HUB status in Moultonborough

[Wishbone]

I looked on line, and there are several companies that this is their core business. I wonder if any of the ones who signed the document to put this on the ballot even contacted any one of these companies. If it is such a great need for the town, why wouldn't they fight to put a facility in Moultonborough??

[whalebackpoint'r]

So, I think all the proponents should form a company, pool their resources and purchase the property in question, build it and run it as a business, AND pay the real estate taxes to the town. A win-win-win for all!

[tis]

Originally Posted by whalebackpoint'r

So, I think all the proponents should form a company, pool their resources and purchase the property in question, build it and run it as a business, AND pay the real estate taxes to the town. A win-win-win for all!

I think that's a great idea.

[John Mercier]

The reason that government acts is because private business declines.

Since it only take 25 registered voters to petition it to town meeting vote, I expect that it will keep coming up.
That is unless it reaches the 60% threshold... after that they wouldn't need another vote.

They have bigger issues in my opinion, but this seems to be what the residents are focused on.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The reason that government acts is because private business declines.

Since it only take 25 registered voters to petition it to town meeting vote, I expect that it will keep coming up.
That is unless it reaches the 60% threshold... after that they wouldn't need another vote.

They have bigger issues in my opinion, but this seems to be what the residents are focused on.

Because it's become harder and harder for businesses to compete with government, only government can afford it.

[fatlazyless]

Waterville Valley is home to the www.wmacwv.com, a private business. It has an indoor 24-meter pool, heated to 82-degrees, and an outdoor, June thru October, 30-meter pool, heated to about 72-degrees.

For $600/year you can get an off-peak membership that excludes Saturdays, Sundays till 4-pm, Christmas week, MLK weekend, and the February Massachusetts school vacation week.

It has two large indoor hot tubs, heated to 104-degrees.

Today, May 16, 2023, the surface water temperature in Lake Winnipesaukee is 58 to 60 degrees depending where it gets measured on different areas in the big lake. Lake Winnipesaukee water surface temperature usually gets up to 70-degrees not until June 28.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Because it's become harder and harder for businesses to compete with government, only government can afford it.

Is there a business in Moultonborough already providing these services?

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Is there a business in Moultonborough already providing these services?

I didn't say that. I am saying I think it would be very hard for a private entity to invest 16 million dollars in such a business and operate it every year and be successful -in Moultonborough anyway, or any other area small town.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

I didn't say that. I am saying I think it would be very hard for a private entity to invest 16 million dollars in such a business and operate it every year and be successful -in Moultonborough anyway, or any other area small town.

That is true. That is what is meant by government acts because private business declines.

[tummyman]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

That is true. That is what is meant by government acts because private business declines.

When government acts, it frequently costs taxpayers huge sums because government has no idea how to manage things properly. Businesses don't act because they cannot rationalize the benefits of acting. Examples are everywhere. Frankly I would prefer government NOT act and it will save me money, whether it is in Wash., DC or Moultonborough !!! Waste is government's middle name !

[John Mercier]

You wouldn't have any roads.

That would fix a lot of problems pretty quickly.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

You wouldn't have any roads. ...

An argument in the absurd.

There are obviously some essential services that government must provide. Road management, fire and police protection, etc. A swimming pool and gym are NOT essential services.

Also note that even within the essential services, things like roads, the construction is done by private companies. That is because government is spectacularly BAD at providing business services, especially when dealing with costs, management, quality control, honesty and accountability, etc. Further, WHEN have you seen government projections of cost be accurate? Actual costs greatly exceed government estimates, either due to incompetence or dishonestly. Generally, the less the government gets involved with issues, the better the outcome. Private companies that can't manage their business properly go out of business. Government just stumbles on to make another mess; there is low/no accountability.

Also note that voters that think they can vote themselves whatever they want are foolish. The economic constraints on what a community can afford are not subject to a vote. The unique conditions of each community determine its ability to generate income and money spent on one thing preclude it being spent on something else. It's not unlike the household where the husband wants a new BMW, the wife a new house, the child a pony, and none of those things are affordable or practical for their finances. They might find a bank that will loan them money but they will struggle to pay their bills and other, more essential things that come up may not be possible to do.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by jeffk

An argument in the absurd.

There are obviously some essential services that government must provide. Road management, fire and police protection, etc. A swimming pool and gym are NOT essential services.

Also note that even within the essential services, things like roads, the construction is done by private companies. That is because government is spectacularly BAD at providing business services, especially when dealing with costs, management, quality control, honesty and accountability, etc. Further, WHEN have you seen government projections of cost be accurate? Actual costs greatly exceed government estimates, either due to incompetence or dishonestly. Generally, the less the government gets involved with issues, the better the outcome. Private companies that can't manage their business properly go out of business. Government just stumbles on to make another mess; there is low/no accountability.

Also note that voters that think they can vote themselves whatever they want are foolish. The economic constraints on what a community can afford are not subject to a vote. The unique conditions of each community determine its ability to generate income and money spent on one thing preclude it being spent on something else. It's not unlike the household where the husband wants a new BMW, the wife a new house, the child a pony, and none of those things are affordable or practical for their finances. They might find a bank that will loan them money but they will struggle to pay their bills and other, more essential things that come up may not be possible to do.

While I agree that government isn't always efficient, I see that as the price for equality.

As history has shown—through firefighting and policing organizations, education, information access, policy, etc.—private industry will always cater to those with money and disregard those without.

So, there is certainly a case to be made for establishments that benefit the public to be instituted and managed by the government, but the decision always pivots on collective value vs. cost.

It is hard for me to see a collective value to the whole of Moultonborough taxpayers, a sizable portion of which won't even be in the area half the year.

In fact, knowing how my local Y works in regards to pool access—which is barely available after local sports teams, other organizations, and restricted (cleaning/maintenance) times—I'm still not even sure what this place would be good for.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by jeffk

A swimming pool and gym are NOT essential services.

From the Brookline, Mass. town swimming pool ...... www.brooklinerec.com/150/Kirrane-Aquatic-Center ..... a list of fees which people PAY for swim lessons, splash 'n burn water exercise class, and pool use/laps practice.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

From the Brookline, Mass. town swimming pool ...... www.brooklinerec.com/150/Kirrane-Aquatic-Center ..... a list of fees which people PAY for swim lessons, splash 'n burn water exercise class, and pool use/laps practice.

The people of Brookline's choices doesn't make them ESSENTIAL services.

Frankly, I don't care if the town could make a lot of money by providing a pool and gym and charging money for it. There are thousands of things that people need/want/crave and, the for the vast majority of it, government should have no role in providing it.

Government should be a last resort provider, when other suppliers of the service are not possible/practical. Then the service WILL be provided, probably overpriced, with less quality, and a mismatch in the features but at least an essential service is available.

[tis]

Originally Posted by jeffk

The people of Brookline's choices doesn't make them ESSENTIAL services.

Frankly, I don't care if the town could make a lot of money by providing a pool and gym and charging money for it. There are thousands of things that people need/want/crave and, the for the vast majority of it, government should have no role in providing it.

Government should be a last resort provider, when other suppliers of the service are not possible/practical. Then the service WILL be provided, probably overpriced, with less quality, and a mismatch in the features but at least an essential service is available.

Government used to be about needs not wants-at least in our small towns.

[whalebackpoint'r]

My point exactly. The key here is 'essential services'. In this live free or die state especially, taxpayers who will never use this service would prefer not to be forced into paying for it and its upkeep. If you want less government control over your money, don't vote for more of it.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Government used to be about needs not wants-at least in our small towns.

That changes with voter attitudes.
As we moved from agrarian, we access to the railroads - generally subsidized by the federal government... and some state... with roads that handles teams of oxen and wagons; to the industrial... think modern industrial parks with all the services; to the ''tourist'' all about recreation...

Recreation became an ''essential'' service.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

That changes with voter attitudes.
As we moved from agrarian, we access to the railroads - generally subsidized by the federal government... and some state... with roads that handles teams of oxen and wagons; to the industrial... think modern industrial parks with all the services; to the ''tourist'' all about recreation...

Recreation became an ''essential'' service.

Some voter attitudes. It's the same as with kids, some parents want schools to totally take care of their kids, not just educate them. And look where that has gotten us.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Some voter attitudes. It's the same as with kids, some parents want schools to totally take care of their kids, not just educate them. And look where that has gotten us.

It only takes 60% of the population to not see frugality as reasoned.
I just don't think you will see Moultonborough devolve to its agrarian roots.

People love large homes and gas-powered toys.

The school education issue, according to the ConVal testimony, seems to be about State mandates.
Something that frugal legislators could change at any time... but that doesn't seem in the offering.
ConVal is a much bigger issue to Moultonborough and Alton on Winnepesaukee... Hebron and Bridgewater on Newfound; which is what stunned me seeing the movement of money toward Winnisquam - surrounding towns/Laconia not being exactly known for low tax rates. Belmont doesn't have an indoor pool... though we have pretty much everything else... and I suspect unless the movement toward homesteading becomes the major position of attitude in Belmont; we would in the not too distant future hear of a proposal.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

From the Brookline, Mass. town swimming pool ...... www.brooklinerec.com/150/Kirrane-Aquatic-Center ..... a list of fees which people PAY for swim lessons, splash 'n burn water exercise class, and pool use/laps practice.

The population of Brookline is 60,000, and they have no lake. This makes it quite reasonable to have a public swimming pool

[phoenix]

FLL one of your craziest posts. Look if 800 people show up 480 need to vote yes. Make sure anyone who is a no shows up.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by jeffk

An argument in the absurd.

There are obviously some essential services that government must provide. Road management, fire and police protection, etc. A swimming pool and gym are NOT essential services.

Also note that even within the essential services, things like roads, the construction is done by private companies. That is because government is spectacularly BAD at providing business services, especially when dealing with costs, management, quality control, honesty and accountability, etc. Further, WHEN have you seen government projections of cost be accurate? Actual costs greatly exceed government estimates, either due to incompetence or dishonestly. Generally, the less the government gets involved with issues, the better the outcome. Private companies that can't manage their business properly go out of business. Government just stumbles on to make another mess; there is low/no accountability.

Also note that voters that think they can vote themselves whatever they want are foolish. The economic constraints on what a community can afford are not subject to a vote. The unique conditions of each community determine its ability to generate income and money spent on one thing preclude it being spent on something else. It's not unlike the household where the husband wants a new BMW, the wife a new house, the child a pony, and none of those things are affordable or practical for their finances. They might find a bank that will loan them money but they will struggle to pay their bills and other, more essential things that come up may not be possible to do.

Government use to provide none of this.
It was the desire of the majority of the registered voters that created all of it.
What we deem essential today... was not essential in the past.