Lake Daytime Speed Limit

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

That is a false equivalency.... Rules/Laws on the road have nothing to do with rules on the water. The reasons for both are vastly different.

The DAYTIME speed limit on the lake has had ZERO effect on lake safety. There were no high speed (>45MPH) accidents before the speed limit... there have been no high speed (>45MPH) accidents since the passage of the speed limit. During the day a boaters visibility is measured in miles, not yards or feet.

Almost every accident on this lake has occurred at NIGHT and involved alcohol. There have been other mitigating factors as well, reduced visibility, operator error, etc etc.

The speed limit is a feel good law that luckily is rarely enforced. I would prefer the MP deal with the boneheads who do not know the ROW rules and the NWZ rules. Usually the 150' rule doesn't get me riled unless they are danger close (<40')

Woodsy

Well your take on this seems to be somewhat at odds with the 83% of the Transportation Committee who voted to kill the bill this week, bipartisan no less. And the 80% of reps who supported the SL 11 years ago. And the greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake that supported the SL 11 years ago.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Well your take on this seems to be somewhat at odds with the 83% of the Transportation Committee who voted to kill the bill this week, bipartisan no less. And the 80% of reps who supported the SL 11 years ago. And the greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake that supported the SL 11 years ago.

Sunset...

It's safe to say that most of the transportation committee has nothing to do with representing Lake Winnipesaukee. Only 2 lakes region towns are represented, but and only 1 representative ron the committee is from a town bordering the lake.

Nor does it change any of the facts I posted above.... ZERO accidents at a speed >45MPH.

Personally I don't really care or worry about speed when I am on the water. Its a rare day when I cruise faster than 45MPH, even though my boat is capable of 1.5X that speed.

Woodsy

[sunset on the dock]

Sorry Woodsy...Karel Crawford is from Moultonboro and voted to kill the bill. Not that that matters...people from all parts of the state boat on Winnipesaukee and like you have their own opinions. And as said, 11 years ago greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake supported the speed limit.

And I was pleased to learn that the Lake Winnipesaukee Association and Lakes Region Conservation Trust have formally opposed the bill. And the NH Lakes Association. And the Lake Winni Sailing Assoc. And the NH Lakes Advisory Board. And 6 Winni marinas, one of whose owners spoke at the Trans. Comm. hearing. Check out the testimony, it's quite easy, all videotaped and available online. It is quite compelling.

[DEJ]

Woodsy wrote: Nor does it change any of the facts I posted above.... ZERO accidents at a speed >45MPH.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by DEJ

Woodsy wrote: Nor does it change any of the facts I posted above.... ZERO accidents at a speed >45MPH.

Zero? Really? You need to get your facts straight. Wonder how that swimmer did?


State of New Hampshire
DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY
Robert L. Quinn, Commissioner of Safety
Division of State Police
James H. Hayes Safety Building, 33 Hazen Drive, Concord, NH 03305

Colonel Nathan A. Noyes
Director



February 3, 2022


The following accidents have been identified as being related to speeds potentially in excess of limits set by RSA 270-D:2 X:

2013
July 7th 5:00 pm Operator of PWC (Personal Watercraft) fell into handle bars 45 mph
July 20th 8:00am Operator struck underwater object and boat sunk 45 mph

2015
August 23rd 8:17am Powerboat struck swimmer 65+mph

2018
September 2nd 2:56pm PWC fall over board 50 mph


Sincerely,

Timothy C. Dunleavy
Marine Patrol Captain

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by DEJ

Woodsy wrote: Nor does it change any of the facts I posted above.... ZERO accidents at a speed >45MPH.

Zero? Really? You need to get your facts straight. Wonder how that swimmer did?


State of New Hampshire
DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY
Robert L. Quinn, Commissioner of Safety
Division of State Police
James H. Hayes Safety Building, 33 Hazen Drive, Concord, NH 03305

Colonel Nathan A. Noyes
Director



February 3, 2022


The following accidents have been identified as being related to speeds potentially in excess of limits set by RSA 270-D:2 X:

2013
July 7th 5:00 pm Operator of PWC (Personal Watercraft) fell into handle bars 45 mph
July 20th 8:00am Operator struck underwater object and boat sunk 45 mph

2015
August 23rd 8:17am Powerboat struck swimmer 65+mph

2018
September 2nd 2:56pm PWC fall over board 50 mph


Sincerely,

Timothy C. Dunleavy
Marine Patrol Captain

May not be zero, but 3 incidents in 7 seasons and extremely minimal for the amount of boats on the lake.


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[chachee52]

Originally Posted by joey2665

May not be zero, but 3 incidents in 7 seasons and extremely minimal for the amount of boats on the lake.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I only saw 2 that fell into the "against that rules".

Thank you Woodsy for saying what you have been saying. At the time of the original bill, I know MP stated less than 1% of all boating accidents in NH had anything to do with speed.
And falling off a jet ski is just stupidity and bad driving most of the time. Yes, randomly a rouge wave, but most of the time the accidents I hear from jetskis are they jumped the wave and hit their head or another boat.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by joey2665

May not be zero, but 3 incidents in 7 seasons and extremely minimal for the amount of boats on the lake.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Again, as alluded to previously, just because there were no accidents on my street in the last 7 years does not mean I will advocate to have no speed limits on my street.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Again, as alluded to previously, just because there were no accidents on my street in the last 7 years does not mean I will advocate to have no speed limits on my street.

Let's use your logic: There were probably no dog bites on your street either but shouldn't we outlaw dogs on your street just to eliminate that possibility.

It looks like only two incidents that would have fallen outside the speed limit in 9 years. That statistic, on a lake with thousands of boats, actually illustrates the opposite of what you are trying to say.

It solidifies that fact that speed is not, and has not been, a problem. It remains a "feel good" law.

Anyone who thinks that two incidents in 9 years represents a problem is kidding themselves.

[DEJ]

I always go with the experts when it comes to safety on the lake, in this case the experts are Marine Patrol, they were not in favor of this law.

[sunset on the dock]

Actually the MP did not come out as in favor or not. Ditto Marine Trades Assoc. But the NH Lakes Management Advisory Committee did come out as against the bill. It is a 19 member NH governmental agency, not simply a single head of the MP with his own agenda. And I also consider the NH Lakes Assoc. and Lake Winni Assoc. as knowledgeable stewards of the lake. And six marina owners know what helps and hurts the local economy.

But here is the really interesting part. Two of the bill's co-sponsors, Littlefield (R)( Laconia) and Dennis Thompson withdrew their support citing their objections to this reckless bill. I'm told that when a sponsor, in this case two, withdraws their support for a bill then said bill is pretty much dead on arrival. We saw a harbinger of that when the committee voted 15:3 to ITL.

[John Mercier]

RBOB jumped 23 cents today.
But we haven't really seen the local economy make the change as of yet.

[chachee52]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Again, as alluded to previously, just because there were no accidents on my street in the last 7 years does not mean I will advocate to have no speed limits on my street.

Going around in circles. Again, forget about the last 7 years. When there was no speed limit on the lake, speed was not a factor in over 99% of all accidents.
Again taking the speed limit off or keeping it in place has no affect on how I boat. My boat doesn't go about 45 anyway. But when laws make no sense statistically, like it did when it was first put into affect, than its a "feel good law" as others have stated.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Again, as alluded to previously, just because there were no accidents on my street in the last 7 years does not mean I will advocate to have no speed limits on my street.

Just because there are 3 accidents on 93 doesn’t mean we need to drop the speed limit down to 45 either.


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[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Just because there are 3 accidents on 93 doesn’t mean we need to drop the speed limit down to 45 either.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

And just because there are only 3 accidents on 93 doesn't mean we remove all speed limits from said highway.

And getting back to the 2 reps who withdrew co-sponsorship and the 6 marinas who oppose the bill, to quote James Carville, "it's the economy stupid".
Safety is just one of many reasons to preserve the speed limit on the lake.

[Seaplane Pilot]

I have contacted my state rep encouraging them to introduce a bill requiring safety flags on all kayaks. That’s a REAL safety issue, unlike the useless speed limit law.

[fatlazyless]

Their kayak two-bladed paddle seems to get noticed, first, by a motorboat as it approaches and alters its course. Painting the blades high gloss white works good what with the paddle movement to be seen from something like 1/2-mile away, across the water.

A flag doesn't work as well as a moving twin blade paddle because the flag is stationary, unlike the paddle, and a flag just blends into the background when seen from a distance.

So, kayaks already have an identifier as seen by an approaching motorboat with the twin-bladed, moving paddle and the color bright white is a lot better than a dark color to get seen by the driver in an approaching motorboat.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

I have contacted my state rep encouraging them to introduce a bill requiring safety flags on all kayaks. That’s a REAL safety issue, unlike the useless speed limit law.

When we were going through the speed limit stuff ~2009 a couple of reps on the RR & D committee took all the safety issues that people complained about that had nothing to do with speed, and put them into a separate bill. Flags for kayaks, canoes, whistles, etc. Amazingly, people like the Camp Directors Association fought this stuff because while they were trying to teach safe boating, they were concerned that if you gave a kid a whistle, he would blow it. There's a real eye roller.
Historically speed limit bills go to the Transportation Committee and prior to 2008 there had been ~18 bills that had failed. Speed limit advocates did two things. They found a committee chair on their side who convinced the Speaker to assign the bill to his committee, not Transportation, but RR & D. Second, instead of using lobbyists, they ran a series of public surveys that showed that statewide, 62%(?) of the population thought speed limits would improve safety. Then they went around to newspaper editorial boards and convinced them to print editorials in favor of speed limits (SAFETY). Any Rep or Senator who had no personal boating experience was hard pressed to "vote against safety." It was a good strategy and it worked, even though there were no statistics demonstrating a link between speed and accidents. (On the highway, there is some evidence that weaving around and tailgating cause accidents, but speed is easier to enforce, so speed limits and radar guns get the nod.)
My recollection is that there were a handful of GFBL boats with obnoxious operators that really pushed the desire to get rid of them and speed won even though many people didn't like the noise. Noise bills were successfully passed, but the speed people apparently didn't want anything to dilute their successful message. In any event, most of the noise is gone along with the high speeds. Or, maybe the high speeds are still there, but since they're quiet, nobody notices enough to call in a complaint? Time to focus on wake boats and loud stereo as the new enemy.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Descant

My recollection is that there were a handful of GFBL boats with obnoxious operators that really pushed the desire to get rid of them and speed won even though many people didn't like the noise. Noise bills were successfully passed, but the speed people apparently didn't want anything to dilute their successful message. In any event, most of the noise is gone along with the high speeds. Or, maybe the high speeds are still there, but since they're quiet, nobody notices enough to call in a complaint? Time to focus on wake boats and loud stereo as the new enemy.

Exactly--it is the obnoxious operators that lead to clampdowns on all--GFBL guys, circling wake boats, jet skis weaving through bowriders and toons....We might debate and nitpick safety, but it's these things that spike stress levels for others and lead to hundreds of emails

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

And just because there are only 3 accidents on 93 doesn't mean we remove all speed limits from said highway.

And getting back to the 2 reps who withdrew co-sponsorship and the 6 marinas who oppose the bill, to quote Larry Carville, "it's the economy stupid".
Safety is just one of many reasons to preserve the speed limit on the lake.

Here is were you are incorrect. Nationwide due to the low accident rates speed limits were increased in many areas to 65 and 75.

So maybe the speed limit shouldn't be removed but at least increased in the daytime. Oh wait, a compromise, how original these days

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Again, as alluded to previously, just because there were no accidents on my street in the last 7 years does not mean I will advocate to have no speed limits on my street.

Sunset, I get what you are trying to say. I just don't see the equivalency. I'm guessing you mean you are on a side street, probably 25 or 30 mph limit? Let me know if I'm wrong. I agree, and I bet every person here would agree, that speed limit is appropriate and necessary for a neighborhood street.

I believe the 45 mph speed limit in large open water areas is neither needed nor effective. Just my opinion, of course. Would I consider an 80 mph limit appropriate? I don't know, but I'd have to think about it.

Now back to your street. If they implemented a 10 mph limit, would it be appropriate? Would you then perhaps advocate that yes there should be a limit, but 25 or 30 is the correct number?

Not really trying to argue with you, I really do respect the "limit is appropriate" side of the discussion. But I think part of the discord is how 45 mph is viewed by boaters like me, I'm an owner of a 60 plus mph boat and feel the limit is neither needed nor effective.

[John Mercier]

The bill was not specified to large open water.
Maybe it will get amended. Maybe they will need to wait until the next session.

[fatlazyless]

Stand-up paddle boards are required to have a pfd onboard and a whistle while kayaks are required to have a pfd but not a whistle. Has something to do with the Coast Guard decision that a stand-up paddle board is a vessel .... toot-toot ... ???

And, actually wearing the pfd is not required in NH if age-16 or older, or something??? Common sense tells you to wear a pfd with a good loud whistle or maybe an air horn! Air horns come small enough to fit in a pocket on a pfd or be worn around the neck on a lanyard.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by LikeLakes

Sunset, I get what you are trying to say. I just don't see the equivalency. I'm guessing you mean you are on a side street, probably 25 or 30 mph limit? Let me know if I'm wrong. I agree, and I bet every person here would agree, that speed limit is appropriate and necessary for a neighborhood street.

I believe the 45 mph speed limit in large open water areas is neither needed nor effective. Just my opinion, of course. Would I consider an 80 mph limit appropriate? I don't know, but I'd have to think about it.

Now back to your street. If they implemented a 10 mph limit, would it be appropriate? Would you then perhaps advocate that yes there should be a limit, but 25 or 30 is the correct number?

Not really trying to argue with you, I really do respect the "limit is appropriate" side of the discussion. But I think part of the discord is how 45 mph is viewed by boaters like me, I'm an owner of a 60 plus mph boat and feel the limit is neither needed nor effective.

30 MPH is an appropriate speed limit for my street. And 45 MPH is what the public feels is an appropriate speed on the lake. How do I justify my argument? The public has weighed in:

As noted in my previous posts:

1) 80% of the house voted in 2011 that 45 MPH was appropriate with greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake.

2) The Transportation Committee with a 15:3 vote last week concurs.

3) Business agree that 45 MPH is an appropriate speed. Over 300 businesses supported the implementation of our 45/30 law a decade ago. This included marinas and this time around 6 of them are opposing HB 1424. They know what is good for their bottom line. One marina owner testified as such at the recent hearing in Concord.
I walk to the town docks in Meredith during the summer and boats are lined up waiting for an open dock space.

4) Influential organizations/stewards of the lake feel 45 MPH is an appropriate speed.

Lakes Region Conservation Trust
Lake Winnipesaukee Association
NH Lakes Management Advisory Committee
NH Lakes Association
Loon Preservation Committee
Wolfeboro Waters
NH Camps Directors Association
Lake Winnipesaukee Sailing Association
Camps Brookwoods, Deer Run, Kabeyun, Belknap, and Sandy Island Camp

I get it. You have a boat that goes 60 MPH. Rep. Bordes has a boat that will go 58 MPH. Rep. Bordes stated in the LDS article last fall that NY, the state from which he hailed, has no speed limits on lakes...wrong, Lake George for example has a SL of 45 MPH. He states that owners of $250K-$350K boats are some of the safest/responsible boaters around. Many would take issue with that given the Littlefield accident, the fatal accident occurring off Diamond island, or online bragging by an anti speed limit advocate regarding alcohol consumption. These are not hallmarks of responsible behavior.

People do not want another open invitation to have ocean going speed boats return to the Broads racing back and forth. The whole tenor of the lake has changed with implementation of the common sense 45/30 MPH speed limit. People want to enjoy all parts of the lake. They do not wish to recreate on an aquatic racetrack anymore than you would want to have a picnic on the median strip of I-93. Again, points 1-4 above show that the public agrees.

[LikeLakes]

Well said and as I said above, I don't think you are wrong. My stance on the limit actually isn't because of my boat, I rarely go over 45 anyway and the few times I do it's on a weekday in calm water with virtually nobody in any proximity to me. I just wonder about the research behind it. But, if most people want it, I don't have a strong enough objection to do anything more than accept it as the law.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by LikeLakes

Well said and as I said above, I don't think you are wrong. My stance on the limit actually isn't because of my boat, I rarely go over 45 anyway and the few times I do it's on a weekday in calm water with virtually nobody in any proximity to me. I just wonder about the research behind it. But, if most people want it, I don't have a strong enough objection to do anything more than accept it as the law.

And I appreciate your measured stance and open minded, even tempered approach. A good lesson for many who post on this forum. Thanks!

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Many would take issue with that given the Littlefield accident, the fatal accident occurring off Diamond island, or online bragging by an anti speed limit advocate regarding alcohol consumption. These are not hallmarks of responsible behavior.

People do not want another open invitation to have ocean going speed boats return to the Broads racing back and forth. The whole tenor of the lake has changed with implementation of the common sense 45/30 MPH speed limit. People want to enjoy all parts of the lake. They do not wish to recreate on an aquatic racetrack anymore than you would want to have a picnic on the median strip of I-93. Again, points 1-4 above show that the public agrees.

The accidents you cite had nothing to do with speed. The "feel good" speed law would not have prevented either accident.

"People do not want another open invitation to have ocean going speed boats return to the Broads racing back and forth."

That was never the case. I have been on the lake some part, or all, of every summer since 1970. Were there a few speed boats passing by now and again? Sure. Were there a significant number of speed related accidents? NO Two speed related incidents in 9 years is actually proof that speed is not, and has never been, a problem.

It is a feel good law for people who would like to see Winnipesaukee become Squam lake.

Almost every jet ski on the lake can exceed 45 MPH. Many can go over 60. Should we throw them off the lake too?

People should be a lot more concerned about the shoreline damage and noise cause by the wake boats. They are a bigger, growing, problem than a few speed boats ever were.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

The accidents you cite had nothing to do with speed. The "feel good" speed law would not have prevented either accident.

"People do not want another open invitation to have ocean going speed boats return to the Broads racing back and forth."

That was never the case. I have been on the lake some part, or all, of every summer since 1970. Were there a few speed boats passing by now and again? Sure. Were there a significant number of speed related accidents? NO Two speed related incidents in 9 years is actually proof that speed is not, and has never been, a problem.

It is a feel good law for people who would like to see Winnipesaukee become Squam lake.

Almost every jet ski on the lake can exceed 45 MPH. Many can go over 60. Should we throw them off the lake too?

People should be a lot more concerned about the shoreline damage and noise cause by the wake boats. They are a bigger, growing, problem than a few speed boats ever were.

Nor did I say, intimate, suggest, or otherwise allude that it was speed. If you read my post carefully, I make the point that many would disagree with Rep. Bordes' contention that the owners of $250-$350K boats are some of the most safe and responsible boaters. The Littlefield and Blizzard accidents (both alcohol related), and an anti speed limit advocate boasting of excess alcohol consumption do not scream "safe and responsible behavior".

As far as PWC's that can go 60 MPH...fine, they can also go 45 MPH too.

But as said in my earlier post, points 1-4, the public (and the legislature) support our commonsense 45/30 speed limit.

I too have been on the lake since the 1970's. And the positive change in the last 10 years with our 45/30 speed limit has been immense.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

And the positive change in the last 10 years with our 45/30 speed limit has been immense.

Can you elaborate? I'm not being snarky, I'm just interested in the changes you've seen.

I've only been boating Winni since '14, but it seems like these last few years have been the "worst," and every single issue is something other than speed: bad/incapable docking, boats too close at the wrong speed (swamping), people unaware of where they are, etc.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[LIforrelaxin]

These threads still get out of hand I see...

Having been on the lake since 85, I can say that I have scene the speed limit do very little.... Hell when the decibel limit was first enacted, it did more to change the atmosphere of the lake then the speed limit.

I will also say that I see plenty of watercraft exceed the speed limit when it is safe to do so... (Probably some even when it is not so safe to do so).... in the end I think the legislation is still a waste of ink and the paper it was written on...

It is a feel good law, very hard to enforce, and quite honestly there are more important things for the MP to be spending their limited man power on.

As someone else mentioned, a feel less comfortable on the lake then I did just a few years ago, mainly because of the next generation of boaters, who don't seem to get the basic laws of the water, let alone worrying about their speed.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Can you elaborate? I'm not being snarky, I'm just interested in the changes you've seen.

I've only been boating Winni since '14, but it seems like these last few years have been the "worst," and every single issue is something other than speed: bad/incapable docking, boats too close at the wrong speed (swamping), people unaware of where they are, etc.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

The biggest thing that has changed in the 50 plus years I have been on Winnipesaukee is the lake is busier now than it was many years ago. With that increase, I have noticed an increase of people who struggle docking, are unaware of how to properly trim a boat while underway, and are oblivious to the boats around them.

Nothing changed with the inception of the "feel good" speed limit. The speed limit had zero effect on safety on the lake. The only thing the speed limit fanatics couldn't point out is evidence that speed is, or was ever, a problem. That is why it makes no sense, it just makes them feel good. If there was evidence that speed was problem I would be glad to revisit the issue.

I am out on the lake a lot. Between 7 years operating tours 60 to 90 hours per year, and using my own boats in addition to that, I average over 300 hours per year on Winnipesaukee. I am fortunate to own a home that looks out at a wide area of the lake so I can see a lot and I am well aware of what is going on.

It is too bad there aren't better opportunities for people to learn about boat safety and handling but I am not sure the people who need the help would take advantage of it.

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

It is too bad there aren't better opportunities for people to learn about boat safety and handling but I am not sure the people who need the help would take advantage of it.

Agree completely. Boat handling, knowing basic boating "rules of the road", are the real issues affecting safe boating on Winni. Some additional training would help.

Alcohol is a big factor but I view it differently. Passing too close to another boat, or cutting them off, or poor docking are a problem. Boating when drunk is criminal.

Speed simply isn't a safety factor IMO.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by LikeLakes

Agree completely. Boat handling, knowing basic boating "rules of the road", are the real issues affecting safe boating on Winni. Some additional training would help.

Alcohol is a big factor but I view it differently. Passing too close to another boat, or cutting them off, or poor docking are a problem. Boating when drunk is criminal.

Speed simply isn't a safety factor IMO.

Speed simply isn't a safety factor because the 45/30 limit is working. Hence the support by 6 marinas and the many organizations quoted earlier.

45 MPH + alcohol = very bad
75 MPH + alcohol = very bad X factor of 10

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Speed simply isn't a safety factor because the 45/30 limit is working. Hence the support by 6 marinas and the many organizations quoted earlier.

45 MPH + alcohol = very bad
75 MPH + alcohol = very bad X factor of 10

Let me put it a different way: Speed wasn’t a safety issue before the completely useless speed limit became law. Speed is now not a factor after the completely useless speed limit has been law for many years.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Let me put it a different way: Speed wasn’t a safety issue before the completely useless speed limit became law. Speed is now not a factor after the completely useless speed limit has been law for many years.

You are missing the point: With the implementation of the speed limit nothing has changed with regard to safety on the lake. The speed limit just makes some people feel good. It's all about their feelings.

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Speed simply isn't a safety factor because the 45/30 limit is working. Hence the support by 6 marinas and the many organizations quoted earlier.

45 MPH + alcohol = very bad
75 MPH + alcohol = very bad X factor of 10

Going back to where I started, which is that I just don't think there is much if any science behind the number 45 .... By your premise shouldn't they make the speed limit 30 mph, since 30 MPH + alcohol = less bad?

As I said, I separate alcohol usage from this because it is criminal, irresponsible behavior. We don't reduce the speed limit on our highways because it would make it safer when drunk drivers are on the road.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by LikeLakes

Going back to where I started, which is that I just don't think there is much if any science behind the number 45 .... By your premise shouldn't they make the speed limit 30 mph, since 30 MPH + alcohol = less bad?

As I said, I separate alcohol usage from this because it is criminal, irresponsible behavior. We don't reduce the speed limit on our highways because it would make it safer when drunk drivers are on the road.

And what is the science behind 70 MPH on the highway? Can you cite that? No we don't decrease the speed limit on our highways to make it safer when drunk drivers are on the road but neither do we increase or eliminate them like you want to on the lake.
As far as codeman's recent post, I think he missed the post about a swimmer being hit at 65+ MPH on Winni in 2015. And googling fatal high speed accidents on other lakes in other states might be a worthwhile endeavor for codeman.

But again...the present speed limit law, as said, is supported by 6 marinas, and 300 businesses when it was made permanent 11 years ago, and now several high profile lake organizations (LWA, NH Lakes Assoc., LRCT, LWSA, LPC, NHCDA). And 80% of the NH house in 2011. But of course every single one of these people and organizations must be terribly wrong/misguided ?!?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

75 MPH + alcohol = very bad X factor of 10

Can you cite an accident where this has been the actual case on Winnipesaukee? Both Littlefield and Blizzard's accidents were sub-45mph situations.

[chachee52]

But as said in my earlier post, points 1-4, the public (and the legislature) support our commonsense 45/30 speed limit.

I too have been on the lake since the 1970's. And the positive change in the last 10 years with our 45/30 speed limit has been immense.

Will agree to disagree that the lake is safer in the last 10 years. Growing up on the lake and boating the entire time. The I will definitely say I pick and choose the times I go out during the summer now compared to 10-15 years ago when I used to feel safe going out anytime in my 14 ft and then 18 ft boats. Now have a 25 ft and feel I'm playing dodge boat from others. As people have mentioned, it has nothing to do with speed, just people oblivious of what's going on.

And the argument that a majority of legislators support the speed limit is like saying "if everyone jumps off a bridge it must mean its a good idea". That just means the Legislators just don't care or they are getting some kind of kick back by someone?

The argument that speed limit is safer I think is what people are arguing, Its not, and there is no evidence that it is. Do a majority of people support a speed limit because a) their boats don't go above 45 anyway and B) even if their boat does go that fast, 99% of the time they don't. I think that is more the supporters of it. It just doesn't matter to people if there is a speed limit of not on the lake because it doesn't matter.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by chachee52

Will agree to disagree that the lake is safer in the last 10 years. Growing up on the lake and boating the entire time. The I will definitely say I pick and choose the times I go out during the summer now compared to 10-15 years ago when I used to feel safe going out anytime in my 14 ft and then 18 ft boats. Now have a 25 ft and feel I'm playing dodge boat from others. As people have mentioned, it has nothing to do with speed, just people oblivious of what's going on.

And the argument that a majority of legislators support the speed limit is like saying "if everyone jumps off a bridge it must mean its a good idea". That just means the Legislators just don't care or they are getting some kind of kick back by someone?

The argument that speed limit is safer I think is what people are arguing, Its not, and there is no evidence that it is. Do a majority of people support a speed limit because a) their boats don't go above 45 anyway and B) even if their boat does go that fast, 99% of the time they don't. I think that is more the supporters of it. It just doesn't matter to people if there is a speed limit of not on the lake because it doesn't matter.

Would you try once again please, this time in English.

[John Mercier]

In English, non-issue.

[fatlazyless]

Attention, all you Lake Winnipesaukee WACK-A-DOOZIES:

Going 45-mph in a boat on Lake Winnipesaukee is VERY fast and going any faster is totally WACK-A-DOOZIE!

Driving Rt 93 at 100-mph and driving Lake Winnipesaukee at speeds above 45-mph is totally WACK-A-DOOZIE ........ (period). .....

For all the sail boaters, kayaks, sup's, canoes, rowboats, and normal motor boats ...... the go fast - be loud boaters are a WACK-A-DOOZIE safety issue.

So, don't be a WACK-A-DOOZIE and obey the 45-mph speed limit!

[BroadHopper]

My opinion and a number of seasoned boaters who have been on the lake for decades can and will agree that the lake is more dangerous as the years go by. Overcrowdenous and lack of common sense are worst! I'm glad I am able to enjoy the other Lakes Region lakes on the weekends while the 'pesaukee yahoos take over. Off-season Winnipesaukee is OK.

Now if we can enforce the current laws and make the safety course more stringent with a refresher course every few years, it will go a long way.

Adding more laws without enforcement does not work!

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

My opinion and a number of seasoned boaters who have been on the lake for decades can and will agree that the lake is more dangerous as the years go by. Overcrowdenous and lack of common sense are worst! I'm glad I am able to enjoy the other Lakes Region lakes on the weekends while the 'pesaukee yahoos take over. Off-season Winnipesaukee is OK.

Now if we can enforce the current laws and make the safety course more stringent with a refresher course every few years, it will go a long way.

Adding more laws without enforcement does not work!

I agree. Looking at the crowds on the water today, the last thing I think should happen is to get rid of the speed limit. If it were up to me (and I know it isn't) I would add resources ($$$) to the marine patrol to enable them to better enforce existing laws, create a stricter education/license program, and greatly increase the registration/lake fees on boats larger than 25 feet to help fund things. Popular and realistic? No.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Attention, all you Lake Winnipesaukee WACK-A-DOOZIES:

Going 45-mph in a boat on Lake Winnipesaukee is VERY fast and going any faster is totally WACK-A-DOOZIE!

Driving Rt 93 at 100-mph and driving Lake Winnipesaukee at speeds above 45-mph is totally WACK-A-DOOZIE ........ (period). .....

For all the sail boaters, kayaks, sup's, canoes, rowboats, and normal motor boats ...... the go fast - be loud boaters are a WACK-A-DOOZIE safety issue.

So, don't be a WACK-A-DOOZIE and obey the 45-mph speed limit!

I think the word is WACK-A-DOODLE. I'd look it up but my dictionary does not speak Jive.

[fatlazyless]

While it's not a dictionary word, wack-a-doozie is all about how it sounds, especially when used with multi-syllable Lake Winnipesaukee.

Is a slang word..... wack-a ..... wack-a ..... wack-a .....out there on Lake Winnipesaukee ..... it's a wack-a-doozie type of a day! .....

Is Slang as Swell as It Used to Be? ........... Yas! ....... http://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/22/op...ell-slang.html

[lakewinnie]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Zero? Really? You need to get your facts straight. Wonder how that swimmer did?


State of New Hampshire
DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY
Robert L. Quinn, Commissioner of Safety
Division of State Police
James H. Hayes Safety Building, 33 Hazen Drive, Concord, NH 03305

Colonel Nathan A. Noyes
Director



February 3, 2022


The following accidents have been identified as being related to speeds potentially in excess of limits set by RSA 270-D:2 X:

2013
July 7th 5:00 pm Operator of PWC (Personal Watercraft) fell into handle bars 45 mph
July 20th 8:00am Operator struck underwater object and boat sunk 45 mph

2015
August 23rd 8:17am Powerboat struck swimmer 65+mph

2018
September 2nd 2:56pm PWC fall over board 50 mph


Sincerely,

Timothy C. Dunleavy
Marine Patrol Captain

"related to speeds potentially in excess of limits..."

I would need to know more about these three accidents to conclude that they were due to boats going over 45 mph day/30 mph night. Are these basically all of the fatal accidents where the boat/PWC was going over the speed limit? If so, thus the qualifier "potentially".

Everyone here knows that a boat going slower than the speed limit can kill a swimmer.

I don't find these statistics compelling one way of the other, without knowing more about these accidents.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Sorry Woodsy...Karel Crawford is from Moultonboro and voted to kill the bill. Not that that matters...people from all parts of the state boat on Winnipesaukee and like you have their own opinions. And as said, 11 years ago greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake supported the speed limit.

And I was pleased to learn that the Lake Winnipesaukee Association and Lakes Region Conservation Trust have formally opposed the bill. And the NH Lakes Association. And the Lake Winni Sailing Assoc. And the NH Lakes Advisory Board. And 6 Winni marinas, one of whose owners spoke at the Trans. Comm. hearing. Check out the testimony, it's quite easy, all videotaped and available online. It is quite compelling.

I edited my post accordingly... thanks for pointing that out.

Like I said above I personally don't worry too much about the speed limit.

Speed limits on the roadways don't stop people from buying sports cars like a Porsche or a Corvette and driving them faster than allowed. I don't think a speed limit on the lake stops people from buying fast boats and driving them faster than allowed either.

Now if the economy tanks or hi-test gas gets ridiculous... then you might see the folks with those boats slow down a little.

Woodsy