So many closed threads

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Perhaps it’s the lawyer in him that keeps him arguing.

SMART lawyers know that the best way to win a case is by finding the TRUTH that is at the heart of the case. Not the client's truth, not the lawyer's truth, but the actual truth.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

SMART lawyers know that the best way to win a case is by finding the TRUTH that is at the heart of the case. Not the client's truth, not the lawyer's truth, but the actual truth.

I must disagree, and defend my pen pal Major. Smart lawyers on the right side of the argument need to find the actual truth. But if a smart lawyer is on the wrong side of an argument, he must lead with misleading data/statements, half truths, and diversions.

If you read Major closely, he has made it very clear that his primary objective is to support Donald Trump. If the President had handled COVID well, Major would be looking for the actual truth. But, unfortunately for our entire country, Major's "client" has not given him much to work with...

[gravy boat]

I guess my questions are:

When will people feel unafraid to go out into public without a mask? After the vaccine is available?

And will any vaccine(s) also kill the mutated versions of COVID-19? How can we be sure? What if COVID-19 continues to mutate and vaccines are useless, then another is developed but the mutated version mutates before the newer vaccine is available, and so on?


(Snippet from CDC website on general vaccine effectiveness:
CDC conducts studies each year to determine how well the influenza (flu) vaccine protects against flu illness. While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can vary, recent studies show that flu vaccination reduces the risk of flu illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to the flu vaccine. In general, current flu vaccines tend to work better against influenza B and influenza A(H1N1) viruses and offer lower protection against influenza A(H3N2) viruses.)

If the COVID-19 vaccine is only up to 60% effective, will those currently fearful/cautious ever truly feel safe?


Hmmmm....

GB

[Wolfe-man]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

SMART lawyers know that the best way to win a case is by finding the TRUTH that is at the heart of the case. Not the client's truth, not the lawyer's truth, but the actual truth.

Respectfully, in my experience, there is no such thing as an actual “truth” when it comes to differing opinions concerning a given set of facts. I have been a commercial litigator for 27 years and in every case I have ever been involved with, my client believed it was absolutely right and that the other side was absolutely wrong. The opposition always believes the exact same thing, even though both sides are operating with the same set of facts. I don’t want to add fuel to an argument here where neither side will convince the other of the “actual truth” of his/her opinion. Coming from a different part of the country where COVID has had a much harder impact, including the death of my 50 year old otherwise healthy and father of 3 cardiologist, I will say that it nice to be here for a break (I have been here for several weeks and spent the first 14 days in my house). Nor am I trying to make a political statement about the virus or the propriety of the governmental response, and my personal opinion wouldn’t move the needle for anyone’s analysis, anyway. I only offer my observation about the danger of thinking about this argument in terms of “absolute truths” because I believe if we continue to approach this argument (and frankly, all others) from our respective battle lines, unwilling to try to see the other side’s position and why they believe that they, too, are right, the divide that separates us currently will only continue to grow. And in case someone wants to label me left or right in response to this post, I’m a fiscal conservative pro 2nd amendment person who also chooses to wear a mask around others while I’m here - MY choice - in case it helps. I don’t care about the optics or the politics. Happy 4th to all and wave if you see me go by in the boat!

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I have just skimmed through this thread, and it’s astounding to me that one person can be as convinced of how right he is as SailinAway is! Veering from his sense of what’s “truth” should have you removed from the forum? Unbelievable!
Sailin, you need to take some deep breaths...that’s it....lighten up. Being right all the time must be terribly stressful and even painful. It’s bad for your health. Also, you can feel free to avoid reading posts by people with whom you disagree.....just don’t demand that people be removed from this forum because you disagree with them.

[Top-Water]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

I have just skimmed through this thread, and it’s astounding to me that one person can be as convinced of how right he is as SailinAway is! Veering from his sense of what’s “truth” should have you removed from the forum? Unbelievable!
Sailin, you need to take some deep breaths...that’s it....lighten up. Being right all the time must be terribly stressful and even painful. It’s bad for your health. Also, you can feel free to avoid reading posts by people with whom you disagree.....just don’t demand that people be removed from this forum because you disagree with them.

Double thanks for this post.

[Phantom]

Please Don -

Make the “noise” stop !

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

I have just skimmed through this thread, and it’s astounding to me that one person can be as convinced of how right he is as SailinAway is! Veering from his sense of what’s “truth” should have you removed from the forum? Unbelievable!
Sailin, you need to take some deep breaths...that’s it....lighten up. Being right all the time must be terribly stressful and even painful. It’s bad for your health. Also, you can feel free to avoid reading posts by people with whom you disagree.....just don’t demand that people be removed from this forum because you disagree with them.

I understand SailinAway’s frustration. To constantly have threads hijacked and closed because one person can’t stop typing his “truth” is very frustrating. And a lot of his “truth” is incorrect. He’s also very insulting to people who don’t believe his “truth,” not directly, but by using terms such as Dr. Fraud. So what does that say about those of us who believe this is serious and take Dr. Fauci’s advice seriously?

Once again, I don’t think Major’s account should be closed, but he needs to give it a rest.


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

So what does that say about those of us who believe this is serious and take Dr. Fauci’s advice seriously?

Interesting article in the Washington post: "How Fauci, 5 other health specialists deal with covid-19 risks in their everyday lives"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...c93_story.html

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

I have just skimmed through this thread, and it’s astounding to me that one person can be as convinced of how right he is as SailinAway is! Veering from his sense of what’s “truth” should have you removed from the forum? Unbelievable!
Sailin, you need to take some deep breaths...that’s it....lighten up. Being right all the time must be terribly stressful and even painful. It’s bad for your health. Also, you can feel free to avoid reading posts by people with whom you disagree.....just don’t demand that people be removed from this forum because you disagree with them.

Perhaps you'd like to do more than skim the thread. You will find that what I object to is deliberate distortions of obvious truths, also known as lying. My political views can be debated, but certain truths should not be up for debate when lives are at stake. We ARE in a pandemic and people who want to sell the lie that we are not in a pandemic and other such nonsense should be stopped.

Did you actually say "lighten up"? You do realize we're mired in the greatest crises since the founding of our country?

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Did you actually say "lighten up"? You do realize we're mired in the greatest crises since the founding of our country?

I daresay the war of 1812, the Civil War, and WWI and WWII were a bigger crisis than covid-19.

[upthesaukee]

The countdown begins: 10, 9, 8, 7...

Dave

[Top-Water]

I'll put in the number six for you. ..... 6 .........

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by Wolfe-man

Respectfully, in my experience, there is no such thing as an actual “truth” when it comes to differing opinions concerning a given set of facts. I have been a commercial litigator for 27 years and in every case I have ever been involved with, my client believed it was absolutely right and that the other side was absolutely wrong. The opposition always believes the exact same thing, even though both sides are operating with the same set of facts.

The following comment is about the practice of law, but law is a reflection of real life, not something esoteric, so the practice of law has something to teach us about life. In fact getting to the truth, not winning or losing, is the purpose of the American legal system. Even when two sides disagree about a case, there is still a truth at the heart of all legal cases. Most lawyers aren't looking for that truth. Their client tells them a story and they want to spin the client's story in a way that they think will be convincing to the judge and jury. Their goal is to win. This is a weak starting point. It's smarter to spend time looking for the truth at the heart of the case that explains the rest of the case. Person A did this, and therefore that happened. The truth is revealed by the case documents and testimony. When you have the truth you can put together a case that revolves around the truth, even if your client is not in a favorable position. On closing, judge and jury will be more convinced if the story you tell revolves around the truth at the center of the case. So yes, two different stories will be told, but there will be one truth at the center if the lawyers are acting in accordance with the purpose of the judicial system: to find the truth.

Coming back to our topic, there are truths at the heart of COVID-19 and many aspects of it are black and white. We are either in a pandemic or we aren't. Either more than 100,000 people have died of COVID-19 in this country or they have not. Either a mask can help prevent the virus from being spread to the air when someone coughs, or it can't. Either the number of infections is rising rapidly in Florida and Texas, or it isn't. These are all yes/no FACTS, not debatable ISSUES. Granted, the truth may change as new scientific knowledge is discovered, but there can be no truth without a search for that knowledge.

Then there is the interpretation of the facts and what to do with them. Knowing that infections are rising rapidly in Florida, how should individuals and authorities respond? Here's where social and political values come into the picture. It's a very grave error to allow political values to cloud the fact finding that is essential for making rational decisions in a crisis, especially when millions of lives are at stake.