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06-08-2017, 08:42 AM | #101 |
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I just wanted to be the 100th post on this thread
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06-08-2017, 08:53 AM | #102 |
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"Joey" won that distinction, but you did win the prize for being the 100th reply! No idea way the prize is, but you won it. 😁
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06-08-2017, 09:05 AM | #103 | |
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Quote:
I just wanted to be the 100th reply lol
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06-09-2017, 01:04 PM | #104 | |
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I wouldn't be surprised by it if the trail gets built and bikers encounter big rocks placed on the trail. I think the trail organizers seriously need to consider this in their maintenance and upkeep projections. |
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06-09-2017, 03:02 PM | #105 |
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I would think this is not just a maintenance issue. If someone was injured due to people deliberately placing rocks on the WOW trail it could become a criminal issue.
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06-10-2017, 12:25 AM | #106 | |
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You are absolutely right, terrible things could come from, and easily be classified criminal from, some maliciously placed boulders. A reality is: how do you catch the culprit? Yes people could get hurt and a lot of money would be wasted on removing the boulders in the interim. In a previous post I mention a potential alternative of bringing the trail down Elm Street to Parade Road and up to Severance Rd, then down to the tracks on what I referred to as the snowmobile trail through the state forest. That post was apposed by two seemingly legitimate views. The first states that the state would be foolish to allow easement. I've since remembered that the snowmobile trail I referenced is actually a class 6 Town Rd. I would hope that is something to work with. The second states that the WOW trail federal funding only applies to construction on the rail road track. To this I encourage we take a closer look and get creative for another source of funding for an alternate portion of the trail. A large percentage of the alternate trail I propose is already paved therefore there would not be as significant of an expenditure to create a rideable surface. If the calculation turns out that the expense to connect Severance back to the tracks is more than what is saved with the alternate route pre-paved surface, and the trail organizers find a shortfall from the government funding, I have this solution. Work out a deal with us to create the WOW Welcome Center on the corner of Severance and Parade. We have the land and I'm certain that if Alan Beetle and I sat down at a table and talked about it, we could come up with a strategy that gave this WOW welcome center a foundation for profit through food and beverage. Those profits or a potion of, can be dedicated to the trail to offset the expense. Please understand that to help make this happen, we would likely lose some of our realestate. I would hope that in appreciation of said sacrifice the SD/LB community would find a permanent way for golf cart access to The Mystic Meadows. There we have it. The trail gets built, SD/LB don't have to deal with a fence and other concerns. Trail riders have a great welcome center and nobody crashes into a boulder. |
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06-10-2017, 04:43 AM | #107 |
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Baygo that is an excellent viable solution and everyone wins in the end. I would think all parties would consider this alternative instead of wasting time in court and money on attorneys
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06-10-2017, 05:45 AM | #108 | |
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06-10-2017, 05:47 AM | #109 | |
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To be clear, I really don't care if an alternative trail route is decided on. If all are happy about it, great. I applaud offering this alternative solution. I REALLY DON'T like making decisions based on veiled threats and intimidation. Court fights are one thing. That is how society works out it's differences. Threatened boulders in the trail are a whole different thing. It's like walking into a discussion with a blatantly obvious weapon with the clear intention of intimidating the other people in the room. Cowering before criminals is NOT a good plan to deal with the situation. Talk about a WRONG message. |
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06-10-2017, 09:07 AM | #110 |
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A few facts
Hi all,
Generally, I prefer to stay out of the discussion, but I thought it prudent to supply a few facts.
Jetskier |
06-10-2017, 10:24 AM | #111 | |
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06-10-2017, 10:54 AM | #112 | |
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The exterior borders of the property that you state is privetly owned has a 6 foot communal border defined by a strip of grass that is cut by SD maintenance. Just enough for a cart trail. |
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06-10-2017, 06:12 PM | #113 | |
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This issue is just too confrontational and will cost/waste way too much money if it stays on its current course. |
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06-10-2017, 06:27 PM | #114 | |
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This issue is just too confrontational and will cost/waste way too much money if it stays on its current course. I wonder what would happen if we total up the money being conceited for legal cost and instead marked it to fund an alternative |
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06-10-2017, 08:32 PM | #115 |
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While I think some of the ideas to "go around" SDS/LB are great and even could work from the research I did the rails to trails fund must be on railroad tracks. So even if they would consider it would have to be self funded. I lived in SDS for four years and was on the board. At the time I left the stance was to fight it at whatever cost but as I read through this I see a spilt stance on the homeowners. Someone in SDS should do what's needed to put a vote together on the yearly meeting coming up so all the homeowners can vote to on what to do and if needed how much money to spend. Just my 2 cents and that about all it's worth.
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06-12-2017, 04:47 PM | #116 | |
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06-13-2017, 11:01 AM | #117 |
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South Down/Long Bay (Offical WOW Trail Position)
"South Down and Long Bay position regarding the construction of the WOW Trail along the railroad right of way. In order to present a more factual representation we have created an informational website":
www.notthroughsdlb.com Please note that this is their official stance on the Trail. I myself (a 10 year owner in SD then LB) do not agree with their position. Honestly whether you want the trail for various reasons or not, this site is complete propaganda. Crime and safety are and issue with out without the trail. It is just as easy to walk down or along the tracks than it is if you have the trail, the RR, beach access and boat clubs obviously there already so in my opinion there is no new issues that the trail creates are the criminal activity was there before the trail. |
06-13-2017, 11:08 AM | #118 |
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WOW.... its almost factual!
SD/LB already have public access thru their private community. The RR ROW is a snowmobile corridor trail used by the public... snowmobilers, hikers, etc.... just more NIMBY Woodsy
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06-13-2017, 01:58 PM | #119 |
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WOW Trail
Crime is only one aspect of SD/LB position. I disagree with Joey. The WOW trail will create a defined avenue of egress, especially for a person riding a bike at night. I think it would be difficult to ride a bike along the side of the track at night in its present condition.
I know people who work (or worked ) for the Laconia police department. As I've stated in prior posts, publicly, they take a favorable position to the WOW trail. (I don't know why, but as witnessed by this forum, it is not very PC to be against it!) Privately, my source states that it is a defined avenue of egress for crime committed in Laconia and it is an attractive nuisance for crime, especially when committed at night. The WOW trail makes policing difficult. I wouldn't focus on the crime aspect of the position. The environmental impact is a concern. Also, liability is perhaps the biggest concern. As stated previously, the WOW trail organizers are lobbying to have the Hobo railroad shut down. The owners of SD/LB already pay for this liability for its residents; however, any such policy would not apply to users of the WOW trail. Who is going to pay for it. One thing I learned today is that the City of Laconia paid $400,000 for Phase II. As a taxpayer and resident, I am disappointed to hear this. The money could have been spent on more worthwhile things, like teacher raises. Or perhaps, a refund to the taxpayers, heaven forbid! Based on this contribution, I wonder what the City's obligation will be for Phase III? |
06-13-2017, 03:35 PM | #120 | |
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Were I absolutely agree with "Major" is, I do not think that phase III should be place on the shoulders of the tax payers. Private sponsorship, federal funding and donations should be used if not then I do not think phase III should be completed. |
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06-13-2017, 06:01 PM | #121 |
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Bike Path Required?
I saw this on the WOW Trail Facebook page last week. Anyone know more about this?
"This week's #throwbackthursday is brought to you by South Down Shores & Long Bay developer John Davidson and the City of Laconia Planning Board circa 1986. "Mr. deHaven questioned if the bike path was public. Davidson explained that by a condition of the Planning Board that a bicycle path was required." https://www.facebook.com/WOWTrail/po...55337886832071 |
06-14-2017, 10:12 AM | #122 |
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John Walker - Just what is 'community minded' & what is 'selfish'?
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06-14-2017, 10:41 AM | #123 |
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Here we go again...
Playing the "safety" card!
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06-14-2017, 10:57 AM | #124 |
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WOW Trail
It's a legitimate concern. During busy times, the forklift travels over the railroad tracks 200+ times a day. If the WOW trail is built, who has the right of way at the intersection of the WOW trail and the boat launch? If the forklift does, how does he stop in time when a bicyclist or a runner blows through the stop sign. Who's liable? Will the insurance obtained by the WOW trail and/or SD/LB protect them from liability?
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06-14-2017, 11:14 AM | #125 |
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Safety Card
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06-14-2017, 11:26 AM | #126 |
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The train is slow moving and very easy to see approaching. The people around the area on busy weekend also tend to be familiar with the marina, tracks, etc., and have a certain degree of situational awareness. If you build a trail that encourages people not familiar with the environment to pass through you statistically increase the risk of incidents due to decreased situational awareness. It is basically the same as the "out of town driver" problem in busy cities.
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06-14-2017, 11:31 AM | #127 | |
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06-14-2017, 11:59 AM | #128 | |
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There are other battles to fight if you do not want the trail, such (and most importantly that would effect the everyone in Laconia) is where the funding is coming from that are much more legitimate arguments. Which I am completely on board with, if funds are coming from the city directly or via higher property tax I am completely against it. |
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06-14-2017, 04:11 PM | #129 | |
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06-14-2017, 05:13 PM | #130 |
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Forklift
It would have to be quite a pedestrian walkway! Have you seen the forklift used to lift boats up to 26' long? The walkway would have to have a clearance of 15' or more. Anyway, the cost of such a walkway would be trivial compared to the engineering and construction costs involved in the areas near Lakeport Landing, Pickerel Cove, Perch Cove and the Weirs Beach bridge. I bet each section with be $1,000,000 or more.
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06-14-2017, 07:46 PM | #131 | |
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Bridges are Very Expensive
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06-15-2017, 07:28 AM | #132 |
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Severance Rd to Hilliard Rd.
That's a new one! SB/LB is all for the Parade Road to Hilliard Rd route, which comprise of a steep hill that most people would think twice about. The Severance Road cut will be a must nicer proposal if the SB/LB will accept it. I bet because Severance Road cuts through their 'back yard', they may not approve it.
The problem is federal and state grants. They are set up for approval along existing or old RR beds. Where is the money going to come from if they change the route? Also I believe Class 6 roads are privately owned and may require easements from current deeds. This brings up the Durrell Mountain Road and Hoadley Road fiaso. located on the Gilford and Belmont Line. Both roads are Class 6 and used by 4X4 and ATV for years. After a lengthy battle the court agrees the roads transferred to abutting landowners by some statute of limitation and were declared private properties. Hoadley Road is closed. Durrell Mountain is closed to motorized vehicles except snowmobiles. The Severance Road proposal is a good one, but it looks like it faced a lot of obstacles.
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06-15-2017, 12:50 PM | #133 | |
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I recently looked at the WOW trail map and one thing I notice is that parking could become a serious problem for the downtown. Assuming the trial is a huge success it may not be far-fetched to assume 500 cars could converge on the downtown and be left parking for four or five hours while people are riding on the trail. That could really create a huge economic downturn in for the downtown. A WOW trail welcome center on Severance could help with such a problem. In the event that the demand for parking exceeded what could be made available near severance there is the additional parking option of Robbie mills Field and Elm Street school. The welcome center could be operated for profit to benefit the trail and offset the loss of federal funding for the portion that isn't along the tracks. |
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06-15-2017, 01:06 PM | #134 | |
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It would be much cheaper though
Quote:
which we know is also of issue. Jetskier |
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06-15-2017, 01:52 PM | #135 | |
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Quote:
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06-15-2017, 01:59 PM | #136 | |
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Quote:
This is a public safety concern after-all. |
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06-15-2017, 02:02 PM | #137 | |
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LB and SD HOA
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Oh Well!!!! |
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06-15-2017, 03:39 PM | #138 |
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Their web site domain is public and it is a free country to post it. Although they can restrict access to their site and to what the general public can see.
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06-15-2017, 03:59 PM | #139 | |
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Implied
Quote:
I am sure if I agreed 100% with their position it would not have become an issue. |
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06-16-2017, 07:39 AM | #140 |
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Why does the WOW trail have to be seasonal? It would make a great snowmobile trail as well.
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06-16-2017, 07:48 AM | #141 |
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SD/LB Preservation?
If they want to preserve the land, why are they building on the land? They should leave it alone and let nature do her thing! Preservation my butt!
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06-16-2017, 09:12 AM | #142 | |
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06-16-2017, 10:07 AM | #143 | |
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06-16-2017, 11:02 AM | #144 |
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Given his other posts on this thread, I don't think it's satire. I think it is more "belligerent keyboard warrior". If I'm wrong, and it's satire, I'm sure he'll be happy to correct me and let us know that his comments/suggestions were all in jest.
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06-16-2017, 11:07 AM | #145 | |
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06-17-2017, 06:44 AM | #146 |
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Osha
I remember when OSHA was formed in the mid 70's. I was a grocery clerk at a large supermarket chain. OSHA made a ruling that if you are working with anything that requires you to work above the neckline you are required to wear a hard hat. Well believe it or not there was a time we were stocking shelves with hard hats on!
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06-19-2017, 05:49 PM | #147 | |||
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My post was just pointing out how ridiculous that particular argument is. (IMO) If you choose to throw "Its a safety issue" at the wall to see if it sticks, so be it; Just be prepared for other to dispute it. If public safety is an issue with the private marina (as implied) and they can not operate SAFELY within their property, than it is an OSHA issue not a WOW trail issue. Quote:
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06-21-2017, 07:01 AM | #148 | |
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06-21-2017, 07:14 AM | #149 | |
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06-21-2017, 08:58 AM | #150 | |
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06-23-2017, 11:38 AM | #151 | |
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Alternative route rejected in February?
Quote:
"They asked if an alternative route (not along the lakeshore) had ever been considered and I was able to explain that, as recently as February, we had suggested an alternative route through their property for consideration, but that this alternative route had been rejected by their executive board." |
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06-23-2017, 12:15 PM | #152 |
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Nicely worded letter. I especially like the subtle reminders about the state-owned ROW and development plan requirement for the path.
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06-23-2017, 08:46 PM | #153 | |
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The proposal from Baygo and SD is to route up Elm Street and across Rt 106. The trail could either go down Severance Drive or continue about 1.2 miles on Rt 106 where it could directly cut into the state forest. There was an engineering study done a while back proposing this as the best route. If the WOW org wants a copy, it can be supplied. Advantages: + Baygo has offered to provide land for a welcome center and parking. + Construction costs will be considerably cheaper than building along the frontage...no fence, no bridges etc... + The route uses public ROW along roads...no issues. + No issue connecting to the Weirs (connect via Hilliard Rd)...don't have to deal with the trestle underpass. + The trail would not be operating alongside an active railroad or contending with marinas or traffic crossing to the shore front. + The trail can be built even if Federal funding dries up (indications are that it probably will). + The environmental impact is minimized In addition, it has been suggested that the Hobo railroad could be fitted with bike racks and connect segments without building along Paugus Bay (that was also rejected by the WOW Org.) Another viable option is to consider the trail from Severance Drive to the Weirs. This would make Tavern 27 an end point and the welcome center would be at the beginning of a trail segment. SD/LB have reached out many times over a number of years to try to reach a viable solution that does not involve the frontage or crossing private property. The article miss-characterizes the history of the interaction. Jetskier |
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06-26-2017, 07:59 AM | #154 | |
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All this conservation land that cant be developed because of some who knows frog or beetle or worm, or some wildlife, and also abutting conservation land and you can't do this or that or anything in general. Yet in my town they blaze a bike path/trail right down the middle of conservation land and marsh water area with a bridge 12 feet wide and winding in and right down the marsh area atleast 400 feet long with signs, covered areas and bump outs to sit and giant pilings right into the marsh and everything, just like this alternative would blast right into a forest. Again I think the path in my area is fine in that area, but funny how someone couldn't put a shed on their own property within 15 feet of the conservation land you abut because some soft shelled spotted turtle lives somewhere on the other side of the marsh land and may visit and be scared by your shed
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06-27-2017, 08:41 AM | #155 |
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Hilliard Road
For those proposing Hilliard road as an option to connect to the Wiers, have you walked that road, any part of it, narrow, and some major hills, and not well maintained
No dog in this fight, but my guess is that the budget doesn't fit any way they run this trail, it always costs more than they plan.... |
06-27-2017, 10:35 AM | #156 |
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Like WOW! ....what a great trail!
Via the proposed www.wowtrail.org, peddling a bicycle the 9-miles from the Laconia Public Library to the Meredith Public Library, all along the flat, easy to peddle Wow Trail could take maybe one or two hours to do it. One hour on a bicycle is probably doable for many people, plus the flat terrain of the railroad, waterfront right of way works good for bicycles.
Weirs Beach has a beach, and is located right in the middle of the 9-mile long Wow Trail, so that could be a good spot to park your bike and go hit the beach......seems like it's all very doable? Once the Wow Trail gets built and is one year old, people will be saying ...... Like WOW! ....what a great trail!.....so, how come this wasn't built like 40-years ago ....how come it took so long to get it built........wow!
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06-28-2017, 01:55 PM | #157 |
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route
The latest map I've seen looks like it will not follow the tracks all the way to the weirs, instead detour around pickrel and singing coves (i guess making use of Hilliard Road) Is that correct?
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07-21-2017, 08:59 AM | #158 |
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An article on WOW Trail "ambassadors": http://www.laconiadailysun.com/commu...railambassdors
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07-21-2017, 09:35 AM | #159 |
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Last week I decided to try this trail out. First impressions were great. The section from Laconia to Winnisquam was peaceful. You get some views of the lake but most is obstructed by trees which is fine. The section from Laconia to Lakeport was a little more dreary only because you have to use streets a little bit and also see more of the backs of business. Still it was nice to be able to ride that distance without worrying about car traffic.
I was surprised how much the trail was used. I passed several families walking and/or riding, some joggers, some retirees strolling along, some dog walkers and some bicyclists. All in all I'd say I passed about 30 people in the 2 times I used it. Unfortunately we did see a guy passed out at the picnic table at the Lakeport end but it is what it is. Overall it was nice. If they ever get the section from Lakeport to Meredith built I believe it would be very popular. The total mileage of the current trail isn't much but its still something relaxing to do and burn a few calories. |
07-21-2017, 09:53 AM | #160 | |
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08-12-2017, 07:47 AM | #161 |
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State says lawsuit is premature
Looks like the State isn't biting on this lawsuit.
http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx...suit-premature |
08-12-2017, 05:44 PM | #162 | |
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Not the case
Quote:
The WOW Org has been saying that they would be filing plans by the fall for Phase III. Now they are saying that it might be 4 or 5 years before they file plans. That is what they told DOT. The litigation was filed based upon the view that the WOW Org would imminently be filing plans with the city - that is what they publicly said. DOT had to respond to the SD/LB petition by 8/11/17 and they requested an extension of 30 days. SD/LB agreed to this extension. DOT's concern is whether the action is premature since now the WOW Org is saying that it is going to be years (a different story than a few months ago). So, fundamentally no action has been taken by either side. SD/LB have the right to proceed to court and DOT has the right to determine whether they want to settle this by not granting permission to the WOW Org. If the litigation is delayed, it is just that. It will be simply be put aside until things progress...if that is the decision. The basis of the litigation stands. It is clear that the article in the Laconia Daily Sun was focusing on a position that there was a motion to dismiss and that is simply not the case. The litigation is currently still very much in effect. Of course SD/LB does not want to waste state resources if the WOW Org is 4 or 5 years away from filing plans. Fundamentally, the route along the frontage does not make sense and the WOW Org would be well served to focus on one of the alternative routes that have been proposed. It would be less expensive, less intrusive and could be built more quickly than the route along the frontage. Tavern 27 has even offered land for a welcome center and parking. Just my 2 cents. Jetskier |
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08-12-2017, 09:12 PM | #163 | |
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Quote:
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08-12-2017, 09:33 PM | #164 | |
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Not at all
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So, let's look at Phase II economics: $400k came from the of Laconia (beautification fund) $500k came from federal grants $100k came from fund raising Phase III is purported to cost $10M (my analysis with bridges etc is actually more like $15M to $20M). The city of Laconia (I am told) does not have money to donate with all the other projects and commitments. So, that would mean: $4M federal grant (pro rata, if available) $6M - $16M to be raised If the trail goes along one of the alternate routes the cost is only a fraction as there are no bridges to build, fences to separate the train from the pedestrians, trestle bridge issues etc... The route along the frontage is fraught with issues and associated costs... Jetskier |
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08-12-2017, 09:41 PM | #165 |
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Sorry I completely disagree. The alternative plans do not eliminate all the bridges only one and no matter the route the federal funding is absolutely needed. All of the routes contain many obstacles it is certainly not as easy as your making it sound.
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08-13-2017, 03:56 PM | #166 | |
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Go bully some other state/city/town |
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08-13-2017, 06:15 PM | #167 |
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^ haters gonna hate
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08-13-2017, 06:53 PM | #168 | |
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Quote:
I have been on the snowmobile trails through the woods and reviewed the maps....nothing onerous. Jetskier |
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08-13-2017, 07:30 PM | #169 |
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Jetskier
Jetskier your views are extremely clouded by the fact that you are a south down resident and do not want the trail through the community. Conveniently forgetting the fact that the trail and ROW were all agreed to in the original community plan. Yes I am a former Long Bay resident, yes as long as it is constructed properly and is esthetically pleasing I am all for the trail and finally yes I do currently have ownership interest is south down property. It is also my opinion that long term the trail will have a substantial positive impact not only Laconia but all the communities along the trail.
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08-13-2017, 08:11 PM | #170 | |
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Just stating facts...
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I think that this discussion has reached larger heads...I am just presenting the facts. I have no control over what the WOW Org decides to do...and you now live in Meredith Bay not South Down. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I would suggest that we simply leave it at that. Jetskier |
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08-14-2017, 01:29 PM | #171 | |
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Thank you, Jetskier
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Could this $400,000 in beautification money from Laconia and $500,000 in federal grant money you mention be reserved for Phase 3 and the pending lawsuit? |
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08-14-2017, 04:45 PM | #172 | |
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Phase II funding info
Quote:
My understanding is that the $400k donated by the city came from the TIF loans (you have a link in your email which describes the $400k for phase II). I have been told that the money was placed in the budget under "beautification" of down town which is consistent with the projects listed in the linked article. I have talked to a couple of teachers who are upset about the expenditure based upon the lack of money for teacher's salaries; however, I don't know that the money would have been able to be reallocated to other purposes. It is a loan and has to be paid back by the city, so at some level, it affects the city budget as a debt service....read not free money. The $500k came from a federal grant...All of the money was spent on Phase II (total construction cost of $1M). The federal grant is essentially free money. Private fundraising provided $100k of the costs. The WOW Org is a 501c nonprofit and their financials are public record. Their EIN number is 45-0509781 if you want to look at 990s or other records. Hope this helps. Jetskier |
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08-14-2017, 07:36 PM | #173 | |
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Federal grants?
Quote:
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08-14-2017, 08:19 PM | #174 | |
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WOW Trail Federal Grant Information
Quote:
Look at line #3 of the 2015 balance sheet (attached) is for Phase II. There was a grant of about $61k for Phase I. The grant number is H33C22A000349 and you can find information at this link: https://www.usaspending.gov/Pages/Ad...?k=WOW%20Trail Incidentally, you are by no means a pain...nice to have a factual interaction. Jetskier |
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08-14-2017, 09:15 PM | #175 | |
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Hmmmm...
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"Project Description LACONIA; WOW TRAIL PH 1; CONSTRUCT 7040' (Segments 7-10) SHARED USE PATH IN RR CORRIDOR FROM MAIN ST TO ELM ST; [04-28TE]" As I recall, Phase 1 was built in 2010, which makes sense given the dates of the federal grants your link mentions. I still can't find anything about a federal grant for Phase 2. |
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08-15-2017, 10:28 AM | #176 | |
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Actually not
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Jetskier |
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08-31-2017, 04:15 PM | #177 |
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Rusty McLear weighs in on WOW Trail
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09-01-2017, 09:16 AM | #178 | |
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WOW Trail
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09-01-2017, 11:07 AM | #179 | |
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Someday may never be an actual day. |
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09-01-2017, 02:21 PM | #180 |
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WOW Trail
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10-17-2017, 03:09 PM | #181 |
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Lawsuit Over WOW Trail Withdrawn
It's unfortunate that SD/LB had to pay legal fees for this lawsuit that their attorney now says is premature. Why didn't someone check to see if the WOW Trail filed formal plans before paying an attorney to file a lawsuit?
http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx...n-as-premature |
10-17-2017, 03:41 PM | #182 | |
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WOW Trail
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As an aside, I was happy to read that there is little or no money for Phase III. It's going to take a lot of money to implement, so this is good news for those of us who do not want to see Phase III constructed. |
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