Island house closing and winter access?

[Webbsatwinni]

We are new to the forum (we have been reading it for sometime). We are in the final stages of purchasing a Rattlesnake property and would like to get the forums opinion on closing it for the season and winter access.

When is the latest we can close it, as we will be finalizing on Oct 18th, could we spend a few weekends there and then close it?

We have a good idea on what to do to close it, we are also going to hire someone to help the first year. That said, is there any advice for our first time?

Would it be fair to expect to be able to spend a few weekends up there throughout the winter? I know we would need to bring in water, but are there other concerns? And what would be better, a snowmobile of small hovercraft?

This forum is great, we have spent quite a few weeks up on the lake renting before we decided to buy, this forum provided lots of great and useful information.

Thanks.

[codeman671]

You should be ok through early November as far as keeping the water on, although depending on your system you may be ok later. I would suggest talking to Steve Buzzotta at Island Support to help you in the beginning.

Some of the islands do tend to lose power a lot in the winter, I know Rattlesnake was out for a while last winter. What kind of heat source do you have? You should plan ahead now, if you need propane or wood you should make sure plenty is on hand for the witner visits.

As far as winter use, I would personally suggest an airboat as the safest method but depending on the ice conditions and when you want to go out a snowmobile is fine. Hovercrafts, unless you go big, do not have much of a payload and tend to be more tempermental. Watch out for pressure ridges and open spots if you are not used to the lake in the winter. It can be a dangerous place, and help is not readily available if something happens on the ice.

[Dave M]

You may want to look at previous thread Camp Open/Camp Close from last Nov.

Dave M

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Welcome to the Island. We are about to close for the 5th time on the island. What drives us out is not usually on the island but is related to the boat.

The boat is OK as long as it is in the water but the problem is when we take it out and put it on the trailer for transport and waiting for the Marina to winterize. Mid November can get cold enough to cause damage as the boat is on the trailer. The other problem is the marina we go to runs out of work and wants to close down so that is usually what pushes us to finally give up.

The fall air temperature going across is usually not as bad as the ice out air temp can be when the water is very cold (and dangerous).

On the island we don't have any trouble with pipes in early November but I remove water pressure after about the 20th of October just in case. I worry about the line going into the water. Radiational cooling of the line is my biggest concern but has not been a problem yet. Watch the docks as the water on the dock can freeze quite easily.

I will say that we enjoy the fall at the island but rainy days in late October are a lot less fun than in July. It is nice having the lake to yourself.

We have a small compressor we use to blow the pipes out when the last day finally comes.

Now you will appreciate all the post about ice out.

Welcome and good luck.

Don't forget the water in the sink trap.....

PM if you need any advice.

[secondcurve]

Does Rattlesnake have any year round residents? I know a couple of the islands do, but I can't recall which ones.

[Webbsatwinni]

Thanks for the great feedback, we will try a few times in late October (It will be ours on the 19th if all goes well) and over the winter (snowmobile this year, maybe an airboat next year).

We will have electric heat and a fire place, for the fire place we will stock up on compressed fire logs. The logs burn for 6 - 8 hours, throw more heat and make little to no mess, we use them at home all winter long.

Codeman,

What is a pressure ridge and are there tell tale signs of open spots outside of the obvious?

Thanks again, this forum is a great asset to have.

[codeman671]

I will cheat on my explanation...

From Wikipedia:

"A pressure ridge is an ice formation typically found on large frozen lakes during the winter. In the most basic sense, a pressure ridge is a long crack in the ice that occurs because of repeated heating and cooling on the surface of the lake.

In cases of extreme cold, ice will shrink in volume like any other solid, opening up cracks in the surface of lakes that are completely frozen over. The cracks quickly fill with water and freeze again, but when the temperature rises later, the ice expands and forces itself upward along the lines of the crack, in much the same fashion that plate tectonics creates mountain ranges, albeit on a much smaller scale. Pressure ridges can sometimes extend for miles, making an ice road impassable for truckers hauling freight to far northern locations."

Usually a pressure ridge is very easy to spot from a distance unless there is a lot of snow cover on the lake. You must be very cautious when crossing one, and when traveling in the vicinity of where one may have been that settled back down. The ice can be quite thin/unstable and often times pockets of open water can be left. As far as open water you must watch ahead of you for apparent wet spots as well as differences in the coloration of the ice. Depending on where you are leaving land from there are some usual spots in the Rattlesnake area that have ridges and/or wet spots so I am sure some of the residents in the area can point out where to avoid.

I usually tell newbies to winter lake travel to watch the ice fisherman, they are usually "in the know" of where to go. When you start to see trucks on the ice it is a good sign that you should be safe on a sled (beyond a normal doubt). Sounds silly, but just because sleds are out there, it does not mean things are safe. A few times this spring when I was out in the airboat I witnessed sleds that had no right being out there and were lucky to make it home without getting wet.

[oliviernh]

Welcome to Rattlesnake Webbsatwinni,

Last year we visited our place on Rattlesnake until the 3rd weekend of November. At that point we pulled our boat as we did not want to take the chance of it freezing and causing damage to the boat. I think if you have an outboard you can go longer as the risk of freezing isn't as great as an i/o.

We have Steve Buzzota at Island Support Services do all our closing/opening. He blows the lines, put's antifreeze in all the traps and puts our dock circulator in and danger sign up. He also checks on it during the winter. Depending on your systems you may not have running water in the winter and Rattlesnake does have a tendancy to lose power.

Also make sure you bring a bunch of extra close out and leave them there. I got wet last year on a rough ride out and didn't have extra warm close...it was not pleasant...last time I made that mistake.

As far as going out in the winter...I like Codeman's airboat (although I haven't gotten a ride yet!)...Someday that is what I'd like but I know others that go out on snowmobiles or walking...just be careful. Tough to get help that time of year. Enjoy!!

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

Thanks again, this forum is a great asset to have.

You said it right there. Welcome to the Forum. There is an infinite wealth of knowledge right here with many members making winter trips out to the Islands. Heed the advice that most give you including ice safety, power, extra clothing and emergency rations. There is absolutely nothing that compares to going to an island location in the winter. Paradise.

Blue Thunder

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Don't forget the water in the sink trap.....

Don't forget leftover water in the mixing valves for the shower, and your icemaker if you have one! We lost a mixing valve during our first winter.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Don't forget leftover water in the mixing valves for the shower, and your icemaker if you have one! We lost a mixing valve during our first winter.

Hummm glad to know I wasn't the only one that forgot the shower mixing valve..... as a precaution these days I take the valve in the shower completely apart.... Luckly I don't have a ice maker... because I will garentee that I would forget all about.....

On this subject I have never blown my lines out for the most part everything drains fairly well. However the past couple of years I have had some issues and am now considering blowing the lines out. Is there a fitting one can buy to inject the air into the water pipes?

[idigtractors]

Man all you people are bringing back so many memories of when I did it all and at that time it didn't seem all that bad, but now that I have a year run place it is like "Set it and forget it". Just leave the heat at 52 degrees and forget it. If power fails the alarm notifies me 90 minutes after going off and I call the emergency number and check to see about how long it will be off as the home stays warm for a real long time. I have never had to go and turn on my auxiliary power in all the years I've had it. The phone is always there as it is connected to a cell phone as I monitor 2 places and the other one is 4 miles away in another town. Oh, the wonders of new technologies.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

On this subject I have never blown my lines out for the most part everything drains fairly well. However the past couple of years I have had some issues and am now considering blowing the lines out. Is there a fitting one can buy to inject the air into the water pipes?

The highest water point in my place is the shower head. I remove the head and screw on an adapter that I have made up. It has a male quick disconnect barb on one end that fits the compressor hose and the female shower thread on the other. My place was piped with loops in the piping so I have no choice. Don't forget the hot water heater and to drain the pump.

My previous owner was nice enough to show me the ropes. I would highly recommend hiring someone to show you what to do for at least the first year.

The biggest single thing we did to make opening/closing easier was to do some pluming modifications around the pump that pulls the water from the lake.

Warning potentially boring details ahead.

We installed a ball valve above the pump so we could prime it without taking any pipes apart. We installed a second valve in the suction side before the check valve so we can easily fill the line going down to the lake. A third valve after the pump with a pressure gage. Centrifugal pumps start best with some restriction. We are about 20 feet above the lake which can make startup a challenge. We prime the pump and the line to the lake. Start the pump with the output side restricted. When the pressure starts building we slowly open the valve and let any air work it's way out. This has turned a rather confusing thing that took a couple of tries into something the kids can do without my help. (Priceless)

We have never made it out to the island during the winter. I can tell you that heating our place with base board electric is a real challenge late in the year. A house at 30 degrees needs a lot of BTU to warm the mass. We installed an oversized wall mount heat pump which is efficient down to about 50F and that thing warms the air in the camp up in minutes. It keeps the air warm while the mass catches up.

[Webbsatwinni]

Thanks for all of the advice, we are looking forward to many years on the lake (warm or cold).

Thanks again!

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Is there a fitting one can buy to inject the air into the water pipes?

I make them up using common parts at the harware store. I use the female connector (brass) of a garden hose and the 1/4" npt fitting that connects to the standard air hose of your compressor. If you want, PM me and I can help you out.

Blue Thunder

[TomC]

I find a shop-vac in reverse works better than a compressor trying to blow through a 1/4" fitting.

I took a rubber, no-hub, coupling with one end worm-drive clamped to the end of my shop-vac hose (about 1" in diameter) and the other end clamped to an assembly of ordinary plumbing fittings to allow connection to the pipe in my shower (with showerhead removed). This is the highest point in the system and when I turn the vac on (blow) and open the various faucets one at a time, residual water is blown out. This method nicely clears the shower mixing valve too.

[idigtractors]

Originally Posted by TomC

I find a shop-vac in reverse works better than a compressor trying to blow through a 1/4" fitting.

I took a rubber, no-hub, coupling with one end worm-drive clamped to the end of my shop-vac hose (about 1" in diameter) and the other end clamped to an assembly of ordinary plumbing fittings to allow connection to the pipe in my shower (with showerhead removed). This is the highest point in the system and when I turn the vac on (blow) and open the various faucets one at a time, residual water is blown out. This method nicely clears the shower mixing valve too.

Very cleaver. I never thought of a vacuum cleaner in reverse. I guess it would have to be a shop vac as I don't belive I have seen a regular home vac with a reverse for blowning on them. Fittings would be very easy to make up for most any type of connection or you could use a piece of hose that fits over the pipe and a quick clamp would do the trick (Say a piece of 5/8ths garden hose.).

[Dave M]

Instead of taking apart the shower mixer, you may want to install a copper tee with an adapter above the mixer that has treads into the cold water line. When closing for the season I open up the adapter, turn the shower handle to mid point and feed anti-freeze(safe) down until it comes out the bathtub faucet. Been doing for 30 years, no problems. It easy for me to get at the back because I have knotty pine boards that I didn't nail and have a small handle to pull out.

Dave M

[idigtractors]

Originally Posted by Dave M

Instead of taking apart the shower mixer, you may want to install a copper tee with an adapter above the mixer that has treads into the cold water line. When closing for the season I open up the adapter, turn the shower handle to mid point and feed anti-freeze(safe) down until it comes out the bathtub faucet. Been doing for 30 years, no problems. It easy for me to get at the back because I have knotty pine boards that I didn't nail and have a small handle to pull out.
Dave M

When you'al talk about anti-freeze I'm assuming you are talking about RV anti freeze. If that is the case, I believe you should state so as someone out there will take you literally and use regular car anti-freeze in the system.

[DRH]

Originally Posted by idigtractors

When you'al talk about anti-freeze I'm assuming you are talking about RV anti freeze.

Yes, only non-toxic "RV" antifreeze should ever be used in a home's plumbing system.

Another thought: in addition to pouring antifreeze into the traps and toilet(s), don't forget the washing machine and/or dishwasher if your house has them. There is always water left in the internal pump in each of those appliances that needs to be replaced with antifreeze for the winter.

It's easy to do in either case ... just pour a quart or two (better to err on the high side) of antifreeze into the appliance, then turn it on and run it through the pump-out cycle so the antifreeze is drawn into the pump and hoses to replace the water. That will keep the water from freezing and ruining the pump and hoses, and creating a big mess the first time you run the appliance in the spring.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

Thanks for the great feedback, we will try a few times in late October (It will be ours on the 19th if all goes well) and over the winter (snowmobile this year, maybe an airboat next year).

We will have electric heat and a fire place, for the fire place we will stock up on compressed fire logs. The logs burn for 6 - 8 hours, throw more heat and make little to no mess, we use them at home all winter long.

Codeman,

What is a pressure ridge and are there tell tale signs of open spots outside of the obvious?

Thanks again, this forum is a great asset to have.

Hope this helps...

P.S.- Rattlesnake Island is in background of first two images and to right side in third image (Broads side).

[SAMIAM]

Just a further word to Webbsatwinni regarding pressure ridges. I have always found them to be safe. Any water accumulation is usually the result of the weight of the snow pushing down the ice and forcing water up, just as it does around ice fishing holes. While it's always smart to use caution on the ice, I wouldn't worry much as long as the ice is thick enough for travel. They certainly look ominous but when I approach one, I usually just look for a good spot to cross and then drive quickly over it.....not because of thin ice, but because the water sometimes will turn the snow to slush and you all know how much fun it is to get stuck in that stuff.

[Webbsatwinni]

Thanks GWC for the pics, that helps visualize what I need to watch out for. I have seen a lot of posts on ice safety and common sense seems to be the key.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

One small piece of advice for off season island life. We installed an answering machine that requires house power to answer. This allows us to check to see if we have power before the trip. Or if we loose power and go out for a while, we can tell when it comes back on. With any luck, it does not and we have an excuse to light the candles and really enjoy the lake most of all.

[Dave M]

Just to clear things up, I meant to say RV anti-freeze but couldn't think of it, although I did mention "safe". I could've been a lot clearer. I wouldn't use anything else.

Now a question. Like LIforrelaxin, my camp pipes drains good. Last year I had ice coming out of the main pipe from the well. They put it level in the camp(duh). On the main pipe is a valve like a tire would have and some other adapter that has a thread. Can either one be used to blow the lines out. I was told they were for adding air to my captive air water tank. I was thinking on using one of the small compressor for tires,etc. on to the valve. Am I asking for trouble here. I really only have to blow the main line back out to the well since there's a drainage adapter buried in the ground to get rid of water in the lines.

Dave M

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Dave,
The expansion tank has a rubber bladder which divides it into a water side and air side. The air compresses as the water pressure increases.

You can not blow out the lines by adding more air to this valve. It would only increase the air pressure on that side of the bladder.

You can add the air at any point but generally it is done at a high point. Also be careful as wells and pumps have check valves that will prevent the water from being simply blown out. I have one next to the pump and at the end of the inlet pipe in the lake. This is required to keep the water that is pressurized from simply returning when the pump shuts off.