How about those property taxes?

[wifi]

Seems lots of towns with lake front property think they have an endless well of cash to spend. Take Moultonboro for example. Anything anyone wants in town goes thru. New Muncipal building, followed by new Public Safety building, followed by a new Library, the next thing will be a new highway garage, followed by more and more and more...

Government needs to scale BACK.. too many programs. Give the taxpayers a break. What all these property taxes will bring is the errant thought that if we had broad based taxes (such as income or sales), the property taxes would go away.... Think again. Ever see taxes disappear? sure they may go down for a year, but then they somehow spring right back...

/takes deep breath....
/ducks

[NonVoting Taxpayer]

New highway garage in Moultonbourgh was built about 6 years ago on Rt 109.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by NonVoting Taxpayer

New highway garage in Moultonbourgh was built about 6 years ago on Rt 109.

That was the STATE highway garage, the town wants a new one to replace the TOWN garage on Playground Dr.

[Mr. V]

Property tax is based on the value of the taxed property.

Waterfront is taxed heavily because it is much more valuable, generally speaking, than non-waterfront.

So long as NH has no income or sales tax, property will be heavily taxed.

To your credit, NH politicians are pretty tight fisted (relatively speaking) and do not spend a lot of tax dollars on "liberal" social programs, as this reflects the conservative attitude prevalent in New Hampshire.

But government provides services which are not cheap; the money has to come from somewhere, and that "somewhere" is (currently) property taxes.

Personally, I think your state's taxation method is quaint and out of touch with the times, but oh well, I don't live there: although my family pays taxes for waterfront property.

Sure, we complain, and moan, but in the end it gets paid: it's the law.

Pay or sell, or change the law.

It really is that simple.

[Weirs guy]

Tax caps.

If I get a yearly COLA raise of say, 3.5% for arguments sake, thats all I get. If I wanted 5% because I just "need" a new car (fire truck), shed (city garage) or house (school), too bad. Why is it the local governments don't get held to the same standard? I may not be a big fan of the city of Laconia or Franklin where I'm originally from, but the tax cap is a big reason to stay in those places. Keeps the burden realistic.

[salukigirl]

In regards to the loan idea....It sounds good in theory, but shaky loan practices are what got us into this whole real estate crumble. What we have been forced to do is sell off small lots over the years to maintain the cabin and pay taxes. Many people on the board want to rant about condos going up everywhere, but please remember that some of the people on the lake still are 'little guys' who do what they have to in order to maintain a piece of family history.

I do not have information on orginal purchase price, but do have a deed from the 1880's where a family member purchased our current property from the estate of another family member for around $400. I highly doubt they foresaw and could adequetly plan for what the value is now.

Also, in the late 1800's my family owned a huge swath (like half the island) of bear island...which was supposdly won in a poker match, . The family member then turned around and sold during the same time period for a few hundred dollars! Can only image what that amount of property would fetch now!

[Irish mist]

I'm not that old......but man has NH changed, for the worse IMHO. Used to be the old-timers in town & city goverment did not need new buildings, new schools, new this, new that. They got by on less.....and that was the "philosophy" of the state. NH is starting to look & feel just like everyhere else.
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MEXICO HOTELS

[wifi]

Originally Posted by Irish mist

I'm not that old......but man has NH changed, for the worse IMHO. Used to be the old-timers in town & city goverment did not need new buildings, new schools, new this, new that. They got by on less.....and that was the "philosophy" of the state. NH is starting to look & feel just like everyhere else.

I am old and it hurts even more. You hit the nail right on the head.

Originally Posted by Long Island Baba

.... We can't have the Lakes Region turning into another southern NH mess. It certainly appears that way with the development going on. We don't NEED all this infrastructure. A few WANT it and the special interests vote them in. How about having the town live on a fixed budget for a few years and see what happens? Notice that this donor town/education funding thing isnt going away. ........

The more I see the more disgusted I get. This small charm thing gets pretty nasty when politics comes into play.

Again.... right on IMHO

[kjbathe]

Originally Posted by Irish mist

NH is starting to look & feel just like everywhere else.

That's because more of the folks from everywhere else are now here. And with them came many of the broken ideas/habits that prompted their original desire to relocate

[wifi]

It certainly is odd that people want to move here because they like it - then a few years later want to make it like it was in their former abode.

I guess its not polite to ask them to move back and leave us alone?

[Pineedles]

The amount of differation (word?) of taxes on different towns makes this thread hard to comment on. Moultonboro takes on 1M propety is 10 K.

[Irish mist]

I believe a 1 million dollar property in Laconia is about $30,000 dollars a year !
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ACTROS

[TomC]

Originally Posted by Pineedles

The amount of differation (word?) of taxes on different towns makes this thread hard to comment on. Moultonboro takes on 1M propety is 10 K.

so for a $1M property (as assessed), the annual bill would be under $8000 in Moult.

[Lucky2Bhere]

Question?.....For a state with so many vacation home owners what are the options besides property or sales tax. Should a relatively small group of permanent residents shoulder the load with an income tax? What would a fair answer be to all. The money has to come from somewhere and NH already has fewer services than many states.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

The only point I would like to make is that when I go to the town meeting back home in a small town in NH it gives me great sense of value to see the spending of the property tax is controlled by the local group trying to limit the tax rate. Every expenditure is put into terms of what it will cost a resident if they live in a $300,000 home or a $500,000 home. The discussion ensues like it should. The things worth doing get done and well....

I fear that broader based tax solutions would make those same town folks try to get as much of the "free state money" as possible. You see this now when a new school is discussed and the matching funds contributed by the state are treated as free.

We are the state.

Keep it local so it people spend like it is their own money....it is.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Keep it local so it people spend like it is their own money....it is.

RG - Well put!

[Airwaves]

Lucky2Bhere wrote:

Should a relatively small group of permanent residents shoulder the load with an income tax? What would a fair answer be to all. The money has to come from somewhere and NH already has fewer services than many states.

An income tax in NH would actually help many NH residents. I know, I'm going to be flamed, but many Southern NH residents work in Mass therefore they already PAY MASSACHUSETTS INCOME TAX!

In addition to the Massachusetts Income Tax they also pay very high NH property taxes. (no 2 1/2 limit in NH)
If NH had an Income tax then NH residents working in Mass would pay that money to NH. It would probably be less than they pay in Mass and it would benefit the state they actually live in!

With the additional income, NH could address issues either not being addressed now, or could allow local communities to reduce property taxes. That's where the voter comes in.

It certainly has been pointed out in the past that new taxes do not reduce out of pocket tax payments, but if NH took the money it gives to Mass and gave it to local communities in the form or local aid or whatever you'd like to call it, it certainly would help and spread the burden around a little more equitably.

But, you folks know best, til then I'll just enjoy your money!

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Lucky2Bhere wrote:

{cut}...many Southern NH residents work in Mass therefore they already PAY MASSACHUSETTS INCOME TAX!


If NH had an Income tax then NH residents working in Mass would pay that money to NH. It would probably be less than they pay in Mass and it would benefit the state they actually live in!....{cut}

Too bad we can't figure a way to only income tax the NH residents who work in Mass. Sounds too good to be possible. No additional tax burden and the remote "potential" for less property taxes. Must be a hundred reasons why not.

Hey, they tax our residents for working there, why can't we?

[kjbathe]

Before we start implementing an income tax in the pursuit of "equity" for NH workers commuting into the Bay State, we should note that Mass salaries are generally 5-10% higher than in Southern NH. Why? I've always chalked that differential up to the 5+% more Mass employees are paying at tax time. You still need to look at the overall tax burden. And NH's tax burden is still lower, even when NH residents cross the border each day for work.

People quickly lose sight of, or simply don't understand, the fact that when Federal Disasters are declared, or Federal Funds are sought, it's still coming out of OUR pockets. I really wish the government sent us bills for taxes each month rather than taking it directly out of checks before we even see them. Federal Funds to repair the collapsed Interstate in Minnesota: You and I are buying that. Federal Funds to repeatedly rebuild damaged homes in Hurricane, Tornado or Flood-prone areas: You and I are paying for those. Rebuilding New Orleans, a city 12 feet below sea level: I'm giving that to myself as a stocking stuffer this year. Wanting the State to fund education: Again, you and I will still be paying those bills, but adding more layers of middle men and women so that folks in Concord can decide how much of the money we send in should come back to us.

Isn't it easier if we just fund our own schools, public services, infrastructure and other local priorities? And in so doing, eliminate the 30-80% of overhead involved with sending our money someplace else so that they can decide not to send it back? For all the folks from other states touting the merits of the broad-based taxes, I've never heard an explanation for why their schools aren't any better, why their roads aren't as well maintained, or why their bridges are in greater disrepair. And they think NH should adopt these models? No thanks.

There also seems to be some assumption that NH is only open from May - September, after which we all close up shop leaving a dozen or so folks behind to keep the pipes from freezing until we need them next May. I don't have the stats, but would love to see a comparison of second homes to primary homes in the State. I'm guessing second homes rank well below 5% of the total homes in the state.

Part of the NH advantage is that we can (sometimes) control spending. Control spending, and you can control taxes. But there will always be the crowd that demands all sorts of new or additional services from the towns or cities, expects the State or "the Government" to fund those projects, and want the free money so that their taxes remain unchanged. Bottom line, those folks want all the perks but expect that someone else (you and I) should foot the bill.

Local Control. It's not perfect, but it's better than anything else people have offered as a real alternative to keep spending in check.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Kjbathe,
Well said! Great post. I think I will keep it in my wallet to use in case of emergency.

[Ropetow]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Lucky2Bhere wrote:


If NH had an Income tax then NH residents working in Mass would pay that money to NH. It would probably be less than they pay in Mass and it would benefit the state they actually live in!

:

Not quite. I pay state income taxes to MA because I work there. If NH sets a state income tax at the same rate (I think it is 5.25%) as MA, I would pay all of it to NH. And I'd much happier to do so. But if NH set a rate lower than MA, say 4%, I would pay 4% to NH and then the difference between the NH rate and the MA rate (in this example 1.25%) to MA. So I wouldn't save a cent. And does anyone think the current Concord Crowd would lower taxes, or just find more ways to spend the revenue. For an answer check out the latest state budget. As Ronald Reagan famously stated, the nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

[Airwaves]

RG wrote:

Hey, they tax our residents for working there, why can't we?

You can, but in order to do that NH has to impose an income tax. This issue was adjudicated in the 70's when NH imposed a "commuter tax" on out of state residents. The Supreme Court (I don't recall if it was NH or SCOTUS) ruled that a state may impose a tax on out of state residents only if they also impose the same tax on residents of the state. That means no commuter tax, no income tax, no sales tax for out of staters.

Ropetow wrote, in part:

But if NH set a rate lower than MA, say 4%, I would pay 4% to NH and then the difference between the NH rate and the MA rate (in this example 1.25%) to MA. So I wouldn't save a cent.

You're right, you would not save a nickel! I didn't say that you would. I said that the money, all of which you currently pay to Massachusetts, would go to New Hampshire instead of offsetting my Massachusetts income tax. You'll still pay 5.25% of your income in taxes, but instead of ME (or should I say MA) getting ALL OF IT, NH will get...say...4%? That means I only get 1.25% and NH gets to use the 4% it currently does not receive.

Mkjbathe wroe:

Mass salaries are generally 5-10% higher than in Southern NH.

Actually I think they are higher than that. An Ad Exec in Manchester and an Ad Exec in Boston, 10 percent? No. No one who actually thinks about it commutes into Massachusetts and certainly not into Boston where the money is, for a 5 or 10 percent increase in wages.

People commuting from NH make a Hell of a lot more money than they could "at home" that's why they put up with the commute to Boston and the Massachusetts income and sales taxes, not to mention parking! Don't get me started on that!

Forget I said anything!

[wifi]

Originally Posted by Lucky2Bhere

Question?.....For a state with so many vacation home owners what are the options besides property or sales tax. Should a relatively small group of permanent residents shoulder the load with an income tax? ......

Here is how one state, with many winter homes and lots of non resident traffic handled it:
http://www.pbcgov.com/papa/Exemption.htm
http://www.pbcgov.com/papa/SaveOurHomes.htm

Interesting concept, they have been doing it for 12 years.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by wifi

Here is how one state, with many winter homes and lots of non resident traffic handled it:
http://www.pbcgov.com/papa/Exemption.htm
http://www.pbcgov.com/papa/SaveOurHomes.htm

Interesting concept, they have been doing it for 12 years.

I think a cap on property value increases is not the way to do it. ( Hopefully I read the link right.) If a property is underassessed it should be fixed quickly when found. Everybody should pay their fair share, and in property tax that fair share is base on the assessed value of your property which is base on what you could sell it for. A cap on property value increases does not address the problem which is politicians wasting your money. A cap on the tax levy addresses this problem nicely. The politicians need to ask permission to spend outside of their means (which is the tax levy). The voters can say no. It's a nice system that makes pols a little more honest although it is not perfect.

[Irish mist]

Airwaves when you can name ONE state in the nation where an income tax, or extra tax, lowered property taxes over the long run I'll take you serisouly.......until then you are just blowing smoke.
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MEXICO CITY HOTELS

[Airwaves]

Irish Mist
I don't believe I said an income tax WOULD lower property tax. I said it would benefit the state you actually live in and could:

address issues either not being addressed now, or could allow local communities to reduce property taxes. That's where the voter comes in.

Note that last line...THAT'S WHERE THE VOTER COMES IN...That means elect folks that will do what you would like seen done. Perhaps lower property taxes, perhaps pay for kindergarten, whatever you want. That's what voting is for.

Don't vote then don't complain about how your tax money is spent.

In the meantime NH residents paying out of state income tax to Massachusetts benefits me, not you