Cost of fuel...

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Both the old and new had good side impact ratings.
You have to remember... after everything/most things go electric... the only way to really gain ground will be for the Tesla to lose some weight.

Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…

[Juiced06GTO]

For anyone thinking solar, this is the quote I received to add a 12kw DC, 9.8KW AC system to my new barn. A 10kw AC system is the largest residential system they allow in Massachusetts. This includes net metering, enrolling in the new SRec program (not nearly as lucrative as the old program), and the federal tax credit which is 26% right now. The system would produce 101% of my current usage, less once I get the barn/workshop online.

This is for me to purchase it outright, no financing. Obviously financing it with interest is going to change your payback terms, as will great electric usage. The quickest payback is clearly purchasing outright, but the majority of people don't have a cool 44K to outlay to make that purchase. This company is local and has been in business for something like 15 years now, not one of the fly by night, disappear in a year companies, and is th eonly way I'd consider putting these on my house. I deal with plenty of solar companies in my line of work and have been burned by even the national guys, Solar City, Sunrun, and have no interest in supporting them.

[granitebox]

I'm getting a 12kW system installed at a cost of about $2.75/watt. I was very happy with that cost compared to other costs in the area.

The one huge thing with solar is you need to educate yourself. Solar installers possess the knowledge so they will suggest a system (or panels, or a specific invertor) that may or may not be what you want. Panel costs vary widely as does quality and efficiency at the end of the panels life (warranty) about 25 years. Panels do degrade in efficiency to the 80%s at the end of their life. Payback numbers I've seen are generally between 8-12 years depending on a variety of assumptions (these assumptions are almost always skewed in the installers behalf so again,) buyer beware.

On average, according to Solar Reviews - the average cost to install a system in New Hampshire is about $2.83/w.

https://www.solarreviews.com/solar-panel-cost

Get a couple opinions and quotes if you can.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Juiced06GTO

For anyone thinking solar, this is the quote I received to add a 12kw DC, 9.8KW AC system to my new barn. A 10kw AC system is the largest residential system they allow in Massachusetts. This includes net metering, enrolling in the new SRec program (not nearly as lucrative as the old program), and the federal tax credit which is 26% right now. The system would produce 101% of my current usage, less once I get the barn/workshop online.

This is for me to purchase it outright, no financing. Obviously financing it with interest is going to change your payback terms, as will great electric usage. The quickest payback is clearly purchasing outright, but the majority of people don't have a cool 44K to outlay to make that purchase. This company is local and has been in business for something like 15 years now, not one of the fly by night, disappear in a year companies, and is th eonly way I'd consider putting these on my house. I deal with plenty of solar companies in my line of work and have been burned by even the national guys, Solar City, Sunrun, and have no interest in supporting them.

Thanks for sharing your quote.
It’s frightening how much to spend on electricity over 20-25 years.

It’s a similar type quote I got from MassRenewables. Keep in mind. You ideally want to over size by 10-20% to cover NetMetering losses (20% loss on round trip to grid and back). If you are 101% you’ll end up paying 10-20%.

My ROI was quicker (6 years or so) with the better SRECs. I get back like $2-3K a year (at the start). But only for 10 years.

How did you get 12kw? Because it’s commercial?

Is there a residential limit in NH too?
I’d like to get 12kw in NH.

[granitebox]

12 KW install was not in NH, we are out west and the limit here is closer to 25kW.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by LakeDad

Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…

I paid $96K for the Model X in fall of 2019.
With 27k miles on it now, they are giving $94K (plus tax) in trade !!!
I guess you’d call that “less so”.

Don’t kid yourself, Ford is good at stripping it down to the bone to get a low base model price to reel you in. You think the interior of the $40K base will be better than a Tesla? Does that even include a radio? Don’t forget dealer mark up BS.

A nicely packaged Lighting with a decent battery will be $70K+, fully loaded is $90K+ The Cybertruck will be more for the dollar. Guaranteed. Don’t forget with Ford, the middle man (dealer) gets $10K of that. And another $10K in advertising. Ever seen a Tesla ad?

I think interiors of Tesla’s are something like a Honda Accord or something. With all the glass (which can make cabin louder) and lack of knobs and buttons it can sometimes feel cheaper. It really isn’t. It’s not a Porsche inside but it’s not cheaply made. QA issues can also make it feel cheap when a plastic trim piece pops out. But they are built like a tank. The S/X is entirely aluminum. Crash tests show they are not cheaply built.

I think people are saving real Money on a Model 3 if they keep them long enough.

Ford recognized the dealership model is dumb and copying Tesla on that too.

Folks are not buying it for a statement. People that don’t know what it’s like to own one think that. They are just an absolute blast to own. Even with the hiccups, QA issues, ordering issues, high price tags people can’t get enough of them.

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

I paid $96K for the Model X in fall of 2019.
With 27k miles on it now, they are giving $94K (plus tax) in trade !!!
I guess you’d call that “less so”.

Don’t kid yourself, Ford is good at stripping it down to the bone to get a low base model price to reel you in. You think the interior of the $40K base will be better than a Tesla? Does that even include a radio? Don’t forget dealer mark up BS.

A nicely packaged Lighting with a decent battery will be $70K+, fully loaded is $90K+ The Cybertruck will be more for the dollar. Guaranteed. Don’t forget with Ford, the middle man (dealer) gets $10K of that. And another $10K in advertising. Ever seen a Tesla ad?

I think interiors of Tesla’s are something like a Honda Accord or something. With all the glass (which can make cabin louder) and lack of knobs and buttons it can sometimes feel cheaper. It really isn’t. It’s not a Porsche inside but it’s not cheaply made. QA issues can also make it feel cheap when a plastic trim piece pops out. But they are built like a tank. The S/X is entirely aluminum. Crash tests show they are not cheaply built.

I think people are saving real Money on a Model 3 if they keep them long enough.

Ford recognized the dealership model is dumb and copying Tesla on that too.

Folks are not buying it for a statement. People that don’t know what it’s like to own one think that. They are just an absolute blast to own. Even with the hiccups, QA issues, ordering issues, high price tags people can’t get enough of them.

Conjecture and opinions. I stand by my own.
Buy what works for you.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by LakeDad

Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…

Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great

Unfortunately, I hate driving... so ''fun'' would never enter my equation. I am still upset that they removed the crank down window option on new cars.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Unfortunately, I hate driving... so ''fun'' would never enter my equation. I am still upset that they removed the crank down window option on new cars.

I’m not surprised you think driving isn’t fun in a $10K car that’s 12 years old with the closest thing to crank down windows you can find.

I wouldn’t either.

[John Mercier]

I didn't find driving fun in a brand new convertible sports car either.
I find driving to be tedious. Something I must do rather than desire to.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I didn't find driving fun in a brand new convertible sports car either.
I find driving to be tedious. Something I must do rather than desire to.

If you hate driving so much why discuss the merits of one vs the other.

Personally you couldn’t pay me to own a convertible in New England. About all they are good for is a July 4th parade. Or around the corner for fish and chips. Will you take it Sun Fried, Wind blown, Ears Blown or Freezing? I feel like I’m relaxing in the living room with the stereo going and the car driving itself.

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

If you hate driving so much why discuss the merits of one vs the other.

Personally you couldn’t pay me to own a convertible in New England. About all they are good for is a July 4th parade. Or around the corner for fish and chips. Will you take it Sun Fried, Wind blown, Ears Blown or Freezing? I feel like I’m relaxing in the living room with the stereo going and the car driving itself.

This is a meaningless challenge , an attack challenge, and I’m going to side with John here.

He was talking about financial merits and value.
You can discuss these without “enjoying” driving.

I’m a car guy and love driving. He doesn’t.
Ok, we don’t all have to like the same thing..

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by LakeDad

This is a meaningless challenge , an attack challenge, and I’m going to side with John here.

He was talking about financial merits and value.
You can discuss these without “enjoying” driving.

I’m a car guy and love driving. He doesn’t.
Ok, we don’t all have to like the same thing..

I think more meaningless as Elon is looking toward the self-driving vehicle.
Amory wasn't thinking of self-driving when he worked on the hypercar... just much more efficient.

Gary Reysa, a retired Boeing engineer, was doing more of the work in solar.
He was working on using hydrogen as a storage medium. So it was a basic presumption that hydrogen would be used to power the hypercar.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by LakeDad

This is a meaningless challenge , an attack challenge, and I’m going to side with John here.

He was talking about financial merits and value.
You can discuss these without “enjoying” driving.

I’m a car guy and love driving. He doesn’t.
Ok, we don’t all have to like the same thing..

It’s a stupid argument.

When folks are comparing Tesla’s they are usually comparing nicer cars like Audi’s, BMW’s, MB and if it’s worth switching to a Tesla. Or even a nice Hybrid. Not a 12 year old tin can. If driving cars isn’t important at all you could make a monetary argument it’s cheaper to go with 12 year tin can vs any car let a alone a Tesla.

It’s John turning yet another discussion into a stupid one.

Yes, it’s cheaper to drive old cheap cars.

You could argue it’s cheaper to not own a car and just use Uber too.

Why did he buy a new convertible sports car if he hates driving?
I don’t buy any of his BS, I think he’s bored and just trying to stir things up.

What challenge?
You making up more stuff in your head of how others are thinking again?

[John Mercier]

But that is where it must go if it is to survive...
Life cycle and value.

I do not have the 12 year old car... it was given to someone that drove it another 4 years.

Current auto is 2016. I would be comparing a new car to a new car in the same brand... Tesla isn't on my list. It would be an Ioniq against an Accent. I don't spend enough time in a vehicle to make it worth more than basic transportation.

But the concept should be the same...

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

But that is where it must go if it is to survive...
Life cycle and value.

I do not have the 12 year old car... it was given to someone that drove it another 4 years.

Current auto is 2016. I would be comparing a new car to a new car in the same brand... Tesla isn't on my list. It would be an Ioniq against an Accent. I don't spend enough time in a vehicle to make it worth more than basic transportation.

But the concept should be the same...

You inspired me to check more closely--Ioniq looks great! Really nice SUV with 300 miles of range for less than $40K after incentives. But isn't the Accent an econobox? Nothing wrong with that, but not really a direct comparison. The Hyundai website shows a number of EVs with direct comparisons to internal combustion that look really attractive. You might check out the electric Kona SUV--it appears to match the gas price, even before $7,500+ in tax rebates, and available this month in Mass. (but maybe there's fine print or a misleading website?)

Though I agree with msw on the math and this forum not being representative of America, I agree with you and Think on the general point that EVs need to be for everybody. Hyundai is on the right track

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

It’s a stupid argument.

When folks are comparing Tesla’s they are usually comparing nicer cars like Audi’s, BMW’s, MB and if it’s worth switching to a Tesla. Or even a nice Hybrid. Not a 12 year old tin can. If driving cars isn’t important at all you could make a monetary argument it’s cheaper to go with 12 year tin can vs any car let a alone a Tesla.

It’s John turning yet another discussion into a stupid one.

Yes, it’s cheaper to drive old cheap cars.

You could argue it’s cheaper to not own a car and just use Uber too.

Why did he buy a new convertible sports car if he hates driving?
I don’t buy any of his BS, I think he’s bored and just trying to stir things up.

What challenge?
You making up more stuff in your head of how others are thinking again?

John's point above was that the "math doesn't work for [him]," which I think is an essential point both personally and as a culture.

I've pointed out a few times that your financial assumptions aren't reality for the sizable majority of America.

Yes, Teslas/EVs have great tech, may be fun to drive, and may, if all things come together, be financially and ecologically efficient.

But for $96k, the price of your Tesla SUV, I could buy two 4Runners and 20+ years of service.

Or three Subarus and 30+ years of service...

It's no different than the guy who chose two rolls of toilet paper yesterday rather than the multi-pack that saves 25% and comes more easily packaged: to buy into solar or EVs usually requires money people don't have.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

John's point above was that the "math doesn't work for [him]," which I think is an essential point both personally and as a culture.

I've pointed out a few times that your financial assumptions aren't reality for the sizable majority of America.

Yes, Teslas/EVs have great tech, may be fun to drive, and may, if all things come together, be financially and ecologically efficient.

But for $96k, the price of your Tesla SUV, I could buy two 4Runners and 20+ years of service.

Or three Subarus and 30+ years of service...

It's no different than the guy who chose two rolls of toilet paper yesterday rather than the multi-pack that saves 25% and comes more easily packaged: to buy into solar or EVs usually requires money people don't have.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I’ve repeatedly said you are not gonna save money driving a Model S or X.
But if these depreciations hold (which they probably won’t) I could end up spending as much as you did on 2 forerunners. Depreciation is about 2% over the last 2.5 years. Maybe a 4Runner is too.

Just as you can’t compare a civic to and say an Audi. You can’t compare a 4Runner to a Model X. I could make the same argument it’s dumb to buy a 4Runner when you can get a Subaru.

Someone on the Tesla Forum that lives in an RV park and owns a golf cart was trying to sort out charging. He does like 10 miles a week (mostly in his golf cart). No a Tesla is a complete loss. He will lose 10 miles a week with the car just sitting there.

We are in a thread about gas prices. If you don’t drive much, who cares. We should be discussing similar cars and the trade off of EV vs Gas. Not cheap cars vs expensive ones. Or your needs of driving a lot or a little. Not really interested in discussing that. But John likes to twist topics.

That said , you can’t compare a Tesla to anything else.

It’s a blazing hot day, we drive by this place that looks good to eat. But we have the dogs with us. No problem put it doggy mode.

I’m in the garage working on my app, or waiting for my wife at the hospital. Turn the car on and watch a movie. No fumes nothing. It’s so nice having a car that does not spew poisonous gases.

It’s late, I’m tired, I made a bad judgement call and I’m driving. The car swerves to avoid a pedestrian.

I could go on and on. It’s a one year waiting list to get a Model X. And it’s not due to parts shortages.

Stuck in traffic, turn on Biohazard mode.

People camp in them. By putting them in Camp mode.

Acceleration is the last reason I get Tesla an I leave in Chill mode 99% of the time.

What are the chances of a Roll over in 4Runner vs a Model X?
That alone is worth it to me and you can’t put a price on it.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

I’ve repeatedly said you are not gonna save money driving a Model S or X.

There are two points I and others are making here:

1. That, on a thread about fuel costs, the answer isn't simply electric vehicles as there's much more to the equation than just fuel.

2. The "offhand" way people talk about buying EVs, solar, and other high-initial-cost systems that just isn't realistic for much/most of America.

I'd love a vehicle I don't have to put fuel in, but it would need to be overall cost effective, have a low initial buy-in, and be able to do what I need it to do beyond just driving.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

There are two points I and others are making here:

1. That, on a thread about fuel costs, the answer isn't simply electric vehicles as there's much more to the equation than just fuel.

2. The "offhand" way people talk about buying EVs, solar, and other high-initial-cost systems that just isn't realistic for much/most of America.

I'd love a vehicle I don't have to put fuel in, but it would need to be overall cost effective, have a low initial buy-in, and be able to do what I need it to do beyond just driving.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Agreed.

Keep in mind, that this forum isn’t average America

Many here have two homes (one on the lake).
Many have expensive boats.
Many have a home.
Many have multiple expensive cars.

So why do we keep bringing up folks that can’t afford Solar?

I think many are misinformed about Solar, incentives and EV’s.

And as you said there are other perks going with EV besides fuel.

One other thing I’d like to mention that is on topic.

Conserving:

Once I got Solar, I had them add a consumption meter as well.
That was a good move, albeit a bit over priced.

Once you could visually see what you produced and consumed it became a game.

What’s using all the power?

After digging around I found a lot of waste.
My high end active speakers were using 20 watts each on standby.

Do the math 9 speakers * 20 watts * 24 hrs * 365 days = 1.57 mega watts/year
That’s 20% of my entire Solar Production !!
I put a smart remote in that now powers them down when not used.

Also found a heater that runs 24/7 in my brand new “high efficiency” AC system.
It was like 80 watts. Now I flip the breaker off in Winter. I need to make sure I wait a few days after I turn breaker on before I run A/C.

That savings right there was enough to cover all my EV charging.

I found many more with diminishing returns. But I probably cut my electricity use in half.

Conservation on EV:

Don’t precondition. So many people think they save fuel because the car will run full regen in winter if they preheat the battery. It will cost more to heat the battery than regen will save.

Some say switch to scheduled charging in the morning. That wastes fuel too. Car will heat the battery before it charges. You are better off charging when you get home with a warm battery.

Don’t use auto precondition when navigating to supercharger. It will save time charging. But it will net cost you. I don’t care because supercharging is free. But it’s still a waste of fuel to save time.

Get an attached insulated garage. That’s yet another requirement for EV I’d recommend in snow country. Not required, but really really nice to have. Battery does not get as cold and you don’t need to use fuel to melt Ice and snow.

All cars:

Make sure your tire pressure is up. I tended to run a few pounds above door tag on my ICE cars. Especially in winter. I always did long drives at night so my tires never get that hot (and pressure to high). This can save a LOT on fuel. I don’t do that on EV’s. Why? because Elon already knows that trick and they run the tires on the high side. Tires still lasted great.

Keep your distance with cars in front of you so you can coast to slower your speed rather than use brakes. Every time you hit the brakes you’re wasting fuel. It’s also safer and more relaxing. One thing I don’t like about Auto Pilot is it follows to close.

You don’t need to warm up ICE, just suck it up, get in and go. Doable with a garage.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Agreed.

Keep in mind, that this forum isn’t average America

Many here have two homes (one on the lake).
Many have expensive boats.
Many have a home.
Many have multiple expensive cars.

So why do we keep bringing up folks that can’t afford Solar?

I don't know the statistics, but I know enough people behind the scenes that are not as well off as you might assume and, even if they have second homes, toys, etc., they may do so much less expensively.

So, I bring up initial investment costs because having that amount of available money just isn't as common as it once was...especially if one wants to enjoy those cars, toys, etc....which in turn limits how quickly green options become mainstream...

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[Juiced06GTO]

People clearly do not have a lot of savings - this is just transactional account data, not retirement accounts. The average American is not paying up front to add solar to their house, or buying $96k Tesla's. Those that are doing that are taking on debt to make it happen.

Average savings by age (per 2019 Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finances) - the article I pulled this from - https://www.firstrepublic.com/articl...ricans-savings

Younger than 35
Median - $3,240 Mean - $11,250
35 to 44
Median - $4,710 Mean - $27,910
45 to 54
Median - $5,620 Mean - $48,200
55 to 64
Median - $6,400 Mean - $55,320
65 to 74
Median - $8,000 Mean - $57,670
75 and older
Median - $9,300 Mean - $60,410

[John Mercier]

I think the costs will come down and be comparable over time.
Solar will fill whatever space it can in the diversified supply of electricity... but I really see it jumping when green hydrogen becomes the norm. Amory was on cars when Elon was just learning to use the big boy potty... and even back then he was strong on hydrogen; just the technology was more blue hydrogen being looked at.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I don't know the statistics, but I know enough people behind the scenes that are not as well off as you might assume and, even if they have second homes, toys, etc., they may do so much less expensively.

So, I bring up initial investment costs because having that amount of available money just isn't as common as it once was...especially if one wants to enjoy those cars, toys, etc....which in turn limits how quickly green options become mainstream...

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Stop assuming you need to be rich to do Solar.
All your doing is convincing folks it’s out of reach.

You DO NOT need all cash up front. But that will give the best ROI.

Some lease deals go something like this. They lock you in at a lower electric rate. They upgrade your service for free. All repairs are free for 20 years. If system does not produce (broken or snow covered) they pay your electric bill. You pay nothing out of pocket. And system is yours free and clear after 20 years. Even folks that do have the cash go that route because they rather invest that cash.

Enough about being too poor for Solar. Too naive maybe.

It’s a no brainer.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Stop assuming you need to be rich to do Solar.
All your doing is convincing folks it’s out of reach.

You DO NOT need all cash up front. But that will give the best ROI.

Some lease deals go something like this. They lock you in at a lower electric rate. They upgrade your service for free. All repairs are free for 20 years. If system does not produce (broken or snow covered) they pay your electric bill. You pay nothing out of pocket. And system is yours free and clear after 20 years. Even folks that do have the cash go that route because they rather invest that cash.

Enough about being too poor for Solar. Too naive maybe.

It’s a no brainer.

The resident solar guy himself said that leasing is not an awesome idea (#80), and I've had friends who got porked by roof issues that "weren't covered" and resale issues when putting their houses on the market. Add to that a much different ROI calculation, and blech.

I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

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[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

The resident solar guy himself said that leasing is not an awesome idea (#80), and I've had friends who got porked by roof issues that "weren't covered" and resale issues when putting their houses on the market. Add to that a much different ROI calculation, and blech.

I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

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I have friends that leased and it worked out great for them

Your right about tricky selling your home with roof leased out. There are ways of dealing with that. Oh many companies will put in a new roof too.

All methods save money. Like anything, you need to stay on top of things and not sit back and let the “professionals” run the show. That goes for purchased or leased.

You can also do a loan. That’s right poor people have bad credit.
With a loan. You own it. You get tax break. You get all incentives like SRECs in MA.

With a loan. What you used to pay in electricity you pay towards the loan. So initially you save nothing. But as time goes on it pays back. Especially if electric rates go up.

https://www.consumerreports.org/ener...-solar-panels/

Great, you talked yourself out of it. I don’t know anyone that is unhappy with going with Solar by any means.

Is anyone here unhappy they got Solar?

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

The resident solar guy himself said that leasing is not an awesome idea (#80), and I've had friends who got porked by roof issues that "weren't covered" and resale issues when putting their houses on the market. Add to that a much different ROI calculation, and blech.

I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I was skeptical about solar but it made sense for me. I ended up with no money down, a state and federal refund (I was able to spread the federal over two years), 10 years of SREC credits that provide a quarterly check, a below market rate loan, and net metering. The loan program I qualified for wrote off 25% of the cost of the install the day the system went live (but I could still deduct 100% of the cost on my taxes). Since having it installed my electric bill is nothing for 9 months of the year and the three months I do pay are lower than what they were before the panels. The monthly electric bill coupled with the SREC checks offsets the loan. I would have liked to make the system bigger as I had the space, but if I had, I would not have been eligible for the 25% write off and favorable loan rate.

I found out about this program (I am in MA) through a friend who is a green energy consultant. Once I connected with an installer who also knew about the program, things went smoothly.

I don't believe this specific program is still around, but do agree that there are affordable ways to go solar for many people (but of course not everyone).

[John Mercier]

I believe that MA did a lot more toward solar - renewable in general - than NH did.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I don't know your roof or your financial situation (although you have found cash for awesome stuff such as a camp and a fleet of watercraft), so I can't tell you that solar would be a good investment for you...

But for many people with a sunny roof, the annual financial return on solar is >15%, and home equity loans are available for much less than that. In this context, a solar roof is the best investment that a "normal" person can make--much better than the expected returns on stocks, real estate, etc. That's not to say that there have not been years better than 15% for stocks and real estate, only that the average annual return is much less and the risk is much higher on these other things. The right comparison is not against a boat or other fun toy, it is against retirement savings, such as a 401K.

(Please do not tell me I am out of touch to suggest you bet your retirement. I am not suggesting that, only that you might think of this as part of a portfolio of investments. It's a high yield bond with relatively low risk.)

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I don't know your roof or your financial situation (although you have found cash for awesome stuff such as a camp and a fleet of watercraft), so I can't tell you that solar would be a good investment for you...

But for many people with a sunny roof, the annual financial return on solar is >15%, and home equity loans are available for much less than that. In this context, a solar roof is the best investment that a "normal" person can make--much better than the expected returns on stocks, real estate, etc. That's not to say that there have not been years better than 15% for stocks and real estate, only that the average annual return is much less and the risk is much higher on these other things. The right comparison is not against a boat or other fun toy, it is against retirement savings, such as a 401K.

(Please do not tell me I am out of touch to suggest you bet your retirement. I am not suggesting that, only that you might think of this as part of a portfolio of investments. It's a high yield bond with relatively low risk.)

My problem is lack of house commitment.
I buy one, make careful upgrades that are likely to yield a return (or at least not a loss), find another home, and do it again.

My longest ownership ever was 4 years. I’ve owned 4 homes since 2014.

It’s always “the one” until it isn’t.

Because of that, it would make no sense to install solar under any circumstances, unless I was stone cold settled on staying for 20 years. Of course, as soon as I make that commitment, I’ll see another house the next day

I’m not complaining: It’s been financially favorable, but we always joke about never going too far with upgrades.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I don't know your roof or your financial situation (although you have found cash for awesome stuff such as a camp and a fleet of watercraft), so I can't tell you that solar would be a good investment for you...

But for many people with a sunny roof, the annual financial return on solar is >15%, and home equity loans are available for much less than that. In this context, a solar roof is the best investment that a "normal" person can make--much better than the expected returns on stocks, real estate, etc. That's not to say that there have not been years better than 15% for stocks and real estate, only that the average annual return is much less and the risk is much higher on these other things. The right comparison is not against a boat or other fun toy, it is against retirement savings, such as a 401K.

(Please do not tell me I am out of touch to suggest you bet your retirement. I am not suggesting that, only that you might think of this as part of a portfolio of investments. It's a high yield bond with relatively low risk.)

It's an equation with many variables, among which is the cost now vs. the cost over 30 years.

Other variables—for us—were roof age, roof orientation and tree cover questions, town tax codes (my town was, until recently, increasing home values with solar so there was an increase in taxes), initial investment costs, etc.

It's been a couple years, but when we'd looked we had heard too many horror stories about leasing and the other variables just didn't add up.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[John Mercier]

Afford and ''waste'' are two different items.

People always tell me that saving more, when I will never need it, is stupid... but it is the way that I and others work.
We don't see depreciating assets as value, except for the monetary equation.

Solar, at least what I have been told, is based on location and system sizing for the most part. My location allows for some... but the biggest effect would be if I used more electricity, or if I wanted to replace domestic water heating.

The domestic water heating will be more of my focus as I redesign my raised beds.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

If you hate driving so much why discuss the merits of one vs the other.

Personally you couldn’t pay me to own a convertible in New England. About all they are good for is a July 4th parade. Or around the corner for fish and chips. Will you take it Sun Fried, Wind blown, Ears Blown or Freezing? I feel like I’m relaxing in the living room with the stereo going and the car driving itself.

Monetary efficiency.

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great

If you took these as “cheap shots”, that’s your own perception. I said it is exactly why SOME people buy them. I don’t recall specifically saying or implying that was why YOU bought one.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by LakeDad

If you took these as “cheap shots”, that’s your own perception. I said it is exactly why SOME people buy them. I don’t recall specifically saying or implying that was why YOU bought one.

Actually, you said MOST people.