WOW Trail Phase 3 Heating up...

[BroadHopper]

that moves to Laconia and complain, there are plenty of estate to move elsewhere!

Laconia was here long before SD/LB. So don't go telling Laconia what they can or can not do!

[Major]

Last time I checked, I am a resident of Laconia and have the same right as other residents to express my displeasure about City money going towards the WOW trail. Make no mistake, even if Federal and State (and private) monies are provided to construct the trail, Laconia will be obligated to pay for its maintenance.

My hope is that the WOW trail proponents take SD/LB's offer to re-route the WOW trail around the periphery of the development. Otherwise, it appears that the WOW trail will be wasting a lot of its capital in fighting the issue in court.

[Woodsy]

Why should they re-route the trail around a development that was sold to the city with the rail trail as part of the plan?

The state owns the right of way.... Not SD/LB.

Why not work with the WOW trail to pick out a nice fencing option?

Woodsy

[Major]

The incentive for the proponents of the WOW trail to work with SD/LB is to avoid costly litigation. Who is right or wrong really has little impact on how disputes are resolved. (Things like monetary resources, stomach for litigation, etc., have as much influence on litigation results.) The proponents on the WOW trail can spend a lot of their capital on litigation to prove that it has the right of way, or instead work with the residents of SD/LB to re-route the trail. We'll see what happens. At the end of the day, whether the trail is built or not won't have a lot impact on my life. I just think it's a colossal waste of money.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Major

The incentive for the proponents of the WOW trail to work with SD/LB is to avoid costly litigation. Who is right or wrong really has little impact on how disputes are resolved. (Things like monetary resources, stomach for litigation, etc., have as much influence on litigation results.) The proponents on the WOW trail can spend a lot of their capital on litigation to prove that it has the right of way, or instead work with the residents of SD/LB to re-route the trail. We'll see what happens. At the end of the day, whether the trail is built or not won't have a lot impact on my life. I just think it's a colossal waste of money.

Sounds to me that you are saying that "Might makes right". Even if the WOW trail advocates are correct in that they have the proper clearance rights to build the trail, you are hoping to hit them with enough legal entanglements (costs) to stop them. Sounds like trail opponents are willing to expend a "colossal waste of money" to get their way, even if they are not in the right.

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by Major

The incentive for the proponents of the WOW trail to work with SD/LB is to avoid costly litigation. Who is right or wrong really has little impact on how disputes are resolved. (Things like monetary resources, stomach for litigation, etc., have as much influence on litigation results.) The proponents on the WOW trail can spend a lot of their capital on litigation to prove that it has the right of way, or instead work with the residents of SD/LB to re-route the trail.

(unfortunately), that's how litigation works. It may be a colossal waste of money for the SD/LB owners, but spread across 600 units, the cost isn't that much. If the goal is to have a trail that people can enjoy, why can't the WOW trail folks consider re-routing the trail? It seems like a win-win.

What a disgusting group of "residents" at SD/LB.

If privacy was an issue, why on earth would you build/buy in a community such as SD/LB? It's not like they are building a highway around your home. It is a bike path/walking trail.

Instead of wasting money on litigation, BUILD A WALL. 30 feet high made of concrete should suffice!

[Just Sold]

A review of the plan (Plan Book 141 Page 19) shows that SD does not own the land that the RR tracks are on and that it is owned by the State. The State has owned that land longer than SD has been in existence or even a dream. The SD plan would not show a proposed rail trail as it is not part of or on their property. Good luck fighting this - I think you will be donating your money to a very smart and savy attorney who will gladly take it off your hands, as much as you wish to waste.

[Descant]

In a few years, you'll want to sell your property and the Realtor listing will brag that you are adjacent to the WOW trail.

As a separate issue if you think SD is over assessed, hire a professional to dispute the assessments. Businesses do this all the time, especially when there is no locally comparable business. There are professionals who do this on a commission basis.
You could also look at other tax rates around the state and realize that $22-23 may not be out of line for comparable cities/towns.

[ricob]

Two points.

Phase 1 was paid for (100%?) by ARRA funding. Phase 2 had a substantial amount of TIF money ($400K+) dedicated to the revitalization of downtown Laconia, so that money did not come from the tax revenues as a whole, but from a special assessment paid by downtown properties. A significant amount of the funding for the WOW trail has come from private donations. Certainly the City has agreed to maintain the trail as a linear park. I'm not sure when Major has viewed the trail, but it is used considerably, by all kinds of people.

Second point. I have recently been on the Shining Sea Trail on Cape Cod. It abuts many residential properties. I will bet dollars to doughnuts that many or most of those abutters complained that the trail was going to destroy their privacy and lead to an increase in loitering and property crime. That didn't happen, in fact, just about every single property abutting the trail has it's own pathway that the owner has cut to access it.

My prediction is that SD/LB will be have a similar experience. They will use the trail for exercise and for access to downtown Laconia and the Weirs on a dedicated pedestrian-bicycle path without having to jump into their cars, like virtually every trail of this type that has been built.

[brk-lnt]

We owned in SDS for 10 years, most other owners I spoke with about the WOW trail over the years were not opposed to the trail itself so much as the stupid/ugly chainlink fence that comes with it.

A good number of South Down properties are rentals, and it is not really like there is strict security to get in the front gate, thus most owners there are not under the impression it is some private gilded oasis that is built to keep the general public away.

I think much of the concern is that the trail won't be maintained and will end up as more of an eyesore than something that is fully utilized.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

We owned in SDS for 10 years, most other owners I spoke with about the WOW trail over the years were not opposed to the trail itself so much as the stupid/ugly chainlink fence that comes with it.



A good number of South Down properties are rentals, and it is not really like there is strict security to get in the front gate, thus most owners there are not under the impression it is some private gilded oasis that is built to keep the general public away.



I think much of the concern is that the trail won't be maintained and will end up as more of an eyesore than something that is fully utilized.

I agree. I also owned in SD/LB for 10 years. Moving to Meredith Bay. many residents really have 3 concerns 1) security/ including use of the facility by non owners 2) property values 3) the fence


My feelings are over time the values will actually increase after an initial downturn, as long as the fence is esthetically pleasing with easy access to get to the on water amenities in the community and lastly especially in season the continue to monitor the beaches and pool as they are done now the WOW Trail will end up being a tremendous asset and selling point for the community.



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[BroadHopper]

Phase I does have a chain linked fence and the reason for that was federal safety rules and regulations as the track is considered active. Phase II has a combination pleasing metal picket fence and wood railing. This is due to changes in regulation result of feedback. I urge you to take a walk on Phase II and enjoy the new fences. Phase II connect to the Belmont Trail that brings you near Mosquito Bridge. I wonderful walk.

Belmont plans will eventually connect to the Tilton trail. From there the possibility of biking/hiking to Concord or Hanover is planned.

There is preliminary planning in Meredith about building a rail trail from downtown Meredith down to the Weirs. This is really exciting!

[SAMIAM]

Another thing to consider is the effect on wild life that can no longer reach the water. Even though there is much development on that shore, there is also a lot of woodland. The area around Pickerel Cove is mostly a large wooded area.

[Major]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Another thing to consider is the effect on wild life that can no longer reach the water. Even though there is much development on that shore, there is also a lot of woodland. The area around Pickerel Cove is mostly a large wooded area.

Two environmental concerns to consider --

1. The railroad ties are treated with creosote. The City of Laconia recently had to do a cleanup near a ball field due to creosote, and it was considered a hazardous site. The creosote leaches into the soil, so any construction will likely release the creosote into the lake.

2. There is a regulation that there can’t be any construction, grading changes or landscape changes within 150’ of the lake. Everyone is held to this restriction, including the proposed WOW Trail.

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by Major

Two environmental concerns to consider --

1. The railroad ties are treated with creosote. The City of Laconia recently had to do a cleanup near a ball field due to creosote, and it was considered a hazardous site. The creosote leaches into the soil, so any construction will likely release the creosote into the lake.

2. There is a regulation that there can’t be any construction, grading changes or landscape changes within 150’ of the lake. Everyone is held to this restriction, including the proposed WOW Trail.

The simple answer is to plow over the property on "the other side of the tracks".... that is, the side away from the lake (towards SD) ....100% legal and the State of NH owns the property (Read NOT SD)!

If the State/City does now own the ROW then they should take it by Eminent Domain! It seems that would be cheaper than allowing the .5%ers to dictate what the state should do with property that WE already own.

[Major]

Outdoorsman, your solution doesn't solve the creosote issue or the 150' rule. Also, you think too highly of the residents at SD/LB. The 0.5%ers are at Grouse Point! Have you ever been in SD/LB? It's nice but let's not get carried away!

I was reminded today that although SD/LB gets a lot of press, we are not the only community against the WOW trail. Paugus Park, Breakwater, Nature’s View, Meredith Bay, and Grouse Point are all against the WOW trail.

Let's see what happens. Hopefully clearer heads will prevail.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Major

Two environmental concerns to consider --

...

2. There is a regulation that there can’t be any construction, grading changes or landscape changes within 150’ of the lake. Everyone is held to this restriction, including the proposed WOW Trail.

Are you referring to the Shoreland Protection Act (SPA)? If so, as I understand it, changes CAN be made but you have to apply for a permit and follow guidelines. I would think that adding bushes and vegetation WOULD be allowed if done right. The problem is usually with removing growth. You can also add fencing if put in with hand tools? Power tools require permits but again, you probably just need to follow proper procedures. You could probably put down a trail surface if it allowed drainage through the material. I'm not claiming to be an expert but it's not as restrictive as some might think unless you are only 50 ft from the water.

If it's not the SPA, what regulation are you referring to?

[Major]

Originally Posted by jeffk

Are you referring to the Shoreland Protection Act (SPA)? If so, as I understand it, changes CAN be made but you have to apply for a permit and follow guidelines. I would think that adding bushes and vegetation WOULD be allowed if done right. The problem is usually with removing growth. You can also add fencing if put in with hand tools? Power tools require permits but again, you probably just need to follow proper procedures. You could probably put down a trail surface if it allowed drainage through the material. I'm not claiming to be an expert but it's not as restrictive as some might think unless you are only 50 ft from the water.

If it's not the SPA, what regulation are you referring to?

Jeff, I believe it's the SPA. The track is within 50' for most of the western shore of Paugus Bay.

[Woodsy]

You are grasping at straws.... The railroad ties and their creosote have been there for a 100 years. The WOW trail will not impact the rail line so that's a moot point. They aren't digging up and relocating the rail line.

As far as construction within 150' of the lake... it happens all the time. WOW will require DES to sign off on the project... if they haven't given preliminary approval already.

The harsh reality is the State/people of NH own the railroad right of way AND the shoreline. SD/LB was proposed to the city with the possibility of a rail trail. The nuclear option would not be good for SD/LB or any of the other communities... it would be way better for all if an acceptable compromise on fencing & access could be achieved.

Woodsy

[laketrout]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Phase I does have a chain linked fence and the reason for that was federal safety rules and regulations as the track is considered active. Phase II has a combination pleasing metal picket fence and wood railing. This is due to changes in regulation result of feedback. I urge you to take a walk on Phase II and enjoy the new fences. Phase II connect to the Belmont Trail that brings you near Mosquito Bridge. I wonderful walk.

Belmont plans will eventually connect to the Tilton trail. From there the possibility of biking/hiking to Concord or Hanover is planned.

There is preliminary planning in Meredith about building a rail trail from downtown Meredith down to the Weirs. This is really exciting!

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________
There would be a chain link or high fence as Southdown/Long Bay have docks 56 in Southdown/Marina and 1 beach. Long Bay has a Marina/docks and 2 beaches so fencing would go up to keep the liability down. Liability insurance would be huge from what I heard plus the fact that the private communities do not feel like hosting folks just strolling into their lawns. Were not talking 10 families and 40 people more then 2500 +/- people reside there during the year.

On a side note the trail is going over or near Pickering cove north of Long Bay/SDS shores near the railroad tracks and the right of way is only 5 feet wide and stretches for 1/4 of a mile. The causeway near/over the water would have to be built up at a huge cost in that community/area.

Laconia is in a precocious position as a huge amount of the residential tax valuation/base comes from LB and SDS with 660 houses and condos.

I am long time Laconia resident and happen to live in that area. The trail could be devised to make people content but will probably be tied up in the courts for years.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by laketrout

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________
There would be a chain link or high fence as Southdown/Long Bay have docks 56 in Southdown/Marina and 1 beach. Long Bay has a Marina/docks and 2 beaches so fencing would go up to keep the liability down. Liability insurance would be huge from what I heard plus the fact that the private communities do not feel like hosting folks just strolling into their lawns. Were not talking 10 families and 40 people more then 2500 +/- people reside there during the year.

On a side note the trail is going over or near Pickering cove north of Long Bay/SDS shores near the railroad tracks and the right of way is only 5 feet wide and stretches for 1/4 of a mile. The causeway near/over the water would have to be built up at a huge cost in that community/area.

Laconia is in a precocious position as a huge amount of the residential tax valuation/base comes from LB and SDS with 660 houses and condos.

I am long time Laconia resident and happen to live in that area. The trail could be devised to make people content but will probably be tied up in the courts for years.

Laketrout...

The fence design is a negotiable thing.... it does not have to be an ugly chain link fence. On some parts of the existing WOW trail its a pretty nice post & beam design. Certainly that design or something similar should be acceptable.

There is no liability for Southdown as the property in question is owned by the State of NH. Also there is a provision in NH State law that absolves owners of liability when their land is used recreationally by the public. It is this law that keeps snowmobile & ATV trails open to the public.

Laconia is not in a precarious position tax-wise with regards to SD/LB... any possible devaluation of the SD/LB tax base would take years to show up. There are 600+ houses/condos and there are only 12-14 for sale with an avg price of approx. $436K. Not a huge turnover. Traditionally Rail Trails have added value to a community not devalued a community.

IMHO, I think SD/LB is in the precarious position... the nuclear option of NH not renewing their waterfront lease would be most detrimental to all involved.


Woodsy

[PDC4LIFE]

Interesting Article: Property values and crime are to be considered.

http://citizenreviewonline.org/2010/...ost_crime.html

[laketrout]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Laketrout...

The fence design is a negotiable thing.... it does not have to be an ugly chain link fence. On some parts of the existing WOW trail its a pretty nice post & beam design. Certainly that design or something similar should be acceptable.

There is no liability for Southdown as the property in question is owned by the State of NH. Also there is a provision in NH State law that absolves owners of liability when their land is used recreationally by the public. It is this law that keeps snowmobile & ATV trails open to the public.

Laconia is not in a precarious position tax-wise with regards to SD/LB... any possible devaluation of the SD/LB tax base would take years to show up. There are 600+ houses/condos and there are only 12-14 for sale with an avg price of approx. $436K. Not a huge turnover. Traditionally Rail Trails have added value to a community not devalued a community.

IMHO, I think SD/LB is in the precarious position... the nuclear option of NH not renewing their waterfront lease would be most detrimental to all involved.


Woodsy

To each his own. Real Estate sale transactions are slow currently as there is little inventory. Woodsy you quote an average sales price of $436k that's an average and nothing to sneeze at, the average home in Laconia sells for less then 1/2 that. Average Sales of SDS/LB homes equal about 10% of total units per year, & with 660 homes, that percentage fluctuates. In any given year the # of SDS homes sold might be 65 units or 40 units it depends on many economic factors.

With Miles of private land and boat docks and marinas on eithe side of the proposed trail, there is room for Liability and other issues. When 660 residences in your city speak up its time to listen.

[Woodsy]

That didn't take long....... Not sure how they think a lawsuit will somehow force the state's hand. It would set very dangerous legal precedent.

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx...n-file-lawsuit

Woodsy

[laketrout]

Originally Posted by Just Sold

A review of the plan (Plan Book 141 Page 19) shows that SD does not own the land that the RR tracks are on and that it is owned by the State. The State has owned that land longer than SD has been in existence or even a dream. The SD plan would not show a proposed rail trail as it is not part of or on their property. Good luck fighting this - I think you will be donating your money to a very smart and savy attorney who will gladly take it off your hands, as much as you wish to waste.

Just sold, there is always room for negotiation. Many SDS/LB are pissed off they will boycott businesses, restaurants and bars in the area, and that accounts for a lot of food and adult beverages. Me personally I wont boycott.