HUB status in Moultonborough

[ACME on the Broads]

Cobalt 12, I see you're a new (3/2023) member....we welcome you.

Great news, especially if you're speaking about beauty; Moultonborough's non residents and residents alike can swim in one of the most beautiful lakes country wide, Lake Winnipesaukee has over 59.7 miles of shorefront and 15.4 square miles of water in Moultonborough alone which also happens to be the largest lakefront community in the Lakes Region.

Hard to justify a "$15,000,000.00 beautiful facility," while within the community, we can all enjoy this natural treasure. It features easy access 24/7/365 to all residents and non residents.

[fatlazyless]

Today is May 15 and the Lake Winnipesaukee water temperature at the surface is about 58-60 degrees, right now, too cold for swimming. Lake Winnipesaukee surface water warms up to 70-degrees by about July 1, gets up to 78 on August 1, and descends trough the month of September from 72 back down to 60-degrees on September 30.

So's a huge issue with swimming in Lake Winnipesaukee all year around is that it is too danged cold for swimming like from September 15 through to June 15, it is too cold to swim.

[tbonies]

Originally Posted by ACME on the Broads

Cobalt 12, I see you're a new (3/2023) member....we welcome you.

Great news, especially if you're speaking about beauty; Moultonborough's non residents and residents alike can swim in one of the most beautiful lakes country wide, Lake Winnipesaukee has over 59.7 miles of shorefront and 15.4 square miles of water in Moultonborough alone which also happens to be the largest lakefront community in the Lakes Region.

Hard to justify a "$15,000,000.00 beautiful facility," while within the community, we can all enjoy this natural treasure. It features easy access 24/7/365 to all residents and non residents.

Cobalt - Welcome to the Forum. As always, there are many ways to view things. None are wrong and deserve respect. However, swimming in our natural treasure can be a tad chilly for the 8 months of Oct - May. Probably why many people (most not on this forum) would like access to a year round pool. There can be a lot of numbers thrown around but best I can tell, the annual cost to a taxpayer is about $350-400/$1 Mil of Assessed Property for 15 years to support financing of the facility and about $100/$1 Mil of Assessed Property to pay for maintaining the facility, assuming the town can't claw back usage revenues for non town users of the facility, which are probably substantial. Each taxpayer can gauge for themselves the value of both paying and how much time they invest on this chatter board debating it.

[Lakegeezer]

The Town meeting is rescheduled for Thursday, June 1 at 6PM.

[longislander]

Present tax rate is $4.78/$1,000 of assessment of which $1.25/$1,000 is municipal, only. County, Local Ed. , and State Ed. comprise the other three parts of total town tax
Then, depending on which year of a 15 or 20 or 30 year bond the increase will add to municipal.
The original bond used by the Hub proponents was a 20 year level principal bond at 5.5% interest. The fiscal year estimated tax rate increase ranged from .33 to .17 over the 20 years decreasing accordingly. The first year was .08 but the first year was interest only, and did not include the $775,000 annual principal payments. Total 20 annual payments would be $24,412,500.

Present tax rate is $4.78/$1,000 or $.00478 = annual tax
$200,000 x $.00478 = $956
$300,000 x $.00478 = $1,440
$500,000 x $.00478 = $2,390
$1,000,000 x $.00478 = $4,780

Then,
Using .25 as an increase:
$4.78/$1,000 + $.25/$1,000 = $5.03/$1,000 or $.00503

Assessment x Municipal tax rate = tax
$200,000 x $.00503 = $1,006
$300,000 x $.00503 = $1,509
$500,000 x $.00503 = $2,515
$1,000,0000 x $.00503 = $5,030

Assessment; new rate minus present rate = increase
$200,000 ; $1,006 minus $956 = $50 tax increase for that year
$300,000 ; $1,509 minus $1,440 = $69 tax increase for that year
$500,000; $2,515 minus $2,390 = $125 tax increase for that year
$1,000,000; $5,030 minus $4,780 = $250 tax increase for that year

Tax bills sent out semi annually.

Operating cost are not fixed, as is the bond. Extreme caution for operating cost.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by tbonies

Cobalt - Welcome to the Forum. As always, there are many ways to view things. None are wrong and deserve respect. However, swimming in our natural treasure can be a tad chilly for the 8 months of Oct - May. Probably why many people (most not on this forum) would like access to a year round pool. There can be a lot of numbers thrown around but best I can tell, the annual cost to a taxpayer is about $350-400/$1 Mil of Assessed Property for 15 years to support financing of the facility and about $100/$1 Mil of Assessed Property to pay for maintaining the facility, assuming the town can't claw back usage revenues for non town users of the facility, which are probably substantial. Each taxpayer can gauge for themselves the value of both paying and how much time they invest on this chatter board debating it.

No town should be in the recreation business of this magnitude.

Why hasn't a private for profict company presented a proposal ????

The elephant in the room is placing its nose inside your wallet or pocketbook.

[John Mercier]

Meredith town docks have to be in the vicinity of that level.

And none of the beach bathhouses are really cheap to build.

[Wishbone]

I looked on line, and there are several companies that this is their core business. I wonder if any of the ones who signed the document to put this on the ballot even contacted any one of these companies. If it is such a great need for the town, why wouldn't they fight to put a facility in Moultonborough??

[whalebackpoint'r]

So, I think all the proponents should form a company, pool their resources and purchase the property in question, build it and run it as a business, AND pay the real estate taxes to the town. A win-win-win for all!

[tis]

Originally Posted by whalebackpoint'r

So, I think all the proponents should form a company, pool their resources and purchase the property in question, build it and run it as a business, AND pay the real estate taxes to the town. A win-win-win for all!

I think that's a great idea.

[John Mercier]

The reason that government acts is because private business declines.

Since it only take 25 registered voters to petition it to town meeting vote, I expect that it will keep coming up.
That is unless it reaches the 60% threshold... after that they wouldn't need another vote.

They have bigger issues in my opinion, but this seems to be what the residents are focused on.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The reason that government acts is because private business declines.

Since it only take 25 registered voters to petition it to town meeting vote, I expect that it will keep coming up.
That is unless it reaches the 60% threshold... after that they wouldn't need another vote.

They have bigger issues in my opinion, but this seems to be what the residents are focused on.

Because it's become harder and harder for businesses to compete with government, only government can afford it.

[fatlazyless]

Waterville Valley is home to the www.wmacwv.com, a private business. It has an indoor 24-meter pool, heated to 82-degrees, and an outdoor, June thru October, 30-meter pool, heated to about 72-degrees.

For $600/year you can get an off-peak membership that excludes Saturdays, Sundays till 4-pm, Christmas week, MLK weekend, and the February Massachusetts school vacation week.

It has two large indoor hot tubs, heated to 104-degrees.

Today, May 16, 2023, the surface water temperature in Lake Winnipesaukee is 58 to 60 degrees depending where it gets measured on different areas in the big lake. Lake Winnipesaukee water surface temperature usually gets up to 70-degrees not until June 28.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Because it's become harder and harder for businesses to compete with government, only government can afford it.

Is there a business in Moultonborough already providing these services?

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Is there a business in Moultonborough already providing these services?

I didn't say that. I am saying I think it would be very hard for a private entity to invest 16 million dollars in such a business and operate it every year and be successful -in Moultonborough anyway, or any other area small town.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

I didn't say that. I am saying I think it would be very hard for a private entity to invest 16 million dollars in such a business and operate it every year and be successful -in Moultonborough anyway, or any other area small town.

That is true. That is what is meant by government acts because private business declines.

[tummyman]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

That is true. That is what is meant by government acts because private business declines.

When government acts, it frequently costs taxpayers huge sums because government has no idea how to manage things properly. Businesses don't act because they cannot rationalize the benefits of acting. Examples are everywhere. Frankly I would prefer government NOT act and it will save me money, whether it is in Wash., DC or Moultonborough !!! Waste is government's middle name !

[John Mercier]

You wouldn't have any roads.

That would fix a lot of problems pretty quickly.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

You wouldn't have any roads. ...

An argument in the absurd.

There are obviously some essential services that government must provide. Road management, fire and police protection, etc. A swimming pool and gym are NOT essential services.

Also note that even within the essential services, things like roads, the construction is done by private companies. That is because government is spectacularly BAD at providing business services, especially when dealing with costs, management, quality control, honesty and accountability, etc. Further, WHEN have you seen government projections of cost be accurate? Actual costs greatly exceed government estimates, either due to incompetence or dishonestly. Generally, the less the government gets involved with issues, the better the outcome. Private companies that can't manage their business properly go out of business. Government just stumbles on to make another mess; there is low/no accountability.

Also note that voters that think they can vote themselves whatever they want are foolish. The economic constraints on what a community can afford are not subject to a vote. The unique conditions of each community determine its ability to generate income and money spent on one thing preclude it being spent on something else. It's not unlike the household where the husband wants a new BMW, the wife a new house, the child a pony, and none of those things are affordable or practical for their finances. They might find a bank that will loan them money but they will struggle to pay their bills and other, more essential things that come up may not be possible to do.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by jeffk

An argument in the absurd.

There are obviously some essential services that government must provide. Road management, fire and police protection, etc. A swimming pool and gym are NOT essential services.

Also note that even within the essential services, things like roads, the construction is done by private companies. That is because government is spectacularly BAD at providing business services, especially when dealing with costs, management, quality control, honesty and accountability, etc. Further, WHEN have you seen government projections of cost be accurate? Actual costs greatly exceed government estimates, either due to incompetence or dishonestly. Generally, the less the government gets involved with issues, the better the outcome. Private companies that can't manage their business properly go out of business. Government just stumbles on to make another mess; there is low/no accountability.

Also note that voters that think they can vote themselves whatever they want are foolish. The economic constraints on what a community can afford are not subject to a vote. The unique conditions of each community determine its ability to generate income and money spent on one thing preclude it being spent on something else. It's not unlike the household where the husband wants a new BMW, the wife a new house, the child a pony, and none of those things are affordable or practical for their finances. They might find a bank that will loan them money but they will struggle to pay their bills and other, more essential things that come up may not be possible to do.

While I agree that government isn't always efficient, I see that as the price for equality.

As history has shown—through firefighting and policing organizations, education, information access, policy, etc.—private industry will always cater to those with money and disregard those without.

So, there is certainly a case to be made for establishments that benefit the public to be instituted and managed by the government, but the decision always pivots on collective value vs. cost.

It is hard for me to see a collective value to the whole of Moultonborough taxpayers, a sizable portion of which won't even be in the area half the year.

In fact, knowing how my local Y works in regards to pool access—which is barely available after local sports teams, other organizations, and restricted (cleaning/maintenance) times—I'm still not even sure what this place would be good for.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by jeffk

A swimming pool and gym are NOT essential services.

From the Brookline, Mass. town swimming pool ...... www.brooklinerec.com/150/Kirrane-Aquatic-Center ..... a list of fees which people PAY for swim lessons, splash 'n burn water exercise class, and pool use/laps practice.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

From the Brookline, Mass. town swimming pool ...... www.brooklinerec.com/150/Kirrane-Aquatic-Center ..... a list of fees which people PAY for swim lessons, splash 'n burn water exercise class, and pool use/laps practice.

The people of Brookline's choices doesn't make them ESSENTIAL services.

Frankly, I don't care if the town could make a lot of money by providing a pool and gym and charging money for it. There are thousands of things that people need/want/crave and, the for the vast majority of it, government should have no role in providing it.

Government should be a last resort provider, when other suppliers of the service are not possible/practical. Then the service WILL be provided, probably overpriced, with less quality, and a mismatch in the features but at least an essential service is available.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

From the Brookline, Mass. town swimming pool ...... www.brooklinerec.com/150/Kirrane-Aquatic-Center ..... a list of fees which people PAY for swim lessons, splash 'n burn water exercise class, and pool use/laps practice.

The population of Brookline is 60,000, and they have no lake. This makes it quite reasonable to have a public swimming pool

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by jeffk

An argument in the absurd.

There are obviously some essential services that government must provide. Road management, fire and police protection, etc. A swimming pool and gym are NOT essential services.

Also note that even within the essential services, things like roads, the construction is done by private companies. That is because government is spectacularly BAD at providing business services, especially when dealing with costs, management, quality control, honesty and accountability, etc. Further, WHEN have you seen government projections of cost be accurate? Actual costs greatly exceed government estimates, either due to incompetence or dishonestly. Generally, the less the government gets involved with issues, the better the outcome. Private companies that can't manage their business properly go out of business. Government just stumbles on to make another mess; there is low/no accountability.

Also note that voters that think they can vote themselves whatever they want are foolish. The economic constraints on what a community can afford are not subject to a vote. The unique conditions of each community determine its ability to generate income and money spent on one thing preclude it being spent on something else. It's not unlike the household where the husband wants a new BMW, the wife a new house, the child a pony, and none of those things are affordable or practical for their finances. They might find a bank that will loan them money but they will struggle to pay their bills and other, more essential things that come up may not be possible to do.

Government use to provide none of this.
It was the desire of the majority of the registered voters that created all of it.
What we deem essential today... was not essential in the past.