Hot water issue - furnace ?

[bigdog]

Latest estimate to replace my boiler with coil with same type, came in around $5500, materials and labor. HVAC company gave me the estimate but did not break-out line items for boiler cost and labor hrs. have since asked for that info.

This includes all new burner setup, piping valves, etc, and disposal of old boiler. They added extra 5 yrs to warranty and 2 yrs of annual cleanings to sweeten the deal. HVAC contractor is a HUGE dealer out of Concord, with lot's of experience and a great reputation.

Labor per hours is pretty much standard $75-100 hr per man.
Boiler costs, they tend to pad, and build in fluff !

I have a oil burner guy in Mass, who can do the job probably for less, but would require him to, come to property here and do the job same day. I would also have to purchase the boiler myself and have delivered to property.
In the end I may only save $500-700 +/-. Not sure it's worth the trouble ?

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by bigdog

Latest estimate to replace my boiler with coil with same type, came in around $5500, materials and labor. HVAC company gave me the estimate but did not break-out line items for boiler cost and labor hrs. have since asked for that info.

This includes all new burner setup, piping valves, etc, and disposal of old boiler. They added extra 5 yrs to warranty and 2 yrs of annual cleanings to sweeten the deal. HVAC contractor is a HUGE dealer out of Concord, with lot's of experience and a great reputation.

Labor per hours is pretty much standard $75-100 hr per man.
Boiler costs, they tend to pad, and build in fluff !

I have a oil burner guy in Mass, who can do the job probably for less, but would require him to, come to property here and do the job same day. I would also have to purchase the boiler myself and have delivered to property.
In the end I may only save $500-700 +/-. Not sure it's worth the trouble ?

How big of a boiler do you have? Mine was a 3 section. The bigger the boiler the bigger the cost.

[ITD]

Were I you I would have the coil cleaned and replace the mixing valve if the boiler is not leaking. That should cost a few hundred bucks. A lot better than $5,500. Once they flush it out I doubt you would have any sediment issues. Personally I hate coils and would never install another were I putting in a new boiler. In fact, my coil started acting up on my summer house and I put a super stor in, worth every penny in my opinion. That was about 6 years ago, old boiler is still going strong. But if money is an issue, I would have the coil cleaned and put a new mixing valve in.

I don't believe in replacing boilers until they start leaking, any increase in efficiency is small compared to the cost of replacement. I like to get every last penny out of stuff.

[bigdog]

Biggd,
My boiler is a Weil McCalin (coil type) 'contractor grade' for condo, 2 zones, about 100,000 btu's.

ITD,
To answer your question regarding removing and replacing the coil, it's sort of a crap shoot ! By that I mean if the bolts on the plate housing the coil are rusted, they could snap off, then the bolts would have to re-tapped, running up the cost. The coil costs about $450, with maybe 2-3 hours work depending on unforeseen issues during replacement, and no guaranty it won't leak at that connection after work completed. So bottom line, about $700-800, and I still have a 25 yr old boiler..... I could be throwing good money to bad on this option, a roll of the dice ! A lot of "if's" to replacing coil !

So difference between coil replacement and new boiler about $4000-4500, still a lot of money, but I'll be able to sleep at night, and know I have hot water for another 25 yrs., but I'll be dead by then !

[ITD]

Originally Posted by bigdog

Biggd,
My boiler is a Weil McCalin (coil type) 'contractor grade' for condo, 2 zones, about 100,000 btu's.

ITD,
To answer your question regarding removing and replacing the coil, it's sort of a crap shoot ! By that I mean if the bolts on the plate housing the coil are rusted, they could snap off, then the bolts would have to re-tapped, running up the cost. The coil costs about $450, with maybe 2-3 hours work depending on unforeseen issues during replacement, and no guaranty it won't leak at that connection after work completed. So bottom line, about $700-800, and I still have a 25 yr old boiler..... I could be throwing good money to bad on this option, a roll of the dice ! A lot of "if's" to replacing coil !

So difference between coil replacement and new boiler about $4000-4500, still a lot of money, but I'll be able to sleep at night, and know I have hot water for another 25 yrs., but I'll be dead by then !

Yes, I hear you on that. I suppose if money is not an issue then go for it. If money is an issue I would try cleaning the coil and probably replacing the mixing valve. No matter what you choose I hope it works out for you.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by ITD

Were I you I would have the coil cleaned and replace the mixing valve if the boiler is not leaking. That should cost a few hundred bucks. A lot better than $5,500. Once they flush it out I doubt you would have any sediment issues. Personally I hate coils and would never install another were I putting in a new boiler. In fact, my coil started acting up on my summer house and I put a super stor in, worth every penny in my opinion. That was about 6 years ago, old boiler is still going strong. But if money is an issue, I would have the coil cleaned and put a new mixing valve in.

I don't believe in replacing boilers until they start leaking, any increase in efficiency is small compared to the cost of replacement. I like to get every last penny out of stuff.

My oil consumption went way down after replacing my 30 year old boiler. I estimate a five year payback after seeing my oil bill drop this winter and this winter was much colder than the year before. And oil was more expensive this winter than the year before. Since it's a second home I sleep better not worrying about a 30 year old boiler crapping out and my place freezing up. To each his own.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Biggd

My oil consumption went way down after replacing my 30 year old boiler. I estimate a five year payback after seeing my oil bill drop this winter and this winter was much colder than the year before. And oil was more expensive this winter than the year before. Since it's a second home I sleep better not worrying about a 30 year old boiler crapping out and my place freezing up. To each his own.

So my point on the pay back. If you are at 75% efficiency now and go to 85% efficiency with a new boiler and you burn 1,000 gallons of oil a year. You will save about 100 gallons of oil per year give or take. At $1.50 per gallon you will save about $150.00 per year. For a $5,500 investment it will take you 36 years to pay back your new boiler, not sure how you get 5 years, unless my math is way off.

A new boiler can crap out too, I monitor my house for temperature in the winter.

I went through this same scenario 5 or 6 years ago, my boiler is still going strong, but it's time is coming.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by ITD

So my point on the pay back. If you are at 75% efficiency now and go to 85% efficiency with a new boiler and you burn 1,000 gallons of oil a year. You will save about 100 gallons of oil per year give or take. At $1.50 per gallon you will save about $150.00 per year. For a $5,500 investment it will take you 36 years to pay back your new boiler, not sure how you get 5 years, unless my math is way off.

A new boiler can crap out too, I monitor my house for temperature in the winter.

I went through this same scenario 5 or 6 years ago, my boiler is still going strong, but it's time is coming.

Then I guess my boiler was below 75% and my new boiler is rated 89%. I spent less than 4K on a new boiler and it was money well spent. Like I said, to each his own. I'm happy with my decision to replace it. I'm 63 so now I don't have to deal with it again in my lifetime. And I paid more than $1.50 a gallon this season past winter for oil. I also monitor my heat with a WIFI T-stat but I'm 2 hours away and don't want the hassle of driving up there at a moments notice.
Also, flushing out a heating coil almost never works and a heating contractor would never guarantee it would. 9 times out of 10 you would be throwing money away. Just like the $800 I spent on an emergency repair on my 30 year old boiler the winter before I replaced it. And changing the mixing valve will do nothing if the water coming out of the coil is not hot enough.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Then I guess my boiler was below 75% and my new boiler is rated 89%. I spent less than 4K on a new boiler and it was money well spent. Like I said, to each his own. I'm happy with my decision to replace it. I'm 63 so now I don't have to deal with it again in my lifetime. And I paid more than $1.50 a gallon this season past winter for oil. I also monitor my heat with a WIFI T-stat but I'm 2 hours away and don't want the hassle of driving up there at a moments notice.
Also, flushing out a heating coil almost never works and a heating contractor would never guarantee it would. 9 times out of 10 you would be throwing money away. Just like the $800 I spent on an emergency repair on my 30 year old boiler the winter before I replaced it. And changing the mixing valve will do nothing if the water coming out of the coil is not hot enough.

Best of luck Biggd, I hope it works out for you.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by ITD

Best of luck Biggd, I hope it works out for you.

My boiler at my residence in Ma is over 20 years old. I have had at least one issue every year for the past few years where it has stopped working on the coldest nights. I'm milking it because I plan on selling in a few years when I retire so the next guy can worry about it. No heating coil in that one, I have a external storage tank. Everyones situation is different.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Then I guess my boiler was below 75% and my new boiler is rated 89%. I spent less than 4K on a new boiler and it was money well spent. Like I said, to each his own. I'm happy with my decision to replace it. I'm 63 so now I don't have to deal with it again in my lifetime. And I paid more than $1.50 a gallon this season past winter for oil. I also monitor my heat with a WIFI T-stat but I'm 2 hours away and don't want the hassle of driving up there at a moments notice.
Also, flushing out a heating coil almost never works and a heating contractor would never guarantee it would. 9 times out of 10 you would be throwing money away. Just like the $800 I spent on an emergency repair on my 30 year old boiler the winter before I replaced it. And changing the mixing valve will do nothing if the water coming out of the coil is not hot enough.

There is no boiler with a tankless coil that will get over 55-60% efficiency or is there a boiler that will get you an 89% efficiency! I'm confused where everyone is getting these numbers from? You are right when you suggest never to get the coiled cleaned... your wasting your money. Unfortunately many heating "professionals" aren't professional they'll say and do what ever to get your money...

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by swnoel

There is no boiler with a tankless coil that will get over 55-60% efficiency or is there a boiler that will get you an 89% efficiency! I'm confused where everyone is getting these numbers from? You are right when you suggest never to get the coiled cleaned... your wasting your money. Unfortunately many heating "professionals" aren't professional they'll say and do what ever to get your money...

Well we certainly all have quite a few differences of opinion. None of us can know who on here is a trusted source or just blowing smoke so you should really seek out a trusted oil burner tech for advice. The best advice I can give is deal with heat issues in the summer because when cold weather roles around and it's an emergency situation the price goes up. When I did mine that's what I did. I bought my own boiler and my installer told me the boilers and burners to stay away from and which ones had the least amount of issues.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by swnoel

There is no boiler with a tankless coil that will get over 55-60% efficiency or is there a boiler that will get you an 89% efficiency! I'm confused where everyone is getting these numbers from? You are right when you suggest never to get the coiled cleaned... your wasting your money. Unfortunately many heating "professionals" aren't professional they'll say and do what ever to get your money...

I have a condensing boiler with on demand hot water. It has 95.5% efficiency.
Check out: https://www.energystar.gov/products/...icient/boilers

Unfortunately there are no oil burners on the list nor is there and on-demand hot water on oil.

A friend of mine replace his oil burner and electric hot water heater with propane condensing boiler with on demand. His energy bill is less from prior year even though propane is a little more expensive. It's in the efficiency.

[ITD]

There are condensing oil boilers that get over 90% AFUE.

I've had a coil cleaned and it worked out just fine for about 5 or so years, then I had it cleaned again and it was good for another 5 or so years. Money was an issue at that point in my life. Then the boiler cracked (Burnham) and I replaced it, I put in a Superstor at the same time and haven't had a problem since.

Biggd wants a new boiler, and that is great, go for it.

The payback numbers are pretty simple math, for an engineer anyway, they may not be perfect, but I suspect they are within 10% at least of being accurate. If you go from 55% to 75% then it would take about 18 years to pay back a $5,500 boiler if you burn about 1,000 gallons per year, which should be pretty close for 100,000 btu boiler and a reasonable house. Unless I screwed up my math, I've been wrong before, but please show me the correct way if I'm wrong.

As far as your issues with your boiler at home Biggd, I suggest you change your contractor. Oil burners aren't rocket science, they are actually pretty simple, especially a contractor grade boiler, as long as you clean them annually and change the parts your service guy recommends, you should not be having problems. I have two houses, the last emergency service call I had was because Fuller ran me dry on automatic delivery. I fired them that day because they would only bring me 10 gallons of oil. That was a few years ago. The guy servicing your boiler makes a big difference.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by ITD

There are condensing oil boilers that get over 90% AFUE.

I've had a coil cleaned and it worked out just fine for about 5 or so years, then I had it cleaned again and it was good for another 5 or so years. Money was an issue at that point in my life. Then the boiler cracked (Burnham) and I replaced it, I put in a Superstor at the same time and haven't had a problem since.

Biggd wants a new boiler, and that is great, go for it.

The payback numbers are pretty simple math, for an engineer anyway, they may not be perfect, but I suspect they are within 10% at least of being accurate. If you go from 55% to 75% then it would take about 18 years to pay back a $5,500 boiler if you burn about 1,000 gallons per year, which should be pretty close for 100,000 btu boiler and a reasonable house. Unless I screwed up my math, I've been wrong before, but please show me the correct way if I'm wrong.

As far as your issues with your boiler at home Biggd, I suggest you change your contractor. Oil burners aren't rocket science, they are actually pretty simple, especially a contractor grade boiler, as long as you clean them annually and change the parts your service guy recommends, you should not be having problems. I have two houses, the last emergency service call I had was because Fuller ran me dry on automatic delivery. I fired them that day because they would only bring me 10 gallons of oil. That was a few years ago. The guy servicing your boiler makes a big difference.

I'm happy with my decision, you're happy with your decision, we are all happy. I'm certainly happy with the service guy that I have now. Let's leave it at that.

[SIKSUKR]

Curious what you guys are referring to when you say to "clean" your coil. Do you mean internally or the outside of the coil if it has mineral deposits accumulated? Wondering how you clean a coil internally. My Burnham boiler is over 25 years old. I replaced the coil at least 10 years ago as it was leaking into the boiler water. No issues since.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Curious what you guys are referring to when you say to "clean" your coil. Do you mean internally or the outside of the coil if it has mineral deposits accumulated? Wondering how you clean a coil internally. My Burnham boiler is over 25 years old. I replaced the coil at least 10 years ago as it was leaking into the boiler water. No issues since.

I believe they used an acid or some type of cleaner that clears the mineral deposits inside the coil. They basically choke down like a cholesterol choked coronary artery which chokes off the flow of water and the build up prevents heat transfer too. Water treatment helps the problem tremendously, but I have never been a fan of them, the coils.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Curious what you guys are referring to when you say to "clean" your coil. Do you mean internally or the outside of the coil if it has mineral deposits accumulated? Wondering how you clean a coil internally. My Burnham boiler is over 25 years old. I replaced the coil at least 10 years ago as it was leaking into the boiler water. No issues since.

I'm in the auto repair business. We do this on car heater cores for the cheap people that don't want to repair it the right way. I always tell them there is no guarantee. You will pay me the labor to do this whether it works or not. And If it leaks after I'm done or a month from now then you will have to fix it the right way by replacing it. It's a 50/50 shot but eventually it always ends up leaking a few months down the road. If you have had it done more than once and it hasn't leaked then you are one of the lucky ones. Car heater cores use to be copper just like boiler coils. Now they are aluminum and plastic. The new ones are very cheap and pretty much throwaways. They will leak very easily when flushed.

[Biggd]

On another subject. I've had quite a few friends that have been talked into those new gas instant boilers the size of a suitcase that hang on the wall. Everyone of them have had problems with them every year. They are very efficient when they are working. One of them had to have his replaced after only 5 years. The unit was under warrantee but not the installation. This is the way the industry is going. Just like every other appliance made today, they are only made to last until the warrantee is up. You will never get 30 years out of one of these units.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Biggd

On another subject. I've had quite a few friends that have been talked into those new gas instant boilers the size of a suitcase that hang on the wall. Everyone of them have had problems with them every year. They are very efficient when they are working. One of them had to have his replaced after only 5 years. The unit was under warrantee but not the installation. This is the way the industry is going. Just like every other appliance made today, they are only made to last until the warrantee is up. You will never get 30 years out of one of these units.

I beg to differ. There are about 100 units in my HOA. All were built in the mid to late 70's. All were equipped with the latest European 'suitcase' state of the art boilers at the time. Built in Scandinavia they were extremely reliable and efficient. After 35 years, they start to wear out and parts are hard to find. Most of the problems during the 35 years are attributed to the plumbing and not the boilers.

Most if not all the replacements are condensing boilers. Any complaints in the last few years were from faulty installations, faulty zone switches, and circulators. They have nothing to do with the boiler manufacturers. They are added on by HVAC. Seems like the add ons are giving the boiler manufacturers a bad rap. In fact my HVAC guy even told me that when I had concern about the quality of the Rinnai. Talked to a number of Rinnai owners that had their unit for a decade or more have confirmed this fact.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I beg to differ. There are about 100 units in my HOA. All were built in the mid to late 70's. All were equipped with the latest European 'suitcase' state of the art boilers at the time. Built in Scandinavia they were extremely reliable and efficient. After 35 years, they start to wear out and parts are hard to find. Most of the problems during the 35 years are attributed to the plumbing and not the boilers.

Most if not all the replacements are condensing boilers. Any complaints in the last few years were from faulty installations, faulty zone switches, and circulators. They have nothing to do with the boiler manufacturers. They are added on by HVAC. Seems like the add ons are giving the boiler manufacturers a bad rap. In fact my HVAC guy even told me that when I had concern about the quality of the Rinnai. Talked to a number of Rinnai owners that had their unit for a decade or more have confirmed this fact.

From what I've seen that hasn't been the case. Many circuit board issues. None of the issues have been related to installation. Many more problems than a regular gas boiler. My best friend and my brother inlaw both had them installed in their homes and both have had problems and one had to be replaced after only 5 years. I'm not sure what brand they have, I believe they were Navien, but both are regretting their decisions to install them. Unlike oil fired boilers, regular gas fired boilers almost never need servicing. I built a new house about 10 years ago, which my son now owns. I installed a regular gas boiler with external hot water storage tank. That unit has not been touched since installation while my friends have all had multiple issues with their suitcase style units that are newer.
I see the attraction of not having a dedicated space for a boiler and hot water tank where this unit does both and just hangs on the wall out of the way. And builders love them because they don't need expensive chimneys cutting down the costs of a new house. But I wouldn't install one in my house unless I had limited space issues.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Biggd

And builders love them because they don't need expensive chimneys cutting down the costs of a new house. But I wouldn't install one in my house unless I had limited space issues.

No opinion either way here but with today's high efficiency boilers there really is no need for a chimney unless you don't want a forced draft system. Heck a lot actually have pvc for exhaust flue.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

No opinion either way here but with today's high efficiency boilers there really is no need for a chimney unless you don't want a forced draft system. Heck a lot actually have pvc for exhaust flue.

The real expensive homes still have brick or stone chimneys and real wood fireplaces. A brick or stone chimney can add another 10 to 20K to the build so unless it's a multi million dollar house you won't see many anymore. The last house I built 10 years ago a brick chimney with two flues and one fireplace cost me 12K.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Biggd

The real expensive homes still have brick or stone chimneys and real wood fireplaces. A brick or stone chimney can add another 10 to 20K to the build so unless it's a multi million dollar house you won't see many anymore. The last house I built 10 years ago a brick chimney with two flues and one fireplace cost me 12K.

Just replying to your comment that builders love them because they dont have to build expensive chimneys. They dont have too unless somebody wants one. There is no need for one on many of todays high efficiency boilers. In fact, you cant use a chinmey for exhaust draft because the flue temp is so low. You need to have a forced draft.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

No opinion either way here but with today's high efficiency boilers there really is no need for a chimney unless you don't want a forced draft system. Heck a lot actually have pvc for exhaust flue.

The only thing that can be installed legally with pvc is a gas furnace, unless it's a Lennox and it that case you could not. All boilers need to be vented with polypropylene.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by swnoel

The only thing that can be installed legally with pvc is a gas furnace, unless it's a Lennox and it that case you could not. All boilers need to be vented with polypropylene.

I didnt mean pvc specifically but plastic in general. You knew what I meant. These boilers will discharge flue temps of about 140 degrees which mean they dont need a mortar chimney.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Biggd

From what I've seen that hasn't been the case. Many circuit board issues. None of the issues have been related to installation. Many more problems than a regular gas boiler. My best friend and my brother inlaw both had them installed in their homes and both have had problems and one had to be replaced after only 5 years. I'm not sure what brand they have, I believe they were Navien, but both are regretting their decisions to install them. Unlike oil fired boilers, regular gas fired boilers almost never need servicing. I built a new house about 10 years ago, which my son now owns. I installed a regular gas boiler with external hot water storage tank. That unit has not been touched since installation while my friends have all had multiple issues with their suitcase style units that are newer.
I see the attraction of not having a dedicated space for a boiler and hot water tank where this unit does both and just hangs on the wall out of the way. And builders love them because they don't need expensive chimneys cutting down the costs of a new house. But I wouldn't install one in my house unless I had limited space issues.

OK, I see you are referring to oil burners. I am referring to gas. No issue there.

As far as builders and developers are concerned, you are absolutely right about cutting cost. You will see inefficient HVAC on all new construction unless the homeowner request otherwise. I see a lot of homes built along an existing natural gas pipeline, not being hooked up. Builders do not want to go through the hassle and inspection of gas lines, but rather put in oil. Again unless the home owner asks.

A lot of homeowners believe the latest RBC includes energy efficiency. Unfortunately it does not. Its up to the homeowners to work with the builders if they want 5 star efficiency.

I talk to one well known builder/developer who claims to be the 'Premier Builder in the Lakes Region' about why the homes he build are not efficient.
'Why pay the additional expense, if the new owner is going to sell the home eventually. After all you can't take it with you and oil is cheap!'

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

OK, I see you are referring to oil burners. I am referring to gas. No issue there.

As far as builders and developers are concerned, you are absolutely right about cutting cost. You will see inefficient HVAC on all new construction unless the homeowner request otherwise. I see a lot of homes built along an existing natural gas pipeline, not being hooked up. Builders do not want to go through the hassle and inspection of gas lines, but rather put in oil. Again unless the home owner asks.

A lot of homeowners believe the latest RBC includes energy efficiency. Unfortunately it does not. Its up to the homeowners to work with the builders if they want 5 star efficiency.

I talk to one well known builder/developer who claims to be the 'Premier Builder in the Lakes Region' about why the homes he build are not efficient.
'Why pay the additional expense, if the new owner is going to sell the home eventually. After all you can't take it with you and oil is cheap!'

No, I was referring to the on demand gas boilers that hang on the wall. I've never seen a suitcase style oil burner that hangs on a wall. Do they even have them?

[bigdog]

Originally Posted by Biggd

No, I was referring to the on demand gas boilers that hang on the wall. I've never seen a suitcase style oil burner that hangs on a wall. Do they even have them?

If they have an oil fired boiler that hangs on the wall, I WANT ONE !

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by Biggd

From what I've seen that hasn't been the case. Many circuit board issues. None of the issues have been related to installation. Many more problems than a regular gas boiler. My best friend and my brother inlaw both had them installed in their homes and both have had problems and one had to be replaced after only 5 years. I'm not sure what brand they have, I believe they were Navien, but both are regretting their decisions to install them. Unlike oil fired boilers, regular gas fired boilers almost never need servicing. I built a new house about 10 years ago, which my son now owns. I installed a regular gas boiler with external hot water storage tank. That unit has not been touched since installation while my friends have all had multiple issues with their suitcase style units that are newer.
I see the attraction of not having a dedicated space for a boiler and hot water tank where this unit does both and just hangs on the wall out of the way. And builders love them because they don't need expensive chimneys cutting down the costs of a new house. But I wouldn't install one in my house unless I had limited space issues.

You are right... I wouldn't put one in my house! That being said I service heating equipment including wall hung boilers , not only do they only have warranties for 10-12 years they MUST be serviced yearly! All gas appliances need to be serviced yearly! The 2 biggest problems with these boilers are poor installations and misapplied application. Wall hungs will not give you those high efficiencies placed on a system that requires 180* water, they need to condense to get there! One of the biggest complaints we get are from customers that say it take forever for the house to get warm or that the circulators run forever... both true with outdoor reset on those types of systems! These units were designed for radiant, cast iron, and panel heaters, all low temp applications! I've talked to many that have said that their fuel cost them more now than when they had oil! The combi units are wonderful til something happens and it will and you have neither heat or hot water while being told it will take 1 to 10 days for parts!
For those suggesting Rinaai wall hung water heaters, you need to understand that these have to be flushed yearly or you lose your warranty on the heat exchanger... unless you get someone to lie for you. These also are prone to the screen being plugged and poor water quality creating issues. Why would someone would pay over $3000 for a way to heat their water when they could get it done much cheaper and as cost effective, I'll never know and understand?