Ethanol Update

[ITD]

Originally Posted by meteotrade

At the risk of turning this into a political debate, need I remind you and SIKSUKR that it is the current Bush administration that is pushing hard for ethanol, not so much the environmentalists.

http://www.energybulletin.net/25558.html

"Corn-based ethanol has been at the center of a well-funded misinformation campaign launched and perpetuated by the Bush Administration. In fact Nicholas Hollis, President of the Agribusiness Council, believes that "ethanol is the largest scam in our nation's history""

Yeah, some of things Bush has done are a disappointment. The crux of the problem right now though is the failure of this country to increase the domestic supply. This can be laid squarely on the shoulders of environmentalists. For years we've been hearing that high fuel prices will solve all the problems we face, unfortunately just the opposite is true, more problems are being created. Alternative fuels could be a long term solution, we need relief now. Ethanol, besides the boat issues, seems to be more of a problem than a solution.

[Just Sold]

Putting politics aside and the money hungry companies/speculators and environmentalists as well. I do not believe ethanol is the right or best answer to the air polution problem but what is?????

Corn grown for ethanol and not for human food or animal feed use is increasing and that will drive the price of non-etanaol corn related products up substantially even without oil and gas prices increasing. There are may problems fighting a fire with ethanol in the fuel as the foams used for years ..do not work now.

Oil supplies of crude oil from Saudi Arabia which is the main source "Sweet Lite Crude" and is the easiest and cheapest to refine into gasoline are dwindling. Not so much as you can see it now but the supplies are not finite as many may believe. Now China, India and other developing countries are vieing for more oil to fuel their new industries and the cars the populations are buying instead of using public, bike and motorbike/cycle transportation. the world is using more oil and we hear at the lake and elsewhere are seeing the result of that.

The US is not the biggest player or producer in the oil market today so we do pay for that at the pumps and elsewhere. We are no longer in control as we were in the 40's, 50's and 60's. Remember the 74 oil crisis ???? I do as I worked in a gas station then. Our biggest source of oil is now from Canada and I believe Venezuala for heating oil (at least for the eastern half of the US) and not the Middle East as it once was.

There are many alternative sources for getting oil but it is very expensive to do. So if you think gas prices are high now it could be worse sooner than later unless we do something sooner rather than later.

The History Channel has had 2 shows recently that address the problem with oil and give a good look at the history of oil and what is coming in our not to distant future if we do not do something to conserve and find alternative sources of energy soon.

They will be repeated in this month and are worth viewing.
Episode: Oil Apocalypse

http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=273137

Episode: Oil.

http://www.history.com/shows.do?acti...isodeId=276885

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Just Sold

Putting politics aside and the money hungry companies/speculators and environmentalists as well. I do not believe ethanol is the right or best answer to the air polution problem but what is?????

Corn grown for ethanol and not for human food or animal feed use is increasing and that will drive the price of non-etanaol corn related products up substantially even without oil and gas prices increasing. There are may problems fighting a fire with ethanol in the fuel as the foams used for years ..do not work now.

Oil supplies of crude oil from Saudi Arabia which is the main source "Sweet Lite Crude" and is the easiest and cheapest to refine into gasoline are dwindling. Not so much as you can see it now but the supplies are not finite as many may believe. Now China, India and other developing countries are vieing for more oil to fuel their new industries and the cars the populations are buying instead of using public, bike and motorbike/cycle transportation. the world is using more oil and we hear at the lake and elsewhere are seeing the result of that.

The US is not the biggest player or producer in the oil market today so we do pay for that at the pumps and elsewhere. We are no longer in control as we were in the 40's, 50's and 60's. Remember the 74 oil crisis ???? I do as I worked in a gas station then. Our biggest source of oil is now from Canada and I believe Venezuala for heating oil (at least for the eastern half of the US) and not the Middle East as it once was.

There are many alternative sources for getting oil but it is very expensive to do. So if you think gas prices are high now it could be worse sooner than later unless we do something sooner rather than later.

The History Channel has had 2 shows recently that address the problem with oil and give a good look at the history of oil and what is coming in our not to distant future if we do not do something to conserve and find alternative sources of energy soon.

They will be repeated in this month and are worth viewing.
Episode: Oil Apocalypse

http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=273137

Episode: Oil.

http://www.history.com/shows.do?acti...isodeId=276885

Here's a neat little website, shows the US as number 3 behind Saudi Arabia and Russia in oil production.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/country/cou...ta.cfm?fips=US

This page shows a steady decline in domestic production since the 70's and 80's right about the time the environmental movement gained traction.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mcrfpus1a.htm

I am by no means anti environment, but we seem to have a tendency to go from total disregard to stifling regulation pretty quickly without regard to consequences. Drilling in other areas should not be so difficult in this country. Oil drives our GDP, GDP allows us to eat, shut off oil now and a lot of people will suffer.
Solutions for our current problems will not come from government officials, in fact if they don't get out of the way they make it worse. When they try to solve this type of problem it ends up being a disaster, read mtbe. I'm a free market guy, I was suspicious of ethanol when it came out, now I'm sure it's the wrong choice, politicians should let the market decide what's right.

[hazelnut]

So why is it you never hear about stories such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuoBuhg4PL0

If this is legit it could change the world. Why wouldn't this be heralded as one of the greatest inventions of our time. Why doesn't this get the same press as a cure for "X" disease would. I mean curing our dependency on foreign oil would be just about the single greatest feat in our time on earth wouldn't it? I just happened to stumble on that video about a year ago and I have not seen or heard anything since then regarding the subject?

[wifi]

WOW!! Wonder if it takes more energy to separate the hydrogen from the water than it gives in power?

This brings up a story when I was a kid (sorry, I just had to do this). A much older teen age neighbor of mine wanted to prove to me he invented a process for his lawn mower to run on water. He took out a bottle, gave me a sip of the water and poured it into his lawnmower... it worked!!! I snuck back later on that night and discovered a bag he had hanging down in the neck, capturing the water.......

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

So why is it you never hear about stories such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuoBuhg4PL0

If this is legit it could change the world. Why wouldn't this be heralded as one of the greatest inventions of our time. Why doesn't this get the same press as a cure for "X" disease would. I mean curing our dependency on foreign oil would be just about the single greatest feat in our time on earth wouldn't it? I just happened to stumble on that video about a year ago and I have not seen or heard anything since then regarding the subject?

You've not heard more because it's not "legit". Mr Klein has re-invented "Brown's Gas", aka hydrogen. BMW has cars running internal combustion engines on pure H2 (as have other's before them) and you can increase your car's efficiency a bit by adding a little H2 to the gas/air mixture (supposedly the higher combustion temps that result increase the efficiency of the gas burning). This isn't new science in any respect. What you can't do is get energy from water to use as a fuel/energy source.

You can electrolyze water, turning it into hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2). No matter what claims are made for catylists and new methods of electrolyzing (I saw one using microwaves to "zap" the water), you won't get the same energy back re-combining H2 and O2 that was needed to separate them. It's a net energy loser. Hydrogen may have a place in the scheme of things since it's relatively quick when refueling (unlike a battery) but it's a method of carrying energy (like a rechargable battery) rather than a source of energy (like oil).

[jrc]

I think all the hype about hydrogen as a fuel expects that electricity from coal or atomic power plants will create hydrogen. That hydrogen will be used to run cars.

We have enough coal to run the US for 300 years, by then we should have figured out something else.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by jrc

I think all the hype about hydrogen as a fuel expects that electricity from coal or atomic power plants will create hydrogen. That hydrogen will be used to run cars.

We have enough coal to run the US for 300 years, by then we should have figured out something else.

Alas the various anti-nuke groups have so scared the public that getting a nuke plant built now is too long, too expensive to do. I find it amazing that France can get >75% of it's electricity from nuke plants for the last 3 decades but we won't here due to fear.

[Orion]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Alas the various anti-nuke groups have so scared the public that getting a nuke plant built now is too long, too expensive to do. I find it amazing that France can get >75% of it's electricity from nuke plants for the last 3 decades but we won't here due to fear.

Far far more people have been killed or injured by coal mining than nuclear energy. Ingorance creates fear. Safe nukes could have been made and are being made in France. The key to French success is standardization on a design and refining that design. Our nuke history has been new designs for each plant, and alas, far too few built (none in 3 decades!). Too bad.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

You've not heard more because it's not "legit". Mr Klein has re-invented "Brown's Gas", aka hydrogen. BMW has cars running internal combustion engines on pure H2 (as have other's before them) and you can increase your car's efficiency a bit by adding a little H2 to the gas/air mixture (supposedly the higher combustion temps that result increase the efficiency of the gas burning). This isn't new science in any respect. What you can't do is get energy from water to use as a fuel/energy source.

You can electrolyze water, turning it into hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2). No matter what claims are made for catylists and new methods of electrolyzing (I saw one using microwaves to "zap" the water), you won't get the same energy back re-combining H2 and O2 that was needed to separate them. It's a net energy loser. Hydrogen may have a place in the scheme of things since it's relatively quick when refueling (unlike a battery) but it's a method of carrying energy (like a rechargable battery) rather than a source of energy (like oil).

Had to suspect it was too good to be true. How does this guy get away with this claim?
Here is his site: http://www.hytechapps.com/

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Had to suspect it was too good to be true. How does this guy get away with this claim?
Here is his site: http://www.hytechapps.com/

I note he doesn't ever make the claim that you can run your car on water alone* but instead claims his invention helps when used as a fuel additive. This can be true and is well documented with large diesel engines. With gas engines I'm a bit more skeptical though he does cite his test results.

http://www.hytechapps.com/aquygen/hh...t_20031021.pdf

*He comes mighty close, perhaps even over the line, with this part though ....

"With it, Aquygen™ Gas can be used as a primary fuel source or a fuel additive for gasoline and diesel engines. We have applied this breakthrough method in two prototype vehicles—a 1994 Ford Escort Wagon and a 1998 Ford Ranger pickup. Our current prototype generates Aquygen™ as it runs. Minimal engine modifications allow the car to combine gasoline and Aquygen™ for a typical net increase in fuel efficiency of 20-30%."

Hydrogen can be used as a primary fuel source though not generated the way he does when used as an additive (in car, as it runs). He kind of skirts this exact claim. I bet if you asked about running the car on the system alone, without any gasoline, he'd come back with "It's under investigation".

Regarding his test results ... I suspect he got exactly what he measured, no lying. The question is whether he pussyfooted it when running w/Aquygen™ Gas as an additive and/or was a little more heavy-footed when running w/o.

It would be interesting to know if GM or Ford or Toyota have looked into his technology as a general purpose, MPG enhancing system. If it worked as well as he claims on any car (or even 25% as good) the big auto companies would have snapped it up. I'm aware of a Canadian and a NZ company making similar claims for their H2 producing systems though their results were with large diesel engined tractor/trailer type rigs.