Maximum season length with a 3 season cottage?

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

That's cool to take advantage of the Ice.

Best way to insulate your floor is closed cell blown in foam. No Vapor barrier issues and it will fill every nook.

I've considered this approach however.... my concern is that this stuff may attract ants or worse mice that may find it attractive as well. With the bottom of the building completely open to the outside this concerns me.

Not that mice don't find fiberglass insulation attractive either!

[rick35]

It only takes a small crack and then you have mice in the house. I foamed around the pipes and haven't seen a mouse since (knock on wood). Creating a barrier under the house for the insulation to sit on that is mouse proof would be complicated. And that's if you have room to work. I absolutely hate working under the house.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

I've considered this approach however.... my concern is that this stuff may attract ants or worse mice that may find it attractive as well. With the bottom of the building completely open to the outside this concerns me.

Not that mice don't find fiberglass insulation attractive either!

Max,

What I did at my place for floor insulation... I used small cans of spray foam around all pipe and other small floor cutouts first. I then installed fiberglass insulation. Covered all insulation with 1/4" luan. I used urethane caulking over all luan seams then screwed strapping over all the seams and sealant to ensure nothing could get through.

Its been under there for 12 years now and we get no mice. bugs or ants. Floor stays nice and warm in winter as well.

Dan

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Max,

What I did at my place for floor insulation... I used small cans of spray foam around all pipe and other small floor cutouts first. I then installed fiberglass insulation. Covered all insulation with 1/4" luan. I used urethane caulking over all luan seams then screwed strapping over all the seams and sealant to ensure nothing could get through.

Its been under there for 12 years now and we get no mice. bugs or ants. Floor stays nice and warm in winter as well.

Dan

Dan

I had a similar thought in mind, when I re-did the house I also re-did the mess of an excuse for plumbing which I consolidated to a single that travels under the floor joists east to west. My thought was to use fiberglass bats and cover it with zip board taping the seams. Same thing I did for the exterior wall and roof sheathing. Thing I love about that stuff is it has that coating on the outside that essentially is better than house wrap already integrated. The goal being that if I have to gain access I can with it being screwed into place. Since I have all my plumbing consolidated I can box around that and insulate that as well.

My neighbor just had a new place built and they employed a similar method to insulate the floor as well which I was curious to see how they would do it.

I'll figure it out and start to experiment with it. I do like what you did. Since the luan is so thin have you had any problems with it warping on you? I was thinking the 3/8" green zip board, although heavy would not suffer from this.
I've had that stuff warp so bad it popped through screw heads! Guess using a pan washer would help with that under every screw head.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Dan

I had a similar thought in mind, when I re-did the house I also re-did the mess of an excuse for plumbing which I consolidated to a single that travels under the floor joists east to west. My thought was to use fiberglass bats and cover it with zip board taping the seams. Same thing I did for the exterior wall and roof sheathing. Thing I love about that stuff is it has that coating on the outside that essentially is better than house wrap already integrated. The goal being that if I have to gain access I can with it being screwed into place. Since I have all my plumbing consolidated I can box around that and insulate that as well.

My neighbor just had a new place built and they employed a similar method to insulate the floor as well which I was curious to see how they would do it.

I'll figure it out and start to experiment with it. I do like what you did. Since the luan is so thin have you had any problems with it warping on you? I was thinking the 3/8" green zip board, although heavy would not suffer from this.
I've had that stuff warp so bad it popped through screw heads! Guess using a pan washer would help with that under every screw head.

Max;

I have not had any warping issues with the luan sheeting. The zip board and tape sounds like a great idea also!

Insulating and sealing the floor will make a huge difference in your home comfort not only with AC and heating but with any bug or mice issues. It basically becomes a non issue.

Good luck!

Dan

[mswlogo]

So how practical is it to run a 3 Season year round?

It has lake water with a pump house probably 20 feet from waters edge and water line that probably goes 50 feet to the house and very shallow.

There is no plumbing on the 2nd floor and 1 bath back to back with a kitchen.

The hot water heater is like an 80 gallon electric. And it's literally in a trap door in the kitchen. And pretty deep down, surrounded by dirt.

Partial foundation around maybe 3/4 way around.

It has Electric heat and double pane windows.

No insulation under the house. Not sure what's in the walls. Assuming nothing but it might have something since they bothered to put in double pane windows. Looks like modern sheet rock too in good shape. So it's not like boards you can see through to the outside type of thing.

Would this cost a fortune to prevent from freezing? It's very small too. We can close off 2nd floor which will add a buffer of insulation.

What would it need? Insulate just an area under the kitchen and hot water heater?

Hardest part is the water from the lake. I heard you can put heaters in the pipe but it's expensive.

I wanted to install a nice water filter system, then I thought of all the work to drain it. Then I thought about putting in tankless hot water on LP, but that might be more vulnerable than conventional hot water tank.

I have a Well guy coming along with Septic site planner but that might not happen until next year. Also an LP tank is getting installed. Will switch electric appliances to LP and add a gas (simulated wood) stove.

[fatlazyless]

Do you know about Pyrotenax all season water lines which have something like a 125' x 1 1/4" black cpvc, water line with an internal heat wire, a thermostat and a control dial to dial in the on/off temp at 34(+-) degrees.

Unlike the standard cpvc 1 1/4" water line that cracks when the water inside freezes, the Pyrotenax uses a high pressure cpvc that will expand with the internal ice should the power go out, and then contract back to original shape after power returns and it thaws out.

Cost: maybe one thousand dollars and can be a do-it-yourself project because it gets installed just a inches underground using hand tools like a shovel and a hoe for digging, as opposed to a John Deere back hoe.

125' x 1 1/4" uses 1888 watts of power, and runs on 220-volts ac with a foot valve at the bottom of the line, under the ice, down on the floor of the lake, tied to a cement block.

Is made in Ontario, Canada, and can last for 25-years, plus.
.............

The Rinnai direct vent heaters, made in Japan, powered with propane or natural gas, and controlled with 110-volt electricity are very reliable and make warm, hot air heat, very quick with nothing that can freeze up plus it feels and smells like clean, real heat. When the electricity comes back on, it will recycle and restart, making hot air heat in the middle of the night, or anytime, after an electric power outage.

The Rinnai un-vented heaters make hot air heat that is tainted with the yucky smell of propane, and is definately best to stay far away from their un-vented heaters even though it is made by Rinnai.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Do you know about Pyrotenax all season water lines which have something like a 125' x 1 1/4" black cpvc, water line with an internal heat wire, a thermostat and a control dial to dial in the on/off temp at 34(+-) degrees.

Unlike the standard cpvc 1 1/4" water line that cracks when the water inside freezes, the Pyrotenax uses a high pressure cpvc that will expand with the internal ice should the power go out, and then contract back to original shape after power returns and it thaws out.

Cost: maybe one thousand dollars and can be a do-it-yourself project because it gets installed just a inches underground using hand tools like a shovel and a hoe for digging, as opposed to a John Deere back hoe.

125' x 1 1/4" uses 1888 watts of power, and runs on 220-volts ac with a foot valve at the bottom of the line, under the ice, down on the floor of the lake, tied to a cement block.

Is made in Ontario, Canada, and can last for 25-years, plus.


.............

The Rinnai direct vent heaters, made in Japan, powered with propane or natural gas, and controlled with 110-volt electricity are very reliable and make warm, hot air heat, very quick with nothing that can freeze up plus it feels and smells like clean, real heat. When the electricity comes back on, it will recycle and restart, making hot air heat in the middle of the night, or anytime, after an electric power outage.

The Rinnai un-vented heaters make hot air heat that is tainted with the yucky smell of propane, and is definately best to stay far away from their un-vented heaters even though it is made by Rinnai.

Awesome data thanks !!!

In the event I do get a Well in and some proper winterizing, I'm trying to not waste to much $$$. But I might need that heated line any way for the well because there is potentially a lot of ledge between the pump and the house and the Well might go roughly where the pump house is any way.

So can you cut that tubing any where? Would you have to "jumper it" around the pump? Can the pump itself be heated in a similar fashion?

What is the feasibility of the pump being moved up into the house?
House is probably 75 ft back and 20-30 ft above water level.
Can pumps routinely handle that?
I'm sure years ago they had good reason to build a pump house (5 ft above water level) and push up. The existing pump is very tired.

If I can get really nice Lake water setup, I might pass on the Well.

The only reason I'm considering the gas (wood stove emulated) thing is that is something we can easily reuse if we decide to rebuild.
Not sure I want to commit to a new heating system for this house, just yet.

Can that Rinnai also take on domestic hot water duties as well?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Would this cost a fortune to prevent from freezing? It's very small too. We can close off 2nd floor which will add a buffer of insulation.

It would cost a fortune, and you'll still be cold and unhappy. Better to rent somebody else's 4 season place

[camp guy]

Following the statement of FlyingScot, I would add that if a house wasn't originally built to be a 4-season house that the cost of upgrading to a 4-season house is huge, Oh, yes, you will hear stories about people who wrapped their plumbing pipes in the Sunday New York Times, buried their water pipe 6" in sand, and kept the shades drawn upstairs and had a wonderful winter. Don't believe them, it just doesn't work that way. If you are unsure about the insulation in the walls you can always cut a hole and check. The interesting thing about frozen pipes is that if we have cold weather and a pipe freezes, it may be some time before it thaws and begins to leak, and, if the pipe is 'hidden', the damage will be very costly.

I guess I am a bit of a wet blanket on this topic, but your question needs experts to provide you answers - experts in each trade, plumbing upgrades, insulation installation, heating methods, electrical harness suitability, etc, etc, etc.

Good luck.