Lost Our Loons

[LIforrelaxin]

This is troubling behavior from the Loon Center.... a pair with a baby shouldn't be touched, for many reasons.... While I understand the desire to tag loons to monitor aspects of their life, it isn't something that is really needed or important.

I hope the loon center provides an explanation..... but at the end of the day there isn't one..... just another example of good intentions going to far....

[Newbiesaukee]

We’ve seen ? the same pair of loons for many years…but yesterday was the first time we’ve ever seen a chick. Very exciting.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee

We’ve seen ? the same pair of loons for many years…but yesterday was the first time we’ve ever seen a chick. Very exciting.

Yes it is, my wife and I spend a good part of our time watching loons from a distance.... flight training can be especially interesting.....

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

This is troubling behavior from the Loon Center.... a pair with a baby shouldn't be touched, for many reasons.... While I understand the desire to tag loons to monitor aspects of their life, it isn't something that is really needed or important.

I hope the loon center provides an explanation..... but at the end of the day there isn't one..... just another example of good intentions going to far....

Without knowing TLC's reasons, I think it's premature to assume the worst.

Everything I know about TLC is good stuff, but it would definitely be nice to get an answer.

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[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Without knowing TLC's reasons, I think it's premature to assume the worst.

Everything I know about TLC is good stuff, but it would definitely be nice to get an answer.

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While I will agree that most things with the Loon Center are good and they do a tremendous job. Tagging animals of any sort, where it requires capturing them in the wild just to tag them is not an acceptable practice. Tagging an animal that has been rescued and then prepped for release is a different story.

Its not just the Loon Conservatory that does this, you see it all the time.....at the end of the day its just not a good thing..... Now if you can tag the animal with out capturing it they way they do whales and sharks then it is another story.....

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

While I will agree that most things with the Loon Center are good and they do a tremendous job. Tagging animals of any sort, where it requires capturing them in the wild just to tag them is not an acceptable practice. Tagging an animal that has been rescued and then prepped for release is a different story.

Its not just the Loon Conservatory that does this, you see it all the time.....at the end of the day its just not a good thing..... Now if you can tag the animal with out capturing it they way they do whales and sharks then it is another story.....

Do you know more than was posted or how/why TLC does what they do?

There is not enough info in the OP to know if anything is amiss and, like I said, I'll assume the best about TLC until I hear otherwise.

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[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Do you know more than was posted or how/why TLC does what they do?

There is not enough info in the OP to know if anything is amiss and, like I said, I'll assume the best about TLC until I hear otherwise.

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TLC does what every animal conservation society does, they try and learn more about the animals, one way the do so is by banding an tracking animals just like any other animal conservation society.... In general it is not a good practice to trap wild animals just to track them, end of story period. It causes them stress and anxiety, and can lead to adults abandoning off spring..... If they felt they need to tag the second adult they could have waited..... I am sorry if you feel offended that I would call out the TLC on a bad practice, but it is what it is....

If you think I am against the TLC well then your dead wrong.... I have and do feed them information when prudent based on the discoveries my wife and I find well observing loons all over the lake.... Just because I support them doesn't mean I have to agree with all of their practices....

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

TLC does what every animal conservation society does, they try and learn more about the animals, one way the do so is by banding an tracking animals just like any other animal conservation society.... In general it is not a good practice to trap wild animals just to track them, end of story period. It causes them stress and anxiety, and can lead to adults abandoning off spring..... If they felt they need to tag the second adult they could have waited..... I am sorry if you feel offended that I would call out the TLC on a bad practice, but it is what it is....

If you think I am against the TLC well then your dead wrong.... I have and do feed them information when prudent based on the discoveries my wife and I find well observing loons all over the lake.... Just because I support them doesn't mean I have to agree with all of their practices....

I'm not offended, and I didn't think you were against anything but the banding.

My only point was that the OP hasn't got an official answer or explanation and that I think TLC has done enough good to wait out the answer or assume the best.

I would do the same if someone posted a question or complaint about any other good organization/restaurant/business.

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[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Do you know more than was posted or how/why TLC does what they do?

There is not enough info in the OP to know if anything is amiss and, like I said, I'll assume the best about TLC until I hear otherwise.

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Certainly not against the loon center. They mean well but think they are using bad judgement to disturb loons at night for banding.
Not sure how much more info is needed. Bottom line is that the family has not been seen since.
Loon was banded by boat at 10:30 pm after notifying neighbors.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Certainly not against the loon center. They mean well but think they are using bad judgement to disturb loons at night for banding.

Not sure how much more info is needed. Bottom line is that the family has not been seen since.

Loon was banded by boat at 10:30 pm after notifying neighbors.

The info needed, for me at least, is why they do what they do.

They must have a reason for the timing, banding, etc. right? They work with multiple organizations and have been around a long time (according to their website, have been banding since the 90's) and I've heard/read almost nothing negative about the organization or their practices.

Edited to add: every article I could find about banding loons identifies the best timing as ~10-12 PM and that the best results are with families because they dive more. Sounds like the LCT is right on:

https://www.republicaneagle.com/news...2ed007396.html

https://vtecostudies.org/blog/banding-loons-by-night/

https://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2...servation.html

https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/midnight-banders.htm

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[tis]

They banded a couple of pairs here and they did it at night. We actually heard the loons screaming once. Obviously they don't like it.

[LIforrelaxin]

Yes the banding is always done at night, because that is when they have the best chance at being able to capture them..... Yes they have been doing this since the 1990's..... Don't get me wrong, I think that the LTC does everything correctly.

My statement over banding or placing tracking collars on animals of any type is the same. I don't like the practice, as humans we are interfering where we shouldn't..... The human race is all up in arms because with cell phones, RFID, and other assorted devices, we can be tracked..... but yet we force it on animals....

Anyways enough of my soapbox.....


In other news, we saw a family of four swim by last night, and a congregation of loons this morning (it look like there where about 10 that came together for a short period of time....)

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

My statement over banding or placing tracking collars on animals of any type is the same. I don't like the practice, as humans we are interfering where we shouldn't..... The human race is all up in arms because with cell phones, RFID, and other assorted devices, we can tracked..... but yet we force it on animals....

I generally agree with Think that it's silly/arrogant for amateurs to pit themselves against pros. But I have to admit you raise a great point here. We should want to understand not just whether the banding was done properly, but also why the benefits of banding in this situation outweigh the risk and stress to the animals.

Great thread! This is the kind of debate we should be having

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I generally agree with Think that it's silly/arrogant for amateurs to pit themselves against pros. But I have to admit you raise a great point here. We should want to understand not just whether the banding was done properly, but also why the benefits of banding in this situation outweigh the risk and stress to the animals.

Great thread! This is the kind of debate we should be having

There's definitely a line to be struck between nature and interference. Given the renewed populations of loons in my lifetime, though, I absolutely have to lean towards what TLC and other organizations have done/are doing.

The only reason Sam—we—have loons to discuss is the result of direct action.

Read those articles—what they've discovered about loons as a result of banding/tracking is pretty big.

Side note/addendum: my new puppy had a thermometer stuck up her butt yesterday and some hair pulled out of her ear canals. She didn't love either, but one will keep her ears from infections and the other discovered giardia—both of which could make her life much more unpleasant/short if left untreated. Sometimes interference is essential.

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[ITD]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

There's definitely a line to be struck between nature and interference. Given the renewed populations of loons in my lifetime, though, I absolutely have to lean towards what TLC and other organizations have done/are doing.

The only reason Sam—we—have loons to discuss is the result of direct action.

Read those articles—what they've discovered about loons as a result of banding/tracking is pretty big.

Side note/addendum: my new puppy had a thermometer stuck up her butt yesterday and some hair pulled out of her ear canals. She didn't love either, but one will keep her ears from infections and the other discovered giardia—both of which could make her life much more unpleasant/short if left untreated. Sometimes interference is essential.

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Giardia will ruin your day too, be careful.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by ITD

Giardia will ruin your day too, be careful.

Absolutely—thanks!

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[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

There's definitely a line to be struck between nature and interference. Given the renewed populations of loons in my lifetime, though, I absolutely have to lean towards what TLC and other organizations have done/are doing.

The only reason Sam—we—have loons to discuss is the result of direct action.

Read those articles—what they've discovered about loons as a result of banding/tracking is pretty big.

Side note/addendum: my new puppy had a thermometer stuck up her butt yesterday and some hair pulled out of her ear canals. She didn't love either, but one will keep her ears from infections and the other discovered giardia—both of which could make her life much more unpleasant/short if left untreated. Sometimes interference is essential.

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Sorry but I disagree that we only have loons because of their actions.
I've been on on the same bay since the 70's and the loon population was more robust in previous years.
I read the links and found them disturbing.
They net them at night with flashlights, wrap them in towels, take a blood sample, feather sample and band them before releasing. That is traumatic to any bird or animal.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Sorry but I disagree that we only have loons because of their actions.

I've been on on the same bay since the 70's and the loon population was more robust in previous years.

I read the links and found them disturbing.

They net them at night with flashlights, wrap them in towels, take a blood sample, feather sample and band them before releasing. That is traumatic to any bird or animal.

Totally anecdotal—there are far more loons today than in the recent past. They've been listed as vulnerable in NH for, what, 40 years? 50? And now they're listed as stable.

And, yes, nobody likes to invade nature, but—in my estimation at least—species survival > small-scale trauma.

We clearly disagree on this—I have faith in those who serve to protect our wildlife populations and, especially, those populations that are endangered by human activity.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...Ut6_uHKerYdGLo



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[Lakegeezer]

The loon center will no doubt provide their side of the story and I'm sure it is a good one. From what I've learned from LPC, the only way to tag the adults is to do it while they are protecting the chicks at night. Otherwise, they can't be captured. Non-breeding loons are not tagged. The tagging allows the scientists to record which territory a loon nests on, when they move and how many chicks each tagged loon produces. It would be a rare event for the adults to abandon their chicks after the banding process. While no doubt traumatizing, exhibited by the loon defecation that the intern holding the loon experiences, loons stick around and often don't mind being near humans.

Since artificial nests are a primary source of loon chicks in NH, the tagging goes along with the preservation of the species. Without the Loon Center, breeding would occur more to the north and we'd have fewer loons in NH. With the recovery of the eagle population, it is even more important that humans help to protect loon's reproduction cycle, because eagles attack loon chicks. Humans are responsible for much stress on the species, especially with shoreline development, water level changes and boat wake, so it is only right that humans help preserve them.

[LIforrelaxin]

So this is discussion is very good in my eyes... we all have view points as different as they maybe. While I have said my piece about the banding... Lets talk about some of the initiative that the TLC has done that have most certainly been effective in helping to restore the loon population:

1- working to create protected sanctuary locations to promote loon breeding in the wild
2 - the very successful floating nests that they have located around the lake, specifically adjacent to some of the sanctuaries.
3 - working to get rid of Lead fishing weights
4 - rescuing and rehabilitating loons in distress.

How much have these initiatives help bring back the loon population, that is hard to tell.... but they have had an impact.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

So this is discussion is very good in my eyes... we all have view points as different as they maybe. While I have said my piece about the banding... Lets talk about some of the initiative that the TLC has done that have most certainly been effective in helping to restore the loon population:

1- working to create protected sanctuary locations to promote loon breeding in the wild
2 - the very successful floating nests that they have located around the lake, specifically adjacent to some of the sanctuaries.
3 - working to get rid of Lead fishing weights
4 - rescuing and rehabilitating loons in distress.

How much have these initiatives help bring back the loon population, that is hard to tell.... but they have had an impact.

Agreed. I would add boating etiquette/advocacy to that list.

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[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

So this is discussion is very good in my eyes... we all have view points as different as they maybe. While I have said my piece about the banding... Lets talk about some of the initiative that the TLC has done that have most certainly been effective in helping to restore the loon population:

1- working to create protected sanctuary locations to promote loon breeding in the wild
2 - the very successful floating nests that they have located around the lake, specifically adjacent to some of the sanctuaries.
3 - working to get rid of Lead fishing weights
4 - rescuing and rehabilitating loons in distress.

How much have these initiatives help bring back the loon population, that is hard to tell.... but they have had an impact.

All good points LI ..........but 1,2 and 3 do not require disturbing them.
Only #4 would require contact and the is ,of course, a good thing.
We appreciate TLC just think the tagging is ill advised

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

All good points LI ..........but 1,2 and 3 do not require disturbing them.
Only #4 would require contact and the is ,of course, a good thing.
We appreciate TLC just think the tagging is ill advised

I'm pretty sure TLC would assert that the tagging is the only way they can track loons rigorously enough to know if the first 3 items and other interventions and human impacts are helping or harming, and by how much. It's the difference between a data-driven approach and just sort of hoping for the best

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I'm pretty sure TLC would assert that the tagging is the only way they can track loons rigorously enough to know if the first 3 items and other interventions and human impacts are helping or harming, and by how much. It's the difference between a data-driven approach and just sort of hoping for the best

I am not sure how useful the tagging has been in that regards..... One of the big initiatives to understand the loon population and weather it is continuing to grow or not, are organized counts of the loon population which happen yearly. These are done with the help of volunteers, who observe for several hours on a specified morning, and take notes about how many loons where seen, and where. As I recall the do also try and specify if the loon as been tagged or not.

To my knowledge, to make the tag useful, that have to get right up and personal with it..... which would mean re-capture...I have not heard of the TLC doing this... where the tags become useful are when dead loons are found they can put together a better time line of the loons life....