Why doesn't Winnipesaukee have real buoys?

bluewater sailor · 09-19-2004, 06:35 AM

The first time I saw a navigational buoy on this lake, I was flabbergasted. Those are just pvc pipes with some red or black paint on them. They are not visible from any distance, which misses the entire premise of a buoy. You should be able to see it from a comfortable distance in order to take action.
Notice on a coastal chart that it indicates how far the buoy is visible and it's usually in miles. And it doesn't appear that much thought went into the place ment of these buoys on Winnipesaukee. For instance, just north of Smith Cove, there is a black buoy which when viewed agains a BLACK background (a stone wall), it can't be seen! And it apparently didn't occur to anyone that with waves more than a foot and a half all of the buoys are awash and can't be seen. In my humble opinion, this is part of the reason motor boaters don't take right of way rules very seriously. It's hard to take the lake seriously because of its laughable buoyage. Why can't the state spend a few dollars and install some cans and nuns that can actually be seen? I don't think they would detract from the beauty of the waterway. Winnipesaukee is truly a great lake and deserves to be treated with more respect, and the bouyage is a good place to start.

Lakegeezer · 09-19-2004, 06:59 AM

Bluewater Sailor, I can't fault you for your complaint. The bouys on the lake today leave something to be desired. In some light conditions they seem to disappear. Those of us that have been on the lake for a while aren't complaining much, because what we have now is SO much better than what we had before. There are still some of old wooden spars around. The whole lake had them not too long ago. the wood tended to soak up water and sink, so in many cases, there was just a few inches of spar above the water. The plastic spars are a huge improvement. I haven't a clue about the politics of lake bouys, but suspect that cost enters into it. The coast guard is not responsible for navigation on the lake as far as I know, so we're dealing with state standards, and frugality. Look at the lake as a challenge. Find every marker your first few times out, and stop if you can't find one. Eventually, you can just feel where there should be a marker. There are many tricky navigation spots on the lake, especially because the color of the bouys change by compass direction, not flow to the sea. In several spots, red is on your right, and 100 yards later, its on your left - just because you have changed direction by a few degrees. Many bouys are far from danger, and others are right on top of it. It is part of the charm of the lake, but in no means an excuse for ignoring the right of way passage laws. Those even apply on a five acre pond.

madrasahs · 09-19-2004, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

..."There are still some of old wooden spars around...so in many cases, there was just a few inches of spar above the water. The plastic spars are a huge improvement...

The wooden spars that "are still around" aren't in heavily trafficked areas -- around here, anyway.

In previous years, we discussed that many of the spars "could take a licking" -- but too many were being broken off at the waterline.

The same seems to be true of the plastic (PVC) ones. The Forum discovered last year that some were "knifed off" by large propellers.
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluewater Sailor

Why can't the state spend a few dollars and install some cans and nuns that can actually be seen?

Hmmm. Iron cans and nuns? We'd certainly find out who to send the bill to, wouldn't we?

Cobalt 25 · 09-19-2004, 08:57 PM

I'm relatively comfortable with the concept of staying to the south and west of reds, etc., but sometimetimes it's damn near impossible to distinguish between red and black. There's gotta be a better alternative than those two colors. I know some purists would shudder to think of lime green or something like that, but there surely must be a better way to distinguish the markers.

Peter

itchin for fishin · 09-19-2004, 09:18 PM

Of course I've got to chime in about the 'new improved' lighted buoy's!
How on earth one is to read the numbers is beyond me. As some say, if you've been on the lake awhile you don't need the numbers but aren't they really designed for the occasional visitor?

Also, I love the multiple huge no wake markers at the Weir's channel...No kidding it's no wake. Why don't they repaint them and place them at the witches? There have been more people who have missed the marked witches than confused the Weirs as no wake.

bluewater sailor · 09-20-2004, 04:32 AM

See, the whole point is that if the buoys were larger you could A. see the colors because there would be a larger surface area of color. B. The numbers would also be able to be larger. As it is, I can't even distinguish the number or color with binoculars from a reasonable (read: safe) distance.
And they needn't be made of iron. Any plastic material will do. It's the size and shape that counts. Surely the state can't be that cheap, particularly in the interst of safety. They seem to spend money on all kinds of other nonsense.

itchin for fishin · 09-20-2004, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluewater sailor

Surely the state can't be that cheap

Bluewater sailor,

You're a newcomer to the area! Welcome!

Rattlesnake Gal · 09-20-2004, 05:59 AM

The markers could definitely use improvement!
For all the reasons stated above. How do we make changes like this happen and can a handful of people actually accomplish it?

KBoater · 09-20-2004, 09:15 AM

Boating both in NH and Fl I have found that the shape of the marker (Diamond and square, can and num) used on the intercostals is very helpful. After staring at the glare on the water for several hours, the color of the markers start to look different. In NH the red and red top can be hard to distinguish

Bubba · 09-20-2004, 01:29 PM

With the number of islands/rocks on the lake, night can be even more hazardous if you don't know your way around. I have had people out during the day and they had no idea where we were. When I take people out at night they are glad I know my way around. Yes, after enough time, you know where a marker should be. The markers would help those who generally don't go on the lake. But I guess it keeps them off the lake at night (other than the bays). And the repair shop busy. Money for the local economy.

KTO · 09-20-2004, 01:45 PM

The thing is, the markers aren't really that bad. . . This isn't an ocean after all!

People without a map anywhere are basically messed. With a map, however, you are much better off. Usually, the markers (buoys whatever!

) are in sight by the time you NEED to see them. There are some tough places to navigate, but with a map you should be all set.

As for the lighted number markers, I think that they are more useful when you know for sure WHAT NUMBER they are, and THEN you look on your map to see where you are. (Unless of course, you are extremely experienced at the lake and know every number). A major plus---THEY LIGHT UP! Extremely helpful at night. How many newbies (excuse the word) that use the lake rarely go out at night. For those of us who have been out at night, you need to basically know where you are. The lights basically show you where to go. When traveling at night, you just need the relative location of where you are!

To finalize--the markers aren't really that bad!

Bubba · 09-20-2004, 01:55 PM

I agree, for there purpose, they are fine. Yes, you should have a map and even a compass. I have had boaters tell me that they don't need any of that because they a using GPS. More Capt B's. If you don't know your way, and haven't tried to learn how to get around, you shouldn't be there. I have actually seen a boat go through the middle of 4 spars (2 black, 2 red) at full speed. How he didn't tear his boat, I don't know. It wasn't that the spars were not visible. He just didn't know or didn't care. (Rules are for those who don't know what they are doing. - Capt B)

Coastal Laker · 09-20-2004, 03:22 PM

Bluewater sailor,
The navaids on Winnipesaukee are not a creation of the State of NH. You can see them here on the US Coast Guard's boating safety web site:

http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/at...ing_system.htm

Note that they expired December 31, 2003 in favor of more a more uniform marking system. I would assume that the lake, being a non-federal system, is not likely to be seeing any changes any time soon. I'm really not certain what direction the state will choose to take.

I myself would favor pitching the black markers for anything more visible. Actually, the red ones can go too. Regardless of what stays, goes, or gets replaced, someone (Likely Capt. B)will still run them over, fail to see them, or fail to properly interpret why they are there.

itchin for fishin · 09-20-2004, 07:36 PM

My point on the numbers on the lights was not as much a nighttime issue as trying to figure out where you are.

When I was a Winni newbie, I had a lot of experience on the Great Lakes but being on Winni, well, it was like being in the woods! All the islands looked the same.(not that the big water didn't all look the same) I depended on the numbers on the buoys as well as my map to keep knowledge of my position. Of course, now is a whole different story and for me personally they work. However, is that their real purpose, to keep the Winnie veterans going or to help the newbies?

You all are making the great point that when you know the lake, you can just sense where the marker should be and we all know how many markers on this lake.

Mee-n-Mac · 09-20-2004, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluewater sailor

The first time I saw a navigational buoy on this lake, I was flabbergasted. Those are just pvc pipes with some red or black paint on them. They are not visible from any distance, which misses the entire premise of a buoy. You should be able to see it from a comfortable distance in order to take action.

{snip}

It's hard to take the lake seriously because of its laughable buoyage. Why can't the state spend a few dollars and install some cans and nuns that can actually be seen? I don't think they would detract from the beauty of the waterway. Winnipesaukee is truly a great lake and deserves to be treated with more respect, and the bouyage is a good place to start.

You'll get little argument that something better could be done and IMHO, w/o that much additional cost. I would advise against the normal cans and nuns as the inland needs are perhaps too different and people coming from the ocean would be understandably confused by bouy's that now (on the lake) mean something different (than on the ocean). That said a different shaped top for each red or black tipped marker would be a definite improvement (larger, easier to differentiate as you mentioned). I can't believe this would cost a lot and these could be added/retrofitted to the existing bouys. Perhaps a higher visibility color would also help but sticking with the same colors would allow changes (and costs) to be phased in.

madrasahs · 09-21-2004, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluewater sailor

It's hard to take the lake seriously because of its laughable buoyage. Why can't the state spend a few dollars and install some cans and nuns that can actually be seen?

I once mistook a "red nun" (caught in a strong shoal rip) for a red lateen sail rig, like one of my sailboats!

Most cans and nuns are made of iron, and would be very reasonable for New Hampshire to purchase for Winnipesaukee; however, that >>>BLANG<<< sound you hear?...is Captain B.

If it's cold, that >>>BLANG<<< will be a snowmobiler.

Your idea has merit, but we always hear it from a newbie -- until they get their "lake legs", that is.

Island-Ho · 09-21-2004, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba

snip >-- I have actually seen a boat go through the middle of 4 spars (2 black, 2 red) at full speed. <-- snip

I must be interpreting your post incorrectly, because I think you know your way around the lake. You are always supposed to pass between the red and black buoys, and they should always appear as a pair. Obviously the white with red or black tops are a whole different story. There you either know your way, or you need a chart and compass. I can show you a few places where you would also pass through the middle of a red top and black top, or between a buoy and the nearby shore. It's not always obvious!

Bubba · 09-22-2004, 02:17 PM

Yes, they were "topped" markers. Specifically, for red, the boat should pass the spar on the south or west side. For black, the boat should pass on the north or east side. If traveling north and a red topped spar is on the west side of your line of travel and a black topped spar is on the east side of your line of travel, if you went between the markers you are putting your vessel and yourself in danger of hitting something. You should go on the "outside" of these markers.

CentreHarborEric · 09-22-2004, 07:43 PM

I am in favor of the current system for the following reasons:

1. they're different from the ocean
2. they take a little experience to get comfortable with-keeps every JoeBagOfDonuts from going out at night overconfident and getting hurt
3. Imagine some places on the lake with larger individual markers (Pistol Is. area, for an example)...I think it would be very cluttered-looking if the markers were two or three times the size of the current size
4. they're charming and quirky
5. if it hurts to hit a wooden or plastic buoy, imagine what it would be like to ding an iron one! Or the cost on the part of the state to replace a larger plastic one after it got hit.

Believe me, I wandered around a bit and spent a lot more time on the lake at night than I had to the first few times I came home from Wolfeboro at night, but I like the system as it is.

bluewater sailor · 09-23-2004, 11:48 PM

The actual material of the buoys is, well, immaterial. What matters is that they be sufficiently visible. They can still conform to the Uniform Inland Waterways Code, with black and white and red and white colors. But simply make them larger. And they needn't be constructed of iron. They could be plastic, or fiberglass. As for the cost, remember, there is an election coming up. This is an excellent time to ask for anything. Particularly something that involves public safety. And what is more concerned with public safety than a well-marked and navigable waterway? The statistics bear out what I'm saying. People hit rocks in that lake with vast regularity.

Rattlesnake Gal · 09-24-2004, 06:18 AM

We are a creative bunch of people. Lets make some new and improved ones and replace them ourselves!

The state would just love that.
There are definitely better options than iron. We could even have them outfitted with sensors, so when someone goes on the wrong side it will alert them. Nothing noisy though, we don’t want to ruffle anyone’s feathers.

09-19-2004, 06:35 AM	#1
bluewater sailor Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Why doesn't Winnipesaukee have real buoys? The first time I saw a navigational buoy on this lake, I was flabbergasted. Those are just pvc pipes with some red or black paint on them. They are not visible from any distance, which misses the entire premise of a buoy. You should be able to see it from a comfortable distance in order to take action. Notice on a coastal chart that it indicates how far the buoy is visible and it's usually in miles. And it doesn't appear that much thought went into the place ment of these buoys on Winnipesaukee. For instance, just north of Smith Cove, there is a black buoy which when viewed agains a BLACK background (a stone wall), it can't be seen! And it apparently didn't occur to anyone that with waves more than a foot and a half all of the buoys are awash and can't be seen. In my humble opinion, this is part of the reason motor boaters don't take right of way rules very seriously. It's hard to take the lake seriously because of its laughable buoyage. Why can't the state spend a few dollars and install some cans and nuns that can actually be seen? I don't think they would detract from the beauty of the waterway. Winnipesaukee is truly a great lake and deserves to be treated with more respect, and the bouyage is a good place to start.

09-19-2004, 06:59 AM	#2
Lakegeezer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 1,657 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 342 Thanked 618 Times in 278 Posts	Better than before Bluewater Sailor, I can't fault you for your complaint. The bouys on the lake today leave something to be desired. In some light conditions they seem to disappear. Those of us that have been on the lake for a while aren't complaining much, because what we have now is SO much better than what we had before. There are still some of old wooden spars around. The whole lake had them not too long ago. the wood tended to soak up water and sink, so in many cases, there was just a few inches of spar above the water. The plastic spars are a huge improvement. I haven't a clue about the politics of lake bouys, but suspect that cost enters into it. The coast guard is not responsible for navigation on the lake as far as I know, so we're dealing with state standards, and frugality. Look at the lake as a challenge. Find every marker your first few times out, and stop if you can't find one. Eventually, you can just feel where there should be a marker. There are many tricky navigation spots on the lake, especially because the color of the bouys change by compass direction, not flow to the sea. In several spots, red is on your right, and 100 yards later, its on your left - just because you have changed direction by a few degrees. Many bouys are far from danger, and others are right on top of it. It is part of the charm of the lake, but in no means an excuse for ignoring the right of way passage laws. Those even apply on a five acre pond. __________________ -lg

09-19-2004, 08:57 PM	#4
Cobalt 25 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cape Cod Posts: 213 Thanks: 219 Thanked 36 Times in 20 Posts	better coloring I'm relatively comfortable with the concept of staying to the south and west of reds, etc., but sometimetimes it's damn near impossible to distinguish between red and black. There's gotta be a better alternative than those two colors. I know some purists would shudder to think of lime green or something like that, but there surely must be a better way to distinguish the markers. Peter

09-19-2004, 09:18 PM	#5
itchin for fishin Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 105 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Better lighted buoys Of course I've got to chime in about the 'new improved' lighted buoy's! How on earth one is to read the numbers is beyond me. As some say, if you've been on the lake awhile you don't need the numbers but aren't they really designed for the occasional visitor? Also, I love the multiple huge no wake markers at the Weir's channel...No kidding it's no wake. Why don't they repaint them and place them at the witches? There have been more people who have missed the marked witches than confused the Weirs as no wake.

09-20-2004, 04:32 AM	#6
bluewater sailor Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	bigger would be better See, the whole point is that if the buoys were larger you could A. see the colors because there would be a larger surface area of color. B. The numbers would also be able to be larger. As it is, I can't even distinguish the number or color with binoculars from a reasonable (read: safe) distance. And they needn't be made of iron. Any plastic material will do. It's the size and shape that counts. Surely the state can't be that cheap, particularly in the interst of safety. They seem to spend money on all kinds of other nonsense.

09-20-2004, 05:59 AM	#8
Rattlesnake Gal Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Central NH Posts: 5,252 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,451 Thanked 1,349 Times in 475 Posts	The markers could definitely use improvement! For all the reasons stated above. How do we make changes like this happen and can a handful of people actually accomplish it?

09-20-2004, 09:15 AM	#9
KBoater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Wolfeboro Posts: 521 Thanks: 10 Thanked 29 Times in 15 Posts	Shape Helps Boating both in NH and Fl I have found that the shape of the marker (Diamond and square, can and num) used on the intercostals is very helpful. After staring at the glare on the water for several hours, the color of the markers start to look different. In NH the red and red top can be hard to distinguish

09-20-2004, 01:29 PM	#10
Bubba Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Merrimack, NH & East Alton, NH Posts: 65 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Day markers are easy. With the number of islands/rocks on the lake, night can be even more hazardous if you don't know your way around. I have had people out during the day and they had no idea where we were. When I take people out at night they are glad I know my way around. Yes, after enough time, you know where a marker should be. The markers would help those who generally don't go on the lake. But I guess it keeps them off the lake at night (other than the bays). And the repair shop busy. Money for the local economy.

09-20-2004, 01:45 PM	#11
KTO Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Meredith, NH Posts: 391 Thanks: 30 Thanked 117 Times in 26 Posts	But. . . The thing is, the markers aren't really that bad. . . This isn't an ocean after all! People without a map anywhere are basically messed. With a map, however, you are much better off. Usually, the markers (buoys whatever! ) are in sight by the time you NEED to see them. There are some tough places to navigate, but with a map you should be all set. As for the lighted number markers, I think that they are more useful when you know for sure WHAT NUMBER they are, and THEN you look on your map to see where you are. (Unless of course, you are extremely experienced at the lake and know every number). A major plus---THEY LIGHT UP! Extremely helpful at night. How many newbies (excuse the word) that use the lake rarely go out at night. For those of us who have been out at night, you need to basically know where you are. The lights basically show you where to go. When traveling at night, you just need the relative location of where you are! To finalize--the markers aren't really that bad!

09-20-2004, 01:55 PM	#12
Bubba Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Merrimack, NH & East Alton, NH Posts: 65 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm happy I agree, for there purpose, they are fine. Yes, you should have a map and even a compass. I have had boaters tell me that they don't need any of that because they a using GPS. More Capt B's. If you don't know your way, and haven't tried to learn how to get around, you shouldn't be there. I have actually seen a boat go through the middle of 4 spars (2 black, 2 red) at full speed. How he didn't tear his boat, I don't know. It wasn't that the spars were not visible. He just didn't know or didn't care. (Rules are for those who don't know what they are doing. - Capt B)

09-20-2004, 03:22 PM	#13
Coastal Laker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: In the Beautiful Lakes Region of course! Posts: 130 Thanks: 1 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Aids to Navigation Bluewater sailor, The navaids on Winnipesaukee are not a creation of the State of NH. You can see them here on the US Coast Guard's boating safety web site: http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/at...ing_system.htm Note that they expired December 31, 2003 in favor of more a more uniform marking system. I would assume that the lake, being a non-federal system, is not likely to be seeing any changes any time soon. I'm really not certain what direction the state will choose to take. I myself would favor pitching the black markers for anything more visible. Actually, the red ones can go too. Regardless of what stays, goes, or gets replaced, someone (Likely Capt. B)will still run them over, fail to see them, or fail to properly interpret why they are there.

09-20-2004, 07:36 PM	#14
itchin for fishin Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 105 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	My point on the numbers on the lights was not as much a nighttime issue as trying to figure out where you are. When I was a Winni newbie, I had a lot of experience on the Great Lakes but being on Winni, well, it was like being in the woods! All the islands looked the same.(not that the big water didn't all look the same) I depended on the numbers on the buoys as well as my map to keep knowledge of my position. Of course, now is a whole different story and for me personally they work. However, is that their real purpose, to keep the Winnie veterans going or to help the newbies? You all are making the great point that when you know the lake, you can just sense where the marker should be and we all know how many markers on this lake.

09-22-2004, 02:17 PM	#18
Bubba Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Merrimack, NH & East Alton, NH Posts: 65 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry for poor description Yes, they were "topped" markers. Specifically, for red, the boat should pass the spar on the south or west side. For black, the boat should pass on the north or east side. If traveling north and a red topped spar is on the west side of your line of travel and a black topped spar is on the east side of your line of travel, if you went between the markers you are putting your vessel and yourself in danger of hitting something. You should go on the "outside" of these markers. Last edited by Bubba; 09-22-2004 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Extrapolate

09-22-2004, 07:43 PM	#19
CentreHarborEric Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 48 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Casting My Vote for the Current System I am in favor of the current system for the following reasons: 1. they're different from the ocean 2. they take a little experience to get comfortable with-keeps every JoeBagOfDonuts from going out at night overconfident and getting hurt 3. Imagine some places on the lake with larger individual markers (Pistol Is. area, for an example)...I think it would be very cluttered-looking if the markers were two or three times the size of the current size 4. they're charming and quirky 5. if it hurts to hit a wooden or plastic buoy, imagine what it would be like to ding an iron one! Or the cost on the part of the state to replace a larger plastic one after it got hit. Believe me, I wandered around a bit and spent a lot more time on the lake at night than I had to the first few times I came home from Wolfeboro at night, but I like the system as it is.

09-23-2004, 11:48 PM	#20
bluewater sailor Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	buoys The actual material of the buoys is, well, immaterial. What matters is that they be sufficiently visible. They can still conform to the Uniform Inland Waterways Code, with black and white and red and white colors. But simply make them larger. And they needn't be constructed of iron. They could be plastic, or fiberglass. As for the cost, remember, there is an election coming up. This is an excellent time to ask for anything. Particularly something that involves public safety. And what is more concerned with public safety than a well-marked and navigable waterway? The statistics bear out what I'm saying. People hit rocks in that lake with vast regularity.

09-24-2004, 06:18 AM	#21
Rattlesnake Gal Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Central NH Posts: 5,252 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,451 Thanked 1,349 Times in 475 Posts	Here's An Idea! We are a creative bunch of people. Lets make some new and improved ones and replace them ourselves! The state would just love that. There are definitely better options than iron. We could even have them outfitted with sensors, so when someone goes on the wrong side it will alert them. Nothing noisy though, we don’t want to ruffle anyone’s feathers.