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Old 12-22-2022, 06:58 AM   #1
TiltonBB
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Default Solar and Lithium Batteries

On Saturday, a Sanbornton house fire was started by lithium batteries. It's enough to make you think twice about having these in your home.

A statement from the fire department, “this phenomenon is known as a 'Thermal Runaway', which is one of the primary risks related to Lithium-ion Batteries.”

According to the statement, the roof of the garage collapsed within two minutes of arrival of the first fire companies. “This we believe is due to the failure of the roof truss system based on the fire load and the weight of the 24 solar panels on the south facing side of the garage roof,” wrote Deputy Chief Scott Taylor.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...ticle-nav-next

Lithium batteries seem to be the common factor in many fires. One third of all car fires in the US are in electric cars although they make up a much smaller percentage of the total number of cars on the road. Hurricane Ian's floodwaters caused at least 11 electric vehicles in Florida to catch fire.

Although electric vehicles continue to improve, I am not sure I would want one in my garage.
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Old 12-22-2022, 07:05 AM   #2
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Hmmm...I have a bag I use to store Li-Po RC batteries lest they catch on fire—I wonder if I should be storing my lithium batteries in one as well?

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Last edited by thinkxingu; 12-22-2022 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 12-22-2022, 07:52 AM   #3
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Good for me I'm too cheap to go with that $59 Hart 20-volt lithium cordless drill, and still use an $18.94 Hyper Tough 18-volt nickel-cadmium cordless drill formerly sold at you-know-where!

The nickel-cadmium cordless drills take a lot longer to charge up.

A 110-volt drill with a plug-in cord works just fine ..... a plug-in drill ....... imagine that ..... and has way more power!
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Old 12-22-2022, 08:30 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by TiltonBB View Post
On Saturday, a Sanbornton house fire was started by lithium batteries. It's enough to make you think twice about having these in your home.

A statement from the fire department, “this phenomenon is known as a 'Thermal Runaway', which is one of the primary risks related to Lithium-ion Batteries.”

According to the statement, the roof of the garage collapsed within two minutes of arrival of the first fire companies. “This we believe is due to the failure of the roof truss system based on the fire load and the weight of the 24 solar panels on the south facing side of the garage roof,” wrote Deputy Chief Scott Taylor.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...ticle-nav-next

Lithium batteries seem to be the common factor in many fires. One third of all car fires in the US are in electric cars although they make up a much smaller percentage of the total number of cars on the road. Hurricane Ian's floodwaters caused at least 11 electric vehicles in Florida to catch fire.

Although electric vehicles continue to improve, I am not sure I would want one in my garage.
Hopefully they can bring the price of solid state batteries down to where they can compete with Lithium Ion batteries. They are much safer, much more dependable, and we won't have to depend on lithium from China.
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Old 12-22-2022, 08:34 AM   #5
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Hopefully they can bring the price of solid state batteries down to where they can compete with Lithium Ion batteries. They are much safer, much more dependable, and we won't have to depend on lithium from China.
sodium ion is on it's way...
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Old 12-22-2022, 09:48 AM   #6
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I enjoy reading these forums and appreciate the information that everyone provides. I usually don't add my two cents worth but have to on this one.....
I am an insurance agent and had to make sure the information posted here about car fires and electric cars is based on facts. The facts from the data.

For every 100,000 EVs, there are about 25 fires each year. That compares to 1,530 car fires in the same number of gas-powered vehicles annually.

These are numbers....
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Old 12-22-2022, 09:57 AM   #7
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From the details given, and view of the home...
It wasn't attached to solar.

It was comparable to leaving the battery of one of your tools on a charger unattended for a long period of time. Especially one of the older versions.

A deep draw or over charge on the older versions could create the runaway thermal condition. The new ones go into sleep mode if draw down is below roughly 20% of capacity. The new chargers also have a chip that keeps them from charge much more beyond 80% capacity.

The safety mechanisms, like any, can degrade over time... and it is hard to determine from the article how long this unit was in use, its age, and what safety mechanisms were present.
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Old 12-22-2022, 11:06 AM   #8
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A recent study from insurance experts AutoinsuranceEZ.com might have some answers.

Researchers posed the question, “Are electric vehicles more prone to car fires than gas or hybrid vehicles?” Using data collected and analyzed from sources including the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), and government recall data from Recalls.gov, researchers broke down incidents of car fires by vehicle and fuel type.

After crunching car fire statistics and sales data, the authors of the study found that hybrids actually have more fires per 100K sales, with:

Hybrid vehicles: 3,474 fires per 100K sales
Gas vehicles: 1,529 fires per 100K sales
Electric vehicles: 25 fires per 100K sales
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Old 12-22-2022, 11:08 AM   #9
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I enjoy reading these forums and appreciate the information that everyone provides. I usually don't add my two cents worth but have to on this one.....
I am an insurance agent and had to make sure the information posted here about car fires and electric cars is based on facts. The facts from the data.

For every 100,000 EVs, there are about 25 fires each year. That compares to 1,530 car fires in the same number of gas-powered vehicles annually.

These are numbers....
Media outlets use scare tactics for everything they oppose. You see it every day in promoting different political view points.
It's taken us over 100 years to perfect the combustion engine vehicle. With the technology we have today it will take a lot less to perfect the EV.
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Old 12-22-2022, 04:14 PM   #10
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On Saturday, a Sanbornton house fire was started by lithium batteries. It's enough to make you think twice about having these in your home.

A statement from the fire department, “this phenomenon is known as a 'Thermal Runaway', which is one of the primary risks related to Lithium-ion Batteries.”

According to the statement, the roof of the garage collapsed within two minutes of arrival of the first fire companies. “This we believe is due to the failure of the roof truss system based on the fire load and the weight of the 24 solar panels on the south facing side of the garage roof,” wrote Deputy Chief Scott Taylor.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...ticle-nav-next

Lithium batteries seem to be the common factor in many fires. One third of all car fires in the US are in electric cars although they make up a much smaller percentage of the total number of cars on the road. Hurricane Ian's floodwaters caused at least 11 electric vehicles in Florida to catch fire.

Although electric vehicles continue to improve, I am not sure I would want one in my garage.
Not all batteries that use lithium react the same way to error conditions.

Lifepo4 batteries in particular have shown to be very resilient to various kinds of damage and somewhat difficult to get into a condition where the battery causes a runaway thermal event (fire, etc.).

The ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) has begun publishing standards regarding lithium/lifepo4 batteries in marine applications and the general conclusion is that they are no more risky than SLA batteries, or gas tanks, etc. However, like any highly dense energy storage device, they do need to be installed and maintained properly for safe operation. This mostly comes down to ensuring that the cables, connectors, fusing, etc. is adequate for the battery systems and their potential for much higher sustained output currents.

Regarding the risks of an EV in your garage, you may or may not remember the issue with F-series vehicles in the early 2000's catching fire while parked, due to a flaw in the brake master cylinder and wiring around it, as just one example.

There is no "safe" vehicle technology on the market when it comes right down to it.
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Old 12-23-2022, 02:33 AM   #11
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To clarify a couple of things: Most hybrid automobiles have used NIMH (Nickel based) batteries, not Lithium Ion. The plug-ins and fully electric ones mostly use the Lithium batteries. So all those reported hybrid fires mostly weren't lithium batteries.

But there are problems with poorly designed lithium batteries/chargers. Mostly currently in electric bicycles, skateboards and scooters. Cheaply made, you-know-where. The NYFD reports over 200 fires this year and 6 deaths from them. We had a house fire here in my village, with a death. I've never seen the official fire marshal's report, but there was a photo in the press of a very burnt electric scooter laying on the front lawn after being removed from the apartment by the FD.

The scooters and bikes are particularly popular with delivery people for take-out restaurants, who store them in their apartments/bedrooms and charge them there. There are also people who make a living storing and recharging a number of bikes in their apartment.

The batteries in the bikes are often poorly protected and easily damaged. And the chargers are made cheaply and worse, not interchangeable. Using the wrong charger with the wrong bike can set the battery, the charger, or both on fire. A serious problem.

But the batteries in electric vehicles are much better protected, both mechanically and electrically. Toyota warrants them for 10 years, so they build them to last. Also they don't want the Samsung effect. Samsung took a bath both financially and PR wise a few years ago when the batteries in some of their phones overheated and sometimes caught fire.

Some people are concerned about parking their electric automobile in their garage, but the same people keep their gasoline lawn mower and snowblower, and the can of gas, in the garage. Worse, some of them refill the tank in the garage, sometimes with the engine running. And if their kids have an electric bike/scooter, I'll bet you they keep it and charge it inside. That is really dangerous, at least until there are better standards for their safe design.

It remains to be seen if the lithium battery home storage systems are safe and remain so for their lifetime. Tesla seems to install them outside, at least in their literature. But they are only good down to -4 F, not good in any area with cold winters. And most other lithium batteries can't be charged much below freezing. The temptation will be to put them in the basement. Less safe than an outside wall? Less safe than your oil burner, already in your basement?? Remains to be seen.

There is a lot of energy in a small space, careful design and installation is in order, just like your heating system. But heating systems have been around for over 100 years, so most of the safety issues have been discovered and dealt with. Given that these battery systems are new tech, it does pay to be cautious.

Someone above suggested newer battery chemistry. But why would you think sodium, a very reactive element, would be safer than lithium. The issue isn't necessarily the specific chemistry, it is more in the design and failure modes. Any of these batteries hold a large amount of energy in a small space, and that has the potential to be dangerous if not well designed.
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Old 12-23-2022, 07:03 AM   #12
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Default Here's what happen in Sanbornton

https://granitegeek.concordmonitor.c...attery-backup/

It is obvious more changes need to be made in not only the technology and building codes but in the handling of lithium batteries.

'When cars were built, we did not kill off the horse and buggies'.
We should gradually change over rather than shove technology down our throats.
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Old 12-23-2022, 09:10 AM   #13
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https://granitegeek.concordmonitor.c...attery-backup/

It is obvious more changes need to be made in not only the technology and building codes but in the handling of lithium batteries.

'When cars were built, we did not kill off the horse and buggies'.
We should gradually change over rather than shove technology down our throats.
I doubt combustion engines will be eliminated anytime in the near future. The EV will just be another option for many and others will refuse to buy an EV which will just help the aftermarket car industry. Those people that refuse to buy an EV will keep pouring money into their old clunker just to avoid buying one. If you're looking to buy stocks, the aftermarket car parts industry will be the stocks to buy!
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Old 12-23-2022, 09:18 AM   #14
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Arrow When Gallons Count...

Statistics in car fires get wrecked when an electric car catches fire while parked between two internal combustion cars. Fire shoots out both sides, and it takes 200,000 gallons of water to control one electrical fire.

An engineer friend suggests the factory provide an outside fitting to accommodate a fire hose.

I've put out two gasoline car fires with one (each) 10-pound Kidde extinguishers. (Small and easy to access). Another car fire--fully enveloped by a gasoline-soaked carpet--I put out with a large CO2 extinguisher. (After a fast run to an adjoining garage bay).
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Old 12-23-2022, 10:43 AM   #15
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It isn't being shoved... and you literally do not have the time.
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Old 12-23-2022, 03:58 PM   #16
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We have installed many LG RESU battery backup systems with our new solar installations and some time this winter I will be installing one in my own house to offset the recent rash of NHEC grid outages. Five this year all ready this since their big rate increase! and ranging from 2 hours to 5 hours. Plus at least once a month the Co-op grid drops out just long enough to kick out the modem and require re-setting anything with a timer.
I'd prefer using a LFP (litho ferro phosphate) battery chemistry because as already pointed out they are inherently far safer than a NMC battery, but my SolarEdge system will only work with the LG 400 volt Li-ion batteries. Tesla Powerwall Li-ion batteries are similar in design to the LG RESUs, but are packaged with their own inverter and this is why they are sometimes used for backup sans solar array.
I do think that when I add my storage system I'll be building a remote insulated shed that will house both my old generator and the new LG battery. It will only take a very small heater to keep the battery above freezing and I'll have the security of having both the generator and battery in a weather tight enclosure and well away from my dwelling. We recently set up a similar battery shed for a client this way and the more I thought about it the more I liked the idea.
The impetus for the client's shed was the new code, NFP 855, that went into effect in July. In a nutshell all residential home energy storage batteries are now required to be either remote and/or enclosed in a one hour fire rated closet. This came about because the fire chiefs were reacting to ten house fires in the USA in the last couple of years that were proven to have started with the battery storage systems. Even though in the overall national scheme of things ten fires is a miniscule amount, it was still ten preventable fires. My only issue with the code is that it states all batteries when the culprits were all either NMC or acid based. Hopefully going forward the fire chiefs will exempt the far more stable LFP battery technology. An added benefit to LFPs is that they have an extremely long cycle life, Simpliphi warranties their LFP batteries for 10,000 cycles! That is literally a lifetime folks, and they are totally maintanence free.
The sulpher based batteries also hold promise too, but they are still working on perfecting the chemistry. Right now they are somewhat limited because of minute but constant mineral exchange between the cathode and anode and this leads to a relatively short life cycle.
After many discussions my partner and I have made a decision to move away from the SolarEdge/LG battery Li-ion system and will be instead installing either Outback or SolArk systems for our clients wanting battery backup and the advantages of daily self consumption. Both inverter systems use the much more stable LFP batteries, and an additional advantage to that is that the batteries are "stackable". What that means is that the client can add a nearly unlimited number of batteries after the initial installation. We have been using LFPs in our off-grid systems for three years now and have had multiple clients upgrade their systems with more storage capacity as their needs changed. Right now LFPs are the way to go!
Lastly, it is important to note that the battery setup that caused the Sanbornton fire was a home built system using used automotive NMC batteries, not a carefully engineered system from a major company like LG or Tesla and definitely not carrying a UL rating. It is an unfortunate situation but certainly there is something to be learned from bot this poor souls misfortune and the Moultonboro generator fire.
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Old 12-23-2022, 04:46 PM   #17
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Lastly, it is important to note that the battery setup that caused the Sanbornton fire was a home built system using used automotive NMC batteries, not a carefully engineered system from a major company like LG or Tesla and definitely not carrying a UL rating. It is an unfortunate situation but certainly there is something to be learned from bot this poor souls misfortune and the Moultonboro generator fire.
Yikes! This is the most important point of all. No one should be surprised if amateur electrical work ends in disaster. I feel terrible for the homeowners, but this situation really has nothing to do with commercial back up systems.

Also, folks should remember that batteries and solar are separate decisions. Batteries are great if you need need easy quiet backup power. But of you already have a generator, or do not need a generator, then there's no sense in buying a battery when you install solar
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Old 12-23-2022, 08:40 PM   #18
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Question Lithium Out--Hydrogen/Electric In...

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Although electric vehicles continue to improve, I am not sure I would want one in my garage.
Before I retired 24 years ago, I was aware that BMW--among others--was exploring a hydrogen-powered car.

This evening, I was watching cars racing separately against the clock at the Goodwood racetrack in Britain. A silent car was among the contenders. It was the Hyperion HP-4. Checking Google for the HP-4, I was directed to the Hyperion HP-1 instead.

'Turns out, there are several hydrogen-powered HP-1 cars circulating in California, where a 1000-mile range is expected. Lightweight tanks meter hydrogen gas, whereupon oxygen from the ambient air is mixed with it for electric power. "Pollution" consists only of water droplets.

Zero to 60 in two seconds!
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Old 12-24-2022, 05:06 AM   #19
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This is a reply to NH Solar. I just read the part of NFPA 855, which I was unfamiliar with, that sets requirements for installation of energy storage systems in one and two family homes. I think you somewhat exaggerate that part of the code.

The systems, up to a fairly big system are allowed attached to the exterior of the house, as long as they have a certain distance clearance from the windows/doors, they are allowed in attached or detached garages, or in enclosed utility closets and storage or utility spaces if the local inspection agency approves the closet/storage/utility space use. If in such an interior space that is unfinished/not noncombustible, the walls and ceiling shall be covered with 5/8 type X drywall. (and as I recall, that provides a one hour rating, rather than the half hour rating of half inch standard drywall.)

Nonetheless, I'd agree, install these systems with caution until the design standards have stabilized and unexpected hazards have been safely resolved. And most certainly you wand a system that has been tested and listed by an organization like UL, not something homemade from used parts, as the one in Sanbornville apparently was.
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