Re cap of a very sad day

[Top-Water]

From wikipedia

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] often for the troll's amusement.

Sadly he has accomplished his objective, just as some meaningful discussion was beginning to come forward with solutions to help prevent something like this from happening again.


MAXUM really has a great idea it just needs to be discussed. Something I take out of this is if the community comes up with some viable solutions that make the lake safer and educate people and reverse the trend of tragedies taking place, it might discourage Concord from overreacting and making new laws and rules that just shut the lake down from all winter activities ...... because its an easy feel good fix.

[MAXUM]

I don't see any legislation coming about that will curb use of the lake in the winter time. That serves no purpose and will put a huge damper on the area during a time of the year where most businesses really need that extra revenue from people that are attracted in the off season. I think there would be a huge uproar if it was even suggested. I would however like to see if there is any movement towards either the towns or F&G in getting themselves a little better equipped to handle these situations. Even that is useless if the time it takes to react to a call is not immediate. They can't be everywhere all the time to bail people out when they do something ill advised. So long as folks venture into the great outdoors especially in the winter time, if they are not prepared it could very easily cost them their lives. Can't lay that at the feet of the first responders those guys do the best they can with what they got and I for one am thankful they are there even if they cannot be miracle workers every time an accident occurs.

That said one forum member pointed out to me in a private conversation the potential legal ramifications Don, the site owner, could face via lawsuit based on information that would be gleaned from information posted here. It is a pretty valid concern however my thought is a simple legal discloser stating any information posted is provided as a courtesy and basically throw in the typical language saying the site and posting members are not in any way responsible for the accuracy of the data posted. Ultimately the responsibly lies with anyone that heads out on the ice. I do see a significant value in making it known that this is a good source for people to use at their own risk. Again I point out we do not know how many actually did watch the ice in thread and acted based on that which very well could have saved lives.

FLL - I know you like to stir the pot at times, seem obsessed with inexpensive solutions to everything, but honestly making the suggestions you have is beyond irresponsible. I sincerely hope nobody takes these seriously.

[webmaster]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

That said one forum member pointed out to me in a private conversation the potential legal ramifications Don, the site owner, could face via lawsuit based on information that would be gleaned from information posted here.

Thanks for your concern but the person who posts the information is responsible, not me.

Immunity for Online Publishers Under the Communications Decency Act - Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act grants interactive online services of all types, including blogs, forums, and listservs, broad immunity from tort liability so long as the information at issue is provided by a third party.

If that were not the case it would be nearly impossible to provide an interactive forum or bulletin board.

[garysanfran]

Is not, and should not be sought after as, the answer.

I so miss those days when a 6 yr. old kid could walk home from school with Child Protective Services not getting involved. My parents taught me what not to do. Most of the time I did it anyway, but with the knowledge of the danger(s) involved.

Today, we want our kids to "get out more" and leave the electronics behind. Would it be parental negligence, today, if your kid went out without a cell phone and wandered more than two blocks away?

Tragedies are a consequence of life, not always someone's error for lack of control.

[wifi]

I like the idea in Moultonboro, where they took their radar sign, put in the middle of town warning of thin ice (it should be changed to "dangerous" now) is an excellent use. More, cheaper (paper) signs should be out in all the popular entry/hangout spots to the lake. I don't regularly stop sledding to check texts or email or go on the net, only at my final destination, but I would see signs.

As far as the Weirs channel, time for a camera there, monitored by LPD/BCSO/F&G or in the summer by the MP.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by wifi

As far as the Weirs channel, time for a camera there, monitored by LPD/BCSO/F&G or in the summer by the MP. It has been the holy grail for illegal activities for too long.

Really? I don't see it, and that is a pretty broad brush to paint an entire area of the lake. Please elaborate with specific examples.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Really? I don't see it, and that is a pretty broad brush to paint an entire area of the lake. Please elaborate with specific examples.

I have edited my post, apparently, it is being taken the wrong way by some.


As far as FLL, I don't see much hope... LOL

[persistence]

Do people take / wear life jackets when travelling across ice?

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by persistence

Do people take / wear life jackets when travelling across ice?

That is a very good question ...... it's totally up to the individual.....no mention of any pfd's being worn was mentioned in the Boston Globe article......and considering that three males, ages 62, 67, and 15, all drowned in two separate incidents on Derby Day, Saturday, February 11..... it certainly seems that no flotation pfd's were worn.

USE YOUR NOODLE!

What I suggest is to use a 3"x 48" foam noodle with a 3/8" line threaded through the center hole, trimmed to correct waist belt length, probably worn on the outside of a winter coat as an el cheapo life saving, floation belt device that costs maybe 5-dollars ...... plus 2-six inch nails attached to a single light line or old shoe string used for clawing your way up and out of the water, and back to the safety of the ice.

It seems like maybe snowmobilers do not use regular pfd's because they surround one's shoulders and neck and can be too bulky and too warm to wear while riding.

So, I suggest using a home made noodle pfd belt, worn on the outside of your parka, with the 6" nails on a string loosely attached for safety on the ice. It is probably best to be wearing it before crashing through the ice as opposed to just having it with you but not wearing it.

Look.....none of the three dead drowned guys probably had any flotation.....so it sure seems like you should USE YOUR NOODLE!

[persistence]

I thought about this while reading the article. And being a boater, I've never tried a snowmobile. I liken it to riding a jet ski. I dont see much difference. I guess there are flotation suits, I googled it a bit. I have a mustang bomber that I keep on the boat. Along with more than enough PFD's.

I mean if you are going to be over deep water, why not have some sort of flotation device at the ready?

[MAXUM]

If you think about it, when you fall into cold water what's the biggest thing you have to worry about sinking or freezing to death?

If I had my choice between flotation and something that would protect me from hypothermia I'd take a wetsuit.

Speaking of that every year I am out in the water within a week of ice out putting in my dock, 3 hours in the ice cold water with a 7MM wetsuit really isn't all that bad. No it's certainly not Bermuda but sure as hell is more comfy than t-shirt, shorts and a PFD.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

If you think about it, when you fall into cold water what's the biggest thing you have to worry about sinking or freezing to death?

If I had my choice between flotation and something that would protect me from hypothermia I'd take a wetsuit.

Speaking of that every year I am out in the water within a week of ice out putting in my dock, 3 hours in the ice cold water with a 7MM wetsuit really isn't all that bad. No it's certainly not Bermuda but sure as hell is more comfy than t-shirt, shorts and a PFD.

Agreed, but bring your ice picks- the biggest issue is kicking/ pulling yourself out of the water onto the ice!

[Top-Water]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

If you think about it, when you fall into cold water what's the biggest thing you have to worry about sinking or freezing to death?

If you can float you have a chance of saving yourself.

Some cold water PFD information here.
http://www.coldwatersafety.org/PFDsCanAndCant.html

http://www.go2marine.com/category/12...kets-pfds.html

I wonder if any of the snowmobile clothing manufactures have ever thought of making (fashionable/sport-related) clothing designed to float in the event of an emergency. I spent close to thousand dollars last fall on extreme cold water fishing clothes for myself and my son. Regretfully in light of recent events I never gave it a second thought about if it would keep me afloat.

I thought that an inflatable life jacket that uses (CO2) would be a possible comfortable alternative if you wanted an extra measure of safety out on the ice. Surprisingly they are not recommended because of the way the (CO2) inflates them in cold weather.

Somewhat noteworthy is that in Pennsylvania from November 1st through April 30th while underway or at anchor on boats less than 16 feet in length or any canoe or kayak, cold weather life jacket wear is mandatory. (I realize this is about boats) but it's very much related to cold water safety.

[fatlazyless]

Last summer, the Walmart in Gilford had some very big foam noodles, about 5" diameter x 44" length, in green, blue, or red, for about $5.29 each ..... and they were good quality with high density foam .... and a 1/2" hole running down through the center for the entire 44" length.

A 5" diameter noodle will probably provide a lot more flotation than a 3" noodle ..... the formula to figure the volume of a cylinder is V = pie x radius x length ....so a 5" diameter has maybe three times the foam flotation volume of a 3" diameter.

Using ice picks makes a huge difference for getting out of the icy water, and up onto the ice.....plus they require much less effort and less energy than relying on wet gloves, hands, and wet, slippery ice so ice picks are important, and two 5", or 6" nails or small spikes work very good.

As long as you don't care too much that you may resemble the Michelin Man, here's a method. Use the 5" noodle on the outside of your coat, shortened to fit tight like a belt, as a flotation belt with a sturdy line threaded inside the center hole, and place the two spikes directly into the 5" foam belt, one on the right, one on the left, close to your hands, and ready to access.

What's the difference between the five inch noodle and the three inch noodle? It has a lot more flotation, and holds a person higher up in the water, making it easier to claw your way onto the ice.

Wearing a flotation device probably totally increases your chance of survival, because a person can survive for up to one hour in icy cold water before their body succumbs to the cold. Your hands and arms are usable for maybe 10-15 minutes before your fingers get too cold to use. Using ice picks really helps a lot....and a 5" foam noodle secured around your waist, that will rise up, under your armpits makes for excellent flotation....while you gather up your energy for the big effort(s) to climb out of the water and onto the ice......maybe repeatedly when the thin ice breaks under your weight.

What's good about this is that it is low priced, easy to wear....you just wiggle into it from either your feet up to your waist, or from your arms and head down to your waist..... and it probably works real good.(?)

So, who wants to volunteer crashing their snowmobile through the thin ice, into deep water, to see how great it works?

[robmac]

Having read the posts on this subject I get sickened that someone is attempting to make jokes about the loss of life. As a parent I feel for that young mans family and the tragic loss of life as well as the families of the others. To be making jokes about bargains on noodles why not be a little more caring and sensitive for the loss.This again is JMHO

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Last summer, the Walmart in Gilford had some very big foam noodles, about 5" diameter x 44" length, in green, blue, or red, for about $5.29 each ..... and they were good quality with high density foam .... and a 1/2" hole running down through the center for the entire 44" length.

A 5" diameter noodle will probably provide a lot more flotation than a 3" noodle ..... the formula to figure the volume of a cylinder is V = pie x radius x length ....so a 5" diameter has maybe three times the foam flotation volume of a 3" diameter.

Using ice picks makes a huge difference for getting out of the icy water, and up onto the ice.....plus they require much less effort and less energy than relying on wet gloves, hands, and wet, slippery ice so ice picks are important, and two 5", or 6" nails or small spikes work very good.

As long as you don't care too much that you may resemble the Michelin Man, here's a method. Use the 5" noodle on the outside of your coat, shortened to fit tight like a belt, as a flotation belt with a sturdy line threaded inside the center hole, and place the two spikes directly into the 5" foam belt, one on the right, one on the left, close to your hands, and ready to access.

What's the difference between the five inch noodle and the three inch noodle? It has a lot more flotation, and holds a person higher up in the water, making it easier to claw your way onto the ice.

Wearing a flotation device probably totally increases your chance of survival, because a person can survive for up to one hour in icy cold water before their body succumbs to the cold. Your hands and arms are usable for maybe 10-15 minutes before your fingers get too cold to use. Using ice picks really helps a lot....and a 5" foam noodle secured around your waist, that will rise up, under your armpits makes for excellent flotation....while you gather up your energy for the big effort(s) to climb out of the water and onto the ice......maybe repeatedly when the thin ice breaks under your weight.

What's good about this is that it is low priced, easy to wear....you just wiggle into it from either your feet up to your waist, or from your arms and head down to your waist..... and it probably works real good.(?)

So, who wants to volunteer crashing their snowmobile through the thin ice, into deep water, to see how great it works?

Did Walmart open a marijuana dispensary?

[Blue Thunder]

Since most of the time I ride across ice to get to my destination, I've had this jacket for years. Floatation is built in.

https://mustangsurvival.com//profess...nal&country=25

BT

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

Since most of the time I ride across ice to get to my destination, I've had this jacket for years. Floatation is built in.

https://mustangsurvival.com//profess...nal&country=25

BT

I also wear the mustang survival jacket when snowmobiling both over land and over frozen lakes. It is very warm better than snowmobile jacket. It is so well insulated the wind does not penetrate the material. I have tested it in the summer and it keeps my body afloat. I also have a PFD with line attached to snowmobile for the purpose to help someone or myself. Plus of course Spikes attached over my shoulders to use to pull myself up over the ice. But before I ever go out on the ice I only go where trucks have been driven.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Did Walmart open a marijuana dispensary?

Don't encourage him next thing you know we'll hear all about the medicinal qualities of rag weed which is waaaay cheaper than marijuana, plentiful, probably can be easily grown around your house and double as a million dollar hedge and can be smoked through a 50 cent 5" foot long noodle.

Obviously we are dealing with a person that is quite a few French fries short of a $1.99 happy meal. Heck I don't even think the burger, drink, or free toy were included.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Don't encourage him next thing you know we'll hear all about the medicinal qualities of rag weed which is waaaay cheaper than marijuana, plentiful, probably can be easily grown around your house and double as a million dollar hedge and can be smoked through a 50 cent 5" foot long noodle.

Obviously we are dealing with a person that is quite a few French fries short of a $1.99 happy meal. Heck I don't even think the burger, drink, or free toy were included.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. And all the while, doing it while wearing a flotation device!

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Did Walmart open a marijuana dispensary?

....no, not at Wal-Mart, no!

What the Plymouth, NH, Wal-Mart does have are $9.94 pfd's ......Exxel x2o brand, USCG approved, made in China, in blue or red, one solid color with a small amount of black graphics.....in three sizes.....child-youth-adult.....$9.94-each.....in the store....and very similar to the 18.96 orange/yellow Sporti pfd in my link above from SwimOutlet.


....at $9.94 in the Wal-Mart store.....that seems like a super deal.....for solid red and solid blue......and very usable.....child-youth-adult.....sometimes the plain, minimalist style is the best way to go!

... how's the quality?

...who knows....but, come the year 2019....these Exxel brand pfd's could maybe be made up the north country ... north of the notches ... in Littleton, Groveton, or Berlin, NH, and sell for even less than these Chinese made $9.94-models at Wal-Mart?

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Top-Water

If you can float you have a chance of saving yourself.

Some cold water PFD information here.
http://www.coldwatersafety.org/PFDsCanAndCant.html

http://www.go2marine.com/category/12...kets-pfds.html

I wonder if any of the snowmobile clothing manufactures have ever thought of making (fashionable/sport-related) clothing designed to float in the event of an emergency. I spent close to thousand dollars last fall on extreme cold water fishing clothes for myself and my son. Regretfully in light of recent events I never gave it a second thought about if it would keep me afloat.

I thought that an inflatable life jacket that uses (CO2) would be a possible comfortable alternative if you wanted an extra measure of safety out on the ice. Surprisingly they are not recommended because of the way the (CO2) inflates them in cold weather.

Somewhat noteworthy is that in Pennsylvania from November 1st through April 30th while underway or at anchor on boats less than 16 feet in length or any canoe or kayak, cold weather life jacket wear is mandatory. (I realize this is about boats) but it's very much related to cold water safety.

Interesting tid bit - when I was in the Navy working the flight deck of an aircraft carrier we had to wear vests while on deck, they had a number of features to them but essentially they had a built in inflatable bladder that had a lanyard fired CO2 cartridge to fill it should it be needed. Interestingly enough we were supposed to be replacing those on a regular basis, I seem to recall every 6 months.... I replaced mine far more often. Every time I did I'd test fire the old cartridge to see if it actually worked. The failure rate was pretty high, I'd estimate about 30% of the time nada. Thankfully they had a built in manual air tube you could blow it up if needed, that assumes you are still conscience after falling 50+ feet into the water. Thank God for the safety nets that lined the flight deck, you'd be more likely to fall into one of those than hit the water!

I would never use something like this myself... but at the same time it would not make any sense for us to be out there on deck working with a full on bulky PFD either it'd just get in the way. I gotta believe that they have a better and more reliable inflation method by now... but that was only 20 years ago so who knows.

[Onshore]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Interesting tid bit - when I was in the Navy working the flight deck of an aircraft carrier we had to wear vests while on deck, they had a number of features to them but essentially they had a built in inflatable bladder that had a lanyard fired CO2 cartridge to fill it should it be needed. Interestingly enough we were supposed to be replacing those on a regular basis, I seem to recall every 6 months.... I replaced mine far more often. Every time I did I'd test fire the old cartridge to see if it actually worked. The failure rate was pretty high, I'd estimate about 30% of the time nada. Thankfully they had a built in manual air tube you could blow it up if needed, that assumes you are still conscience after falling 50+ feet into the water. Thank God for the safety nets that lined the flight deck, you'd be more likely to fall into one of those than hit the water!

We use the lanyard fired CO2 inflated vests. Point of fact, if you don't screw the cartridge into the firing mechanism they are guaranteed not to work. Always check to make sure the cartridge is screwed in when you take vests out of a storage locker or borrow one from another boat.

Top-Water, I didn't see any information pertaining to the shortcomings of CO2 inflated vests in coldwater conditions in the two links you posted. Did I overlook that information or is there another place that you would recommend I go to for info?

Thanks.

[Top-Water]

Originally Posted by shore things

Top-Water, I didn't see any information pertaining to the shortcomings of CO2 inflated vests in coldwater conditions in the two links you posted. Did I overlook that information or is there another place that you would recommend I go to for info?

Thanks.

I seen the information about the cold water inflation problems at a couple of different places. One that stuck out was this kayaking forum in PA.

http://www.kayak-anglers.com/forum/t...d-cold-weather

Also mentioned here with little more science in the answer. A little ways down the page. I was not aware that the cold (could/would) affect the inflation that much.

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/082000c.htm

So What's the Catch?
3) Cold weather adversely affects the operation of these PFDs. While the CO2 cartridge will fully inflate the vest most of the year, in extremely cold temperatures the same amount of gas will not expand to the same volume, reducing the vest’s buoyancy.

Sorry should have maybe included these links in the earlier post.

[fatlazyless]

For $18.96, marked down from 28.00, the swimoutlet.com has an adult USCG pfd, made by Sporti, in orange/yellow, that has extra large arm-shoulder cut-outs for active use. Also has two similar smaller pfd's for kids, $16.55, and youth, $18.55.

These look like some good quality, usable pfd's, at a LOW price. Closes with a zipper, plus three strap clips.

Seems like these could be good for snowmobiling, sailing small sailboats, canoes, and maybe kayaks.

https://www.swimoutlet.com/p/sporti-...9/?color=11950


.....hmmmm....does it really have a zipper in the front?


For just $12.99, amazon.com has a somewhat similar Onyx pfd in orange/black for adults, but with smaller arm cut-outs, so probably not as useful for easy arm movement.

[Onshore]

Originally Posted by Top-Water

I seen the information about the cold water inflation problems at a couple of different places. One that stuck out was this kayaking forum in PA.

http://www.kayak-anglers.com/forum/t...d-cold-weather

Also mentioned here with little more science in the answer. A little ways down the page. I was not aware that the cold (could/would) affect the inflation that much.

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/082000c.htm

So What's the Catch?
3) Cold weather adversely affects the operation of these PFDs. While the CO2 cartridge will fully inflate the vest most of the year, in extremely cold temperatures the same amount of gas will not expand to the same volume, reducing the vest’s buoyancy.

Sorry should have maybe included these links in the earlier post.

Oh that's right, the ideal gas law... I will refrain from getting all geeky and wondering about the corresponding difference in the density of the colder water and whether that is enough to maintain equivalent buoyancy...

Thanks for the info. Putting some serious thought into whether or not the safety gear we assign folks here is what it should be...

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

... USE YOUR NOODLE!

There is no need to use ersatz safety equipment. Even new, PFD's are cheap. $10-30 and less if you buy second hand. A 'sport vest' even provides a large amount of insulation if worn under a large jacket.

[fatlazyless]

er-satz: adjective, (of a product) made or used as a substitute, typically an inferior one, for something else. "ersatz coffee"

Ersatz is not a word familiar to me, so I looked it up, and while a foam noodle belt attached to a 50' x 5/16" line may be ezsatz, it could be pretty useful. Just like a rope lasso used by a cowboy to rope a steer, with a little practice, a foam noodle belt/50' line could quickly go from an ersatz, worn pfd belt to a lasso style, tossable rescue pfd line.....by twirling it above one's head like a lasso and then letting it go, out across the ice/water to a victim, lasso style........ yee-haw! Probably, the five inch diameter noodle works best because it is more rigid, and has more flotation.

The key to making it work is to thread a line down through the noodle center hole, and fashion the noodle into a wearable, circle belt, worn on the outside of a winter coat.

[Alton Bay]

FLL, you need to think long and hard about what you post.