open carry - Market Basket, Plymouth NH

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by YOLO

A gun left in the car is as useful as a condom left in a wrapper. It does you no good when you need protection.

I suggest folks who have an issue with open or concealed carry move to the nanny state to our south. They have a big problem with our Constitution and don't like people defending themselves either.

It's interesting that in 2017 (the first year I saw after a quick Google search) Hawaii, NY, and MA - all with much stricter gun laws than NH - have per capita gun death rates of 3.7 or lower while NH has a per capita gun death rate of 10.4. Alaska, with one of the least restrictive set of gun laws in the country and the highest amount of guns per capita leads the nation in per capita gun deaths.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by tis

Well, I guess if they frighten ya'!!!

Now thats fully!

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Garcia

It's interesting that in 2017 (the first year I saw after a quick Google search) Hawaii, NY, and MA - all with much stricter gun laws than NH - have per capita gun death rates of 3.7 or lower while NH has a per capita gun death rate of 10.4. Alaska, with one of the least restrictive set of gun laws in the country and the highest amount of guns per capita leads the nation in per capita gun deaths.

Higher death by gun rates is not a problem if its the right people who are on the receiving end of the barrel, so your post begs the question were these murders, or shootings by law enforcement of citizens defending against criminals???

Posts like that without all the information are grossly misleading and usually manipulated.

Details matter.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Higher death by gun rates is not a problem if its the right people who are on the receiving end of the barrel, so your post begs the question were these murders, or shootings by law enforcement of citizens defending against criminals???

Posts like that without all the information are grossly misleading and usually manipulated.

Details matter.

The most recent data I could quickly find for gun murder rates was from 2010, and showed that MA was at 1.8 per 100,000 people while it was 0.4 for NH.


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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

The most recent data I could quickly find for gun murder rates was from 2010, and showed that MA was at 1.8 per 100,000 people while it was 0.4 for NH.


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Was that filtered to exclude police shooting and self-defense deaths?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee

I think you are correct. Even many folks made uncomfortable by seeing the guns recognize this seeming irrationality. Although there is also the idea that, true or not, people who open carry are more dangerous.

Unfortunately, instilling fear, willful misinterpretation, and misinformation has played a daily role in many areas of our lives.

Why should the subject of open carry be any different?

The announcement made today by the U.S. Surgeon General can be expected to result in U.S. Intelligence Agencies' monitoring of Americans' text messages.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Was that filtered to exclude police shooting and self-defense deaths?

It didn’t specify.


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[Newbiesaukee]

Originally Posted by ApS

The announcement made today by the U.S. Surgeon General can be expected to result in U.S. Intelligence Agencies' monitoring of Americans' text messages.

Totally off topic.

Speaking of misinformation. I have read the complex 22 page advisory released by Dr. Murthy and I see no reasonable basis for your comment. I admit it’s a lot to digest. Have you read the report or just an interpretation of it?


Whatever your source, it is, at best a stretch or an exaggeration. But I would like to see your reference.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by ApS

The announcement made today by the U.S. Surgeon General can be expected to result in U.S. Intelligence Agencies' monitoring of Americans' text messages.

The Surgeon General doesn't run the NSA.
And the NSA has always monitored electronic communication.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by YOLO

A gun left in the car is as useful as a condom left in a wrapper. It does you no good when you need protection.

I suggest folks who have an issue with open or concealed carry move to the nanny state to our south. They have a big problem with our Constitution and don't like people defending themselves either.

We don't have to. We just choose not to service you as a customer.

You have no constitutional right to be on another person's property, and no constitutional right to be a customer based on a non-protected classification.

Even if you are under some false sense that you do...

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by ApS

The announcement made today by the U.S. Surgeon General can be expected to result in U.S. Intelligence Agencies' monitoring of Americans' text messages.

And what did they say, getting stressed out over forum posts is much more harmful to your health than someone openly carrying a handgun in market basket ;-)

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by YOLO

A gun left in the car is as useful as a condom left in a wrapper. It does you no good when you need protection.

Agreed! But a person's chances of needing a condom in a supermarket are higher than the chances of needing a gun

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Agreed! But a person's chances of needing a condom in a supermarket are higher than the chances of needing a gun

Hahahaha!!!
Having spent the whole of my pubescent years at Purity Supreme, I assure you that that's true.

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[MAXUM]

Can somebody please go into the Plymouth MB sporting a hot pink Ruger LCP holstered on a noodle belt? I really want FLL "feel" better about this.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Can somebody please go into the Plymouth MB sporting a hot pink Ruger LCP holstered on a noodle belt? I really want FLL "feel" better about this.

Now THATs funny!

[dickiej]

Originally Posted by ApS

The announcement made today by the U.S. Surgeon General can be expected to result in U.S. Intelligence Agencies' monitoring of Americans' text messages.

There is a huge Google plant in The Dalles, OR that supposedly scans every text and email sent and received in the country. Thousands of high speed servers scan millions of texts/emails per second, looking for key words, which sends it to another scan. We all better assume that big brother is watching us all the time.

[Mr. V]

Open carry is pretty uncommon here in Portland and its nearby environs, but a lot, and I do mean a lot, of people legally carry concealed.

Easy to get a CWP.

[randalnh]

Looks like this thread is getting off track, so I will try and steer this discussion back to open carry.

Remember where you are. This is the "Live Free or Die" state and some of us do not take that motto lightly. The "Live Free" part only works if we all respect each others rights and do not try to force your will on others because of your personal, irrational fears. If you think it is just a BS motto, do us all a favor and move to another state.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by dickiej

There is a huge Google plant in The Dalles, OR that supposedly scans every text and email sent and received in the country. Thousands of high speed servers scan millions of texts/emails per second, looking for key words, which sends it to another scan. We all better assume that big brother is watching us all the time.

I call somewhat fake news on this claim.

Google does not have access to every text and email sent in and out of this country. They may be doing it on their own mail (gmail) and voice (google talk) platforms and if so shame on them.

Even if they did they would need to have the ability to break the encryption that is used - where it is used. Now for email many providers and companies do not bother encrypting email so it is possible to intercept and read in the clear messages that are sent. Many however do, some go so far as to use multi factor (multiple layers of encryption) and that makes it impossible to read the contents unless the key chain(s) used to encrypt it is available to them which is highly unlikely.

SMS text messages there could be some truth to this as SMS messages are NOT encrypted and thus could be intercepted and read by anyone. That said, anyone who has an Apple device and sends imessages to another Apple user, those messages are sent via encrypted data stream (NOT SMS). They route through the iCloud not your wireless provider. The only thing the wireless provider does is provide the LTE service the data flows over. There is no way Google would have visibility into this. Apple to non apple communications are done via SMS and thus not encrypted.

[The Real BigGuy]

Here is my problem with “open carry”, “concealed carry”, or any carry at all: Most of the people who carry, not all but a significant portion, have gained their skill on a gun range. (Heck, I was pretty good at the range & at the fair’s air gun booth when I was young). They have no experience/training in high stress situations. They have never been in combat. They think they are going to respond like Clint Eastwood to a shooter situation but are more likely to respond like https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_6...b02df1ad873652.

There was a study released a number of years ago (sorry couldn’t find a reference to it now) that said a trained police officer would hit his target less than 20% of the time from 15 ft in a high stress situation. That scares the crap out of me. I don’t want to be one of the innocent bystanders that always seems to get shot.

I’m all for the 2nd Amendment but there needs to be some restraints.


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[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

As my wife would say...I wonder what he's compensating for?

Glad someone pulled the trigger on that one. The hollow point is taken.

As a strict Constitutionalist.

All should follow what the members wrote in the US Constitution.

Dated: September 17, 1787

Any firearms should be ball and powder. Whether hand arm or long arm.

Stick to the US Constitution.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

Here is my problem with “open carry”, “concealed carry”, or any carry at all: Most of the people who carry, not all but a significant portion, have gained their skill on a gun range. (Heck, I was pretty good at the range & at the fair’s air gun booth when I was young). They have no experience/training in high stress situations. They have never been in combat. They think they are going to respond like Clint Eastwood to a shooter situation but are more likely to respond like https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_6...b02df1ad873652.

There was a study released a number of years ago (sorry couldn’t find a reference to it now) that said a trained police officer would hit his target less than 20% of the time from 15 ft in a high stress situation. That scares the crap out of me. I don’t want to be one of the innocent bystanders that always seems to get shot.

I’m all for the 2nd Amendment but there needs to be some restraints.


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Heres my problem with most of the posts on this thread, that are backed up by ZERO data.

So far all we have learned is that open carry at market basket or anywhere else has resulted in near zero problems.

We have ~350 million people in America, how many have been injured as a direct result of open carry???

I see no answers.

More people are suffering the drama of this thread than have likely ever suffered from open carry.

So we are back to peoples preferences. Some people dont like eating in restaurants where families eat and have crying babies. Should we ban then because, infants have week immune systems and their crying is likely spreading germs into the air as their body has little ability to kill the germs off,,,

Everyone has something they dont like.

But with regard to implementing bans, hopefully we dot exercise that option too often and mostly where they is an actual problem. And with open carry, clearly we have not been able to identify any problem except a few people feeling uncomfortable. Is that really sufficient reason to demand action. Really,,,

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Heres my problem with most of the posts on this thread, that are backed up by ZERO data.

So far all we have learned is that open carry at market basket or anywhere else has resulted in near zero problems.

We have ~350 million people in America, how many have been injured as a direct result of open carry???

I see no answers.

More people are suffering the drama of this thread than have likely ever suffered from open carry.

So we are back to peoples preferences. Some people dont like eating in restaurants where families eat and have crying babies. Should we ban then because, infants have week immune systems and their crying is likely spreading germs into the air as their body has little ability to kill the germs off,,,

Everyone has something they dont like.

But with regard to implementing bans, hopefully we dot exercise that option too often and mostly where they is an actual problem. And with open carry, clearly we have not been able to identify any problem except a few people feeling uncomfortable. Is that really sufficient reason to demand action. Really,,,

Here’s an article that looks at the issue, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6203141/.

Where I live and vacation I see no need to carry a gun. There are many who will never agree with me on the issue and I’m comfortable with that.

[mowtorman]

I know a number of Iraq/Afghanistan veterans. One thing they have in common is they carry all day work or play. They are all out here working and contributing after having done their part overseas.

Does anyone want to tell them they can't carry a firearm while having possession of a firearm is perfectly legal?

I didn't get it at first, but some of their points were thought provoking, enough to convince me to keep a firearm at home. I rarely take it out of the house but do on occasion, especially if I don't know what I am getting myself into.

There are so any people carrying weapons in public it is commonplace. Unless someone talks to John Wayne in the cowboy hat or the new young Rambo we will never know their reasons for carrying. Maybe someone could ask them a few questions if so interested next time......what are they gonna do....shoot you while you wait for sliced bologna? If they wanted to shoot you they would just shoot you for no reason. They might be two of the most helpful friendly neighbors you could have, cowboy hat or not, and they might even help you out when that random home invasion character finds your front door open.

So much judgement and speculation with so little information.

[John Mercier]

It really doesn't matter if they agree with you.
Property owners will react based on their own interests.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Here’s an article that looks at the issue, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6203141/.

Where I live and vacation I see no need to carry a gun. There are many who will never agree with me on the issue and I’m comfortable with that.

No idea who these people are or what their goal is in creating this report but this is one of the worst reports I have read in a while.

The bouncing between reasonably current (2012) data (1967) and ancient information and firearms related hospitalizations and NF hospitalizations and the then flipping between state and federal data is a disaster.

There are also challenges about IDing LE shootings vs other. And no accounting for legally owned vs illegally owned guns.

In the end a ban that impacts 40 Million people that allegedly saved 337 lives in 2012 seems like a very poor trade off and there may be better ways to reduce any death rate. But then the report did little to convince me that the prohibition actually resulted in reducing any deaths as it failed to ID that the act of carrying actually resulted in the deaths. Likely any reduction was caused by totally removing firearms from these peoples hands, no the open carry itself. It also does little to convince me that many of those were not deaths due to someone committing a crime. I.E. I have little sympathy for criminals killed while committing a crime.

Ultimately any alleged reduction that equals a number of .0000 anything is not of too much interest when it comes at the cost of restricting countless millions of peoples rights.

Of in other words, this was not very helpful,,,

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by mowtorman

So much judgement and speculation with so little information.

So well said!

Might I also add; so much fear and drama over something that has yet to result in any problem.

So far as we have been able to determine, no one in Market Basket has suffered any harm from open carry. Given all the customers that go through their doors, it seems to be even safer than walking, as occasion someone walking will slip and fall and suffer and actual injury.

So again there we have it, walking is more risky to your actual health than open carry.

Are we done yet?

Probably not much chance,,,

[SAB1]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

Here is my problem with “open carry”, “concealed carry”, or any carry at all: Most of the people who carry, not all but a significant portion, have gained their skill on a gun range. (Heck, I was pretty good at the range & at the fair’s air gun booth when I was young). They have no experience/training in high stress situations. They have never been in combat. They think they are going to respond like Clint Eastwood to a shooter situation but are more likely to respond like https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_6...b02df1ad873652.

There was a study released a number of years ago (sorry couldn’t find a reference to it now) that said a trained police officer would hit his target less than 20% of the time from 15 ft in a high stress situation. That scares the crap out of me. I don’t want to be one of the innocent bystanders that always seems to get shot.

I’m all for the 2nd Amendment but there needs to be some restraints.


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This is actually true and I agree with you. Most knuckleheads out there really don’t know how to shoot and /or invest in the time to do so. Under pressure lots of different things enter the equation.

I’m sure I’ll take heat for it but anyone carrying should pass a back ground test and everyone should qualify on a range to EDC.

[John Mercier]

Business doesn't really focus on someone being shot.
They focus on the psychological effect that it may have on customers (revenue) of employees (expenses).

Every policy, or lack there of, changes those parameters in some way.

For private landowners, not involved in commerce, the parameters are different.

A landowner down the trail from allows all non-motorized access and snowmobiles, but no hunting or target shooting. Signs are posted to specifically restrict wheeled-OHRV *though by law they are not required* and any unauthorized firearms. Since they will not authorize a firearm for hunting or shooting, only law enforcement... the only other time that may have a firearm interacting with those signs would be a trail user carrying - which might happen should someone on foot or horseback/etc be concerned with being confronted with loose dogs from the neighborhood.

Of course, them discovering that trail users are carrying could lead to them closing the trail and access. No one really knows, since no incident has occurred.

[mhtranger]

One thing people don’t realize is that most of us that carry (open or concealed) are not trying to be hero’s. I carry for my families safety, I’m not going to try and be a hero and save the day but know I will do what it take to protect myself and my family. Most likely will be to get out of harms way or hunker down out of site.

As for stores with signs, that is their right to not allow guns in their stores. If concealed correctly you would never be the wiser that one was there.

Training is a must and like others have said not just at the range where most don’t let you draw from a holster. There are many places that have training and would recommend you take at least one course.

It is my right to carry here in NH and will continue to do so. Call it what you will but if something did go wrong……….🤷🏻*♂️

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by mhtranger

One thing people don’t realize is that most of us that carry (open or concealed) are not trying to be hero’s. I carry for my families safety, I’m not going to try and be a hero and save the day but know I will do what it take to protect myself and my family. Most likely will be to get out of harms way or hunker down out of site.

As for stores with signs, that is their right to not allow guns in their stores. If concealed correctly you would never be the wiser that one was there.

Training is a must and like others have said not just at the range where most don’t let you draw from a holster. There are many places that have training and would recommend you take at least one course.

It is my right to carry here in NH and will continue to do so. Call it what you will but if something did go wrong……….*

The thread was started not to condemn carrying so much as open carrying. I've not heard much said—other than personal preference—about concealed carry (probably because of your and other's point that most would never notice).

As I've been reading this thread these last days, I've thought a lot about the number of circumstances in my and my extended family's and friends' lives that would have benefitted from having a weapon, and with all those millions/billions/trillions of moments, there are zero. We live, of course, in among the safest of areas in the world, however, so perhaps I might think differently were I to live elsewhere, but I just don't see the need to carry and definitely don't see the need to be showy about carrying.

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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

The thread was started not to condemn carrying so much as open carrying. I've not heard much said—other than personal preference—about concealed carry (probably because of your and other's point that most would never notice).

As I've been reading this thread these last days, I've thought a lot about the number of circumstances in my and my extended family's and friends' lives that would have benefitted from having a weapon, and with all those millions/billions/trillions of moments, there are zero. We live, of course, in among the safest of areas in the world, however, so perhaps I might think differently were I to live elsewhere, but I just don't see the need to carry and definitely don't see the need to be showy about carrying.

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Actually the OP has advocated several time for prohibition on weapons several times and based on how that advocacy occurred it appeared to be for such restrictions to be in place virtually anywhere he shops. I did not see any support for concealed carry by the OP in the sighs he proposed, if anything the term weapons could be inferred to mean knives, pepper spray, potentially anything that could conceived as a weapon.

I specifically proposed an option to open carry (asking customers to conceal their firearms) which should be reasonable to all, but no one seems interested in that either.

It appears to be a no solution or compromise discussion.

[DEJ]

I hear ya about the zero times in your life you would have benefited from having a firearm, same with me. However look at it this way, the one time you or someone else MIGHT need it you might be glad you had it. Two sides to every story. I carry, not always and hope I never need it.
Glad to read in another thread you are introducing your Son to firearms and I am sure you will get him and yourself all the appropriate training.

[~Haze~]

Originally Posted by DEJ

This thread will not end well.

For who?


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Actually the OP has advocated several time for prohibition on weapons several times and based on how that advocacy occurred it appeared to be for such restrictions to be in place virtually anywhere he shops. I did not see any support for concealed carry by the OP in the sighs he proposed, if anything the term weapons could be inferred to mean knives, pepper spray, potentially anything that could conceived as a weapon.

I specifically proposed an option to open carry (asking customers to conceal their firearms) which should be reasonable to all, but no one seems interested in that either.

It appears to be a no solution or compromise discussion.

From the OP:

"Like, there is a big difference between concealed carry, and open carry in a NH Market Basket with numerous customers throughout the store."

There's definitely been a discussion of "why is a gun needed in the first place," but I've seen the thread as more of an OC vs. CC discussion.

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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by DEJ

I hear ya about the zero times in your life you would have benefited from having a firearm, same with me. However look at it this way, the one time you or someone else MIGHT need it you might be glad you had it. Two sides to every story. I carry, not always and hope I never need it.

Glad to read in another thread you are introducing your Son to firearms and I am sure you will get him and yourself all the appropriate training.

Under that same rationale, though, people can justify carrying ladders. I mean, what if an earthquake hit and we had to climb out of Market Basket? That's happened exactly the same number of times everyone in my whole entire family ever needed a weapon...

Like you added, however, I do think it's important to be knowledgeable about weapons and, honestly, who knows what the future entails. I will admit that I feel a tad bit better about having weapons back in the house (I'd sold all my old ones when the kids came along) as there were some crazy things happening during the Great Recession and afterward. But then I remember that by ammo is stored separately from my guns for the kids' safety...

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[~Haze~]

Originally Posted by swnoel

You either support the Second Amendment or you don't...

That’s not accurate.

There are a number of reasonable people who are completely comfortable with guns in reasonable moderation but some of the arbitrary lines drawn by the organizations, institutions and powers that be might need some readjusting based on logic rather than precedent.

Many of us have guns and do carry without our entire existence, identity, and brain to be consumed by the second amendment.
Granted many gun owners do tend to be “1 issue voters” but not all of us.

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Ones comment on “compensating for something”. I ask you to grow up.

Because no one would ever think that way - seriously or in jest.

Originally Posted by VitaBene

Ha- its the little one! See you this summer, I hope D!!

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[DEJ]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Under that same rationale, though, people can justify carrying ladders. I mean, what if an earthquake hit and we had to climb out of Market Basket? That's happened exactly the same number of times everyone in my whole entire family ever needed a weapon...

Like you added, however, I do think it's important to be knowledgeable about weapons and, honestly, who knows what the future entails. I will admit that I feel a tad bit better about having weapons back in the house (I'd sold all my old ones when the kids came along) as there were some crazy things happening during the Great Recession and afterward. But then I remember that by ammo is stored separately from my guns for the kids' safety...

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The ladder statement is simply silly, you are better than this. Glad you are introducing FIREARMS back into your household.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by DEJ

The ladder statement is simply silly, you are better than this. Glad you are introducing FIREARMS back into your household.

It's not, really, if you're open to what the premise is. In my whole lifetime, in all of my family members' and friends' lifetimes, a carried ladder would have been as beneficial as a gun. I'll go one step further and point out that a huge portion of firearm deaths are accidental.

So, in point of fact, the ladder would be as useful AND safer.

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[DEJ]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

It's not, really, if you're open to what the premise is. In my whole lifetime, in all of my family members' and friends' lifetimes, a carried ladder would have been as beneficial as a gun. I'll go one step further and point out that a huge portion of firearm deaths are accidental.

So, in point of fact, the ladder would be as useful AND safer.

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You win, congratulations I should have known better.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by DEJ

You win, congratulations I should have known better.

Kisses.
I get your point, I do, but at some level statistics matter more than emotion, and that's the world I exist in.

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[DEJ]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Kisses.
I get your point, I do, but at some level statistics matter more than emotion, and that's the world I exist in.

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No emotion here, I pray you are never in a situation where you need it and not have it. Out.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by DEJ

No emotion here, I pray you are never in a situation where you need it and not have it. Out.

And I pray you are never in a situation where you need a ladder and do not.

Ok, ok—I'll accept the blame for being snarky this time, but, ultimately, it's absolutely part of my thought process (the statistics thing, not the needing-a-ladder one).

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[Newbiesaukee]

Originally Posted by DEJ

This thread will not end well.

Actually, not too badly and mostly pretty well. If we end it soon.

[baygo]

Some people may find concern in the company of a stranger with open carry in a store and some people may find concern that the black man in front of them in line is about to hold up the store. What do they have in common?

[Newbiesaukee]

Originally Posted by baygo

Some people may find concern in the company of a stranger with open carry in a store and some people may find concern that the black man in front of them in line is about to hold up the store. What do they have in common?

Best comment so far.

[John Mercier]

Except skin color is a protected class.
If I lose customers or employees because someone with a skin color they don't like is shopping in my store... not really much I can do about that.

But for a non-restricted class... that becomes a different story.
We currently can't afford to lose any employees, and can lose a certain percentage of customers and still have too many.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by baygo

Some people may find concern in the company of a stranger with open carry in a store and some people may find concern that the black man in front of them in line is about to hold up the store. What do they have in common?

You seem to equate going into a store while Black with going into a store while carrying a gun openly. Even if we overlook the racial overtones, one of these people is making a choice/statement, the other is just going to the store

[baygo]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

You seem to equate going into a store while Black with going into a store while carrying a gun openly. Even if we overlook the racial overtones, one of these people is making a choice/statement, the other is just going to the store

No racial overtones involved. My statement/question brings to light the perceived unjust fears in both scenarios. And perhaps it sheads light on hypocrisy.

[John Mercier]

The unjust fears are only a matter of the revenue equation to the person(s) that make the policy decisions.

I can not restrict someone for their skin tone regardless of any negative effect it may have on my customer base... it is a protected class.

While you may not be happy with the unjust fear of the customers, someone carrying a firearm is not a protected class. It is a choice that they are making.
So the policy is enacted by the business owner to protect their revenue, as any lost customer base due to the act is harm to the business owner.
It doesn't matter what the ''emotional'' equation is.

If customer avoided a business because too many Mercedes were parked out front, and the owner felt that was a detriment to their revenue equation, they could enact policy that no Mercedes were to be on their property.

The Mercedes owner may not like it, but they could either choose not to bring the Mercedes, or to shop another business. Mercedes owners are not a protected class.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The unjust fears are only a matter of the revenue equation to the person(s) that make the policy decisions.

I can not restrict someone for their skin tone regardless of any negative effect it may have on my customer base... it is a protected class.

While you may not be happy with the unjust fear of the customers, someone carrying a firearm is not a protected class. It is a choice that they are making.
So the policy is enacted by the business owner to protect their revenue, as any lost customer base due to the act is harm to the business owner.
It doesn't matter what the ''emotional'' equation is.

If customer avoided a business because too many Mercedes were parked out front, and the owner felt that was a detriment to their revenue equation, they could enact policy that no Mercedes were to be on their property.

The Mercedes owner may not like it, but they could either choose not to bring the Mercedes, or to shop another business. Mercedes owners are not a protected class.

So in the end your only goal is to maximize profit? With the singular exception of wishing not to violate the letter of law, you have no other considerations for the operation of your business or how you treat the world?

Its a classic perspective, and I give you credit for being honest. Too often people say one thing and do another. I think its always better to know who you are dealing with. So I do appreciate your truth to your perspective and owning it.

That said, clearly you have not read or didnt buy into Lutz Laws of Business. Might be worth a look, the one about "the Primary Purpose of Business Is Not to Make Money" is of particular interest and especially when considered in todays time period and with an eye for bigger picture.

I suppose this is just another example of the rift that divides America.

It interesting to also note that some people have no concern that the law protects people of color (and other groups), they simply treat these people like anyone else regardless of the impact to the business, as they believe its just the right thing to do, not because the law requires it. The same holds true of open carry, or allowing children in your place of business, or people with outlandish clothing. Treat everyone the same because its just the right thing to do, not because you might violate a law by treating them differently.

Positive change takes time, and so it will be with acceptance that citizens are again embracing the notion of protecting themselves, so it will take time to become normalized.

Hopefully we will be able to have non-violent engagements and discussion about this, unlike so many other matters that become so hostile and personal and unproductive.

In the end the notion of imposing personal preference with restrictions is a longstanding method of controlling people, so it makes sense thats the first thing people propose. Looking back to all the things we have exiled, beaten, stoned and killed each other over (such as; how you dress, what you believe, how you talk ETC Etc etc) we should not be surprised at the response to open carry, its just disappointing that in 2021 we cant do better to accept something that in and of itself caused no harm or risk to anyone (open carry in Market Basket).

We must remember that as a country we are the still children of pilgrims and puritans who dictated almost every facet of life, so like all progress in the past, this too will take time to evolve.

[John Mercier]

Since no two people are alike... treating everyone the same makes no sense.

I have customers that set an appointment, I have customers that simply walk in and demand service.

I have customers concerned with the quality and options of a product, and customers just looking for the thing that can be attained the faster or the cheapest.

I have customers that just left a Big Box with off the shelve pricing, looking for a special order quote to match that product, and want is at a discount. When I tell them that it can not be matched... they will not take my word for it and demand a computerized quote - that takes time for a sale that will never happen. Time that cannot be allocated to another customer waiting for something that they will purchase.

I have customers that demand to know what their contractor paid for product, because they do not trust the contractor they hired.

Believe me, if people spent just a few more minutes thinking about those other customers... then it would be easier to treat everyone the same.

[Crusty]

To sum up the open carry vs concealed carry: Ignorance is bliss. As for people with guns being around, criminals normally avoid anyplace where they know or believe people are armed. I'm quite willing to enjoy the protective zone.

As for "gun free" zones, I avoid them whenever possible. In my opinion, anyone or any entity that declares a "gun free" zone has the absolute responsibility to enforce it. Any failure of enforcement should leave them criminally and civilly liable without limit.

[fatlazyless]

In June 2008 Justice Antonin Scalia made a majority decision OPINION in a gun control case involving Washington DC and a police officer trying to get a concealed acrry permit in the District........ Judge Scalia said "there are some buildings like public buildings and schools that are too sensitive for the second amendment and guns are banned from these buildings.

For a supermarket like Market Basket, it's up to the store owner if they think open carry is too sensitive for their store because it scares and intimidates some of the other shoppers which is probably WHY all these four different men I saw choose to wear a gun inside the store ..... to be INTIMIDATING or to be SHOWY. They all could have gone "concealed carry" but they want to be intimidating and showy to others so they go "open carry."

Open carry is intimidating to many and does not belong inside this Market Basket store is what Justice Antonin Scalia would say, if he were still alive and here on this forum!

www.shopmarketbasket.com/about-us/contact-us ........ If you think there's NO Place for open carry inside the Plymouth NH, Market Basket then go ahead and MAKE MY DAY ........ tell the Market Basket WHAT YOU THINK ......... and thank-YOU very much!

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Since no two people are alike... treating everyone the same makes no sense.

I have customers that set an appointment, I have customers that simply walk in and demand service.

I have customers concerned with the quality and options of a product, and customers just looking for the thing that can be attained the faster or the cheapest.

I have customers that just left a Big Box with off the shelve pricing, looking for a special order quote to match that product, and want is at a discount. When I tell them that it can not be matched... they will not take my word for it and demand a computerized quote - that takes time for a sale that will never happen. Time that cannot be allocated to another customer waiting for something that they will purchase.

I have customers that demand to know what their contractor paid for product, because they do not trust the contractor they hired.

Believe me, if people spent just a few more minutes thinking about those other customers... then it would be easier to treat everyone the same.

Again an interesting perspective.

I don't know what your business is, and I guess it really doesn't matter, but its clear you are passionate about making your business successful, and ultimately succeed or fail, you are the one who must live with the outcome of your decisions.

If you succeed and in any part because you banned Mercedes from parking at your business because some of your customers demanded it, and you can live with the compromise (and maybe even agree with it) all I can say is congratulations.

If you succeed in spite of your not bowing down to some customers unreasonable demands I applaud you.

Yours is but one business and one perspective and one example. Thankfully there are many others and many who would not ban Mercedes parking on their lot, or people of color (even before it was the law) or imposing other seeming irrational restrictions. But in truth yours is the more common practice, thats why positive change takes so long. Thankfully there are people with perspectives bigger than the bottom line profit of any given day and they make more balanced decisions. And thats where I will continue to take my business, and I will attempt to continue to avoid the elitist people and businesses among us who would impose arbitrary restrictions.

ATB

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Open carry is intimidating to many and does not belong inside this Market Basket store is what Justice Antonin Scalia would say, if he were still alive and here on this forum!

Clearly you know NOTHING about Justice Scalia or his work or perspectives, your statement is absolutely wrong.

He could already have said what you propose many times over and he carefully did not. So you should not attribute some totally different perspective to a dead man than he had the opportunity to do so himself and chose not to.

And with that statement this thread has now lost any credibility it may have had in creating a dialog about the sensibility of open carry vs concealed carry.

ATB

[fatlazyless]

www.shopmarketbasket.com/about-us/contact-us ....... looks like you left out my last sentence .....hey there Buddy .....the one with the link to the store management where you can tell them that OPEN CARRY does not belong inside this sensitive supermarket building ....... Market Basket-Plymouth NH .... NO OPEN CARRY ALLOWED!

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Again an interesting perspective.

I don't know what your business is, and I guess it really doesn't matter, but its clear you are passionate about making your business successful, and ultimately succeed or fail, you are the one who must live with the outcome of your decisions.

If you succeed and in any part because you banned Mercedes from parking at your business because some of your customers demanded it, and you can live with the compromise (and maybe even agree with it) all I can say is congratulations.

If you succeed in spite of your not bowing down to some customers unreasonable demands I applaud you.

Yours is but one business and one perspective and one example. Thankfully there are many others and many who would not ban Mercedes parking on their lot, or people of color (even before it was the law) or imposing other seeming irrational restrictions. But in truth yours is the more common practice, thats why positive change takes so long. Thankfully there are people with perspectives bigger than the bottom line profit of any given day and they make more balanced decisions. And thats where I will continue to take my business, and I will attempt to continue to avoid the elitist people and businesses among us who would impose arbitrary restrictions.

ATB

The point of those policies would be to make you go to another business. If you come to our business, and we get you as a customer, but lose other customers... no gain. If we lose employees... a definite loss.

So when I go to my dentist, I make an appointment... the door states to wear a mask, and sanitize my hands before a temp check. I do as directed.
When I go to the dealer for service on my vehicle, I make an appointment, the door ''heavily suggests'' that I wear a mask, so I put the mask on and after waiting patiently for the service desk manager to take my keys, I go outside and remove my mask. When the vehicle is ready, mask goes back on... I make the payment... and when I get back outside I take the mask off.

Business makes a request... regardless of my personal thoughts... I do as requested, or I find someplace else to shop.

If I have to pay a higher price or get a lesser degree of service, that would be the trade off for not being willing to do as the business requests.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The point of those policies would be to make you go to another business. If you come to our business, and we get you as a customer, but lose other customers... no gain. If we lose employees... a definite loss.

So when I go to my dentist, I make an appointment... the door states to wear a mask, and sanitize my hands before a temp check. I do as directed.

When I go to the dealer for service on my vehicle, I make an appointment, the door ''heavily suggests'' that I wear a mask, so I put the mask on and after waiting patiently for the service desk manager to take my keys, I go outside and remove my mask. When the vehicle is ready, mask goes back on... I make the payment... and when I get back outside I take the mask off.

Business makes a request... regardless of my personal thoughts... I do as requested, or I find someplace else to shop.

If I have to pay a higher price or get a lesser degree of service, that would be the trade off for not being willing to do as the business requests.

Same mask experience this week. Needed new eyeglasses and went to Laconia Eye and the sign on door reads “masks are required”. Drove to another store and made my purchase. Personal chose


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Newbiesaukee]

Although I agree that most decisions are absolutely the right of individuals to make for themselves. And I am not criticizing the rights of people to make those decisions.

Yet, it seems a sad state of affairs when some decisions, such as those regarding personal medical care, seem to be increasingly driven by politics rather than competence.

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

www.shopmarketbasket.com/about-us/contact-us ....... looks like you left out my last sentence .....hey there Buddy .....the one with the link to the store management where you can tell them that OPEN CARRY does not belong inside this sensitive supermarket building ....... Market Basket-Plymouth NH .... NO OPEN CARRY ALLOWED!

Since you posted contact info for Market Basket,I guess open carry advocates can feel free to contact them encouraging open carry because it makes people feel safer and is legal in NH.
Personally,I'm against it but just sayin'

[fatlazyless]

So ....... did you go to the optician at the nearby Gilford Walmart where they do not allow open carry of a hand gun inside their store because it tends to scare and intimidate the other customers?

http://www.optix-now.com/ecp/gilford...ion-center-840

THANK-YOU to each and every WALMART, about 4500-stores, in the U.S. in all 50-states that all have this NO OPEN CARRY policy since 2019.

If you were seated in the optician getting measured for new eyeglasses, and another patient/customer walked in and sat down who was wearing a hand gun, open carry, how would that make you feel? For me I would get up and leave, asap-pdq, absolutely positively, I would exit the optician office, immediately!

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Since you posted contact info for Market Basket,I guess open carry advocates can feel free to contact them encouraging open carry because it makes people feel safer and is legal in NH.
Personally,I'm against it but just sayin'

Yes, people can contact Market Basket and send a message on what they think with regard to shopping at Market Basket .....pro-open carry, against open carry, or whatever they wish to write on any M.B. concern or issue.

Here's the link again ..... www.shopmarketbasket.com/about-us/contact-us

Me ...... I have not been inside the nearby Plymouth Hannaford supermarket in about a year and now just use M.B. and Walmart which also has many non-food items. Is good to know that all Walmarts have a "no open carry" policy since 2019. Would like to see the Plymouth Market Basket go "No Open Carry" as well, similar to the nearby Walmart as a way to discourage these lone, individual men from using the store as a place to go shopping while showing off their hand gun.

[mhtranger]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Would like to see the Plymouth Market Basket go "No Open Carry" as well, similar to the nearby Walmart as a way to discourage these lone, individual men from using the store as a place to go shopping while showing off their hand gun.

But what about those of us that carry concealed? You would never know how many scary handguns are around you in your area.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by mhtranger

But what about those of us that carry concealed? You would never know how many scary handguns are around you in your area.

I have no problem with concealed carry. If you want to carry a gun, just keep it concealed, and don't go parading around the local supermarket as a way to show off your gun, open carry, to be intimidating or showy, or something.

As already mentioned, in 2008 the late Justice Antonin Scalia said "there are some buildings, government buildings and schools that are too sensitive for open carry."

In my opinion the local supermarket is also a building that is too sensitive for open carry with a hand gun because there are many different people, different ages inside doing their food shopping who do NOT want to share the store space with some unknown man, dressed casually, who has a gun on his hip in a holster.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

I have no problem with concealed carry. If you want to carry a gun, just keep it concealed, and don't go parading around the local supermarket as a way to show off your gun, open carry, to be intimidating or showy, or something.

I'm glad to see a softening from your previously elevated position of no weapons as opposed to no open carry. Re: "In a post up above, someone says the Mount Washington cruise ship has a 'no weapons' sign posted at its entry way, so if it is good for the Mount then it is probably a good thing for Market Basket to do, as well. "

Clearly this is some progress.

Hard to believe it took 2 pages of posts to facilitate a change like this, but its a big one one.

Like I said before, it will take time to normalize this and I think we are seeing the first signs (I hope,,,)

ATB

[LikeLakes]

I feel safe shopping anywhere, anytime, in my home state of NH.

I feel safe if there is no open carry, like in Wal-mart.
I feel safe if there is open carry, like this now famous Market Basket.

I trust and respect my fellow NH citizens, those that don't choose to own guns, those that choose to concealed carry, those that choose to open carry.

I am honestly enjoying this thread, it's a good discussion.

[fatlazyless]

Open carry is okay out in the woods, for hunting or something. On the Alaska tv shows you see people with open carry guns who are concerned about bears, wolves, and maybe other people.

Here is NH, concealed carry means you do not see it, and don't much even think about it. With open carry in the supermarket, the wearer is probably showing it off, wants to be intimidating, or making some political statement. It makes no sense to be wearing a gun, open carry, in the Plymouth NH, Market Basket.

The comment about NOT wanting to go shopping in a store with macho-men wearing guns has a strong message, and with Walmart's 4500-stores all going no open carry in 2019 this no open carry rule is becoming very common.

If you carry concealed, you know its there, and no one else knows except yourself. With open carry everyone knows because they can see the gun and this changes the psychological dynamics of the situation. People think to themself ....... holy crap .....there's a guy here wearing a gun.

Question to patrons on The Dive: If someone waded from their boat to onboard The Dive, sat down and ordered an eleven dollar-adult beverage, while wearing an open carry hand gun at the time ....... how would this be accepted by the other patrons? Like, what's with the gun, buddy?

[LikeLakes]

I had been thinking, all this forum needs to be complete is a thread about heading to The Dive while going 70 mph across the lake with open carry. Just combine every contentious issue into one.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

I have no problem with concealed carry. If you want to carry a gun, just keep it concealed, and don't go parading around the local supermarket as a way to show off your gun, open carry, to be intimidating or showy, or something.

Who says they who OC are being "showy" or trying to be "intimidating"? Just because in the world of FLL that is they way you interpret this, and because for some reason it "scares" you then that must be the way EVERYONE feels. Were any of these observed individuals doing anything to draw attention to the fact they were wearing a holstered pistol or simply going about their business just as you were? Your fear while real is based on a visual and nothing more. Even you claim you'd be fine with concealed carry, but what's the difference? AH you can see it, but realistically how does that change the situation? It doesn't, armed is armed open or concealed.

A great illustration is what if these individuals were off duty cops? When in uniform open carrying that is OK by you, but wearing civilian attire that is scary. Same person, same type of firearm, slight change in personal appearance makes you mental. Why?

I would bet that the majority of those that choose to OC are likely either LEO or former LEOs. Many are much more aware of crime and the presence of it even in the smallest of towns. A perspective that you FLL may not be aware of as you blissfully go through life in search of the next free cup of coffee.

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

A great illustration is what if these individuals were off duty cops? When in uniform open carrying that is OK by you, but wearing civilian attire that is scary. Same person, same type of firearm, slight change in personal appearance makes you mental. Why?.

Because we all KNOW why cops carry a gun: we don't know why a civilian is strapped.

It is context-related.

Sort of like if you're in a doctor's office and a nurse approaches you with a hypodermic to give you a prescribed shot you aren't concerned, but if you're in a restroom and a stranger approaches you with a hypodermic needle in hand you'll feel anxiety.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by LikeLakes

I had been thinking, all this forum needs to be complete is a thread about heading to The Dive while going 70 mph across the lake with open carry. Just combine every contentious issue into one.

They are in a way... it all people that are trying to be ''flashy''.

If the Dive were just another location based bar... just one more of the mix with very localized issue... because it is a mobile bar, it creates a large area of effect.

Speeding across the lake is really someone that wants to show what their boat can do. Dave Street used to do this by moving his offshore racing boat to his house on the lake.
Open carry, which used to be by people that may not want the bother of the permit process, really is to let others know that you are armed. Concealed carry, done properly, is hardly ever noticed. Customer and clerks are not going to react to you, because they don't have any idea.

Sometimes things are done because someone doesn't know that they shouldn't, but that usually results in a short exchange without any drama.
Lately, some have felt that the drama will result in a positive outcome for them... it never does.

[SAB1]

I don’t think your assumption on off duty LEO’s open carrying is correct. As I mentioned above any cop I know, my son included always conceals off duty. Gun law debates and discussions never really go anywhere. Depending on what side you’re on heels are dug in pretty deep. Overall I suspect the native folks here probably are much more to open to guns. People from others states like MA not so much. Having lived and hunted in MA since I was 15 it always amazed me how many people called the cops when we seen entering the woods with guns.

[mhtranger]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Question to patrons on The Dive: If someone waded from their boat to onboard The Dive, sat down and ordered an eleven dollar-adult beverage, while wearing an open carry hand gun at the time ....... how would this be accepted by the other patrons? Like, what's with the gun, buddy?

Well my guess is they would think he was a little bit off. But now you are just reaching!!

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by SAB1

I don’t think your assumption on off duty LEO’s open carrying is correct. As I mentioned above any cop I know, my son included always conceals off duty. Gun law debates and discussions never really go anywhere. Depending on what side you’re on heels are dug in pretty deep. Overall I suspect the native folks here probably are much more to open to guns. People from others states like MA not so much. Having lived and hunted in MA since I was 15 it always amazed me how many people called the cops when we seen entering the woods with guns.

I'm native. I breaks down into civilized behavior.
And it isn't the only issue that incites passion, I get smokers that both get upset that they can't smoke inside, and that they have to place the butts in a specialized disposal container that we have at both customer entrances.

I have had customers smoking in the store told to ''put it out'' that drop it on the floor and step on it. Customer that throw the butts in the flower planters, or the parking lot on the ground, etc. None of it is civilized behavior. So it is not a matter of where someone was born or may currently reside.
Nor is it just a matter of firearms.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Open carry, which used to be by people that may not want the bother of the permit process, really is to let others know that you are armed. Concealed carry, done properly, is hardly ever noticed. Customer and clerks are not going to react to you, because they don't have any idea.

Not necessarily.

I'm sure there are those that want to carry open and as such want everyone to know. I don't understand this way of thinking and it really begs the question if that is your only reasoning for doing so what's the point? Whatever it is IMHO it's silly. Then again there are plenty who choose to make silly public statements and they have the right to.

I'm sure there is a percentage of gun owners that simply don't want to go through the permitting process because it is a hassle. I happen to be one of them. At one point I looked into getting a CCW and bagged that idea as I simply had no real desire to carry anyways but thought it would be nice to have should I want to travel to a state where having one doubles as a permit to possess. NH does not have a requirement for a CCW anymore to carry concealed. Therefore at least in this state to OC is a choice.

Getting a CCW (concealed carry) permit is not a guarantee, you can't just get one depending on where you are. You will often time hear the language "may issue" versus "shall issue". The distinction is really important to note. "Shall issue" means simply a CCW must be issued to a requestor provided they meet the requirements. "May issue" leaves the issuance at the desecration of the issuing authority, typically the local police chief. There are places where the police chief will not issue period even though they could under the letter of the law. Since it is by their desecration, if they so choose to issue none that is their prerogative to do so even if the requesting person is a saint and has a valid reason for asking for one. In those cases OC is the only option. MA is a great example of this. It is a "May issue" state and some municipalities will not issue permits to carry concealed. Of course they will never put that in writing, instead just deny all requests without reason.

Again I don't defend OC, at least not in public urban places or when out and about conducting everyday business. I don't mind it and it doesn't bother me I just feel it is unnecessary to do so.

[John Mercier]

Because we no longer have a permitting process for concealed carry in NH... no one has to go through the hassle. They can just conceal the firearm and no one would know the better.

They may be ignorant to the fact that they can legally conceal carry, but my guess is that would be more of a rarity rather than majority. And those few would never make a drama out of it. They would just conceal the next time.

[SAB1]

Was not aware that some towns don’t issue or make it hard to get CC permit in NH. I always had a non resident one that piggy backed on my MA permit. I moved here permanently last year. Applied and received CC permit in a few days.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by SAB1

Was not aware that some towns don’t issue or make it hard to get CC permit in NH. I always had a non resident one that piggy backed on my MA permit. I moved here permanently last year. Applied and received CC permit in a few days.

NH has no requirement for a CCW to carry concealed. I'm not even sure if they issue them anymore. If so the prior law was written such that NH was a "shall issue" not "may issue" state, meaning if you met the requirements they had to give you a permit. Not like the nonsense down in MA where it is a "may issue" state and as such there are places where they simply will not issue them and not for any other reason than they don't want to.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

NH has no requirement for a CCW to carry concealed. I'm not even sure if they issue them anymore. If so the prior law was written such that NH was a "shall issue" not "may issue" state, meaning if you met the requirements they had to give you a permit. Not like the nonsense down in MA where it is a "may issue" state and as such there are places where they simply will not issue them and not for any other reason than they don't want to.

NH is a "shall issue" state—getting a concealed carry permit is purely a technicality. I completed my app last week as part of applying to a fish & game club—they use the permit process as a secondary background check.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[John Mercier]

''Hard'' was a relative term.
It involved paperwork and a fee.

So people would just option to open carry...

[SAB1]

It’s reciprocal with a few other states.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob

Based on all this discourse I decided to go shopping at the Plymouth Market Basket today. I thought it would be interesting to see all the low life’s that think they need a gun , primarily a exposed gun to feel totally free. I was terribly disappointed and didn't see a single NRA card carrier in the crowd that felt he or she had to walk around with a exposed weapon to prove he they were more American then the Fox News group. I did see more tattoos then is normal but sadly no guns. Perhaps this has been overdone by our friend FLL

Back here in May of 2011, FLL told the forum to chase Black Bears off your property--using a broom.

[XCR-700]

I’v been thinking about this whole matter and reflecting on my own thoughts/concerns about seeing people practicing open carry, and I must say upon reflection that I think open carry might actually be better that concealed carry in some/many situations.

The first question I considered is why exactly is it a bad thing to be showy with guns? We accept it from many people all the time. For example; in their very non-classic/traditional clothing, in their radical blue and pink and orange hair colors, in their sometimes shocking all over body tattoos, in their extreme and sometime repulsive piercings, ETC Etc etc. And we eventually grow to accept them all as an expression of their personality. We may not like it, but we tolerate it because we realize we are not harmed by it.

Next why is it a bad thing to want to intimidate others? Again, many do it all the time with their openly aggressive behavior including; loud and offensive language and comments made in public, their physically imposing behavior often invading ones personal space, in their sometimes disturbing dress, in their swagger intended to be intimidating. Some of this I would attribute to simple bad behavior that I seriously dislike, but we still accept it. If however the intent to intimidate works on others who are behaving badly shouldn’t they just cancel each other out. So for example if FLL was thinking he should make a public spectacle and tell someone off for openly carrying, but then decides this is not the best option because he is intimidated, isn’t that a win for everyone??? And if the target audience is in fact someone who is thinking they might do something grossly inappropriate or illegal, and seeing someone openly carrying a gun stops them, then shouldn’t we actually be thanking these people for having the courage to make such a public statement that honest citizens will not allow themselves to be assaulted or robbed! Yup makes sense to me!

And finally (for me) forget about seeing someone with a 9mm semi-auto pocket pistol on their belt, in todays world that’s as about as intimidating as seeing someone 30 years ago with a knife on their belt in a case, but if “I” saw someone with a western gun belt and a substantial revolver sashaying into Market Basket I would likely think that’s kinda odd and maybe be a bit concerning, but then if I stopped for a moment I would realize they are doing no harm to me. And maybe, just maybe (and if I thought it was a good looking gun-belt and pistol like a nickel plated Colt with engraving and beautiful fire-blue hardware and classy grips) and hopefully I would be reasonable enough to go up to that person and complement them on their equipment. Well Hopefully,,,

The only time I can see being concerned about firearms in public other than seeing them actually being used in a crime (and I will be the first say I would be concerned and again hopefully I would speak up and voice that concern) is if I saw someone handling a gun in a very populated public place. Its one thing to have a gun safely holstered and completely another to be handling it. I think it would be unacceptable to be changing mags, racking a slide, rotating a cylinder, virtually anything that involves handling a gun in a populated place. And thats all assuming it was still always pointed in a very safe direction. It would be totally unacceptable to be handling a gun and have it pointing at anyone.

Other than that, I really think this is all nonsense and drama for drama sake.
You are all entitled to your opinions, thats mine. Embrace it or loathe it, I’m just being honest, and again this is from someone who never carrys openly and probably never will.

ATB

[Descant]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

...They have no experience/training in high stress situations. They have never been in combat. They think they are going to respond like Clint Eastwood to a shooter situation but are more likely..

It appears you think ALL open carry folks are totally inexperienced. More likely to me is that they are devoted to their sport and take any number of training programs offered by manufacturers, sporting clubs etc all around the state and nation. How can you possibly reach the conclusion that none have been in combat or had military training?

Aficionados in most sports practice, take lessons, travel to other venues to improve their skills. Those who participate in shooting sports do the same thing. You insult them by blindly assuming otherwise.

[KayakinKid]

Well, this has certainly been an interesting thread. And to think that at certain times in history, open carrying of a weapon meant one was usually seen as one of the good guys, and those that carried concealed were looked at with suspicion. My, how times have changed.

People open carry for different reasons. Are there the few that do it to show off in some way? Sure, but that usually wears off quickly. The show offs don't/won't invest money into a quality holster and belt, and soon become tired of having to pull their pants up all the time because the weight of the gun keeps pulling their belt and pants down.

From my own experience, there are some days where I just don't feel like having to dress around my gun. If it's a hot summer day, having to throw on an extra layer of clothing just to conceal carry my handgun, and be uncomfortable while doing it, doesn't make for an enjoyable day. While I don't make it a habit of open carrying, it does happen on occasion. Usually when I've gone to the range, or I'm on my way back from an all day class at the Sig Sauer Academy, and I stop to grab some dinner on the way home. I don't give two hoots about impressing anyone. It's just another day and I'm minding my own business, getting things done.

Depending on how one carries may mean additional expenses in the wardrobe department. Inside the waist band or appendix carry means buying pants that are a size or two larger. Carrying outside the waistband or in a shoulder holster means buying shirts that are larger in order to conceal properly. Not all people have the disposable income necessary to have separate wardrobes for carry and non-carry days.

If one does choose to open carry, does that entail a change in behavior? Absolutely. One who open carries should be even more attentive than usual to the environment and people around them while doing so, and should also use a quality retention holster.

No matter a persons gender, color, income, or place in society, everyone has the right to have the means to protect themselves. Criminals don't make appointments, they don't abide by the law, and they certainly don't give a hoot about gun-free zone signs. That no guns sign that makes some comfortable is merely an invitation for the criminal. It tells them that there is likely no one there to resist them and their criminal behavior. It does more to embolden the criminal than deter them. A false sense of security is no security at all. That openly armed individual that some look down upon may be the very one that risks their own life to protect that person, should a violent criminal decide that that person is going to be their next target.

If you see someone openly carrying, don't just look at the gun, look at the person. Look at their appearance, their clothing, their demeanor. A clean cut person who appears to be calm and confident, with a decent belt and holster, I wouldn't give them a second glance. The unkempt person with the nervous look about him and with a cheap belt and holster, yeah, I'm going to pay attention to him for a bit. It doesn't mean they're a bad person. For all I know, they're new to carrying, and could use some helpful advice. If that's the case, good on them for choosing to take responsibility for their own safety, and not expecting someone else to do it for them.

Food for thought; would you rather the person leave the handgun in their car so that you would feel more at ease in the store, knowing that it might be stolen out of the vehicle? Or would you rather they have it on their person in the store, openly, and under their control?

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by KayakinKid

Food for thought; would you rather the person leave the handgun in their car so that you would feel more at ease in the store, knowing that it might be stolen out of the vehicle? Or would you rather they have it on their person in the store, openly, and under their control?

Since you asked, I would prefer guns were left unloaded, with an appropriate trigger lock, out of site, in a locked vehicle.

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by KayakinKid

Food for thought; would you rather the person leave the handgun in their car so that you would feel more at ease in the store, knowing that it might be stolen out of the vehicle? Or would you rather they have it on their person in the store, openly, and under their control?

My preference would be for them to leave it in the car, of course locked and out of sight.

Great posts, XCR and kayakinkid! Really thoughtful comments. Me personally, as I've said a few times, I don't ever feel unsafe, personally don't choose to own guns, have absolutely never had the slightest urge to be armed in public. That's me. We all have our own feelings and views on things, and I do respect and understand those that want to be armed.

I don't agree that a gun on the hip will just become normalized over time. I think that there's a significant % of the population that is fearful when they see an armed person, and will continue to be uncomfortable. I hope there aren't more and more people that decide to open carry, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Because we all KNOW why cops carry a gun: we don't know why a civilian is strapped.

It is context-related.

Sort of like if you're in a doctor's office and a nurse approaches you with a hypodermic to give you a prescribed shot you aren't concerned, but if you're in a restroom and a stranger approaches you with a hypodermic needle in hand you'll feel anxiety.

Why do they need a reason? Maybe that's the problem here in that the assumption is always a nefarious reason even though there is no indication whatsoever any of these observed individuals posed any threat to anyone.

While I understand the dramatics of the analogy you used here, there is only one problem with it. Nowhere was it mentioned that anyone had a gun in hand. A person in uniform or not that approaches casually with a holstered firearm is far different than if it were drawn with a purpose and ready to be used.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Why do they need a reason? Maybe that's the problem here in that the assumption is always a nefarious reason even though there is no indication whatsoever any of these observed individuals posed any threat to anyone.

While I understand the dramatics of the analogy you used here, there is only one problem with it. Nowhere was it mentioned that anyone had a gun in hand. A person in uniform or not that approaches casually with a holstered firearm is far different than if it were drawn with a purpose and ready to be used.

Legally, they don't need a reason. But given the climate in the country right now, open carrying is unquestionably provocative.

In response to above, every LEO and military member I know carries concealed. When asked, a few former students answered similarly: "I carry for safety, not for show."

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[Mr. V]

If you have a CWP and want to carry, fine, do so but do it concealed.

Why would anyone do open carry if they have a CWP, i.e. what is the point, other than wanting to draw attention to themselves?

Could it be that people who open carry cannot qualify for a CWP?

The authorities out here convicted some clown who was open carrying, parading around for no reason, drawing attention to himself; he said he did it for political reasons, but was convicted nonetheless.

The only time I can see justification for open carrying is if you are on your own property or out in the woods where bears, cougars or other animals could be a threat; open carrying is not needed to deter people, at least not when / if you carry concealed.

[YOLO]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Since you asked, I would prefer guns were left unloaded, with an appropriate trigger lock, out of site, in a locked vehicle.

What you prefer is irrelevant. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. This debate is useless. Our rights are backed up by the US Constitution and the State of NH which allows concealed or open carry, no permit needed. If a business doesn't want people carrying, they should put up a sign.

Again, there is a nanny state just to the south if there are those who do not like people exercising their second amendment rights. They frown upon it down there and feel triggered (no pun) if they find out someone has a gun, even lawfully. Live Free or Die is the motto here and many of us live by it. A gun locked in a car does not protect the owner.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by YOLO

What you prefer is irrelevant. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. This debate is useless. Our rights are backed up by the US Constitution and the State of NH which allows concealed or open carry, no permit needed. If a business doesn't want people carrying, they should put up a sign.

Again, there is a nanny state just to the south if there are those who do not like people exercising their second amendment rights. They frown upon it down there and feel triggered (no pun) if they find out someone has a gun, even lawfully. Live Free or Die is the motto here and many of us live by it. A gun locked in a car does not protect the owner.

The poster asked a question if it is preferable to leave a firearm in the car where it might be stolen or carried openly. I answered what I would prefer.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Legally, they don't need a reason. But given the climate in the country right now, open carrying is unquestionably provocative.

In response to above, every LEO and military member I know carries concealed. When asked, a few former students answered similarly: "I carry for safety, not for show."

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Again clearly you are entitled to your opinion and you presented it reasonably and respectfully so I thank you for no drama added.

That said I respectfully disagree that open carry is "provocative"

I would argue if anything it is a rampart or a deterrent.

But these are just opinions.

As stated before, all we know with absolute surety is that no harm had come to anyone as a direct result of open carry at the Plymouth Market Basket (the origin of this thread) That is the only absolutely 100% irrefutable statement and has stood the test of all that has been said here. And so with that said, is there really any need to say any more? This is a non-issue. Nothing is wrong, nothing needs to be fixed, nothing needs to be changed except the false notion there is anything concerning about open carry in the Plymouth Market basket.

Are we done yet? how stupid is that question ;-)

ATB

[SAB1]

I gotta side with Thinkxingu. In today’s climate it is nothing short of provocative. There are antis everywhere and all open carry does is get them beating their drum. Any class I’ve ever taken in concealed carry does not advocate open carry. It just draws attention to you which is not what you want. That said, it doesn’t bother me but that is likely because I’ve been around guns all my life. While I am a strong believer in the 2nd amendment due to today’s current environment I do believe in background checks to carry a handgun. If you lived somewhere where background checks were required and open carry was common a lot less fear and opposition would likely be portrayed. There would always be opposition but it would be less. Like we say…guns don’t kill people, people kill people.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by KayakinKid

People open carry for different reasons. Are there the few that do it to show off in some way? Sure, but that usually wears off quickly. The show offs don't/won't invest money into a quality holster and belt, and soon become tired of having to pull their pants up all the time because the weight of the gun keeps pulling their belt and pants down.

Food for thought; would you rather the person leave the handgun in their car so that you would feel more at ease in the store, knowing that it might be stolen out of the vehicle? Or would you rather they have it on their person in the store, openly, and under their control?

Oh please--you're just a guy in NH. Nobody's coming to shoot you in the grocery store, and no one's breaking into your car while you're at the deli counter. That gets us down to a very short list of reasons...

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by SAB1

While I am a strong believer in the 2nd amendment due to today’s current environment I do believe in background checks to carry a handgun..

You do realize that there is no mental health information made available in background checks, it is protected and not shared with LE.

So all a background check does is possibly pick up some one who is currently wanted or with a restraining order on them, or possibly ID a previously convicted criminal. And thats only if everything works perfectly. And do you really think those people are applying for a license to carry in the first place,,,

So what does the background check actually do to make concealed carry safer??? NOTHING.

Sorry, these are just the facts, not opinion, not unsubstantiated fear, not speculation.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

You do realize that there is no mental health information made available in background checks, it is protected and not shared with LE.

So all a background check does is possibly pick up some one who is currently wanted or with a restraining order on them, or possibly ID a previously convicted criminal. And thats only if everything works perfectly. And do you really think those people are applying for a license to carry in the first place,,,

So what does the background check actually do to make concealed carry safer??? NOTHING.

Sorry, these are just the facts, not opinion, not unsubstantiated fear, not speculation.

I thought, in order to get a conceal carry permit (so you could go to other states) you had to get a sign off from the local PD. In most towns in NH, the PD knows you, or can learn a lot with 2-3 phone calls. That part of the system works, in my mind.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Descant

I thought, in order to get a conceal carry permit (so you could go to other states) you had to get a sign off from the local PD. In most towns in NH, the PD knows you, or can learn a lot with 2-3 phone calls. That part of the system works, in my mind.

I mentioned my experience above: I went in to the PD, filled out a one-page form, and paid $10.

From what I know, though, it only applies to NH and a few states that offer reciprocity. I can't carry in MA unless I complete an out-of-state license to carry application. No idea how different their background check would be given that NH's will be federal.

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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Descant

I thought, in order to get a conceal carry permit (so you could go to other states) you had to get a sign off from the local PD. In most towns in NH, the PD knows you, or can learn a lot with 2-3 phone calls. That part of the system works, in my mind.

RE: "the PD knows you, or can learn a lot with 2-3 phone calls"

Thats not part of any official background check and not legitimate grounds for denial of a CC license. It might have been how old-school LE operated, but its not any part of modern LE procedures for concealed carry licensing.

The FBI NICS check is the key basis for most concealed carry permits and it only contains mental health data for people who are already in some federal database, such as convicted felons maybe some VA patients, few others, but not the majority of people.

Your mental health data kept by your health care provider is protected against disclosure by HIPAA rules, and that medical and mental health information is very strictly protected against disclosure.

That has been and ongoing and very serious debate in congress for a while. The firearms pre-purchase and concealed carry background check does very little good without mandatory reporting of mental health problems, and at the same time that is possibly an individuals most sensitive personal information.

On the one side, many fear that disclosure of mental health data will keep far too many from getting the treatment they need due to fear of the information going into some national database and then being used against them for all kinds of reasons.

And on the other side some feel it is critical for law enforcement to have access to such data to protect the public.

At the moment its a no win situation and seemingly deadlocked.

I offer no comment about the matter except that it is a challenging matter.