, diving, shark-petting, snowmobile skimming, snake-charming, lion-taming, box-comb jellyfish collecting, venomous snake photography, mountain climbing, bullfighting, tarantula training, and auto racing -- on a closed track.

But these Offshores take too much of the lake from us -- we who are absorbed with family boating, or sailing, or rafting, or "just drifting" -- Risk-Averse behavior.

What do you ask yourself when one of these things turns into your cove entry and guns the throttles, closing in at a mile-a-minute or, likely even faster?..."Using-up the lake" at a rate of an acre every few seconds*?

Is he sober? Drugged**? Distracted? Cellphone-using? Cellphone ringing? Adjusting his trim? Turnout? Got a sticky throttle? Is he in litigation? A divorce? Having a "bad carb moment"? Is the owner at the helm? Or his girlfriend? Is he looking at you? Or at the scenery? At the beer supply? At the gas supply? Did he just drop his sandwich? His cigar? Can he see over his own bow? Does he call you a "speed bump"? Does he have his safety equipment disengaged? Is he even competant?

None of things matter in the Open Ocean -- where Offshores originated. He risks no innocents...offshore.

Originally Posted by Mean-Mac

I've always considered appealing to people's emotions rather than to their intellect to be a sign of a weak argument.

"Killer Offshores"? A "Killer Offshores" term would be appealing to Emotion...

Prepare to engage your Intellect: They have killed -- and do kill -- and are killing.

Originally Posted by Mean-Mac

I think the stats cited above speak to how much concern is warranted to the "offshore" problem.

We disagree: Concern was warrented on August 12th, 2002, and too many other occasions before and since.

Maybe Skip is pulling up those numbers now -- the number of I/O-Manslaughter cases versus the Offshore-Manslaughter cases.

Heck, I've got three Offshore-Manslaughter cases from last season alone. All three involve fleeing the scene -- interesting behavior for risk-taking personalities, eh?

No more "Gun" -- No more "Top Gun" -- if they're caught.

Originally Posted by Mee'n'Mac

IF safe boating were the sole concern, I'd really expect you to be pushing for the return of Prohibition

I'm not a fan of drinking while sky-diving, diving, shark-petting, snowmobile skimming, snake-charming, lion-taming, box-comb-jellyfish collecting, venous snake photography, mountain climbing, bullfighting, tarantula training, and auto racing -- on a closed track.

Or boating.

[Coastal Laker]

Originally Posted by madrasahs

None of things matter in the Open Ocean -- where Offshores originated. He risks no innocents...offshore.

I suppose you don't get out into the "open ocean" much. There's a lot of boats out there too... everything from 10' aluminums to supertankers. Even at 25 miles out you can find small center consoles doing some fishing.

Perhaps you feel "Offshore" begins at 50+ miles... or perhaps Europe. Granted the further out you go, the fewer the boats you see, however, I personally have met individuals who sail around the world in boats under 30 feet. Are these not "innocents" as well?

[CMG]

This just came up on other sight I belong to. another reckless ski boat.



Another idiot on the river

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My buddy and I were running the Mississippi River (both in powerquest boats 29 and 26 respectfully) between Trempealeau and LaCrosse and ran into an unfortunate event. We pulled off the main channel and headed to my parent’s cabin (I think it’s year 18 this summer) to show them my buddies new boat. This stretch of water is dominated by open bow boats and ski boats, sand beaches on the end and right side of channel and houses along the left side. We were only running about 40 mph when we rounded the corner and started heading to the cabin. There were plenty of boats hanging out on the beach and NO tow activity in the channel (skiing, tubing etc). As we passed the island people were waving and everything seemed normal. I pulled into our dock first and started pulling lines to secure the boat. My buddy was roughly 100 yards behind me waiting to raft up. Next thing I know some **** (teal colored mastercraft) comes flying directly at the boats just about ramming into the side of my buddy , he turns quickly spraying his wake up and into the cockpit of the boat, circles out front of the dock and comes back telling us to **** at the top of his lungs. Needless to say we are both dumbfounded by this behavior. We see that he is now heading back to the beach and figure all is well, just another drunk on the water! About 10 minutes goes by and this guy comes back, this time with a passenger and pulling two kids on a tub. He is swerving all over the channel giving the kids a fun ride and creating a lot of waves for the docks. He circles in front of our dock pulling multiple figure eights and ****. Docks are bouncing everywhere and the boats are just rockin’. At this point I’m **** enough to get back in my boat and have a few words with this guy (he would not power down and come over to the dock to talk). We motor to the middle of the channel and flag him down. This guy starts yelling at me to slow down while going by the island while yelling every swear word in the book. What kind of example is he setting for his kids? Keep in mind this is he same **** that was just going at least 40-50 mph trying to run into us and now he wants to pick a fight with his kids on a tub behind him? What kind of example is this clown setting for his kids? After we exchange pleasant-tries , the only thing this guy would scream to me was ****. He now decides to take off again with his kids, this time whipping them on the tube right into the bow of my buddies boat (almost). He saw it coming, through it in reverse, jumped on the throttles and the kids missed by less than a foot otherwise they would have nailed him. I radioed for the sheriff and DNR, however they were not in that pool in order to help us out. I contacted my sister-in-law who also runs that stretch of water and she informed me that this individual thinks he owns the island basicly, he’s the chief **** of the area.

Sorry this got so long winded I just needed to vent my frustration due to the lack of control, respect this guy has for the river and the people around him. He is lucky no one got killed during his drunkin’ stuper.

If you run this stretch of the river keep your eyes open, this guy is a loose cannon.

[madrasahs]

http://www.rbbi.com/folders/acc/ftla...ud2.htm#msnbc1

Probably wouldn't have heard of this, but I was as close to this one as I was to Littlefield's Big Winnipesaukee Adventure -- (less than 15 miles).

[Long account: it's more interesting further down the page.]

Most telling is this quote:
"Marina owner Robert O. Cox says he's against any quick-fix regulations."

[pm203]

The majority of performance boaters are courteous,law abiding proffessional people whom are not to blame.Most of us treat our boats and equipment very seriously.One inexperienced or foolish drunk boater does not mean that we all are like that.When you get a 1200 horsepower 40 foot boat on plane,you better be focused and paying full attentionto what you are doing and the majority of us do.Almost every performance boater I know feels the same way and goes out of their way to be extra cautious and courteous.We dont do high speed runs in congested areas,and do our best to follow the rules of the lake.
All this bashing of these boats by one **** individual is getting old.He keeps referring to them as offshores.Keep posting the grim details from an alcohol related accident in fla. years ago. All you do is try to support your **** opinions with inconsistent data ****. Performance boats are here to stay.They are getting lighter,faster and I know this makes you happy,more fuel-efficient.Lets concentrate on educating EVERYONE to the rules of the lake and move on.Enough is enough.

[Mr. V]

"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

----- Lord Acton

As boats and cars get bigger, longer and higher powered the pilot gets left behind in the development equation.

Add alcohol to the mix, or a lapse in judgment due to stress, and BAM.

Which is not to say people shouldn't follow their dream and have high powered boats; I bought a Donzi 18" Classic from its owner on Winnipesaukee and had it shipped west where I restored and enjoyed it for a couple of years without accident or incident.

The missing part of the equation: personal responsibility.

[Mee-n-Mac]

I wasn’t going to bother to reply because I’m now at the point of repeating myself but I thought this year’s “off-shore” debate deserves a summary (for the 3 or 4 left reading). So here’s my final rebuttal, summary and, forgive me gentle forum readers, a self indulgence.

Originally Posted by madrasahs

These accidents indicate risk-taking personalities. That's fine in sky-diving, diving, shark-petting, snowmobile skimming, snake-charming, lion-taming, box-comb jellyfish collecting, venomous snake photography, mountain climbing, bullfighting, tarantula training, and auto racing -- on a closed track.

Careful here, you’re sounding like the person at the helm has some bearing on the issue. You’re forgetting your mantra – “It’s the boat not the driver”. But more seriously don’t you think there are other boaters who have the same risk-taking personality but lack the $$ to afford an “off-shore” ? Aren’t you worried about the more numerous, less well healed misusing their “lake-sized” speedboats ? Is this really a speed issue disguished as an “off-shore” issue for you?

Originally Posted by madrasahs

But these Offshores take too much of the lake from us -- we who are absorbed with family boating, or sailing, or rafting, or "just drifting" -- Risk-Averse behavior.

What do you ask yourself when one of these things turns into your cove entry and guns the throttles, closing in at a mile-a-minute or, likely even faster?..."Using-up the lake" at a rate of an acre every few seconds*?

Is he sober? Drugged**? Distracted? Cellphone-using? Cellphone ringing? Adjusting his trim? Turnout? Got a sticky throttle? Is he in litigation? A divorce? Having a "bad carb moment"? Is the owner at the helm? Or his girlfriend? Is he looking at you? Or at the scenery? At the beer supply? At the gas supply? Did he just drop his sandwich? His cigar? Can he see over his own bow? Does he call you a "speed bump"? Does he have his safety equipment disengaged? Is he even competant?

These are all fine questions. Questions that could be asked about anyone piloting the many non-“off-shores” that are on the lake. Unless you don’t think that these boats (to use your reasoning) don’t or can’t kill. If that’s the case I have some links which I’ll present below, ‘Madrasah style’, for your edutainment. Are these "lake sized" boats incapable of a “lunatic mishap” ? Did these boats sing some siren song of mayhem or is that music reserved solely for “off-shores” ?? Are these the results of risk taking personality change caused by the boat ???

Originally Posted by madrasahs

Prepare to engage your Intellect: They have killed -- and do kill -- and are killing.

OK Cap’t Picard, I’m engaged. The power of that statement all by itself convinces me – not. Honestly this is where I don’t understand you but, just for the moment, let’s say that if a boat is involved in a collision with another boat, that it’s somehow a result of the boat’s intrinsics and not driver behavior. If the boat type is too blame for the accident then all I request is that this same “logic” be applied to all boats. Then sure the “off-shores” kill but what then do I make of these… ?

http://abc26.trb.com/wgno-boatfatal0...ll=wgno-home-1 (21’ runs over 18’ flatboat, man + son killed)

http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...t=20&ID=030075 (24’ four winns – 16’, resulting a death and critical injury)

Since you like to drag up old incidents here’s one you’ll appreciate -
http://junior.apk.net/~weberoo/ferry/html/redwreck.html (17 cruiser into ferryboat, 2 dead, 32 injured)

http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...t=40&ID=040042 (bass boat hits bass boat, resulting in a death)

How are these for risky operation -
https://www.piersystem.com/external/...cumentID=23150 (15’ hits 23’)

http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...ct=3&ID=040059 (24’ searay hits 20’ playcraft deckboat which was drfiting)

http://www.uscg.mil/news/D5/Atlantic...5AC_008-02.htm (18’ hits 14’)

http://www.tribnet.com/news/local/st...-5205684c.html (23’ hits 17’)

Even the big cruiser guys aren’t safe from the menacing runabout crowd -
http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...t=40&ID=040035 (22 crownline runabout runs into a silverton)

http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...t=60&ID=010112 (bassboat hits pontoon boat)

http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...ct=3&ID=040019 (17’ bass hits 18’ bass which was drifting)

http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...ct=3&ID=030150 (bassboat hits bassboat)

Boy these bassboat guys are busy -
http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...t=40&ID=020131 (bassboat hits bassboat)

http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...t=40&ID=020122 (20 baja hits bayliner runabout)

This one is for BR
http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...t=80&ID=000098 (sunbird towing tuber hits stingray skiboat which was idling)

http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...=100&ID=000024 (20 imp hits 19 maxum)

http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...=120&ID=980125 (deckboat hits lund which was drifting)

Apparently this guy must have thought he had a big “off-shore”, we’ll give him the overachiever award -
http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...=120&ID=980139 (bassboat hits 80’ excursion boat )

Geesh, a whole new type of dangerous watercraft. Were not even safe on the land -
http://a.www.orlandoweather.com/weat...88/detail.html (airboat hits airboat)

I’ll toss you a bone IR, aahhh, Madrasahs. You and the anti -PWC crowd can argue who gets credit -
http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...ict=&ID=040078 (40’ formula hits PWC which cut in front of the “off-shore”)

I could have listed many more but there’s enough to show that there’s other boats that kill and collide as well. I guess it’s not just the “off-shores” which are risky and/or killers. Perhaps you’ll have to widen your pogrom.

Originally Posted by madrasahs

We disagree: Concern was warrented on August 12th, 2002, and too many other occasions before and since.

For me to understand you’d have to explain how the “offshore-ness” of the boat in this case led to the incident. There were no mile-a-minute speeds or other risk-taking maneuvers involved here. Nothing that couldn’t, hasn’t, happened with a “lesser” boat. Don’t think so, try this story, and see if it sounds familiar.

http://www.lifesaving.com/news/news_articles/news40.htm (19’ Mariah, going 30 mph after dinner and drinks, hits 20’ Bayliner, possibly w/o lights, killing both occupants of the Bayliner plus 2 dead on the “killer Mariah”, police chief claims worst accident damage in 21 years)

So should the boat be blamed? Think you’re safe if the “off-shores” go away ?? Think that smaller boats are safe for the rest of us ???
p.s. - Wasn't it was Aug 11, 2002 around 9:30 pm ?

Originally Posted by madrasahs

Heck, I've got three Offshore-Manslaughter cases from last season alone. All three involve fleeing the scene -- interesting behavior for risk-taking personalities, eh?

I would have said despicable behavior but again you’re sounding like the person, who has the personality, is responsible. Must repeat “boat not driver”, “boat not driver”, do not think, “boat not driver …

Originally Posted by madrasahs

I'm not a fan of drinking while sky-diving, diving, shark-petting, snowmobile skimming, snake-charming, lion-taming, box-comb-jellyfish collecting, venous snake photography, mountain climbing, bullfighting, tarantula training, and auto racing -- on a closed track.
Or boating.

Good, I’d have been very surprised if you were. But if safety were really the “crux” for your diatribes, I'll suggest again you’d have more beneficial effect by removing alcohol from the scene rather than any single boat type. It has a more detrimental effect on safety than the boat type.

Originally Posted by madrasahs

"Killer Offshores"? A "Killer Offshores" term would be appealing to Emotion...

Now where did I get that term ? I know I didn’t invent it. Where o where did I pick it up from. There was this open letter than mentioned “killer-thrillers” and “off-shores” but not the combined term. Oh yeah I remember, it was here...

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=70807

Who is that “IR” guy anyway. Seems to argue using emotion rather than reason.


My summary – it’s the person who’s either capable or not, responsible or not. If he/she is not, then tragedy awaits and is not dependant on boat type. Given the relative numbers of “lake boats” compared to “off-shores”, any “fix” based on boat type won’t even dent the (perceived) safety problem.

Now I do fear we're behind schedule on this year's annual forum rants. I've left my planner at work, can someone please tell me what's next on the list?

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by pm203

The majority of performance boaters are courteous,law abiding proffessional people whom are not to blame.

Here's a "new-new" manslaughter case -- found this morning. (Performance driver left the scene -- again)

"The driver of the second boat, Rush, owner of Rush Performance Boats, left the area on foot and returned to California. His 2 passengers Don Kramer 52, Norco, Ca, and Steve Shoop 44, of Minnesota were not injured. Rush, accompanied by his lawyer, surrendered to La Paz County authorities on Sunday, September 21st and is being held in lieu of 1 million dollars bond. He faces charges of leaving the scene of a fatal boat collision."

"The fourth did die en route, and Grier did flee the scene. At impact he got pitched out over the deck, his friend Don got thrown out also but was not hurt, the other passenger stayed in the boat but got knocked out but was ok afterwards"

I'd give the site, but there is bad language on that "performance boat" forum. (Bad language plus risk-taking practices at another "offshore-only" site). Here's some comments from the "performance-boat" forum:

"That 'thrill the crowd' feeling is NOTHING when lives are at risk."

"You are right that he is a victim also. Its sad to say that all 4 kids died, but accidents do happen."

"Grier is an accomplished (professional) driver that has been active in the racing community for decades. His driving abilities have been well documented throughout his racing career."

"Are they really going to get serious about busting the hot boats?"

"Are any of you guys gonna change the way you act out on the water? (hot passes, engine mods, etc.)"

And on "cleaning up" performance boats -- same site:

"This will pass like always, I've seen this many times before on the river, you get a new [MP] guy that comes in and he's got a big head and he's going to "clean up the river". He don't realize that all this harrassment drives people away and that's bad for business and next thing you know there's all kinds of complaints and he gets tuned down!..Just take a litle time that's all!.."

"When my dad gets in trouble the first place he goes is the ice chest..."

How's that Westlaw boating-Manslaughter case search coming? Seems like "leaving the scene" is the smart approach to performance / Offshore boating "mishaps".

Perhaps they're teaching that now?

[Coastal Laker]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

...
Even the big cruiser guys aren’t safe from the menacing runabout crowd -
http://www.mswp.state.mo.us/news/NRD...t=40&ID=040035 (22 crownline runabout runs into a silverton)...

Ok, call me crazy for reading all that but your humor made my day... thanks! I never really considered myself part of the menacing runabout crowd but I guess if I own one, I must be one of THEM.

[madrasahs]

Anybody notice the responses to this Offshore thread?

4500+ in two weeks -- about the same number, but in half the time as the best "Bike Week" thread. (And there's a lot of bikers).

It also brought in one new poster, and coaxed a "2-post" / "3-post" from a few others.

But now I've finally mastered the photoposting! Woo-hoo!

[Outlaw]

Kuddo's to you Mee-n-Mac - I absolutely loved your last post on this thread. If there is a forum medal your deserve it. And if not - maybe we can come up with something before the big rendezvous on the lake to present to you. Kuddos' my friend - this is excellent !!

[madrasahs]

Looks like the Retrievers-are-worse-than-Pit-Bulls argument wins out?

Say, did the white whatchamacallit boat that started this thread have a pink-and-green "scrambled" logo on the side? I called the MPs on that boat, and I haven't seen it since the photo! (The photo doesn't show the logo, it just shows the pointy-end/nose/nozzle/bow -- whatever).

[pm203]

The boat that started this thread had a blue and grey stripe down the side.

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by pm203

The boat that started this thread had a blue and grey stripe down the side.

The largest Fountain I've ever seen on Winnipesaukee split the difference between my beach chair on shore and a fallen skier, leaving 100 feet for the skier and 100 feet for me -- not much allowed for my dock, though. (At 60 MPH).

There must have been 12 people on board. It had blue and gray stripes, and a four-letter name on the transom.

Is it BA-aack?