Farm Island decision upheld

[Randy Owen]

Dear XCR-700,

Be thankful that the Owen family is going to pick up where the Winchester's left off. Be thankfuld Camp Belknap was not given the opportunity to destroy the island as they destroyed what the loon preservation committee named and northern Winnipesukees best loon nesting site. Or when Seth Kassels specified to cut a lagoon full of human waste releasing thousands of gallons of human waste towards and into the lake. Now for example when he wants to move a Camp Belknap “nuisance”, as he calls it, from the inner part of the camp to the “periphery” of camp to annoy low density residential people where they are subject to the “nuisance”.

Please understand I met with Seth Kassels. I told him our dreams and wishes so we could act in harmony. I spoke with him with complete transparency. He took what said and lied about every bit of it. Fabricated stuff that would never happen. Straight up he’s a pathological liar. Even all the town records are riddled with lies of dates and ownership. Pull the files. They are full of LIES!!!!

Now back to the matter at hand. THIS IS ABOUT THE TOWN AND CAMP BELKNAP NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW. The merits of my fight and this one will prevail but this is just about breaking or not breaking the law.

[XCR-700]

I have ZERO personal interest in this matter, I'm just an observer to the extreme drama surrounding such a small parcel of land.

Its truly disappointing to the world come to this.

We seem to have no common sense and no balance, just drama, endless drama and opportunists everywhere who are looking to take advantage of some situation to up their status.

I point no fingers at any party, these are general observations.

This is all just all so unfortunate and disheartening to see.

[Randy Owen]

XCR-700

This is not a small piece of land but hundreds of acres and several separate parcels of land NOT grandfathered and with no Zoning exception heard with approval for Commercial use. This is about density with this camp reaching way beyond what a normal development would require. This is about pollution. This is about exploitation of conservation land. This is about complete disregard for the Low Density Zoning and the TAX PAYING neighbors while the camp tells lie after lie and spends tens of thousands of dollars of the taxpayers money while Camp Belknap PAYS ZERO IT TAXES.

[Randy Owen]

CAMP BELKNAP - AIR RIFLE RANGE OVERVIEW
04.24.20
OVERVIEW
YMCA Camp Belknap is developing a portion of West Camp to enhance Staff Housing and
Programming. As part of this development, Camp Belknap is relocating and redefining their
Riflery program. The current Riflery program utilizes .22 Rifles and is conducted in the core of
camp, where the noise can be a nuisance to nearby programming and sleeping quarters. Though
all proper protocols are met for safety, the colocation of this program to others is a constant
safety consideration. The new Riflery program will be sited at the periphery of camp, and will
transition to the use of Air Rifles, in lieu of .22s.

please answer this: if it is a nuisance for them why would it not be a nuisance for us?

[FlyingScot]

Hi XCR--the article raises a number of good points, as we hashed out months ago.

But this is a separate issue from whether the camp should be able to move their rifle range so the noise burden is shifted to their neighbors.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Hi XCR--the article raises a number of good points, as we hashed out months ago.

But this is a separate issue from whether the camp should be able to move their rifle range so the noise burden is shifted to their neighbors.

On an island that small I dont see how an air rifle range could have any significant impact on anyone.

You folks must have super human hearing.

I'd be lucky if I could hear them shooting at me with air rifles if I were setting targets at 50 yards, let alone in a house any distance further than that.

That must be the quietest island on Winnipesaukee for this to be a problem.

Safety and other matters may certainly be of greater concern, and truthfully I would assume 300 campers would make so much racket that you might wish you could get them to focus on shooting just to quiet them down ;-)

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Randy Owen

CAMP BELKNAP - AIR RIFLE RANGE OVERVIEW
04.24.20
OVERVIEW
YMCA Camp Belknap is developing a portion of West Camp to enhance Staff Housing and
Programming. As part of this development, Camp Belknap is relocating and redefining their
Riflery program. The current Riflery program utilizes .22 Rifles and is conducted in the core of
camp, where the noise can be a nuisance to nearby programming and sleeping quarters. Though
all proper protocols are met for safety, the colocation of this program to others is a constant
safety consideration. The new Riflery program will be sited at the periphery of camp, and will
transition to the use of Air Rifles, in lieu of .22s.

please answer this: if it is a nuisance for them why would it not be a nuisance for us?

If this is NOT completely obvious I guess somebody needs to explain this to you.

First off do you have any idea the difference in noise produced by a .22LR round going off versus a pellet air gun? I won't even quantify that pellet gun as either a .177 or .22 caliber as it doesn't matter the caliber or size\speed of the projectile. The sound difference is substantial in that a .22LR has a very distinct crack to it when it goes off. Pellet gun because there is no propellent explosion so they are by nature significantly quieter. Not quite but almost as quiet as a .22LR with a silencer. Standing 20-30 feet away from a pellet gun you're likely to not hear it go off above the natural ambient noise of being outside compared to a .22LR which can be heard clearly from quite a distance.

Now the current range has no sound protection around it so any sound that is created has nothing to absorb it. Thus it would be as described a nuisance. The new range according to the meeting minutes will be surrounded by sound proofing and be safer with a more adequate backstop - so it stands to reason that the combination of converting to air rifles and having them used in an area where the noise is confined via noise barriers will be HIGHLY effective in all but eliminating any noise generated by the shooting range.

The use of noise barriers is nothing new, in fact many gun ranges today create berms around the perimeter of firing ranges to muffle sound pollution and quite effectively I might add.

So end of the day, you're argument is foolish. If you have a legit bone to pick with either the town or camp that's fine, but this particular item can be so easily picked apart that you loose any credibility trying to suggest this is going to make things worse when in fact it will greatly improve the reduction of ambient noise generated by gun fire on the property.

I'm not just saying this I have both a high powered .177 air rifle and a .22LR rifle.

[Randy Owen]

Dear Maxum,

I beg you to read this entire tread. This is at best partially about the noise of the guns. The noise is from massive groups of kids. The Camp has hundreds of acres. There is no reason they need to be on top of us. Though guns are not our wish this is about Camp Belknap flagrantly and deliberately breaking the law. They were put on notice through the court and continued. They asked for a hearing, got a hearing saying NO and still continue to try and break the law. The town too is breaking the law. Like it or not there are laws that we live by. This thread is only to make Camp Belknap accountable to the law. Nothing else.



IN THE THREAD Now back to the matter at hand. THIS IS ABOUT THE TOWN AND CAMP BELKNAP NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW. The merits of my fight and this one will prevail but this is just about breaking or not breaking the law.

IN THE THREAD Seth Kassels stated that all 300 kids could be there not me, and we know they absolutely way over book this number. Yet if SETH dramatized this just to aggravate me and he's off 50 by percent or even 75 percent there is absolutely staging and kids lined up. So do you think even 25 percent of Seth's state kids (which is 75 kids) is reasonable next to your low density zoned house?? Hell even 30?????

IN THE THREAD THE ZONING IS LOW DENSITY RESIDENTIAL just put your own family home in this situation please and thank you

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Randy Owen

Dear Maxum,

I beg you to read this entire tread. This is at best partially about the noise of the guns. The noise is from massive groups of kids. The Camp has hundreds of acres. There is no reason they need to be on top of us. Though guns are not our wish this is about Camp Belknap flagrantly and deliberately breaking the law. They were put on notice through the court and continued. They asked for a hearing, got a hearing saying NO and still continue to try and break the law. The town too is breaking the law. Like it or not there are laws that we live by. This thread is only to make Camp Belknap accountable to the law. Nothing else.



IN THE THREAD Now back to the matter at hand. THIS IS ABOUT THE TOWN AND CAMP BELKNAP NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW. The merits of my fight and this one will prevail but this is just about breaking or not breaking the law.

IN THE THREAD Seth Kassels stated that all 300 kids could be there not me, and we know they absolutely way over book this number. Yet if SETH dramatized this just to aggravate me and he's off 50 by percent or even 75 percent there is absolutely staging and kids lined up. So do you think even 25 percent of Seth's state kids (which is 75 kids) is reasonable next to your low density zoned house?? Hell even 30?????

IN THE THREAD THE ZONING IS LOW DENSITY RESIDENTIAL just put your own family home in this situation please and thank you

How many "hundreds of acres" does the camp have?

If they have that much land, is there no way to work with them to relocate the range to a mutually agreed location,.

And if they have "hundreds of acres" why is 300 or even more kids a problem. One kid per acre can only make so much noise.

This becomes more confusing with each post. I'm almost sorry I read it at all, and rapidly becoming sorry I posted anything as it seems way too dramatized to get sucked into,,,

I must be missing something more compelling about all this.

[Randy Owen]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

How many "hundreds of acres" does the camp have?

If they have that much land, is there no way to work with them to relocate the range to a mutually agreed location,. EXACTLY!!!!! THEY HAVE A FEW GRANDFATHERED LOTS. IF THEY WERE ON THEM THIS WOULD BE OKAY TO MOVE BUT NOT EXPAND. THEY NOW ARE OFF THE GRANFATHERED LOTS AND NEXT TO OUR BIGGEST ASSETS AND DISTROYING OUR VALUES AND NEST EGG

And if they have "hundreds of acres" why is 300 or even more kids a problem. One kid per acre can only make so much noise.

This becomes more confusing with each post. I'm almost sorry I read it at all, and rapidly becoming sorry I posted anything as it seems way too dramatized to get sucked into,,,

I must be missing something more compelling about all this.

If they have that much land, is there no way to work with them to relocate the range to a mutually agreed location,. EXACTLY!!!!! THEY HAVE A FEW GRANDFATHERED LOTS. IF THEY WERE ON THEM THIS WOULD BE OKAY TO MOVE BUT NOT EXPAND. THEY NOW ARE OFF THE GRANFATHERED LOTS AND NEXT TO OUR BIGGEST ASSETS AND DISTROYING OUR VALUES AND NEST EGG

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Randy Owen

If they have that much land, is there no way to work with them to relocate the range to a mutually agreed location,. EXACTLY!!!!! THEY HAVE A FEW GRANDFATHERED LOTS. IF THEY WERE ON THEM THIS WOULD BE OKAY TO MOVE BUT NOT EXPAND. THEY NOW ARE OFF THE GRANFATHERED LOTS AND NEXT TO OUR BIGGEST ASSETS AND DISTROYING OUR VALUES AND NEST EGG

Well again too much drama,

If they are violating laws and standards thats one matter.

And your worrying about future value of a "nest egg" you just bought is a totally different matter.

Too many issues at work here to cleanly sort out, too many competing interests.

they should be held accountable to adhere to laws and standards, but not prevented from reasonable uses of their land.

And you or anyone should not be buying "nest eggs" hoping to control whats around you to increase your value.

This all smacks of too many bad actors to ever fully resolve.

I think I should probably stop reading this thread.

Hope you both find a middle ground and peaceful resolution.

ATB

[Randy Owen]

XCR-700

This plan moving the range thousands of feet to an area we never hear the riffles or massive amounts of screaming kids. It is not on island but very near the water where noise travels. The move put the rifle range on conservation land that they some how just took out of conservation. apart and aside this is a zoned low density residential AND a separate lot and again that has never been recognized as commercial and again was in conservation. If ever a residential lot is to be used commercially it is only with special exception with a town hearing. No hearing has been heard. No one has had the opportunity to voice their concerns in a formal zoning hearing. The law requires the zoning board to confirm there is no adverse effects.

I assume you are a land owner. Seth Kassels, the director of the camp, stated that all 300 kids could be there not me, and we know they absolutely way over book this number. Yet if SETH dramatized this just to aggravate me and he's off 50 by percent or even 75 percent there is absolutely staging and kids lined up. So do you think even 25 percent of Seth's state kids (which is 75 kids) is reasonable next to your low density zoned house?? Hell even 30?????

So I beg you to consider your own home and investment. You are located with low density residential all around you. A commercial entity whom has the land in conservation just up and takes it out of conservation and then builds a firing range proposing hundred of kids screaming and yelling 8 am till 8 pm. I ask you, how would you react?

Thank you, Randy Owen

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Randy Owen

XCR-700

This plan moving the range thousands of feet to an area we never hear the riffles or massive amounts of screaming kids. It is not on island but very near the water where noise travels. The move put the rifle range on conservation land that they some how just took out of conservation. apart and aside this is a zoned low density residential AND a separate lot and again that has never been recognized as commercial and again was in conservation. If ever a residential lot is to be used commercially it is only with special exception with a town hearing. No hearing has been heard. No one has had the opportunity to voice their concerns in a formal zoning hearing. The law requires the zoning board to confirm there is no adverse effects.

I assume you are a land owner. Seth Kassels, the director of the camp, stated that all 300 kids could be there not me, and we know they absolutely way over book this number. Yet if SETH dramatized this just to aggravate me and he's off 50 by percent or even 75 percent there is absolutely staging and kids lined up. So do you think even 25 percent of Seth's state kids (which is 75 kids) is reasonable next to your low density zoned house?? Hell even 30?????

So I beg you to consider your own home and investment. You are located with low density residential all around you. A commercial entity whom has the land in conservation just up and takes it out of conservation and then builds a firing range proposing hundred of kids screaming and yelling 8 am till 8 pm. I ask you, how would you react?

Thank you, Randy Owen

Lots of good and interesting points, but from what I read, I appears that the camp and range have been there a long time. If thats the case, then it should probably remain. If thats not the case and its new or proposed then we have a different matter.

Its like the family that moves in next to an airport and then says not only do we not want you to allow jets to land here, we also want you to rein in your operation. Hard to jump on that band wagon. Camps near water with lots of kids are a Winnipesaukee tradition and across the country. If you dont want to be near one, dont by that land. You have a choice.

Again, if they were not there and first, thats a different matter, but thats not what I seem to be reading???

Either way, best of luck to you, it is just way more drama than I would deal with, I would be looking for another property if I were that troubled about my neighbors. Life is just way too short for all the stress I am seeing in this matter. I'm stressed just reading about it.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Randy Owen

Dear Maxum,

I beg you to read this entire tread. This is at best partially about the noise of the guns. The noise is from massive groups of kids. The Camp has hundreds of acres. There is no reason they need to be on top of us. Though guns are not our wish this is about Camp Belknap flagrantly and deliberately breaking the law. They were put on notice through the court and continued. They asked for a hearing, got a hearing saying NO and still continue to try and break the law. The town too is breaking the law. Like it or not there are laws that we live by. This thread is only to make Camp Belknap accountable to the law. Nothing else.



IN THE THREAD Now back to the matter at hand. THIS IS ABOUT THE TOWN AND CAMP BELKNAP NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW. The merits of my fight and this one will prevail but this is just about breaking or not breaking the law.

IN THE THREAD Seth Kassels stated that all 300 kids could be there not me, and we know they absolutely way over book this number. Yet if SETH dramatized this just to aggravate me and he's off 50 by percent or even 75 percent there is absolutely staging and kids lined up. So do you think even 25 percent of Seth's state kids (which is 75 kids) is reasonable next to your low density zoned house?? Hell even 30?????

IN THE THREAD THE ZONING IS LOW DENSITY RESIDENTIAL just put your own family home in this situation please and thank you

Dear Mr. Owen

I actually have read the whole thread.

Did you not notice that I have a place on an island, much like yours with not one but TWO YMCA camps near by? I'm betting that they house way more than 300 kids each at any time during the summer on less property. So I believe that I have some level of understanding of what it is like to have a summer camp near by. Also how much noise they generate. I hear lots of kids screaming and having a great time. They used to shoot up there I don't think they do anymore but either way I don't mind the sound of gun fire. I have no problems whatsoever with the kids camps operation because quite frankly for the kids attending, and the older ones who work there it is an experience of a lifetime. I can't imagine taking that away from any of them.

Far as your repeated assertions of law breaking, that is up to the courts to decide, he said, she said, you throw out a lot of assertions and opinions but fact is what matters in a court of law. What your opinion or interpretation of "the law" and how it applied, followed or adhered to is just that your opinion. Others may come to a different conclusion. That is for a judge to decide and I have all the confidence that is indeed what will happen here.

As far as my opinion goes what I see going on here is that you sir have a problem with the camp. Why I don't know or care but thus far I've seen nothing of substance being brought to light. The camp owns a total of 288.132 acres scattered across multiple properties and two islands. It seems perfectly reasonable that a average density of approximately 1 kid per acre is not unreasonable assuming a total attendance of 300. I'm quite sure when you occupy your half of Farm Island the person to acre density is far greater so should you also be held to the same standard? How about all the added noise and waves from the boat traffic you create personally? Shall we go on and hold YOU to the same standards?

I am not here to defend Camp Belknap, but I also find it hard to crucify them based on what appear to be rather outlandish claims which have not been substantiated by anyone of consequence. If that were the case there would be something far more engaging to discuss.

[Randy Owen]

sab1

WASTE PHOTOS TO FOLLOW

please share this reporting data you speak of. we have done research and not found it. there is a des file tho with limited information
thank you

[Pricestavern]

Originally Posted by Randy Owen

sab1

WASTE PHOTOS TO FOLLOW

please share this reporting data you speak of. we have done research and not found it. there is a des file tho with limited information
thank you

I see absolutely nothing in that letter that mentions a spill of sewage into the lake. Nothing. The author speaks of a horrendous smell for the past 55 years and that it has been abated. No spill is mentioned.

More to the point - what in the world does this have to do with Farm Island? What in the world does the relocation of the air rifle range have to do with Farm Island? This thread is akin to nailing jello to a tree or herding cats - it's all over the place and oozing around any point or counterpoint being made.

[Randy Owen]

Originally Posted by Pricestavern

I see absolutely nothing in that letter that mentions a spill of sewage into the lake. Nothing. The author speaks of a horrendous smell for the past 55 years and that it has been abated. No spill is mentioned.

More to the point - what in the world does this have to do with Farm Island? What in the world does the relocation of the air rifle range have to do with Farm Island? This thread is akin to nailing jello to a tree or herding cats - it's all over the place and oozing around any point or counterpoint being made.

the smell is the continued release as needed. this went on for years. the "spill" was a one time event that happed in the winter.

but, "More to the point". selfishly i swim in that water and so do my kids. that firing range is very close to the water and noise travels over water. unselfishly i support my good friend don mcwhirter. he's really screwed as are others in his area. unselfishly i support you if you swim in and enjoy the lake. unselfishly i support every taxpayer in tuftonboro so they know how much tax payer money is spent on this camp selfish needs. the pay nothing and consume tons of town benefits. they have hundreds of acres of land and thousands of feet of frontage. they are for profit and have millions in revenues and donations. so i ask you to consider your own tax bill and where your money is going

and at the risk of being redundant please remember this: now i beg you to understand my less then perfect domainer. while doing so please ask yourself the following: when was the last time you let one hundred thousand dollars of your children's money slip through you hands on another's selfish quest? or as we call it a sethfish quest

[Pricestavern]

As I said, Jell-O.

I'm out. Randy I hope you find some inner peace. Good luck to all involved. I wish you all the best, but I'm done with this thread.

More importantly - when is Ice Out?

[jogator1]

I agree that this thread has become convoluted and misleading. As I have read through all this information I keep questioning why Mr. Owens didn't do his due diligence before purchasing this land. It is pretty obvious Camp Belknap has been located and firmly established on Farm Island for many years prior to Mr. Owens purchasing his property and initiating his legal pursuits. As you use your resources probing for "opportunities" to benefit your cause, you must realize the Lakes Region is governed pretty tightly by state and local agencies. Why put yourself through all of this stress decreasing your health and well-being? Can't you find a way to enjoy the beauty and serenity of the lake coexisting with your camp neighbor?

[Randy Owen]

Originally Posted by jogator1

I agree that this thread has become convoluted and misleading. As I have read through all this information I keep questioning why Mr. Owens didn't do his due diligence before purchasing this land. It is pretty obvious Camp Belknap has been located and firmly established on Farm Island for many years prior to Mr. Owens purchasing his property and initiating his legal pursuits. As you use your resources probing for "opportunities" to benefit your cause, you must realize the Lakes Region is governed pretty tightly by state and local agencies. Why put yourself through all of this stress decreasing your health and well-being? Can't you find a way to enjoy the beauty and serenity of the lake coexisting with your camp neighbor?

i had no idea i was up for this fight. but i had spent 50k on the project and couldn't turn back. i was however warned by the winchester's. they fought this camp for years. i frankly was mislead with the Christian affiliation. frankly though i won my battle. my mission now is only to help my neighbors and protect the lake. i demand only that camp belknap be accountable to the des and follow local and town laws.
sorry for the confusion but the issue is far reaching. remember this good things don't come easy. i am working for a good thing and for you as well. please help me protect the lake.

[SAB1]

There was no spillage into the lake. Those black pipes are less than 100yds from my property. No pumping of affluent out of the lagoons onto the land or lake. At the time those chambers were put in the State was involved as the system was failing. There was a two year ongoing project to completely redo that septic system . And just to be clear, those to lagoons or ponds contained 100% grey water no solids.

I have no affiliation with the Camp or Farm Island or axe to grind. Just hate seeing misconstrued facts all over this thread.

[Randy Owen]

Originally Posted by SAB1

There was no spillage into the lake. Those black pipes are less than 100yds from my property. No pumping of affluent out of the lagoons onto the land or lake. At the time those chambers were put in the State was involved as the system was failing. There was a two year ongoing project to completely redo that septic system . And just to be clear, those to lagoons or ponds contained 100% grey water no solids.

I have no affiliation with the Camp or Farm Island or axe to grind. Just hate seeing misconstrued facts all over this thread.

i welcome corrective information but this is inconsistent. what supports the spillage incident is clearly this ice line. please explain your thoughts here. i see no way any natural soil absorption would show a ice line feet above where the sewage level was only hours before. similar to a lake level change no marks like this occur without a breach. again i welcome information of support of any substance. thank you

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by SAB1

There was no spillage into the lake. Those black pipes are less than 100yds from my property. No pumping of affluent out of the lagoons onto the land or lake. At the time those chambers were put in the State was involved as the system was failing. There was a two year ongoing project to completely redo that septic system . And just to be clear, those to lagoons or ponds contained 100% grey water no solids.

I have no affiliation with the Camp or Farm Island or axe to grind. Just hate seeing misconstrued facts all over this thread.

Thank you. I was confident there was more to this story. The only thing spewing is Randy....

[Randy Owen]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Thank you. I was confident there was more to this story. The only thing spewing is Randy....

i ask you then to explain these two things. why did mr. nelson write this letter and where did all this waist water or grey water go? if you are content then swim where you will. if you care then learn the truth

[granitebox]

Did the camp operate during the summer of 2020?

[Randy Owen]

Originally Posted by granitebox

Did the camp operate during the summer of 2020?

this happened several years ago. there should be a des report that we are trying to access

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Randy Owen

i ask you then to explain these two things. why did mr. nelson write this letter and where did all this waist water or grey water go? if you are content then swim where you will. if you care then learn the truth

You obviously have an axe to grind with them, and that's fine. My point above is that SAB1 states that they live 100 yards from the site, and as a witness not involved in your mess he states that your claims are untrue/unfounded. I have no idea who Mr. Nelson is, but feel that I should be on a first name basis with him by now based on the number of times you have posted his same letter on this thread!

Taken from the post in question:

"There was no spillage into the lake. Those black pipes are less than 100yds from my property. No pumping of affluent out of the lagoons onto the land or lake. At the time those chambers were put in the State was involved as the system was failing. There was a two year ongoing project to completely redo that septic system . And just to be clear, those to lagoons or ponds contained 100% grey water no solids.

I have no affiliation with the Camp or Farm Island or axe to grind. Just hate seeing misconstrued facts all over this thread."

[Randy Owen]

Originally Posted by codeman671

You obviously have an axe to grind with them, and that's fine. My point above is that SAB1 states that they live 100 yards from the site, and as a witness not involved in your mess he states that your claims are untrue/unfounded. I have no idea who Mr. Nelson is, but feel that I should be on a first name basis with him by now based on the number of times you have posted his same letter on this thread!

Taken from the post in question:

"There was no spillage into the lake. Those black pipes are less than 100yds from my property. No pumping of affluent out of the lagoons onto the land or lake. At the time those chambers were put in the State was involved as the system was failing. There was a two year ongoing project to completely redo that septic system . And just to be clear, those to lagoons or ponds contained 100% grey water no solids.

I have no affiliation with the Camp or Farm Island or axe to grind. Just hate seeing misconstrued facts all over this thread."

excellent deductions! and i am happy to answer and yes there is way more to the story

as sab1 states he is within 100 yards of this sewage pond. he is actually also really close to the nuisance as the camp itself details in its overview. both the camp and sab1 want to rid themselves of the nuisance. the camps letter is attached to support this. in this letter the range/nuisance is move from their programing and sleeping area. this too is to sab1 and actually mr. nelsons advantage.

mr. nelsons actually provides two letter. also provided here is the second letter to support and demonstrate the ultimate of hypocrisy. in his first letter he does identify all he hates about the camp exploiting the neighborhood, the land and wild life. at this time he has no idea what the camp is proposing as his first letter details. in the second letter he has learned that he is loosing the nuisance and actually comes back and complements the camp. clearly his posture has zero regard for don mcwhirter the west camp abutters. to be clear mr. nelson and sab1 are loosing the nuisance and don and the people on farm and chase island are gaining the nuisance.

we were extremely disappointed with mr. nelson and others in that neighborhood. they simple abandoned don and their grudge with the camp as the nuisance was shall we say "good riddance" and put the burden on other neighbors. matter of fact is that sab1 concern is if don's legal actions prevail sab1 and mr. nelson keep the nuisance.

for the record i made dozens of phone calls, emails and text to the people in winnie shores. i begged them to align and ask camp belknap not to continue to screw the winnie shores neighbors and not to start to screwing the west camp area with the damn nuisance.

the camp has hundred of acres of land. there is tons of open land to locate this firing range that wouldn't SCREW ANYONE! a win for winnie shores, a win for west camp neighbors, a win for farm island and a win for chase island. the crying shame of it all is that now that don's appeal is likely to prevail winnie shore keeps the damn firing range nuisance.

you've found my passion i again ask you to understand my less then perfect domainer. while doing so please ask yourself the following: when was the last time you let one hundred thousand dollars of your children's money slip through you hands on another's selfish quest?

[Randy Owen]

Originally Posted by randy owen

excellent deductions! And i am happy to answer and yes there is way more to the story

as sab1 states he is within 100 yards of this sewage pond. He is actually also really close to the nuisance as the camp itself details in its overview. Both the camp and sab1 want to rid themselves of the nuisance. The camps letter is attached to support this. In this letter the range/nuisance is move from their programing and sleeping area. This too is to sab1 and actually mr. Nelsons advantage.

Mr. Nelsons actually provides two letter. Also provided here is the second letter to support and demonstrate the ultimate of hypocrisy. In his first letter he does identify all he hates about the camp exploiting the neighborhood, the land and wild life. At this time he has no idea what the camp is proposing as his first letter details. In the second letter he has learned that he is loosing the nuisance and actually comes back and complements the camp. Clearly his posture has zero regard for don mcwhirter the west camp abutters. To be clear mr. Nelson and sab1 are loosing the nuisance and don and the people on farm and chase island are gaining the nuisance.

We were extremely disappointed with mr. Nelson and others in that neighborhood. They simple abandoned don and their grudge with the camp as the nuisance was shall we say "good riddance" and put the burden on other neighbors. Matter of fact is that sab1 concern is if don's legal actions prevail sab1 and mr. Nelson keep the nuisance.

For the record i made dozens of phone calls, emails and text to the people in winnie shores. I begged them to align and ask camp belknap not to continue to screw the winnie shores neighbors and not to start to screwing the west camp area with the damn nuisance.

The camp has hundred of acres of land. There is tons of open land to locate this firing range that wouldn't screw anyone! A win for winnie shores, a win for west camp neighbors, a win for farm island and a win for chase island. The crying shame of it all is that now that don's appeal is likely to prevail winnie shore keeps the damn firing range nuisance.

you've found my passion i again ask you to understand my less then perfect domainer. While doing so please ask yourself the following: When was the last time you let one hundred thousand dollars of your children's money slip through you hands on another's selfish quest?

i forgot the overveiw drafted by no other than camp belknap

[SAB1]

Originally Posted by Randy Owen

excellent deductions! and i am happy to answer and yes there is way more to the story

as sab1 states he is within 100 yards of this sewage pond. he is actually also really close to the nuisance as the camp itself details in its overview. both the camp and sab1 want to rid themselves of the nuisance. the camps letter is attached to support this. in this letter the range/nuisance is move from their programing and sleeping area. this too is to sab1 and actually mr. nelsons advantage.

mr. nelsons actually provides two letter. also provided here is the second letter to support and demonstrate the ultimate of hypocrisy. in his first letter he does identify all he hates about the camp exploiting the neighborhood, the land and wild life. at this time he has no idea what the camp is proposing as his first letter details. in the second letter he has learned that he is loosing the nuisance and actually comes back and complements the camp. clearly his posture has zero regard for don mcwhirter the west camp abutters. to be clear mr. nelson and sab1 are loosing the nuisance and don and the people on farm and chase island are gaining the nuisance.

we were extremely disappointed with mr. nelson and others in that neighborhood. they simple abandoned don and their grudge with the camp as the nuisance was shall we say "good riddance" and put the burden on other neighbors. matter of fact is that sab1 concern is if don's legal actions prevail sab1 and mr. nelson keep the nuisance.

for the record i made dozens of phone calls, emails and text to the people in winnie shores. i begged them to align and ask camp belknap not to continue to screw the winnie shores neighbors and not to start to screwing the west camp area with the damn nuisance.

the camp has hundred of acres of land. there is tons of open land to locate this firing range that wouldn't SCREW ANYONE! a win for winnie shores, a win for west camp neighbors, a win for farm island and a win for chase island. the crying shame of it all is that now that don's appeal is likely to prevail winnie shore keeps the damn firing range nuisance.

you've found my passion i again ask you to understand my less then perfect domainer. while doing so please ask yourself the following: when was the last time you let one hundred thousand dollars of your children's money slip through you hands on another's selfish quest?

My input is not within any letter. Please do not reference me with any nuisance letter. My name is not on it or in it. If I have an issue with the camp I direct it directly with Seth. My only issue has been the loud “gangster rap” music on the basket ball pavilion at times. Aside from that I bought my place 20 years ago and directly abutt the camp. Not really going to make waves because I made the choice when I bought. As long as what they do is legal I’m fine. I look at it like I said previously. Great to see the kids outside, swimming, sailing, canoeing, sports etc rather than sitting on their butts in front of a tv playing video games all day or hanging around the town park smokin dope then breaking into homes stealing TVs to sell to buy more dope.

The grey water system has been fixed. That’s all good there. That system was decades old and predated current management. It operated up until its replacement the same way it did for it years. The odor was not really a common problem. It surfaced on long very dry, hot humid weather end of July into August when water levels in the lagoon receded. The land that was exposed by the receded water had marine growth exposed to the air and combined with stagnant water stunk much like a marsh at low tide did. The primary source of the grey water was the laundry mat on 109 and shower facilities at camp.

[Randy Owen]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Thank you. I was confident there was more to this story. The only thing spewing is Randy....

if the state was involved there would a state construction approval number. what is it?

[granitebox]

This thread has devolved into nonsense with statements lacking facts being thrown about. The same letters/allegations have been made 10x over and that doesn't make them credible. There is far more to story than we are being told but I'm going to leave this to the proper authorities to sort out (if even necessary) - I'm done, out

[mhtranger]

All this post is about is how Randy likes to hear his own voice. This thread has become ridiculous. Get over yourself Randy.

[nhd]

These might clarify some, without examining all the permits issued it appears DES is involved and a septic treatment system is approved. DES one stop activity log shows correspondence starting 2001 until 2020

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

If this is NOT completely obvious I guess somebody needs to explain this to you.

First off do you have any idea the difference in noise produced by a .22LR round going off versus a pellet air gun? I won't even quantify that pellet gun as either a .177 or .22 caliber as it doesn't matter the caliber or size\speed of the projectile. The sound difference is substantial in that a .22LR has a very distinct crack to it when it goes off. Pellet gun because there is no propellent explosion so they are by nature significantly quieter. Not quite but almost as quiet as a .22LR with a silencer. Standing 20-30 feet away from a pellet gun you're likely to not hear it go off above the natural ambient noise of being outside compared to a .22LR which can be heard clearly from quite a distance.

Now the current range has no sound protection around it so any sound that is created has nothing to absorb it. Thus it would be as described a nuisance. The new range according to the meeting minutes will be surrounded by sound proofing and be safer with a more adequate backstop - so it stands to reason that the combination of converting to air rifles and having them used in an area where the noise is confined via noise barriers will be HIGHLY effective in all but eliminating any noise generated by the shooting range.

The use of noise barriers is nothing new, in fact many gun ranges today create berms around the perimeter of firing ranges to muffle sound pollution and quite effectively I might add.

So end of the day, you're argument is foolish. If you have a legit bone to pick with either the town or camp that's fine, but this particular item can be so easily picked apart that you loose any credibility trying to suggest this is going to make things worse when in fact it will greatly improve the reduction of ambient noise generated by gun fire on the property.

I'm not just saying this I have both a high powered .177 air rifle and a .22LR rifle.

I think most of this is what I was thinking and touching on in my last reply.

Other concerns aside noise from a well designed air rifle range should not be something to worry about or spend any significant amount of dollars on to have a lawyer fight. I would rather invest that money in a better boat or dock or anything than worry about this.

Again, maybe I'm missing some critical element???

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Randy Owen

CAMP BELKNAP - AIR RIFLE RANGE OVERVIEW
04.24.20
OVERVIEW
YMCA Camp Belknap is developing a portion of West Camp to enhance Staff Housing and
Programming. As part of this development, Camp Belknap is relocating and redefining their
Riflery program. The current Riflery program utilizes .22 Rifles and is conducted in the core of
camp, where the noise can be a nuisance to nearby programming and sleeping quarters. Though
all proper protocols are met for safety, the colocation of this program to others is a constant
safety consideration. The new Riflery program will be sited at the periphery of camp, and will
transition to the use of Air Rifles, in lieu of .22s.

please answer this: if it is a nuisance for them why would it not be a nuisance for us?

Good Luck, hope you all resolve this soon and can find a way to live a low drama low stress life you should have if you live on the lake.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Randy Owen

XCR-700

This is not a small piece of land but hundreds of acres and several separate parcels of land NOT grandfathered and with no Zoning exception heard with approval for Commercial use. This is about density with this camp reaching way beyond what a normal development would require. This is about pollution. This is about exploitation of conservation land. This is about complete disregard for the Low Density Zoning and the TAX PAYING neighbors while the camp tells lie after lie and spends tens of thousands of dollars of the taxpayers money while Camp Belknap PAYS ZERO IT TAXES.

Sorry, I understand to you its a lot of land, but to me its a small island on Winnnipesaukee dwarfed by so many others. And this debate seems out of proportion for what I am seeing.

But thats just an observation, I have no personal gain or loss in the outcome, just disappointment that these matters become so decisive to the community.