New Construction in the Lakes Region

[Boundary]

Hi All,

It has been interesting to follow the residential construction that has gone on in the lakes region since the beginning of the pandemic. It seems there is an increased demand for residential real estate in the lakes region and developments are finally starting to come online to meet some of that demand.

I figured it would be interesting to compile those developments in one thread to get a sense of the number of new units the region is looking at in the coming year.

What is everyone seeing out there? If you know of any developments not included in the list below please share and we can add to the list. Here are a few developments I have come across.

Lakeside at Paugus Bay (Laconia): 32 high end condo units to be sold. Construction currently underway and it appears many are already under agreement.

Turner Way (Laconia): 5+ house lots have been cleared and construction started on a handful of these single family homes

Laconia downtown - old holy trinity school (Laconia): 14 1-2 bedroom market rate apartment units. Planning under way - construction to start soon

Laconia downtown - colonial theater 8-10 market rate apartments / condos. Currently under construction

Lilac valley estates (Laconia): 37 single family houses built recently, 35 additional in process so 72+ total. I believe these are all being held as single family rental units.

Brook Hill condos (route 3 Meredith): 70 new condo units currently under construction. Seems prices are currently in the 400-500k.

Sterling Dr. (Laconia): They have built 6+ houses in this development this year. Plenty more house lots available but it appears they are building as the lots go under agreement.

I am in the Laconia / Meredith area hence the developments listed above are centered around there. Just based on the projects above there are 200+ new units coming online. But it seems the region certainly could use them based on the lack of rentals / housing inventory currently available.

Does anyone else know of any interesting new construction going on in the lakes region to add to the list?

[joey2665]

Meredith Bay will have roughly 1/2 of it's 129 lots remaining for new home builds

[Descant]

Sandy Point Condo conversion?

[Boundary]

Has sandy point sale closed? last I heard there was some interest but the sale hadn't closed / no formal plans submitted?

[Boundary]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Meredith Bay will have roughly 1/2 of it's 129 lots remaining for new home builds

That's right! Good call - there has been quite a lot of new development in Meredith Bay. good to know they have house lots available going forward, too.

Any word on the timing of the Meredith bay condo units and if/when construction will start? I believe they have approval to put up the final 72 units?

Majority of the resale condo's at MB that were listed in the past 2 years seem to be selling north of ask.. so the demand seems to be there at least in the current market.

[XCR-700]

Any one else notice the crappy materials they are using on the new construction, and the shoddy workmanship even on the most expensive of homes.

Garbage like zipboards and such, and then go look at the framing work, half the nails shot but the guys dont hit the board on the other side,,,

Good luck to people who buy them 20 years down the road, there will likely be lots of rebuilding going on.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Boundary

That's right! Good call - there has been quite a lot of new development in Meredith Bay. good to know they have house lots available going forward, too.

Any word on the timing of the Meredith bay condo units and if/when construction will start? I believe they have approval to put up the final 72 units?

Majority of the resale condo's at MB that were listed in the past 2 years seem to be selling north of ask.. so the demand seems to be there at least in the current market.

I have not heard but I can tell yu NONE of the existing town homes or condos and available

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Any one else notice the crappy materials they are using on the new construction, and the shoddy workmanship even on the most expensive of homes.

Garbage like zipboards and such, and then go look at the framing work, half the nails shot but the guys dont hit the board on the other side,,,

Good luck to people who buy them 20 years down the road, there will likely be lots of rebuilding going on.

You get what you pay for!!! In MB the homes are completely customizable or you can purchase the lot and build yourself, if you build yourself the plans must be approved by the architectural review board (not a difficult process, the home just has to fit into the theme of the community for style and color)

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by joey2665

You get what you pay for!!!

I guess thats my point, most of these people are NOT getting what they think they are paying for.

You shop around for a reputable builder and pay a fortune to get what you think is good quality, only to find too many builders use low cost materials and pocket the savings. Most of these people wont own the homes 10 years down the road when the problems start popping up, its the second and third owners that find out their OSB/Zipboard doesnt hold nails well, or is swelling from water intrusion, or the frame is buckling or floor lifting or roof flexing because the kids with nail guns only landed every 5th nail into something on the other side.

When we built our house 7ish years ago and I talked to several builders about materials, some wouldn't even discuss what they used, and the few that did were not interested in what you wanted (for example choosing actual plywood over OSB for sub-floors or exterior walls and roof). I was ultimately able to build our home with the materials I wanted and the cost difference was not significant to upgrade to better materials/windows/etc but the builder questioned me every time I asked for an upgrade as if it was just a waste of money to upgrade. In the end I got what I wanted, but only because I knew what to ask for. Most people not familiar with the business and materials do not get what they think they are paying for when they build an expensive home and expect it to include top shelf materials, unless they specify those materials and make sure there are no substitutes.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I guess thats my point, most of these people are NOT getting what they think they are paying for.

You shop around for a reputable builder and pay a fortune to get what you think is good quality, only to find too many builders use low cost materials and pocket the savings. Most of these people wont own the homes 10 years down the road when the problems start popping up, its the second and third owners that find out their OSB/Zipboard doesnt hold nails well, or is swelling from water intrusion, or the frame is buckling or floor lifting or roof flexing because the kids with nail guns only landed every 5th nail into something on the other side.

When we built our house 7ish years ago and I talked to several builders about materials, some wouldn't even discuss what they used, and the few that did were not interested in what you wanted (for example choosing actual plywood over OSB for sub-floors or exterior walls and roof). I was ultimately able to build our home with the materials I wanted and the cost difference was not significant to upgrade to better materials/windows/etc but the builder questioned me every time I asked for an upgrade as if it was just a waste of money to upgrade. In the end I got what I wanted, but only because I knew what to ask for. Most people not familiar with the business and materials do not get what they think they are paying for when they build an expensive home and expect it to include top shelf materials, unless they specify those materials and make sure there are no substitutes.

It’s all about education. If you are buying a spec home you need to ask the questions of the types of materials used although you can change them it’s your choice to buy or not to buy. If you’re building custom and selecting your builder again you need to ask the questions and choose the materials that you want to use although they may cost more money you need to make the choices that are best for you which might be in giving up on the luxuries or upgrades


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[tis]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I guess thats my point, most of these people are NOT getting what they think they are paying for.

You shop around for a reputable builder and pay a fortune to get what you think is good quality, only to find too many builders use low cost materials and pocket the savings. Most of these people wont own the homes 10 years down the road when the problems start popping up, its the second and third owners that find out their OSB/Zipboard doesnt hold nails well, or is swelling from water intrusion, or the frame is buckling or floor lifting or roof flexing because the kids with nail guns only landed every 5th nail into something on the other side.

When we built our house 7ish years ago and I talked to several builders about materials, some wouldn't even discuss what they used, and the few that did were not interested in what you wanted (for example choosing actual plywood over OSB for sub-floors or exterior walls and roof). I was ultimately able to build our home with the materials I wanted and the cost difference was not significant to upgrade to better materials/windows/etc but the builder questioned me every time I asked for an upgrade as if it was just a waste of money to upgrade. In the end I got what I wanted, but only because I knew what to ask for. Most people not familiar with the business and materials do not get what they think they are paying for when they build an expensive home and expect it to include top shelf materials, unless they specify those materials and make sure there are no substitutes.

You are so right!!

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by tis

You are so right!!

Its not a good situation. I guess the only consolation is most of the homes we are talking about will be owned by very well off people and if anyone can afford to rebuild them in the future when they start falling apart, it will we the folks with deep pockets.

Its not right, but I guess its just how the world works.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Its not a good situation. I guess the only consolation is most of the homes we are talking about will be owned by very well off people and if anyone can afford to rebuild them in the future when they start falling apart, it will we the folks with deep pockets.

Its not right, but I guess its just how the world works.

I honestly would not say people buying these homes necessarily have deep pockets. Remember you can buy a million dollar home with 250k down doesn’t mean your pockets are deep.


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[John Mercier]

And materials change dramatically from year-to-year.
A ''reputable'' builder is not always a ''certified'' builder, so they may not be using the newest information on when to use a material or how to properly apply it.

I can name a couple dozen contractors that will build you a TREX deck.
I can only name one that is ''certified'' to do so.

Just to sell the material is hours of classes each year.
Some salespeople will take the classes, some won't... some will pay attention, others won't.

Any sort of ''engineered'' product gets re-engineered over time.
How up-to-date is the builder and their team?

[tis]

There are lots of excellent builders around the lake who build great houses with the best materials and don't take shortcuts. But it is hard for the average person to know, money or not.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by tis

There are lots of excellent builders around the lake who build great houses with the best materials and don't take shortcuts. But it is hard for the average person to know, money or not.

I absolutely agree. When taking on the task of purchasing or building a new home research and education is the key. It’s a tremendous investment take your time to make the best decisions possible for your new home. They are so many options and considerations.


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[tbonies]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Any one else notice the crappy materials they are using on the new construction, and the shoddy workmanship even on the most expensive of homes.

Garbage like zipboards and such, and then go look at the framing work, half the nails shot but the guys dont hit the board on the other side,,,

Good luck to people who buy them 20 years down the road, there will likely be lots of rebuilding going on.

Was wondering when Mr. Sunshine would show up. Didn't take long..

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I honestly would not say people buying these homes necessarily have deep pockets. Remember you can buy a million dollar home with 250k down doesn’t mean your pockets are deep.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I'm sure we are not talking about the same homes, the "million" dollar homes are the working class, the ones being built probably spend more than a million of the breaker, dock and beach. Then another million on all the retaining walls needed to turn 3 lots into one mcmansion lot with parking for 20 cars. And then plop a multi million dollar home on the lot, landscape it, furniture, etc,,, Must be at least $10+ million with the cost of the land, maybe double that is some cases. All for a home used for potentially 4 months on every other Saturday. Yup, those are deep pockets for sure, no doubt in my mind. Most are probably paid for by some trust, or corporate account, or other means as people with real money have zero income and pay zero taxes, its all done in ways not accessible to the regular joe.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

And materials change dramatically from year-to-year.
A ''reputable'' builder is not always a ''certified'' builder, so they may not be using the newest information on when to use a material or how to properly apply it.

I can name a couple dozen contractors that will build you a TREX deck.
I can only name one that is ''certified'' to do so.

Just to sell the material is hours of classes each year.
Some salespeople will take the classes, some won't... some will pay attention, others won't.

Any sort of ''engineered'' product gets re-engineered over time.
How up-to-date is the builder and their team?

Agreed, some materials are amazing such a laminated beams, and others are crap like zip-board.

I love seeing multi-million dollar homes made with OSB and zip-board, you know it will be guaranteed work for contractors in the future. And I dont even want to spend any effort debating the horrible smell and potential health impact those materials have on full time occupants,,,

For all the fuss about getting VOC's out of things like floor poly, they were for the most part fast drying and not a problem a few weeks later, but OSB and other engineered products off-gas at a lower level for a much longer time. I can go into most newer homes and still smell OSB and new carpet sometimes 2 years later,,,

New tech is not always better,,,

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I'm sure we are not talking about the same homes, the "million" dollar homes are the working class, the ones being built probably spend more than a million of the breaker, dock and beach. Then another million on all the retaining walls needed to turn 3 lots into one mcmansion lot with parking for 20 cars. And then plop a multi million dollar home on the lot, landscape it, furniture, etc,,, Must be at least $10+ million with the cost of the land, maybe double that is some cases. All for a home used for potentially 4 months on every other Saturday. Yup, those are deep pockets for sure, no doubt in my mind. Most are probably paid for by some trust, or corporate account, or other means as people with real money have zero income and pay zero taxes, its all done in ways not accessible to the regular joe.

I sense a very bitter tone to your posts in this thread. Oh well. Again no matter the cost an educated homeowner that does their research will not have this issues on any income level

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I sense a very bitter tone to your posts in this thread. Oh well. Again no matter the cost an educated homeowner that does their research will not have this issues on any income level

Bitter, not me, I didnt get ripped off, but disappointed and annoyed by what I see, yup 100%.

I never like seeing nonsense like this, but I guess in the end its buyer beware, not other common sense protections exist against paying top dollar and being sold crap,,,

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Agreed, some materials are amazing such a laminated beams, and others are crap like zip-board.

I love seeing multi-million dollar homes made with OSB and zip-board, you know it will be guaranteed work for contractors in the future. And I dont even want to spend any effort debating the horrible smell and potential health impact those materials have on full time occupants,,,

For all the fuss about getting VOC's out of things like floor poly, they were for the most part fast drying and not a problem a few weeks later, but OSB and other engineered products off-gas at a lower level for a much longer time. I can go into most newer homes and still smell OSB and new carpet sometimes 2 years later,,,

New tech is not always better,,,

The problem with Zip would be the tape. Even applied as prescribed... the tape has a limited lifetime. But usually, it is the application rather than the product. When applied and rolled correctly, with the cost of labor, it may cost even more than the traditional sheathing and WRB with the overlap not requiring the adhesive strength to direct the water down and out.

They see it used on programs like TOH, not realizing that the representative is there behind the camera, and that the builder then places another material over the zip... like a Homeslicker or CedarBreather before applying siding/roofing.
I've seen people try to use Hydrogap, or a similar product, over it... but that can trap vapor between the layers... and in our frost/thaw environment, not good.

People that get continuing education generally learn of the failures and suggested fixes to the problem... others just keep doing it as they always have... and that may be good enough to cover the length of their warranty period... but not the most up-to-date solution.

[Biggd]

Many of the old camps around the lakes weren't exactly quality built either.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Many of the old camps around the lakes weren't exactly quality built either.

LOL, that's true! And they are still around, aren't they!!

[winterh]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I'm sure we are not talking about the same homes, the "million" dollar homes are the working class, the ones being built probably spend more than a million of the breaker, dock and beach. Then another million on all the retaining walls needed to turn 3 lots into one mcmansion lot with parking for 20 cars. And then plop a multi million dollar home on the lot, landscape it, furniture, etc,,, Must be at least $10+ million with the cost of the land, maybe double that is some cases. All for a home used for potentially 4 months on every other Saturday. Yup, those are deep pockets for sure, no doubt in my mind. Most are probably paid for by some trust, or corporate account, or other means as people with real money have zero income and pay zero taxes, its all done in ways not accessible to the regular joe.

The only criticism I have for some of these big houses is when they don't take into account how the landscaping and fertilizer is damaging to water quality. Some are ugly (to me) but many are beautiful and well done. The stuff about how its all trust funds and they pay no taxes is crazy talk from the jealous and bitter. I know quite a few of these folks and they worked damn hard for their money and paid more than their fair share of taxes.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by tis

LOL, that's true! And they are still around, aren't they!!

They are but not without a lot of love!

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by winterh

The only criticism I have for some of these big houses is when they don't take into account how the landscaping and fertilizer is damaging to water quality. Some are ugly (to me) but many are beautiful and well done. The stuff about how its all trust funds and they pay no taxes is crazy talk from the jealous and bitter. I know quite a few of these folks and they worked damn hard for their money and paid more than their fair share of taxes.

So you know people who actually worked hard saved their pennies and build $10M+ summer homes they dont use very often?

Must be a unique segment of our society.

Most of the people I know with that kind of cash, sit on boards as directors running good businesses into the ground and/or have executive positions were they never did an honest days work in their life. But I suppose its possible some owners of $10M+ summer homes that they dont make much use of actually did an honest days work in their lifetime. Not many, but a few might exist. You can usually tell the ones who worked for a living, as when they get their dream house, they make use of it and enjoy it. Not have caretakers spending more time there then they do themselves.

As for jealous and bitter, maybe annoyed and confused is more correct, but as a working man who actually works way too much, I barely have time to keep up my only home let alone even coordinate with a property management group to care for a summer home I wouldnt use. So not not jealous and bitter. It actually makes little sense to me. But it keeps the economy going, so I guess its better that these folks piss their money away on something they are not using than keeping it in their mattress. :-)

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

So you know people who actually worked hard saved their pennies and build $10M+ summer homes they dont use very often?

Must be a unique segment of our society.

Most of the people I know with that kind of cash, sit on boards as directors running good businesses into the ground and/or have executive positions were they never did an honest days work in their life. But I suppose its possible some owners of $10M+ summer homes that they dont make much use of actually did an honest days work in their lifetime. Not many, but a few might exist. You can usually tell the ones who worked for a living, as when they get their dream house, they make use of it and enjoy it. Not have caretakers spending more time there then they do themselves.

As for jealous and bitter, maybe annoyed and confused is more correct, but as a working man who actually works way too much, I barely have time to keep up my only home let alone even coordinate with a property management group to care for a summer home I wouldnt use. So not not jealous and bitter. It actually makes little sense to me. But it keeps the economy going, so I guess its better that these folks piss their money away on something they are not using than keeping it in their mattress. :-)

Some people work smarter, not harder. That doesn't mean they didn't earn what they have. They have every right to spend it the way they want to.
The complaint should fall to the town building departments that allow these McMansions along the shoreline. They have the power to control the building sprawl.
But then you get into too much government oversite, which riles up the masses.
They seem to be able to manage it on Squam lake but Winni is like a wild animal that's out of control right now.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Some people work smarter, not harder. That doesn't mean they didn't earn what they have. They have every right to spend it the way they want to.
The complaint should fall to the town building departments that allow these McMansions along the shoreline. They have the power to control the building sprawl.
But then you get into too much government oversite, which riles up the masses.
They seem to be able to manage it on Squam lake but Winni is like a wild animal that's out of control right now.

Like I said it fuels the economy and in truth most of these people are never around so in some ways its a win - win.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The problem with Zip would be the tape. Even applied as prescribed... the tape has a limited lifetime. But usually, it is the application rather than the product. When applied and rolled correctly, with the cost of labor, it may cost even more than the traditional sheathing and WRB with the overlap not requiring the adhesive strength to direct the water down and out.

They see it used on programs like TOH, not realizing that the representative is there behind the camera, and that the builder then places another material over the zip... like a Homeslicker or CedarBreather before applying siding/roofing.
I've seen people try to use Hydrogap, or a similar product, over it... but that can trap vapor between the layers... and in our frost/thaw environment, not good.

People that get continuing education generally learn of the failures and suggested fixes to the problem... others just keep doing it as they always have... and that may be good enough to cover the length of their warranty period... but not the most up-to-date solution.

The problem with zip-board is its an inferior product designed to cut costs, not to be a better sheathing. Its a step down from plywood, as plywood was a step down from planks, and boards are a step down from solid log homes.

It loads the framing with almost 50% greater weight, it off-gasses horrible smelling fumes, its less tolerant of installer errors, and so on,,,

But again, it fuels the economy so someone wins.

I personally wouldnt use it on my shed, but if someone else whats to use it or settle for it on their home it has no impact on me so best of luck and as someone selling product, I doubt it makes any difference to you what product they buy. If they buy one that fails 10 years down the road, you get to sell them the replacement, so again, its good for the economy.

Not too much more to say about it, and as previously stated, some engineered products are truly all we hope them to be.

[jogator1]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

So you know people who actually worked hard saved their pennies and build $10M+ summer homes they dont use very often?

Must be a unique segment of our society.

Most of the people I know with that kind of cash, sit on boards as directors running good businesses into the ground and/or have executive positions were they never did an honest days work in their life. But I suppose its possible some owners of $10M+ summer homes that they dont make much use of actually did an honest days work in their lifetime. Not many, but a few might exist. You can usually tell the ones who worked for a living, as when they get their dream house, they make use of it and enjoy it. Not have caretakers spending more time there then they do themselves.

As for jealous and bitter, maybe annoyed and confused is more correct, but as a working man who actually works way too much, I barely have time to keep up my only home let alone even coordinate with a property management group to care for a summer home I wouldnt use. So not not jealous and bitter. It actually makes little sense to me. But it keeps the economy going, so I guess its better that these folks piss their money away on something they are not using than keeping it in their mattress. :-)

So on one hand you are questioning whether Winterh actually "knows" these people and 2 sentences later you writing about all the people you know with that kind of cash?

Don't confuse being annoyed and confused with jealous and bitter. You may think it sounds better but it is still bitterness stemming from jealousy. Maybe you should get to know somebody's core character before you judge them on something as superficial as their house or bank account.

[John Mercier]

Zip cost more than plywood. 7/16 Zip is about $30, while 15/32 CDX is $26.40

Doing the job less expensive would be 7/16 OSB ($15.60) with a separate WRB based on siding choice.

And the oldest camps/cottages around here are built siding on stud with wind bracing.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Zip cost more than plywood. 7/16 Zip is about $30, while 15/32 CDX is $26.40

Doing the job less expensive would be 7/16 OSB ($15.60) with a separate WRB based on siding choice.

And the oldest camps/cottages around here are built siding on stud with wind bracing.

Those are really good prices, you dont get these down here,,, Smart shoppers should be doing business with you and saving a bundle as the "box stores" charge considerably more.

That said, if you only look at the cost of the sheathing you fail to take into account the cost of the Tyvek and the labor to install it.

Builders are not using zip board because its better.

Construction is a complex business and unfortunately far too many people do not get what they paid for and fly by night contractors take the money and run. Hard to find home builders who have been in business for 20+ years under the same name and not been through several big law suits. Even less so for their subs like framing teams, they seem to come and go like used car lots.

[SAB1]

While there are always arguments on each side about building products some people over react and get sucked into believing others opinions just because they heard it from a “reputable builder”. I agree with Mr. Mercer. This summer Zip was more than ply sheathing. Is it better or worse than plywood…time will tell. Everyone always jumped on OSB. Was it as good as plywood, no but I can say I built my house in Rowley back in 1994 and it was sheathed with OSB. I stripped and resided it back in 2015 and the OSB looked like it did when it was hung and had no issues right up through last falls sale of that home.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by jogator1

So on one hand you are questioning whether Winterh actually "knows" these people and 2 sentences later you writing about all the people you know with that kind of cash?

Don't confuse being annoyed and confused with jealous and bitter. You may think it sounds better but it is still bitterness stemming from jealousy. Maybe you should get to know somebody's core character before you judge them on something as superficial as their house or bank account.

Out of the woodwork comes a protagonist to solve the disagreement. Wonderful. And so much productive insight. I will consider your engaged perspective,,,

Yup, no, still happy with my perspective and still not bitter, no reason to be as wealthy people who dont really work for a living but spent tons of money to keep a beautiful property at Winnipesaukee they virtually never use dont harm me in the least. Quite to the opposite, their spending and tax dollars are good for the local economy, and its less people on the water for me to deal with, so no harm to me. And I get to take friends out in the boat and look at and laugh at how the wealthy live. (and if they so desire the wealthy people can get in their cars and drive by my house any time they want and see how stupid workaholics live and laugh at my lifestyle spending money on riding mowers to cut my own lawn and that I wash my own cars and such. I am not offended in the least)

Mine are simply observations off the cuff comments, and I have a lot of them. You are certainly entitled not like them and to your own observations and opinions and though I may not agree, I dont hold it against you. But if you think you see any blood pressure or disgruntled feelings, all I can say is your welcome to read into to what you want and say what you want, it will have little impact on my position or generate any concern on my part about what you think of my comments. Maybe those who think they see bitter are because they see some reflection of their own bitterness. Or maybe not,,, Sorry, its not important enough to me to get too worked up either way.

So enjoy the cat-bird seat, its a great view ;-)

ATB

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by SAB1

While there are always arguments on each side about building products some people over react and get sucked into believing others opinions just because they heard it from a “reputable builder”. I agree with Mr. Mercer. This summer Zip was more than ply sheathing. Is it better or worse than plywood…time will tell. Everyone always jumped on OSB. Was it as good as plywood, no but I can say in 1996 I built my house in Rowley back in 1994 and it was sheathed with OSB. I stripped and resided it back in 2015 and the OSB looked like it did when it was hung and had no issues right up through last falls sale of that home.

Totally agree about the undue influence from alleged builder/experts, most of whom were not in business 5 years ago under the same name.

As for OSB vs CDX, I wish it were as simple as just comparing the same size sheet of raw material, unfortunately its way more complex than that and you are still forgetting the Tyvek wrap cost and cost to install it.

Glad OSB worked well for you, maybe you had a good installer, maybe you were smart enough to not pressure wash your exterior and do it by spraying downwards not upwards, maybe you used 2 x 6 framing 16" on center and and didnt heavily load a 2 x 4 framing that was 24" on center, maybe you didnt add a lot of exterior features that relied on anchoring directly into the OSB sheathing, maybe you were not sensitive to the OSB off-gassing, ETC, Etc, etc. And so if all that was the case, then OSB was a good choice for you and either saved you a few dollars or allowed your builder to profit a few dollars more. Both are not bad.

I simply state that CDX and Tyvek are better overall choices than OSB or zip-board and should be the material you would expect to see in a multi-million dollar home construction. If any owner or the builder intentionally chose OSB or zip-board it has ZERO impact of me. I dont sell either product, I dont own stock in either product, I no longer have any connection to the construction industry, and I am not in the market for another home. But if I were, I can assure you I would be demanding to know what materials were used in the construction of said house, and it would be a major point of consideration if OSB or zip-board were used and where. Some places are easy to remedy in maintenance later, such as roof or exterior sheeting, some are nightmares such as sub-floors,,,

In the end its academic to me, as I have stated Im not in the market for a home and not renovating a home with OSB or Zip-Board, I simply observe its use in big dollar construction projects and think how sad to spend all that money and get a lessor product in its materials. To me its the new equivalent to aluminum wiring that was once hyped as a miracle product and look how that ended.

ATB

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Those are really good prices, you dont get these down here,,, Smart shoppers should be doing business with you and saving a bundle as the "box stores" charge considerably more.

That said, if you only look at the cost of the sheathing you fail to take into account the cost of the Tyvek and the labor to install it.

Builders are not using zip board because its better.

Construction is a complex business and unfortunately far too many people do not get what they paid for and fly by night contractors take the money and run. Hard to find home builders who have been in business for 20+ years under the same name and not been through several big law suits. Even less so for their subs like framing teams, they seem to come and go like used car lots.

Tyvek would add about $7-9 per sheet; but you hit on it for the labor. The party contracting for the building is looking for the cheapest price for the largest square footage... they figure a 30 year warranty when done correctly, it better than a 10 year warranty when done correctly... and see the lower cost in labor that is hard to come by. Hence why they don't ask for OSB with a separate WRB, which would be less expensive in materials... but more in labor. It may be close to the same price, but they don't realize how many rules will void that 30 year warranty... the labor must be very precise.

Smaller homes with higher grades of construction in both materials and labor are just not currently in-demand. It would be like having lake front property where the house is set too far back to be open and well seen by the lake. If the people on the lake can't see the house, the people in the house can't readily see the lake... they would need to go outside and walk down to the shore... not in-demand.

One of the Zip products that I am looking at is the R Zip. They are looking to change the building code to require insulation beyond the studs to create a thermal break. Around window and doors this would be a ThermalBuck... they have a complete system that we are currently comparing to the R Zip that is on our buildings. We don't have an answer for customers yet... but we researching the systems. If that becomes code, it will be a big change for most of us.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Tyvek would add about $7-9 per sheet; but you hit on it for the labor. The party contracting for the building is looking for the cheapest price for the largest square footage... they figure a 30 year warranty when done correctly, it better than a 10 year warranty when done correctly... and see the lower cost in labor that is hard to come by. Hence why they don't ask for OSB with a separate WRB, which would be less expensive in materials... but more in labor. It may be close to the same price, but they don't realize how many rules will void that 30 year warranty... the labor must be very precise.

Smaller homes with higher grades of construction in both materials and labor are just not currently in-demand. It would be like having lake front property where the house is set too far back to be open and well seen by the lake. If the people on the lake can't see the house, the people in the house can't readily see the lake... they would need to go outside and walk down to the shore... not in-demand.

One of the Zip products that I am looking at is the R Zip. They are looking to change the building code to require insulation beyond the studs to create a thermal break. Around window and doors this would be a ThermalBuck... they have a complete system that we are currently comparing to the R Zip that is on our buildings. We don't have an answer for customers yet... but we researching the systems. If that becomes code, it will be a big change for most of us.

Its always interesting to see changes in code, and who benifits and who doesnt and what are the real pros and cons are.

When we built our current home they were required to meet the Massachusetts Stretch Energy Code requirements, some features were good such as heavy insulation in the attic, others were actually not good. It turned out the house was too tight and did not allow enough fresh air in. Something tells me that any house that tight is too tight. With all the products we bring into our homes that off-gas really nasty products, a super tight home may save you a few dollars in heat but then cause you serious health problems. Not a good trade off. I would much rather a balance toward a bit leaky than too tight. We also found some requirements were reversed just after the house was done, stupid things that still annoy me and never should have been a requirement.

I guess to some degree we should be happy to be able to have such things to discuss and debate and potentially complain about. All you have to do is watch the news for 5 minutes and see the total madness in the world around us to realize just how different things are in other places.

[John Mercier]

Well, I only have to deal with it for a few more months.
The reason I love garden and landscape is the simplicity.

I resigned in April... but they talked me into giving them another year to train others so they would have a replacement.

I'm one of those ''trust fund'' people that are not always understood. I do things to keep busy, and employment is more of a hobby than a need. I will always have a job to keep busy, and I tend toward things that I have passion for... so I get pretty ''wonky'' on all the details of the products and installations.

[Biggd]

I've remodeled a few houses that have had OSB board sheathing and haven't seen any falling apart or failing to hold nails. Personally I prefer plywood but OSB board seems to hold up well as long as it's not saturated with water.
If you have water leaking in it will eventually shorten the life of any product.
I don't have any experience with Zip Board so I can't speak to it's durability.
As far as toxic smells coming from OSB board or Zip board, I'm sure plywood has the same toxic chemicals.
I would be more concerned with products in the home giving off toxic smells more than exterior sheathing.

[John Mercier]

Zip is OSB with the WRB (think Tyvek, Typar, Rexwrap, etc) already applied.
The problem is that it has more seams to tape, it is harder to flash for penetrations like windows and doors, and if the outer coating is damaged in any way... and not taped over... it will take in water like an OSB with no WRB protection.

https://www.qualitybuilt.com/resourc...pros-and-cons/

If you look toward the bottom of the article, you will see pictures of application issues for each.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Zip is OSB with the WRB (think Tyvek, Typar, Rexwrap, etc) already applied.
The problem is that it has more seams to tape, it is harder to flash for penetrations like windows and doors, and if the outer coating is damaged in any way... and not taped over... it will take in water like an OSB with no WRB protection.

https://www.qualitybuilt.com/resourc...pros-and-cons/

If you look toward the bottom of the article, you will see pictures of application issues for each.

Back in the 80's builders used a lot of OSB board in place of plywood with no covering wrap. I also saw some builders putting clapboards right over 2x6 16"OC exterior walls with no sheathing.
I think if you have wood siding it holds up well. Vinyl siding seems to hold in more moisture which is the killer of sheathing.

[John Mercier]

OSB is less permeable than CDX.
Vinyl siding is more permeable than wood siding.

OSB or CDX with a WRB... vinyl siding can be applied directly.

OSB or CDX with a drainable WRB... should be dipped or back primed, and primed at all cuts; caulked correctly according to manufacturers directions.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

When we built our current home they were required to meet the Massachusetts Stretch Energy Code requirements, some features were good such as heavy insulation in the attic, others were actually not good. It turned out the house was too tight and did not allow enough fresh air in.

You might try an energy recovery ventilator. We had one installed last year--pricey but worth every penny

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

You might try an energy recovery ventilator. We had one installed last year--pricey but worth every penny

His point was that if they had built the house with just a little more natural air exchange... they would not need the extra equipment.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

You might try an energy recovery ventilator. We had one installed last year--pricey but worth every penny

Never heard of it, I'll look into it!

Many Thanks

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

His point was that if they had built the house with just a little more natural air exchange... they would not need the extra equipment.

You are correct, but now I do have a super tight home so some options may help.

Up until now I have dealt with it mostly by keeping a couple windows not fully closed and the family going in an out all day. But overnight it can have a "stuffy feel especially when the HVAC is not running.

Thanks

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

His point was that if they had built the house with just a little more natural air exchange... they would not need the extra equipment.

I understood that. I thought he was struggling with a house already built.

More broadly though--I'm pretty sure that a tight house with an energy recovery ventilator is more comfortable, more economical, and greener than a leaky house. Thus the extra equipment is good

[XCR-700]

If you ever what to hear a horror story about hardwood floor refinishing, we can start another thread,,,

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I understood that. I thought he was struggling with a house already built.

More broadly though--I'm pretty sure that a tight house with an energy recovery ventilator is more comfortable, more economical, and greener than a leaky house. Thus the extra equipment is good

There is an ongoing debate on that subject.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

There is an ongoing debate on that subject.

People can debate until they are blue in the face, and if there is not enough fresh air getting they may end up being blue in the face,,,

But seriously this is a matter of legitimate concern.

I hope people only pay attention to such matter as well as fumes coming out of all the goods we bring into our homes beyond the construction materials.

Most dont know that almost every paper bag is coated in something and the same for clothing. Never wear any new clothing shipped in from over seas unless you wash it first. Way too many goods have been treated to keep insects and rodents from being interested and most of those chemicals are not good for you.

I'm sure some will disagree, so be it,,,

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

People can debate until they are blue in the face, and if there is not enough fresh air getting they may end up being blue in the face,,,

But seriously this is a matter of legitimate concern.

I hope people only pay attention to such matter as well as fumes coming out of all the goods we bring into our homes beyond the construction materials.

Most dont know that almost every paper bag is coated in something and the same for clothing. Never wear any new clothing shipped in from over seas unless you wash it first. Way too many goods have been treated to keep insects and rodents from being interested and most of those chemicals are not good for you.

I'm sure some will disagree, so be it,,,

Sorry,

[John Mercier]

The debate is the best means to achieve the results.

Even on heating cooling... you and I standing in the same room in almost exactly the same conditions may have a different ''comfort level''.

I can consume a beverage - and almost definitely any food - and my comfort level changes.

The same goes for air quality. I am very sensitive to smoke - small particulate matter. Others not so much.

So the debate is a perfect standard, which can never apply universally.
It is why product knowledge and application is so valuable.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

People can debate until they are blue in the face, and if there is not enough fresh air getting they may end up being blue in the face,,,

But seriously this is a matter of legitimate concern.

I hope people only pay attention to such matter as well as fumes coming out of all the goods we bring into our homes beyond the construction materials.

Most dont know that almost every paper bag is coated in something and the same for clothing. Never wear any new clothing shipped in from over seas unless you wash it first. Way too many goods have been treated to keep insects and rodents from being interested and most of those chemicals are not good for you.

I'm sure some will disagree, so be it,,,

And some people just live in fear of everything.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Biggd

And some people just live in fear of everything.

And some people like me, vent a lot about, well almost everything!

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The debate is the best means to achieve the results.

Even on heating cooling... you and I standing in the same room in almost exactly the same conditions may have a different ''comfort level''.

I can consume a beverage - and almost definitely any food - and my comfort level changes.

The same goes for air quality. I am very sensitive to smoke - small particulate matter. Others not so much.

So the debate is a perfect standard, which can never apply universally.
It is why product knowledge and application is so valuable.

Agreed as long as the debate stays on subject and the debaters do not go on personal attacks. In the world of forums and blogs such matters turn personal really quickly. Too quickly,,, Its just so easy to get frustrated and cut lose and too many fall victim to this pitfall.

Its not at all like debating a similar matter in person.

[John Mercier]

It isn't really done on a forum. It is usually member of a particular industry.
This one would be HVAC.

If two people are in a room, and relative humidity is constant... depending on activity and such... their skin surface temperature will be slightly different and they will feel hot or cold.

With air exchange, the same thing.
A certain concentration of a pollutant has differing effects on each of us.
So some may need more exchanges per hour, others less.
And those could vary depending on what the pollutant is.

The industry tries to debate the perfect... but more likely strike a balance for the majority with the understanding that individuals, even in the same household, will differ.

''ASHRAE (formerly called the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers) recommends (in its Standard 62.2-2016, "Ventilation and Acceptable Indoor Air Quality in Residential Buildings") that homes receive 0.35 air changes per hour but not less than 15 cubic feet of air per minute (cfm) per person. as the minimum ventilation rates in residential buildings in order to provide IAQ that is acceptable to human occupants and that minimizes adverse health effects. ASHRAE also suggests intermittent exhaust capacities for kitchens and bathroom exhaust to help control pollutant levels and moisture in those rooms. ASHRAE also notes that "dwellings with tight enclosures may require supplemental ventilation supply for fuel-burning appliances, including fireplaces and mechanically exhausted appliances.''

See how the standard leaves room for more than the standard...
So if you tighten down to the standard, you may be too tight.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I guess thats my point, most of these people are NOT getting what they think they are paying for.

You shop around for a reputable builder and pay a fortune to get what you think is good quality, only to find too many builders use low cost materials and pocket the savings. Most of these people wont own the homes 10 years down the road when the problems start popping up, its the second and third owners that find out their OSB/Zipboard doesnt hold nails well, or is swelling from water intrusion, or the frame is buckling or floor lifting or roof flexing because the kids with nail guns only landed every 5th nail into something on the other side.

When we built our house 7ish years ago and I talked to several builders about materials, some wouldn't even discuss what they used, and the few that did were not interested in what you wanted (for example choosing actual plywood over OSB for sub-floors or exterior walls and roof). I was ultimately able to build our home with the materials I wanted and the cost difference was not significant to upgrade to better materials/windows/etc but the builder questioned me every time I asked for an upgrade as if it was just a waste of money to upgrade. In the end I got what I wanted, but only because I knew what to ask for. Most people not familiar with the business and materials do not get what they think they are paying for when they build an expensive home and expect it to include top shelf materials, unless they specify those materials and make sure there are no substitutes.

Lately, I've been steering folks to Benson Wood in Walpole. Those who have them build are extremely satisfied, even after 10 years! Top local materials and the way they build my gosh, put the stick-built to shame!
The ones that did not listen to me are kicking themselves.
Good Luck!
https://bensonwood.com/

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Lately, I've been steering folks to Benson Wood in Walpole. Those who have them build are extremely satisfied, even after 10 years! Top local materials and the way they build my gosh, put the stick-built to shame!
The ones that did not listen to me are kicking themselves.
Good Luck!
https://bensonwood.com/

Agreed, a quality pre-fab and modular can put an average stick build to shame.

Much tighter quality control, totally protected from the elements while much of the work is done, actually engineered to ensure fitment not just nailed together one board at at time. Many Many benefits.

Not saying a top shelf stick build gives up anything, the problem is finding a top shelf stick builder, but I suppose the same could be said of the pre-fab and modular industry. Many low quality companies out there and some really good ones. I think the big difference is that top quality stick builders are usually backlogged as much as 2 years, and they are almost double the cost of the average builder. Its an interesting market and very busy at the moment.

[John Mercier]

Here they would be sent to PBS... but I am not up-to-date on what their current lead time is.

For the top stick builders, the only way we have to define them is awards from the POH held in October each year.

Some past winners have retired, and some are returning to their roots and slowing down a bit. They would rather renovate existing structures rather than take on whole new builds. With the various extended lead times, that makes more sense to their business model for work/life balance.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Lately, I've been steering folks to Benson Wood in Walpole. Those who have them build are extremely satisfied, even after 10 years! Top local materials and the way they build my gosh, put the stick-built to shame!
The ones that did not listen to me are kicking themselves.
Good Luck!
https://bensonwood.com/

Those are gorgeous! I know nothing about homebuilding or architecture, but I know when proportions are "just right". They have a deep understanding of the math--I almost want to build a house

[John Mercier]

The Golden Rectangle is centuries old. I don't even know who would be given credit for discovering the ratio.

The CAD systems we use generally have algorithms in them that rely on that ratio.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The Golden Rectangle is centuries old. I don't even know who would be given credit for discovering the ratio.

The CAD systems we use generally have algorithms in them that rely on that ratio.

Yes, but extraordinarily few homes are able to convert these so that a person feels like they are sitting in a piece of art--such as the Benson homepage that treats the staircase like a sculpture in a gallery.

This "look at these lovely lines" approach is a very different than we normally see. Most homes with a striking staircase use the staircase to send a message of grandeur or power--think Tara, or Downtown Abbey, or a McMansion. (I don't say this to dis Tara or the others, only to highlight the difference)

[John Mercier]

That would be more of the interior designer at work.
I think you may be looking at the cable rail stairways.